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Is Over-Training a myth?
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It's real. Rhabdomyolysis is a real thing. Overtraining can also result in tendonitis and bursitis.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yup bicipital tendinitis is when I learned it was a very real thing and that my body needed recovery time between sessions. I really wish I wasn't the type to always learn these lessons the hard way.1 -
CipherZero wrote: »The mythical part is people below elite levels aren't over-training, they're under-recovered.
i'm always so sorry for getting mixed into these threads . . . but for general-application purposes does the distinction matter? assuming an olympian and an ordinary gym-goer can both reach a state where what they're doing is unproductive and heading towards being detrimental, i mean. is there a reason other than suppressing pretentiousness why someone like me can't say 'overtrained' and is supposed to say 'under-rested' instead?
truly curious. i'm not technical enough about anything exercise physiology to know the answer already.
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Definitely not a myth. My achilles can testify to that. It's called an overuse injury for a reason.2
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Definitely not a myth. My achilles can testify to that. It's called an overuse injury for a reason.
That's not the same thing. "Blackberry thumb" is an overuse injury. Am I overtraining if I'm powertexting for a few days on end?0 -
canadianlbs wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »The mythical part is people below elite levels aren't over-training, they're under-recovered.
i'm always so sorry for getting mixed into these threads . . . but for general-application purposes does the distinction matter? assuming an olympian and an ordinary gym-goer can both reach a state where what they're doing is unproductive and heading towards being detrimental, i mean. is there a reason other than suppressing pretentiousness why someone like me can't say 'overtrained' and is supposed to say 'under-rested' instead?
truly curious. i'm not technical enough about anything exercise physiology to know the answer already.
obligatory disclaimer: Not a PT, doc, or medical professional.
The key is "what they're doing is unproductive and heading towards being detrimental" covers an enormous swath of poor behaviors. Over-training certainly is part of that set, but so it degrading form on ever-heavier lifts, not allowing recovery between workouts, over-use of a single joint (causing tendinitis) or muscle (causing muscle belly tears), etc.
Using a broad brush, what a lot of what people call overtraining is simply a run of bad sessions. Recovery is easy to compromise with a few bad night's sleep, drugs (legal and otherwise), alcohol, and other stressors. Under-recovery is relatively quick to bounce back with a decent night sleep or three. I've been under-recovered to the point of taking a week off, and being able to hit the same weights immediately on going back.
Over-training fries the central nervous system and can take a month or more to recover from the constant overworking of large muscle groups and chronic CNS overloads.1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Definitely not a myth. My achilles can testify to that. It's called an overuse injury for a reason.
That's not the same thing. "Blackberry thumb" is an overuse injury. Am I overtraining if I'm powertexting for a few days on end?
No, you would be "overtexting". If training leads to an overuse injury it's "overtraining" by definition, as in putting various systems (including ligaments) through more stress than they could handle via exercising too much and not resting enough. Of course I may be wrong, I have not looked into definitions, but that's how I understand it.1 -
RAD_Fitness wrote: »Just curious on what people's thoughts are on whether or not over-training is a myth or a real thing.
You can over train if you don't recover properly. There is a device called "iThlete" that can help manage recovery. As long as you are fully recovered you can train. Pool workout, foam roll, massage, proper diet. Recovery is equally as important as training. Professional athletes literally train and practice every day and yet they have to perform at the highest level in a game. Hence why there higher percentages of them
Getting non contact injuries.0 -
CipherZero wrote: »The key is "what they're doing is unproductive and heading towards being detrimental" covers an enormous swath of poor behaviors.
sure, but i was assuming all the behavioural factors were already eliminated from the discussion. i think you've answered my question though: if i got you correctly you're saying that you're not overtrained in the true, technical sense unless your software has gone on the fritz along with whichever parts of your hardware are feeling the strain.Recovery is easy to compromise with a few bad night's sleep, drugs (legal and otherwise), alcohol, and other stressors.
fwiw i see three distinctions here, not just two. there's 'malingerers' (to use the word some of the more draconian Thou Shalt Work Out fanatics would use for them, there's ordinary folks who are not elite pros but still legitimately need to step away from the weights for a little while . . . and there's the pros.
i guess my selective focus is on: if someone belongs to the middle group, i can't see what is served except pedantry by jumping on the case of someone who says 'overtrained' when it's time for them to sit out for a while. not that there's anything wrong with pedantry
it's just useful to know whether the impetus behind the pedantry is technical precision, a form of social correctiveness, or something else. 0 -
canadianlbs wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »The key is "what they're doing is unproductive and heading towards being detrimental" covers an enormous swath of poor behaviors.
sure, but i was assuming all the behavioural factors were already eliminated from the discussion. i think you've answered my question though: if i got you correctly you're saying that you're not overtrained in the true, technical sense unless your software has gone on the fritz along with whichever parts of your hardware are feeling the strain.Recovery is easy to compromise with a few bad night's sleep, drugs (legal and otherwise), alcohol, and other stressors.
fwiw i see three distinctions here, not just two. there's 'malingerers' (to use the word some of the more draconian Thou Shalt Work Out fanatics would use for them, there's ordinary folks who are not elite pros but still legitimately need to step away from the weights for a little while . . . and there's the pros.
i guess my selective focus is on: if someone belongs to the middle group, i can't see what is served except pedantry by jumping on the case of someone who says 'overtrained' when it's time for them to sit out for a while. not that there's anything wrong with pedantry it's just useful to know whether the impetus behind the pedantry is technical precision, a form of social correctiveness, or something else.
This definition tends to become part of the discussion because - especially for suspected cases of your "malingerers" or "middle group" - one has to clarify what they (or sometimes another discussion participant) mean by "overtraining", when the word comes up.
One needs further background info in order to give advice, in most cases. What's the experience level, base level of fitness, current volume & specific current routine, etc. Sooner or later, the pedantry is often absolutely on topic: "No, you are not overtrained. The technical definition of overtrained is ..... You have an overuse injury. Here's what to do ...." (or whatever).
The pedantry is part of the education process. The term has a technical meaning. Often-misused terms result in more of this kind of pedantry. Fuzzy use of terms results in miscommunication, unnecessary argument, or bad advice. If you don't believe me, read almost any thread around here about HIIT, CICO, . . . .
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If you don't believe me, read almost any thread around here about HIIT, CICO, . . . .
on a weekend???? not bloody likely. yeah, i get it. it's like hearing the generic term 'arthritis' and saying 'okay, osteo or rheumatoid? or neither?' it matters because they aren't necessarily dealt with in the same ways.
in the spirit of constructive pedantry though, 'overuse injury' is in itself not directly cognate to 'under-recovered' either. you can feel too gassed to go - and be legitimate about it - without having any specific body part that you've hurt.
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canadianlbs wrote: »If you don't believe me, read almost any thread around here about HIIT, CICO, . . . .
on a weekend???? not bloody likely. yeah, i get it. it's like hearing the generic term 'arthritis' and saying 'okay, osteo or rheumatoid? or neither?' it matters because they aren't necessarily dealt with in the same ways.
in the spirit of constructive pedantry though, 'overuse injury' is in itself not directly cognate to 'under-recovered' either. you can feel too gassed to go - and be legitimate about it - without having any specific body part that you've hurt.
Sure. I just casually used one example that people sometimes mean when they use the term "overtraining" loosely - probably one of the most remote from the technical definition, in fact - which was a bad communication strategy. Probably should've used an overtired kind of example, or cumulative hard training impact that isn't strictly overtraining.
Like you said - it's Sunday. Besides, it's my rest day. I'm just not working that hard. My bad.
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This is an interesting thread. Can someone help me understand what "frying your nervous system" or *the other phrases used to signify CNS maladaptation/CNS malfunction/CNS fatigue* mean? I keep seeing people reference that phenomenon and I don't know what physiological event they mean.
If this is common knowledge, and you're annoyed that I asked the question, please be kind. I'm simply trying to learn.1 -
This is an interesting thread. Can someone help me understand what "frying your nervous system" or *the other phrases used to signify CNS maladaptation/CNS malfunction/CNS fatigue* mean? I keep seeing people reference that phenomenon and I don't know what physiological event they mean.
If this is common knowledge, and you're annoyed that I asked the question, please be kind. I'm simply trying to learn.
An example might be helpful.
I'm pulling heavy (to me) deadlifts and I do a three repetition max - in other words, I do a weight heavy enough that I can only lift it off the platform three times. Despite resting ten minutes, which should be long enough to refill glycogen and ATP stores in the muscles for more work, I simply can't pull another rep that session. The musculature is fine - and I've proven that by doing infamous New England snow shoveling soon after - but I can't get enough CNS fibers firing to move the barbell off the platform.2 -
CipherZero wrote: »This is an interesting thread. Can someone help me understand what "frying your nervous system" or *the other phrases used to signify CNS maladaptation/CNS malfunction/CNS fatigue* mean? I keep seeing people reference that phenomenon and I don't know what physiological event they mean.
If this is common knowledge, and you're annoyed that I asked the question, please be kind. I'm simply trying to learn.
An example might be helpful.
I'm pulling heavy (to me) deadlifts and I do a three repetition max - in other words, I do a weight heavy enough that I can only lift it off the platform three times. Despite resting ten minutes, which should be long enough to refill glycogen and ATP stores in the muscles for more work, I simply can't pull another rep that session. The musculature is fine - and I've proven that by doing infamous New England snow shoveling soon after - but I can't get enough CNS fibers firing to move the barbell off the platform.
That helps, thank you. I appreciate it!
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Definitely not a myth. My achilles can testify to that. It's called an overuse injury for a reason.
That's not the same thing. "Blackberry thumb" is an overuse injury. Am I overtraining if I'm powertexting for a few days on end?
Depends. Were you training? If this was to get ready for a texting race, you can try to make an argument that it's over training. If it wasn't training, then it's not over training.1 -
All, overtraining is a thing. For the majority of lockdown, I used bodyweight and light dumbbells (up to 20lb ea). And there were a number of sessions when I over-reached, did not recover, and ended up over-trained. Just a reminder to all doing BW, it is VERY easy to overdo it on pushups, pull-ups,etc.1
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All, overtraining is a thing. For the majority of lockdown, I used bodyweight and light dumbbells (up to 20lb ea). And there were a number of sessions when I over-reached, did not recover, and ended up over-trained. Just a reminder to all doing BW, it is VERY easy to overdo it on pushups, pull-ups,etc.
This thread died of natural causes three years ago.2 -
I don't think I would've torn a bicep tendon and suffer other injuries if I got more rest and trained less frequently. I pretty much lifted heavy weights for years never taking a day off while having a physical job and low body fat on top of that.
In my case "overtraining" led to injuries, that's bad enough.
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