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Vegans: Why not vegetarianism?
Replies
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ericadcruz32 wrote: »I would disagree with the poster above that vegetarianism for ethical reasons doesn't make much sense. I think every little thing we can do as individuals is AMAZING and a step in the right direction. Imagine if everyone did just one thing instead of such a small population of us doing it all and not making a dent. I say do what you can and push yourself - learn your willpower. I have been vegetarian for 27 years and about 4 of them Vegan. 2 years ago my son (now 11) went vegan and so I am also vegan 2 weeks out of the month. I feel that is still better than consuming as much as I was before. And before I started dieting 3 months ago I ate a more normal amount those two weeks but now that I am counting calories I just cut out a lot of the dairy anyways because of the calories as well.
If it's too hard at least still do something if you can. Trust me it adds up! And it's still a marked improvement on your health than if you were doing nothing at all!
It's great that you've seen benefits of eating a plant based diet, but I'm coming off of a mostly whole foods, plant based diet that was very 'healthy' and it did nothing special for me. After a couple months I started having increased bloating and struggled to keep my weight in check. After a few months I just got burned out and am now trying something different, that's pretty much the opposite-eliminating most grains, beans etc. and adding meat, eggs and full fat dairy back in. So far I feel really good-bloating is completely gone, I've lost a few pounds etc.
There's just no one way of eating that's going to be a perfect fit for everyone, in terms of heath.10 -
Dairies & eggs are probably the biggest difference between vegetarianism and vegans. I still consume some but it was greatly reduced. In my case this was to lower my total cholesterol as much as I can. No more milk at home, only almond milk for my smoothies and recipes. I buy only egg whites, again for recipes, and occasionally some Feta. For the lunches at work, most of the cheese has been replaced by tofu and meat has been replaced by hummus. I still eat some 'high quality' meat 1-2x /week. I have done this for 4 years. I think it paid off; based on my lab results earlier this year, my doctor told me that I was among the lowest risk of coronary disease of only 4%.0
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cwolfman13 wrote: »Veganism is an ethical choice that goes well beyond diet. Vegans do not consume or use animal products or products that are tested on animals, etc....no leather or wool...certain cosmetics are off limits, etc.
I think it can be both a nutritional choice and an ethical one with varying degrees of what the person knows or is willing to consider. A friend of mine chooses to eat only plant-based foods, but still owns a leather jacket. He feels physically better eating vegan, but it doesn't disturb him that his jacket is made from animal skin.
In fact, I'd argue it is pretty challenging to be 100% vegan in the sense that you don't buy anything with animal products in it, or that has been tested on animals, or that has an impact on animals. The global supply chain is so huge that you need to spend a lot of time investigating every product you buy.
Examples of foods you might think are vegan but aren't always: beer, wine, and some fruit juices.
Examples of other things you might buy that are not vegan: clothes, shoes, linens/bedding, furniture, the upholstery in your car, medications, vitamins/supplements, cosmetics including obvious ones like red lipstick but also soaps, perfumes, sunscreens, etc.
Some vegans won't watch movies that have animals in them, won't visit the circus or zoo, and won't have pets at home. There's a whole range of veganism.4 -
I think there's also this assumption that "all vegans do this and if they don't then they're not vegan" which is simply not the truth. There's no one definition for the word or lable "vegan" and language changes, including the meanings of words and phrases. I know numerous people who will use animal products that they've bought used and/or come from farms that they trust in regards to animal husbandry.Sugaraddict4321 wrote:In fact, I'd argue it is pretty challenging to be 100% vegan in the sense that you don't buy anything with animal products in it, or that has been tested on animals, or that has an impact on animals. The global supply chain is so huge that you need to spend a lot of time investigating every product you buy.
I get that it's a give and take situation. No one can do all the things to try and save the earth and its inhabitants. That said, my buying wool products (primarily in the form of socks, raw fleece, and yarn) is likely not more negatively impactful than buying cotton (organic or conventional).4 -
I went Vegan for ethical reasons after having been Vegetarian for years and doing my research on the dairy and egg industry. It was a no-brainer for me.
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caraghnidurnin wrote: »If you’re removing meat from your diet for ethical reasons, it doesn’t make any sense to consume dairy. It is arguably the most cruel exploitation of animals, when cows are routinely artificially impregnated and then have their babies taken away days after birth so their milk can be sold. After a few cycles they are “spent” and sent to slaughter. Same with eggs. Chickens artificially inseminated, baby boy chicks are ground alive as they are a waste product, etc. So to me vegetarian doesn’t make a whole heap of sense 🤷♀️
Just a few points, Chickens are not artificially inseminated, hens lay eggs all on their own, typically 1 a day through the year, less through the Winter. They do not need a Rooster around to lay eggs, you only need a Rooster if you want live chicks, not if you want eggs.
The main cruelty thing with the chickens is that most of them are kept in "houses" and not allowed to free range.
Cows.. yes, the calves are taken away within a day of birth, and most of them, if they are bulls, are sold to make Veil. The Heifers will spend their time in little hutch's till they are old enough to join the herd and be bred the 1st time to start giving milk, they last more then a few cycles, how long they last depends on how many times a day they are milked, if they are milked 3 times a day, they get used up quicker and then yes go for slaughter.
I grew up on a farm, it's just life.
This is not to sway anyone either way, just a couple if facts, I don't eat much meat, no ethical reason, I'm just not into cooking.
I'd love to become a Vegan, only because I think if done correctly, it's the most healthy, but I don't have the gumption to learn and I have horribly fussy taste buds. And I really like my eggs and cheese....9 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »stricklee11 wrote: »Why did you choose to be vegan over being a vegetarian? Was it a gradual shift?
Veganism is an ethical choice that goes well beyond diet. Vegans do not consume or use animal products or products that are tested on animals, etc....no leather or wool...certain cosmetics are off limits, etc.
I agree with this.
I eat whole food plant based, when people ask me about what I eat because of the weight loss and I say whole food plant based, the response is “so your a vegan”.
My answer is no, as vegan is an ethical stance, with much more than a way of eating involved, and while I agree that factory farming is deplorable, I personally don’t have any issues with people eating meat, or dairy. I did it specifically for health.
This, I like the idea of being vegan, but it's only the eating part of vegan.....0 -
I skipped Vegetarian and went fully Vegan for health reasons.
I did the Paddison Programne for Rheumatoid Arthritis and cured myself. Prior to that I was a broken deformed woman, living on crutches permanently. I remember the last day I saw my Rheumatologist 5 years ago. He was looking at my latest blood tests results on a computer screen. He turned to me and announced that, after my first 2 years as a vegan, that I had cured myself.
But I really, really missed eggs!
I moved to New Zealand 3 years after that. Now I have my own healthy, happy chickens who free range all over my forresty 1/2 acre property. They lay some super large eggs, the fat healthy girls they are. Ms Cackle is my noisiest layer. Every morning, 7am on the dot, she cackles in her favourite laying spot under my bedroom window, as she lays my breakfast. I don't have a Rooster, just Rhode Island Red girls, so the neighbours don't get annoyed.
I know many vegans don't eat honey now days either, but we do. We keep 3 hives of very healthy NZ bees, with plenty of wild Meadows to keep them going. But we are lucky here, there is no Foulbrood disease in NZ (yet) so home beekeeping is easier. The honey is amazing, though we do it for the environment and pleasure.
Growing my own food in the garden is also wonderful9 -
I was a pescatarian who is transitioning to WFPB. Although I cannot vouch for the cheese (~4oz/wk) I eat, I do know the farmers of my eggs(~1/wk) and milk (~1/2c/wk).
For animal rights and environmental footprint reasons I gave up leather goods and mammal flesh abt a year ago. Prior to that I was an omnivore in the Pollan & Kingfisher mode of plants primarily for decades.
I will continue to weigh sustainability against vegan substitutes for traditional omnivore foods. For example, I am making oat milk for my morning coffee rather then almond milk, on account of monocropping of almond trees. It's bad for bees (trucked-in) and bad for water resources.
I see myself continuing to wear wool and eating honey. I know where my honey comes from. Perhaps my next challenge is know where my yarn comes from too.2 -
I was a pescatarian who is transitioning to WFPB. Although I cannot vouch for the cheese (~4oz/wk) I eat, I do know the farmers of my eggs(~1/wk) and milk (~1/2c/wk).
For animal rights and environmental footprint reasons I gave up leather goods and mammal flesh abt a year ago. Prior to that I was an omnivore in the Pollan & Kingfisher mode of plants primarily for decades.
I will continue to weigh sustainability against vegan substitutes for traditional omnivore foods. For example, I am making oat milk for my morning coffee rather then almond milk, on account of monocropping of almond trees. It's bad for bees (trucked-in) and bad for water resources.
I see myself continuing to wear wool and eating honey. I know where my honey comes from. Perhaps my next challenge is know where my yarn comes from too.1 -
I was vegetarian for about 5 years because I didn't want animals to suffer, but I was one of the many people who said things like "veganism is just too extreme", "I just love cheese" and "I could never go vegan". Then I watched some footage from dairy farms... boy chicks being ground up alive the day they are born, cows crying for their babies, calves being slaughtered...
I officially decided to go vegan when I read Scott Jurek's "Eat and Run" (he is one of the best ultra marathon trail runners of all time and vegan for decades). If he (and many other bad*** athletes like Serena Williams and Novak Djokovic) can get enough protein from a plant based diet, then so can I.
So, the answer for me is: ethical reasons. I was burying my head in the sand, thinking I was doing the right thing with vegetarianism, but I was still contributing to unnecessary animal suffering and environmental destruction.7 -
Can a vegan explain to me what vegans think is ethically wrong with honey?2
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rheddmobile wrote: »Can a vegan explain to me what vegans think is ethically wrong with honey?
It's exploitation of bees, they are artificially inseminated in commercial practices, and their emergency food is stolen, and instead they are fed a low quality substitute that has been linked to worldwide colony collapses.
From an ethical perspective, commercial beekeeping isn't all that different from the dairy industry.
https://www.pnas.org/content/110/22/8842
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rheddmobile wrote: »Can a vegan explain to me what vegans think is ethically wrong with honey?
In the beginning, when I went vegan, I'd still eat honey, because I didn't see anything wrong with it. My great grandpa was a beekeeper and I'd feel nostalgic every time I had a big, delicious spoon of honey. Then I did some research and found out that honey bees are one of the main causes for wild bees dying off at such a high rate. In beekeeping, honey bees are specifically bred to increase productivity. This selective breeding narrows the population gene pool and increases susceptibility to disease and large-scale die-offs. These diseases are then spread to the thousands of other pollinators. When you hear people say "bees are going extinct", they're talking about the bumblebees, not the honey bees. And we need those bumblebees because they are better pollinators.
Another reason is this common practice of removing all the honey from a hive and replacing it with a sugar substitute, which is significantly worse for the bees’ health since it lacks the essential micro-nutrients of honey.
Also, queen bees often have their wings clipped by beekeepers to prevent them leaving the hive to produce a new colony elsewhere, which would decrease productivity and lessen profit.13 -
I was a vegetarian 7 years due to my unhealthy addiction to dairy. I have a high history of disease in my family and watching my dad pass from heart disease and my mom have breast cancer two times led me to switch to vegan. Ethics were a partial reason, but health was the primary.4
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I went plant based because of my health, I was hit really badly with fibromyalgia about 4 years ago, not the struggle through your day kind, but the bed bound - lost the ability to speak kind. It has a massive impact on my cognitive function, and I was like someone with alzheimer's. We tried a lot of medication, some of which I'm still on, but nothing was making a dent in it, and someone suggested a vegan diet, within about 2 weeks my head started to clear up. I am by no means cured, I still can't work because of my illness, but I am significantly better than I was.
Being attached to the vegan world made me delve into some subjects that I wouldn't have before, I'm definitely a full on vegan now, but for me it's an environmental thing almost more than the animals. So yeah, came for the health benefits, sticking with the ethics.2 -
I spent three years in vegetarian yoga communities, had lots of vegan friends, and was exposed to a lot of education about veganism. I would attribute any health benefits I may have received during this time to my active lifestyle, rather than not eating animal products.
While I do believe it is ethically superior to not exploit animals, veg* was not for me. My compromise is to buy animal products that were raised more humanely than conventional practices. My vegan friends would consider this a cop-out, but it's the best I can do at this time.3 -
RunsWithDogsWI wrote: »livv_taberr wrote: »Cholesterol is dangerous because it clogs the arteries with fatty buildup and can lead to a heart attack or stroke, and that’s not good!
I'm not trying to negate your entire viewpoint here, but this is false information. All recent peer-reviewed research has pretty much unanimously shown that LDL cholesterol is NOT a causative factor in heart disease. Cholesterol is a basic building block that our bodies use to create active compounds, such as Vitamin D and our hormones. If you want to understand why cholesterol has been demonized for so many years, read up on the United States sugar producers lobby.
I'm reeeeaaaally skeptical of your claim that "calcium neutralizes acids" and that the calcium we consume from milk is "all used up" by neutralizing acids. This sounds like woo without some kind of peer-reviewed study backing it up.
(Source: I have taken graduate-level human & animal nutrition classes. Am currently in grad school to become a medical professional and work full-time in biological sciences.)
Interesting take on the state of the literature for LDL, particularly given how statins still remain common treatment to reduce cholesterol as a preventative.
I think if one wants to get into a nuanced discussion of the current pathology, I believe for atherosclerosis, LDL or perhaps VLDL is necessary but not purely sufficient condition. That they attach to pockets of inflamed vascular tissue that happens as they become stiff.
I don't think the sugar industry really has the lobbying power that they've pushed big Pharma into making statins. I also think it is self-defeating reasons to cast those aspersions - if we're looking at motives, the people most broadly attacking sugar are people promoting low-carb / keto diets as cures for the obesity problem and its knock-on effects.
Calcium from bone is definitely a buffering mechanism in controlling blood PH. It is correct though that we don't use up our calcium in doing so. That part is kind of the acid-ash hypothesis that spawned alkaline diets but is pretty strongly out of line with observations of diets versus bone health.4 -
I'm vegetarian and for me that's good enough. If I want to become vegan I also can't buy leather shoes while it's best to buy leather shoes for my foot issues. And due an other health condition I tend to be feeling cold a lot during winter and wool keeps me warm better. I became a vegetarian due health benefits and all else is a plus.
Also I noticed that being vegan used to be a trend among YouTubers. It annoyed me because they kept promoting it and such but then in the next vlog you saw them buying a Gucci leather bag or the latest sneakers which are made out of leather.1 -
sakurablossoms82 wrote: »I'm vegetarian and for me that's good enough. If I want to become vegan I also can't buy leather shoes while it's best to buy leather shoes for my foot issues. And due an other health condition I tend to be feeling cold a lot during winter and wool keeps me warm better. I became a vegetarian due health benefits and all else is a plus.
Also I noticed that being vegan used to be a trend among YouTubers. It annoyed me because they kept promoting it and such but then in the next vlog you saw them buying a Gucci leather bag or the latest sneakers which are made out of leather.
Of all the reasons not to be vegan, I think "I noticed a vegan on YouTube doing it wrong" has got to be one of the weakest.
Veganism is about your ethical position on animal exploitation, not about YouTubers. If you object to animal exploitation, no YouTuber on earth is going to make you change your mind and decide you're okay with it.5
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