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Vegan Milk

MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Member Posts: 2,121 Member Member Posts: 2,121 Member
Perfect Day, a startup that I've been following out of curiosity more than anything else (and I know a few of the engineers involved), now has Vegan products, including Ice Cream, out in stores.

Basically, this company, through fermentation methods that have existed for years, has grown milk proteins in a lab that are lactose free and animal cruelty free (they just needed some dairy DNA to start). So no veal, no cruelty of dairy farms, but this is supposed to taste identical to real dairy.

They are out in stores already as "Brave Robot" ice cream. Just wondering if vegans on here would get on board with that or still stick with plant based foods. My wife can't do cow dairy, even if it's lactose free, so I'll likely stick to the non-dairy versions.

Have no idea how expensive it is yet.
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Replies

  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 24,341 Member Member Posts: 24,341 Member
    At this point, I have substitutes that meet my needs so I probably wouldn't switch to buying it myself.

    If I was out at a restaurant and there was an appealing looking dish that used it, I would consider ordering it once I'd read more about it to understand the potential safety implications (not saying there are any, just that I haven't read about it yet). I don't have an ethical objection to lab-created milk.

    I read about the potential for this a few years ago and I'm surprised it's already to market. Very interesting stuff.
  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Member Posts: 2,121 Member Member Posts: 2,121 Member
    At this point, I have substitutes that meet my needs so I probably wouldn't switch to buying it myself.

    If I was out at a restaurant and there was an appealing looking dish that used it, I would consider ordering it once I'd read more about it to understand the potential safety implications (not saying there are any, just that I haven't read about it yet). I don't have an ethical objection to lab-created milk.

    I read about the potential for this a few years ago and I'm surprised it's already to market. Very interesting stuff.

    I believe I read they are to Series C funding (which is for production scale funding, which typically means proof of concept and taste are there). I'm a bit surprised too that they are to market this soon but the Series C funding was like $200M, so they have a lot of investments made into it.

    It's a large gamble. That's why I was curious to hear from some vegans. My daughter doesn't do dairy (for the same ethical reasons as most vegans), but I haven't had a chance to ask her.

    No clue what it costs. I would bet it's expensive, like $10 a pint expensive.

    Edit -- I found an article on TechCrunch that it's $5.99. I'm surprised it's that cheap. I live in Tucson and under their "finder" online, it said my local Albertson's already have it. I'll have to check that out. I'm with you. Not sure I would try it from a store but it is interesting.
    edited September 11
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 24,341 Member Member Posts: 24,341 Member
    At this point, I have substitutes that meet my needs so I probably wouldn't switch to buying it myself.

    If I was out at a restaurant and there was an appealing looking dish that used it, I would consider ordering it once I'd read more about it to understand the potential safety implications (not saying there are any, just that I haven't read about it yet). I don't have an ethical objection to lab-created milk.

    I read about the potential for this a few years ago and I'm surprised it's already to market. Very interesting stuff.

    I believe I read they are to Series C funding (which is for production scale funding, which typically means proof of concept and taste are there). I'm a bit surprised too that they are to market this soon but the Series C funding was like $200M, so they have a lot of investments made into it.

    It's a large gamble. That's why I was curious to hear from some vegans. My daughter doesn't do dairy (for the same ethical reasons as most vegans), but I haven't had a chance to ask her.

    No clue what it costs. I would bet it's expensive, like $10 a pint expensive.

    Edit -- I found an article on TechCrunch that it's $5.99. I'm surprised it's that cheap. I live in Tucson and under their "finder" online, it said my local Albertson's already have it. I'll have to check that out. I'm with you. Not sure I would try it from a store but it is interesting.

    If that $5.99 is the actual price, that's much lower than what I would expect. I would have guessed at least $10, like you did.

    I feel like the target market here may not actually be vegans, but people who are open to replacing some milk (sort of like how the Impossible Burger market *includes* vegans, but is going to rely on curious non-vegans in order to actually make money). As you of course know from your own life, most of us who have replaced dairy for health or ethical reasons already have substitutes that are easy to find and fall into our preferred price range. But I'm always interested to see where the technology is going.

    (If they make a good blue cheese, this will be a completely different story -- I haven't found a good vegan one yet!).
    edited September 11
  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Member Posts: 2,121 Member Member Posts: 2,121 Member
    @janejellyroll -- I can totally relate to the blue cheese thing. I promised my wife I wouldn't eat cow dairy when she couldn't, so I went cold turkey for her. After four years of either of us not eating any (at all), we went back to limited goat and sheep cheeses. When I found out Roquefort was actually sheep, I nearly wept!

    There is a cheesemaker out there that has a book on how to make your own Vegan Blue, because I looked into it. He has a blog and it looks brilliant.

    This guy -- it looks like a lot of work, but I was certainly considering it for a while.

    https://fullofplants.com/vegan-blue-cheese/
  • nooshi713nooshi713 Member Posts: 4,257 Member Member Posts: 4,257 Member
    I will definitely buy these products because I stopped eating dairy for ethical reasons, not health ones. If no cows are being harmed, then I will support it.
    edited September 12
  • FuzzipegFuzzipeg Member Posts: 2,007 Member Member Posts: 2,007 Member
    Reading the company is/was looking for dairy DNA, was a red flag to me on an ethical level how on earth can they call the product Vegan- to me that equals no animal input at any stage ever. Some poor animal somewhere will have had the initial donation taken from them, they are not consulted "its just what happens to them in the world of farming". The process screams, Over processing of foods, but any none dairy milk by its nature is processed, possibly even overly processed. I hope to goodness this product does not cross the Atlantic to get here.

    I avoid bovine dairy because of the casein content, I react to t4 casein dominant in bovine herds. There are some exceptions where over history a herd has been living in isolation, cut off from other herds, thinking Guernsey cattle as we know them here. Casein accreditation for A2 or T2 milks is by testing. Sheep and Goat dairy is type 2 casein dominant naturally which aligns with human milk and is more easily digested by many. Types 3 and 4 are generally less problematic, type 1 casein is present in all milk but to a much lesser extent. I needed to understand the issue when it was identified in me.

    Why, Oh why, do so many systems only recognise Lactose as "the only" dairy issue when it is the sugar in bovine milk rather than casein which are the proteins. In many other dietary circumstances its the type of protein which cause problems.
  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Member Posts: 2,121 Member Member Posts: 2,121 Member
    Fuzzipeg wrote: »
    Reading the company is/was looking for dairy DNA, was a red flag to me on an ethical level how on earth can they call the product Vegan- to me that equals no animal input at any stage ever. Some poor animal somewhere will have had the initial donation taken from them, they are not consulted "its just what happens to them in the world of farming". The process screams, Over processing of foods, but any none dairy milk by its nature is processed, possibly even overly processed. I hope to goodness this product does not cross the Atlantic to get here.

    I avoid bovine dairy because of the casein content, I react to t4 casein dominant in bovine herds. There are some exceptions where over history a herd has been living in isolation, cut off from other herds, thinking Guernsey cattle as we know them here. Casein accreditation for A2 or T2 milks is by testing. Sheep and Goat dairy is type 2 casein dominant naturally which aligns with human milk and is more easily digested by many. Types 3 and 4 are generally less problematic, type 1 casein is present in all milk but to a much lesser extent. I needed to understand the issue when it was identified in me.

    Why, Oh why, do so many systems only recognise Lactose as "the only" dairy issue when it is the sugar in bovine milk rather than casein which are the proteins. In many other dietary circumstances its the type of protein which cause problems.

    I suppose they are looking more at the fact that you are removing at least two cruel things (that I know of) -- the captivity of cows and the killing of males for veal. To me, it's an improvement for sure.

    My wife can't do lactose free as easily as A2/A2 dairy either. I was actually hoping they would manufacture A2/A2 milk proteins. Might be something in the future they do, who knows.

    It's also an improvement in terms of sustainability. Less water, less resources. Pure fermentation.
  • FuzzipegFuzzipeg Member Posts: 2,007 Member Member Posts: 2,007 Member
    Totally agree on the veal issue.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 24,341 Member Member Posts: 24,341 Member
    @janejellyroll -- I can totally relate to the blue cheese thing. I promised my wife I wouldn't eat cow dairy when she couldn't, so I went cold turkey for her. After four years of either of us not eating any (at all), we went back to limited goat and sheep cheeses. When I found out Roquefort was actually sheep, I nearly wept!

    There is a cheesemaker out there that has a book on how to make your own Vegan Blue, because I looked into it. He has a blog and it looks brilliant.

    This guy -- it looks like a lot of work, but I was certainly considering it for a while.

    https://fullofplants.com/vegan-blue-cheese/

    I think I'm going to try this. I've made some vegan cheese before, but nothing this complicated.
  • mtaratootmtaratoot Member Posts: 4,015 Member Member Posts: 4,015 Member
    Fuzzipeg wrote: »
    Reading the company is/was looking for dairy DNA, was a red flag to me on an ethical level how on earth can they call the product Vegan- to me that equals no animal input at any stage ever. Some poor animal somewhere will have had the initial donation taken from them, they are not consulted "its just what happens to them in the world of farming". The process screams, Over processing of foods, but any none dairy milk by its nature is processed, possibly even overly processed. I hope to goodness this product does not cross the Atlantic to get here.

    I avoid bovine dairy because of the casein content, I react to t4 casein dominant in bovine herds. There are some exceptions where over history a herd has been living in isolation, cut off from other herds, thinking Guernsey cattle as we know them here. Casein accreditation for A2 or T2 milks is by testing. Sheep and Goat dairy is type 2 casein dominant naturally which aligns with human milk and is more easily digested by many. Types 3 and 4 are generally less problematic, type 1 casein is present in all milk but to a much lesser extent. I needed to understand the issue when it was identified in me.

    Why, Oh why, do so many systems only recognise Lactose as "the only" dairy issue when it is the sugar in bovine milk rather than casein which are the proteins. In many other dietary circumstances its the type of protein which cause problems.

    "No animal input at any stage ever" would eliminate a number of plant foods as well (insects are used for pollination, animal products are included in many fertilizers). I'm not saying I don't understand the position of rejecting this particular use of animal DNA as non-vegan, I just don't think saying veganism is about "no animal input at any stage ever" is something that we can currently practice unless we're in a very rare and fortunate situation.

    This is very insightful, and I'm surprised I never thought about it. Vegans often avoid honey because of how it's produced. It's those same bees that make almond farming possible. Of course almond honey isn't marketed because it's so bitter. The list of plant foods that require honeybees is pretty long. To be sure, I'm a fan of providing better habitat for native pollinators, like mason bees, but I'm not sure they can complete the task. I know they could pollenate fruit trees like apples, pears, and persimmons, and maybe some bush fruits like blueberries. I see LOTS of honeybees on my raspberries, marionberries, squash, chile plants, cucumbers, tomatoes, grapes, and so much more. I had never considered a vegan might try to avoid plants pollenated by honeybees. That would be a huge limitation. I also never even thought about using manure as fertilizer being an issue.

    Wow.

    Thanks for that enlightening thought.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 24,341 Member Member Posts: 24,341 Member
    mtaratoot wrote: »
    Fuzzipeg wrote: »
    Reading the company is/was looking for dairy DNA, was a red flag to me on an ethical level how on earth can they call the product Vegan- to me that equals no animal input at any stage ever. Some poor animal somewhere will have had the initial donation taken from them, they are not consulted "its just what happens to them in the world of farming". The process screams, Over processing of foods, but any none dairy milk by its nature is processed, possibly even overly processed. I hope to goodness this product does not cross the Atlantic to get here.

    I avoid bovine dairy because of the casein content, I react to t4 casein dominant in bovine herds. There are some exceptions where over history a herd has been living in isolation, cut off from other herds, thinking Guernsey cattle as we know them here. Casein accreditation for A2 or T2 milks is by testing. Sheep and Goat dairy is type 2 casein dominant naturally which aligns with human milk and is more easily digested by many. Types 3 and 4 are generally less problematic, type 1 casein is present in all milk but to a much lesser extent. I needed to understand the issue when it was identified in me.

    Why, Oh why, do so many systems only recognise Lactose as "the only" dairy issue when it is the sugar in bovine milk rather than casein which are the proteins. In many other dietary circumstances its the type of protein which cause problems.

    "No animal input at any stage ever" would eliminate a number of plant foods as well (insects are used for pollination, animal products are included in many fertilizers). I'm not saying I don't understand the position of rejecting this particular use of animal DNA as non-vegan, I just don't think saying veganism is about "no animal input at any stage ever" is something that we can currently practice unless we're in a very rare and fortunate situation.

    This is very insightful, and I'm surprised I never thought about it. Vegans often avoid honey because of how it's produced. It's those same bees that make almond farming possible. Of course almond honey isn't marketed because it's so bitter. The list of plant foods that require honeybees is pretty long. To be sure, I'm a fan of providing better habitat for native pollinators, like mason bees, but I'm not sure they can complete the task. I know they could pollenate fruit trees like apples, pears, and persimmons, and maybe some bush fruits like blueberries. I see LOTS of honeybees on my raspberries, marionberries, squash, chile plants, cucumbers, tomatoes, grapes, and so much more. I had never considered a vegan might try to avoid plants pollenated by honeybees. That would be a huge limitation. I also never even thought about using manure as fertilizer being an issue.

    Wow.

    Thanks for that enlightening thought.

    I want to clarify: I don't believe there are any vegans who try to avoid plants pollinated by honeybees, I was using that as an example of how I don't think the "no animal input at any stage ever" is a useful way to implement veganism.

    I think one can make an ethical case against cow DNA-derived dairy without having to adopt the "no animal input at any stage every" rule. I also think it's possible to make a case that cow DNA-derived dairy could be part of ethical veganism.

    There is such a thing as "veganic" agriculture, but it is still in early stages and I don't think it would possible for most vegans to meet their calorie/dietary variety needs just eating food produced by this method. I do support those who are trying to find more widely sustainable ways to do this though.

    In terms of veganism, I do think there are things that are absolutely non-vegan and things that are absolutely vegan. And then I think there are a lot of things that sincere and thoughtful vegans can disagree on and while I've certainly had fun in the past delving into the fights over these things, I'm less convinced now that it's very helpful to anyone except as a way to practice how to define and articulate a vegan ethics. So I would respect someone who decided never to eat cow DNA-derived dairy as an expression of their veganism, while not necessarily sharing that position.

    As a side note, I do think it will be important -- as these types of foods proliferate -- that we have some kind of pool of common terms to describe what is involved in the production of them. For example, someone who is avoiding dairy products for reasons of health may now be buying products marked "vegan" because it's a shorthand way to know they don't contain dairy. But if in the future we have products like this or lab-grown meat, we'll need a way to describe them so people who want to ethically avoid the exploitation of animals can identify them, but those who are avoiding them because of pure concerns over consuming them (that is, a non-ethical objection) can still avoid them. I'll be really curious to see how labeling evolves over this.

  • mtaratootmtaratoot Member Posts: 4,015 Member Member Posts: 4,015 Member
    I want to clarify: I don't believe there are any vegans who try to avoid plants pollinated by honeybees, I was using that as an example of how I don't think the "no animal input at any stage ever" is a useful way to implement veganism.

    Oh, no need to clarify. I got what you wrote. It's just I had never even CONSIDERED the idea. I know when I considered veganism (I didn't eat meat for about 30 years but never pushed over to veganism), I wasn't so sure that I would avoid honey. Or yeast, since fungus is more closely related to animals than plants.

    In terms of veganism, I do think there are things that are absolutely non-vegan and things that are absolutely vegan. And then I think there are a lot of things that sincere and thoughtful vegans can disagree on and while I've certainly had fun in the past delving into the fights over these things, I'm less convinced now that it's very helpful to anyone except as a way to practice how to define and articulate a vegan ethics. So I would respect someone who decided never to eat cow DNA-derived dairy as an expression of their veganism, while not necessarily sharing that position.

    As a side note, I do think it will be important -- as these types of foods proliferate -- that we have some kind of pool of common terms to describe what is involved in the production of them. For example, someone who is avoiding dairy products for reasons of health may now be buying products marked "vegan" because it's a shorthand way to know they don't contain dairy. But if in the future we have products like this or lab-grown meat, we'll need a way to describe them so people who want to ethically avoid the exploitation of animals can identify them, but those who are avoiding them because of pure concerns over consuming them (that is, a non-ethical objection) can still avoid them. I'll be really curious to see how labeling evolves over this.

    Thank you again for this insight. I pretty much agree with what you write here. It will indeed be interesting to watch. I remember thinking it was very odd that some Rabbis ruled that a tomato with pig genes would be kosher because it was so far removed from a pig. Then again, lots of Jews who sort of keep kosher eat pork eggrolls with a similar justification.

  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 24,341 Member Member Posts: 24,341 Member
    mtaratoot wrote: »
    I want to clarify: I don't believe there are any vegans who try to avoid plants pollinated by honeybees, I was using that as an example of how I don't think the "no animal input at any stage ever" is a useful way to implement veganism.

    Oh, no need to clarify. I got what you wrote. It's just I had never even CONSIDERED the idea. I know when I considered veganism (I didn't eat meat for about 30 years but never pushed over to veganism), I wasn't so sure that I would avoid honey. Or yeast, since fungus is more closely related to animals than plants.

    In terms of veganism, I do think there are things that are absolutely non-vegan and things that are absolutely vegan. And then I think there are a lot of things that sincere and thoughtful vegans can disagree on and while I've certainly had fun in the past delving into the fights over these things, I'm less convinced now that it's very helpful to anyone except as a way to practice how to define and articulate a vegan ethics. So I would respect someone who decided never to eat cow DNA-derived dairy as an expression of their veganism, while not necessarily sharing that position.

    As a side note, I do think it will be important -- as these types of foods proliferate -- that we have some kind of pool of common terms to describe what is involved in the production of them. For example, someone who is avoiding dairy products for reasons of health may now be buying products marked "vegan" because it's a shorthand way to know they don't contain dairy. But if in the future we have products like this or lab-grown meat, we'll need a way to describe them so people who want to ethically avoid the exploitation of animals can identify them, but those who are avoiding them because of pure concerns over consuming them (that is, a non-ethical objection) can still avoid them. I'll be really curious to see how labeling evolves over this.

    Thank you again for this insight. I pretty much agree with what you write here. It will indeed be interesting to watch. I remember thinking it was very odd that some Rabbis ruled that a tomato with pig genes would be kosher because it was so far removed from a pig. Then again, lots of Jews who sort of keep kosher eat pork eggrolls with a similar justification.

    Oh wow, I'd never heard that about the tomato with pig genes and the discussion about whether or not it was kosher. That's interesting. I think it gets back to the same root issue, how far removed does something have to be before it's removed "enough."

    So in a sense, it's the same conversation we're already having -- as vegans -- about things like thrift store leather/wool, Impossible foods doing initial testing on rats, sugar filtered through bone char, etc.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,525 Member Member Posts: 8,525 Member
    mtaratoot wrote: »
    I want to clarify: I don't believe there are any vegans who try to avoid plants pollinated by honeybees, I was using that as an example of how I don't think the "no animal input at any stage ever" is a useful way to implement veganism.

    Oh, no need to clarify. I got what you wrote. It's just I had never even CONSIDERED the idea. I know when I considered veganism (I didn't eat meat for about 30 years but never pushed over to veganism), I wasn't so sure that I would avoid honey. Or yeast, since fungus is more closely related to animals than plants.

    In terms of veganism, I do think there are things that are absolutely non-vegan and things that are absolutely vegan. And then I think there are a lot of things that sincere and thoughtful vegans can disagree on and while I've certainly had fun in the past delving into the fights over these things, I'm less convinced now that it's very helpful to anyone except as a way to practice how to define and articulate a vegan ethics. So I would respect someone who decided never to eat cow DNA-derived dairy as an expression of their veganism, while not necessarily sharing that position.

    As a side note, I do think it will be important -- as these types of foods proliferate -- that we have some kind of pool of common terms to describe what is involved in the production of them. For example, someone who is avoiding dairy products for reasons of health may now be buying products marked "vegan" because it's a shorthand way to know they don't contain dairy. But if in the future we have products like this or lab-grown meat, we'll need a way to describe them so people who want to ethically avoid the exploitation of animals can identify them, but those who are avoiding them because of pure concerns over consuming them (that is, a non-ethical objection) can still avoid them. I'll be really curious to see how labeling evolves over this.

    Thank you again for this insight. I pretty much agree with what you write here. It will indeed be interesting to watch. I remember thinking it was very odd that some Rabbis ruled that a tomato with pig genes would be kosher because it was so far removed from a pig. Then again, lots of Jews who sort of keep kosher eat pork eggrolls with a similar justification.

    Oh wow, I'd never heard that about the tomato with pig genes and the discussion about whether or not it was kosher. That's interesting. I think it gets back to the same root issue, how far removed does something have to be before it's removed "enough."

    So in a sense, it's the same conversation we're already having -- as vegans -- about things like thrift store leather/wool, Impossible foods doing initial testing on rats, sugar filtered through bone char, etc.

    Are there tomatoes with pig genes, or was that just a hypothetical?

    Also, if a vegan were to adopt a "no animal input at any stage" philosophy, would that mean not eating food planted, tended, harvested, processed, or packaged by non-vegans, since the energy they are putting into the production of food came from the exploitation of animals?
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 24,341 Member Member Posts: 24,341 Member
    mtaratoot wrote: »
    I want to clarify: I don't believe there are any vegans who try to avoid plants pollinated by honeybees, I was using that as an example of how I don't think the "no animal input at any stage ever" is a useful way to implement veganism.

    Oh, no need to clarify. I got what you wrote. It's just I had never even CONSIDERED the idea. I know when I considered veganism (I didn't eat meat for about 30 years but never pushed over to veganism), I wasn't so sure that I would avoid honey. Or yeast, since fungus is more closely related to animals than plants.

    In terms of veganism, I do think there are things that are absolutely non-vegan and things that are absolutely vegan. And then I think there are a lot of things that sincere and thoughtful vegans can disagree on and while I've certainly had fun in the past delving into the fights over these things, I'm less convinced now that it's very helpful to anyone except as a way to practice how to define and articulate a vegan ethics. So I would respect someone who decided never to eat cow DNA-derived dairy as an expression of their veganism, while not necessarily sharing that position.

    As a side note, I do think it will be important -- as these types of foods proliferate -- that we have some kind of pool of common terms to describe what is involved in the production of them. For example, someone who is avoiding dairy products for reasons of health may now be buying products marked "vegan" because it's a shorthand way to know they don't contain dairy. But if in the future we have products like this or lab-grown meat, we'll need a way to describe them so people who want to ethically avoid the exploitation of animals can identify them, but those who are avoiding them because of pure concerns over consuming them (that is, a non-ethical objection) can still avoid them. I'll be really curious to see how labeling evolves over this.

    Thank you again for this insight. I pretty much agree with what you write here. It will indeed be interesting to watch. I remember thinking it was very odd that some Rabbis ruled that a tomato with pig genes would be kosher because it was so far removed from a pig. Then again, lots of Jews who sort of keep kosher eat pork eggrolls with a similar justification.

    Oh wow, I'd never heard that about the tomato with pig genes and the discussion about whether or not it was kosher. That's interesting. I think it gets back to the same root issue, how far removed does something have to be before it's removed "enough."

    So in a sense, it's the same conversation we're already having -- as vegans -- about things like thrift store leather/wool, Impossible foods doing initial testing on rats, sugar filtered through bone char, etc.

    Are there tomatoes with pig genes, or was that just a hypothetical?

    Also, if a vegan were to adopt a "no animal input at any stage" philosophy, would that mean not eating food planted, tended, harvested, processed, or packaged by non-vegans, since the energy they are putting into the production of food came from the exploitation of animals?

    I don't know - I was just responding to a reference someone else made.

    That's an interesting question about how a "no animal input at any stage" philosophy vegan would respond to food produced by human energy from eating non-vegan food. I have no idea how they would respond, but since it would limit them to food produced either by themselves or those known to be vegan, it would be almost impossible to realistically implement (but, IMO, it would also be very challenging to implement a sourcing strategy that eliminated food involving fertilizing with animal products or insect pollination).
  • FuzzipegFuzzipeg Member Posts: 2,007 Member Member Posts: 2,007 Member
    The point I was making from experience, (having had dil having a hissy fit at my parents about a piece of meat passing over a plate!) She would not accept dna extraction for the dairy substitute product or any other product yet to be imagined even as a vegetarian, she is now vegan.

    Bees visit plants to use the pollen, without pollen many insects would die, we benefit from the fruits and seeds. All land and sea animals produce excrement - in the wild its freely dispersed so the plants and bugs can make use of it for life. So things which happen naturally aught to be ok, being established in the way the world works. Things which can only, happen hygienically in a science lab are totally different. Cultivating plants introducing pollen from one to another, if the seeds form a cross which is more productive than the parents and that is used, its natural but taking dna etc from a living thing plant or what ever introducing it into something totally different with no known outcome, only the guess, I'm yet to be convinced.



  • aroura7777aroura7777 Member Posts: 24 Member Member Posts: 24 Member
    I'm a vegan and I'd be on board with it, especially if there were a very authentic cheese made from it :) I think it'd have a lot of potential pull for people who love cheese to try vegan alternatives :)
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 24,341 Member Member Posts: 24,341 Member
    Fuzzipeg wrote: »
    The point I was making from experience, (having had dil having a hissy fit at my parents about a piece of meat passing over a plate!) She would not accept dna extraction for the dairy substitute product or any other product yet to be imagined even as a vegetarian, she is now vegan.

    Bees visit plants to use the pollen, without pollen many insects would die, we benefit from the fruits and seeds. All land and sea animals produce excrement - in the wild its freely dispersed so the plants and bugs can make use of it for life. So things which happen naturally aught to be ok, being established in the way the world works. Things which can only, happen hygienically in a science lab are totally different. Cultivating plants introducing pollen from one to another, if the seeds form a cross which is more productive than the parents and that is used, its natural but taking dna etc from a living thing plant or what ever introducing it into something totally different with no known outcome, only the guess, I'm yet to be convinced.



    Your daughter-in-law's approach to veganism isn't the only one. I, and many other vegans I've encountered, don't have a standard of "no animal input at any stage" because we realize that isn't a realistic goal right now.

    When you say "no animal input at any stage," you were not making a distinction between activities engaged in by animals in the wild versus controlled by humans. If you're now introducing that you recognize that distinction, I accept that. I'll point out that in many cases of modern agriculture, the pollination is NOT taking place by wild insects, but insects are moved from place to place deliberately by farmers. So if you're saying that the first is acceptable for someone practicing a vegan ethics and the second isn't, you'll have to explain how on earth a vegan -- as a consumer -- is supposed to distinguish between the two.

    And you might also want to address how you expect a vegan to approach crops fertilized with animal byproducts. Does your daughter-in-law avoid these? Because those are absolutely "animal input" as well.

    As far as your daughter-in-law's "hissy fit" about meat passing over her plate -- it's not at all uncommon for picky eaters to not want foods they have an aversion to passing directly over their own food or plate, as it may drip down. This isn't part of vegan ethics, although some vegans may have an aversion to meat. I personally have developed a strong aversion to the smell of ground beef cooking in the years I've been a vegan. This is not at all related to an ethical position and shouldn't be used as an argument that cooking ground beef is somehow more morally problematic than other forms of animal exploitation. It's just an aversion, like not wanting meat to pass directly over your plate.
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