Faith in people and machines
globalc00
Posts: 103 Member
We all know CICO is key to everyone’s weight loss goal. I often hear people say scale that show body fat are inaccurate. And fitness machine like treadmill or activity tracker over estimate calories burned.
But it seems like people tend to believe the calories in their food that the restaurant puts up. The portions are cut by machines and cooked by different cook every day. The amount of oil used or how big of a scoop of sides you got all varies.
Why would you believe one but not the other?
But it seems like people tend to believe the calories in their food that the restaurant puts up. The portions are cut by machines and cooked by different cook every day. The amount of oil used or how big of a scoop of sides you got all varies.
Why would you believe one but not the other?
3
Replies
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Who believes that? Not me. Not a lot of the people here who regularly contribute to discussions.11
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You want me to wade through that thread to understand your point?7
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Oh for goodness sake. I assume you mean me and my Cookout meal tray. It seems to have rubbed some people the wrong way.
For comparison’s sake, here’s the burger and fries I just made in my own kitchen and ate not more than thirty minutes ago.
That’s about 100 calories less than the Cookout meal, however, the Cookout meal had fried onion rings and cheesy nuggets, and a standard bun, not the “Healthy Life” bun I used.
Cookout’s burger is 4.2 ounces. Mine, which I weighed, was just slightly over that at 4.27. Having worked in fast food as a kid in the dark ages, I’m pretty comfortable patties are sized as stated. They’re in the business of standardization for profit, after all.
Both had lettuce and a tomato slice, light mayo, and I indulged at home and had ketchup with my fries. Didn’t need them for the onion rings.
Onion rings have fewer calories than French fried potatoes, since they are simply a piece of onion and a hollow breading. I ate about 11oz of potatoes from the air crisper. That’s two servings if your keeping count. I do.
Both meals were substantial enough to fill me up. And equally delicious.
I’m not going to give up the occasional fast food to satisfy someone else’s belief that evil “bad” fast foods will make or keep me fat. That was over ninety pounds ago.
Now, let’s talk gyros........
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We all know CICO is key to everyone’s weight loss goal. I often hear people say scale that show body fat are inaccurate. And fitness machine like treadmill or activity tracker over estimate calories burned.
But it seems like people tend to believe the calories in their food that the restaurant puts up. The portions are cut by machines and cooked by different cook every day. The amount of oil used or how big of a scoop of sides you got all varies.
Why would you believe one but not the other?
It's all approximations and estimates. We make them as accurate as logistically practical, the unders and overs kind of average out, and it works.
Body fat scales *are* inaccurate - under conditions of varied hydration, they can be off by a lot. So what? That has nothing to do with weight loss per se, just has to do with people's perceptions of it (thinking they can measure it day by day, typically . . . which they can't). Over (longer) time, if one's average weight drops, fat has been lost, in all but very unusual cases.
If the exercise machine or the app overestimates calories burned, but we adjust our intake based on actual (multi-week) weight loss results, so what? If we get the intake to the right level for most of our typical days, it works. (Starting with a reasonable approximation helps, of course, as opposed to some obviously, wildly wrong estimate. In threads, that makes the question worth asking.)
The restaurant estimates are kind of the same thing. Most people don't eat out allll that often, but some stress over the calorie estimates. The estimates could be off . . . but so what? If dining out is rare, it averages out in the mix; if it's not rare but people adjust their target intake based on actual results, the process still works.
The calorie counting process has lots of moving parts. Some people do fine with intentional approximations. Those who can't, may do better with getting the process within reasonable statistical control. It doesn't have to be exactly exact to be close enough to work pretty well.
I don't "believe" any of the estimates (goal, home food, restaurants, exercise estimates, etc.), as an article of absolute faith. I figure that if I get them close enough (which need not require obsession, BTW), the unders and overs will mostly cancel out (look up "law of large numbers"), and it'll work. For 5+ years now of healthy weight after multiple decades of obesity, it's been working fine.
Good enough for me. 🤷♀️20 -
The restaurant estimates are kind of the same thing. Most people don't eat out allll that often, but some stress over the calorie estimates. The estimates could be off . . . but so what? If dining out is rare, it averages out in the mix; if it's not rare but people adjust their target intake based on actual results, the process still works.
Exactly. I like trying interesting restaurants or going to old favorites, and it's a social thing I do with friends (well, before mid March 2020). When I was losing and after when maintaining I'd go 1-2x a week, depending, and as these were the types of restaurants that don't have cals, I'd estimate. Likely well more off than some chain restaurant's estimation, but I never lost less than predicted on average, so it worked fine. If I'd been routinely losing less than I thought I should based on the numbers, I would have adjusted either my restaurant counts or (more likely) my way of estimating exercise, and so no big deal.7 -
It just seems like a lot of the "i'm not losing weight post" nobody bring up the fact that if they are eating out, their calorie count probably isn't what they think it is. People usually say, it takes time, fluxuation or the it's not linear.
If one is overestimating exercise and underestimating calories, and most people want variety in the days.... then the question of how much deficit if you are indeed in one can wildly vary.1 -
@springlering62 No, i wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the person that posted the cookout nutrition table. To have a burger that is 226 calories just seems impossible to me when 2 pieces of white bread is at least 150 calories.3
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It just seems like a lot of the "i'm not losing weight post" nobody bring up the fact that if they are eating out, their calorie count probably isn't what they think it is. People usually say, it takes time, fluxuation or the it's not linear.
If one is overestimating exercise and underestimating calories, and most people want variety in the days.... then the question of how much deficit if you are indeed in one can wildly vary.
I would say it also depends on the context. If I rarely eat at a restaurant or get take out, let's say once a month (which is pretty accurate right now), then the fact that the calories in that one restaurant meal might not be 100% correct is not the most relevant factor in why I'm not losing weight. If, however, I ate out 4 times a week, it would be a good question to ask.
I've read many threads on these forums in which the inaccuracy of calories in food prepared outside has actually been mentioned, so it is discussed sometimes.6 -
@springlering62 No, i wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the person that posted the cookout nutrition table. To have a burger that is 226 calories just seems impossible to me when 2 pieces of white bread is at least 150 calories.
Mcdonlds hamburger is only 250 calories though. What did they post it in the context of? Did they make it themselves? My burgers I make are always under 220 calories. (I use 90 calorie buns and 110 calorie patties)
But I agree, restaurant calories are usually a lot higher than stated so I always log 100-300 more than the website says depending on the meal. For example, I used to work at panera and the weight of the estimated amount of 2 slices of bread for the sandwiches on the nutrition facts was always A LOT less than the actual weight of 2 slices of the bread, thus WAY more calories in reality. I would weigh the slices and calculate the calories based on weight. I found my sandwiches on the whole grain bread slices were always 100-200 calories more than "calculated" on the website nutrition facts because of this.
We also were encouraged to have as much or a little bit over the minimum amount of meat to keep customers happy. (ex if 2oz of chicken on a sandwich, our manager liked it to be at least 2oz, but a little bit more is fine and we always usually did about 2.5oz or customers would complain)1 -
I know there are buns out there that claim 80 calories. However I bought a breadmaker to make my own bread, and using as basic ingridents as possible to make bread, 80 calories would be essentially 1 slice of bread.1
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@springlering62 No, i wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the person that posted the cookout nutrition table. To have a burger that is 226 calories just seems impossible to me when 2 pieces of white bread is at least 150 calories.
They had, as I recall, at least four different sizes of burger, and the 226 calorie one was the smallest. I figured it was a "mini" or slider, for which 226 cals doesn't seem out of line. I was skeptical at first before the I saw the nutrition label, as I was picturing a full-size burger.0 -
I know there are buns out there that claim 80 calories. However I bought a breadmaker to make my own bread, and using as basic ingridents as possible to make bread, 80 calories would be essentially 1 slice of bread.
How many grams in a "slice" of bread? How many grams in any given bun/roll? USDA database thinks a regular bun is 56 g on average, a slider bun in 28 g, and a "roll" is 48 g. Meanwhile, it thinks a "slice" of white bread is 139 g.6 -
After logging food on and off all my adult life, starting off with pen✒ and paper 📝, I seem to estimate quite well both food and activities.
I weight carbs (bread, cereal, pasta) and sometimes cooked food, about enough to drive family crazy (usually I secretely weight my food 🤭 , to avoid nasty comments). I then end up choosing for homemade food whatever seems more plausible to me from the database 🤷♀️.
For a while, I picked online workout videos which had the calorie burn shown/mentioned somewhere. I would log the average burn, because I am at a healthy BMI, but work my butt off and rarely do modifications. I dont trust MFP on HIIT (top low imo) or my other app for tracking activities on hiking (way too high). It's common sense that I use... I am also stubborn enough to not use a fitness watch.
However, the scale plays tricks on me all the time 🤔. I overeat and the next morning see no change. 🤞 Or workout like crazy and its up. 🤨 Well, in the former case the gain shows a couple of days later and it's there to stay, if I dont get back on track! As for the latter, I learnt that an intense workout can lead to water retention, too. So I get mad, hate the scale 🔨 and myself for snacking too much. Then dust myself off and go back to tracking 📝 and working out 🏋️♀️, maybe drink more water and be a bit more careful with my sleep. Consequently, the scale surrenders 😂
While constantly trying to loose the last 7-10 pounds I have actually maintained and variate within a range of about 18 lbs (because I keep lowering my target weight 🙈). So I must be doing something right 😉 w.r.t. tracking.
Oh, wait, this thread was not about me... 🤦♀️
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »
How many grams in a "slice" of bread? How many grams in any given bun/roll? USDA database thinks a regular bun is 56 g on average, a slider bun in 28 g, and a "roll" is 48 g. Meanwhile, it thinks a "slice" of white bread is 139 g.
Maybe i'm calculating my bread wrong. I was under the assumption that you add up all your ingridient calories and divide it by your final product. 25g of my bread is 71 calories.
ingridents are
381 g White Bread Flour
9 g olive oil
33 g unsalted butter
9 g sugar
6 g salt
4 g yeast
20 g milk powder.
makes a 1.5 loaf bread which comesout to be 576g.0 -
We all know CICO is key to everyone’s weight loss goal. I often hear people say scale that show body fat are inaccurate. And fitness machine like treadmill or activity tracker over estimate calories burned.
But it seems like people tend to believe the calories in their food that the restaurant puts up. The portions are cut by machines and cooked by different cook every day. The amount of oil used or how big of a scoop of sides you got all varies.
Why would you believe one but not the other?
Some restaurants are more controlled than others. Even those I do not trust completely. I make it a habit to ask for less oil used in cooking, butter and dressing on the side, etc.
For me it hasn't mattered. I usually only eat out about once a week and whatever discrepancies there are do not show up in my spreadsheet over a short time span. Over a long time span even if I ate only at home the margin of error will eventually require manual correction.2 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »
How many grams in a "slice" of bread? How many grams in any given bun/roll? USDA database thinks a regular bun is 56 g on average, a slider bun in 28 g, and a "roll" is 48 g. Meanwhile, it thinks a "slice" of white bread is 139 g.
Maybe i'm calculating my bread wrong. I was under the assumption that you add up all your ingridient calories and divide it by your final product. 25g of my bread is 71 calories.
ingridents are
381 g White Bread Flour
9 g olive oil
33 g unsalted butter
9 g sugar
6 g salt
4 g yeast
20 g milk powder.
makes a 1.5 loaf bread which comesout to be 576g.
Most of the bread I eat has around 280 calories per 100g, so that sounds about right. There are big differences in density though, the same weight can look smaller or bigger depending on how dense it is.
Hamburger buns, while looking voluminous, are actually fairly light for their volume so might hold less calories than you think.4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »
How many grams in a "slice" of bread? How many grams in any given bun/roll? USDA database thinks a regular bun is 56 g on average, a slider bun in 28 g, and a "roll" is 48 g. Meanwhile, it thinks a "slice" of white bread is 139 g.
Maybe i'm calculating my bread wrong. I was under the assumption that you add up all your ingridient calories and divide it by your final product. 25g of my bread is 71 calories.
ingridents are
381 g White Bread Flour
9 g olive oil
33 g unsalted butter
9 g sugar
6 g salt
4 g yeast
20 g milk powder.
makes a 1.5 loaf bread which comesout to be 576g.
Many brands have super low calorie breads. They don't use milk powder, oil, butter, or sugar which are high in calories. That is how they are way less calories than yours.2 -
@springlering62 No, i wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the person that posted the cookout nutrition table. To have a burger that is 226 calories just seems impossible to me when 2 pieces of white bread is at least 150 calories.
That was the person that posted the Cookout nutrition. 🤦♀️ Anyway its all averages at the end of the day and this post seems a bit much.5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »
How many grams in a "slice" of bread? How many grams in any given bun/roll? USDA database thinks a regular bun is 56 g on average, a slider bun in 28 g, and a "roll" is 48 g. Meanwhile, it thinks a "slice" of white bread is 139 g.
Maybe i'm calculating my bread wrong. I was under the assumption that you add up all your ingridient calories and divide it by your final product. 25g of my bread is 71 calories.
ingridents are
381 g White Bread Flour
9 g olive oil
33 g unsalted butter
9 g sugar
6 g salt
4 g yeast
20 g milk powder.
makes a 1.5 loaf bread which comesout to be 576g.
Well, for starters, 1.5 lbs is 680 g, not 576. Do you mean it's a recipe for a 1.5 lb, but you only get 576 g?
That aside, 71 calories for a 25 g slice of bread seems reasonable, and your method for calculating the calories in your bread, as I understand it (add up calories in all ingredients, weigh final cooked product, and distribute the total calories across some designated serving size), is the right way to go about it.
But my point is that it's meaningless to compare "a slice" to "a roll" without knowing the weights of both.2 -
The point is if 1 slice of 25 gram bread is 71 calories, its shocking that people can make hamburger buns that are 80 calories for top and bottom piece.2
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From the OP to umm, SP (subsequent replies?!), I've been fascinated @globalc00 by what seems to be a tendency to offer generalized opinions ("people seem to", "basic ingredients") and statements which turn into disbelief upon presentation of different thoughts. The hamburger bun vs your own bread being the most fascinating (to me at least).
Your engagement and openness to learn is great. I dunno, I just like watching how people think/process. It helps me learn about myself.🤷🏿♀️
Whether it's people's actions, their food choices, or their food prep, forums like these can be a great, safe place to learn about ourselves as well as others.
Perhaps it's now clearer to you how unclear the CICO process can be.
Math is math, but once you throw any combination of biology, measuring the nutritional value of food (whether commercially or privately prepared) or measuring the caloric expenditure of specific activities into the mix and you're like @dewit dealing with "close enoughs" and "it'll dos."
If you, or others, are seeing the health results they seek over time, then they're on the road to success...no matter how many or few restaurants were involved.7 -
@AnnPT77 , I always love your posts! 💐 Now, by throwing in the law of large numbers, you have my eternal admiration 🌻.
Thanks!
In literal terms, they're probably only semi-large numbers**, but the principle still applies. 😉
** . . . although, when one's been doing this for 5+ years like I have . . . ! 😆
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The point is if 1 slice of 25 gram bread is 71 calories, its shocking that people can make hamburger buns that are 80 calories for top and bottom piece.
It wouldn't shock me if the Five Guys buns are only 80 cals. They're so thin and flimsy they dissolve on contact with a little burger grease, much less condiments.
Yeah, I said it. Take your best shot, Five Guys fans.4 -
We can make ourselves barking crazy over this stuff. I have days (today) where my little fingers will seize up in indecision over entering 1 tsp versus 1.33 of honey crystals on my evening pudding. That’s 5 calories difference!
It’s good you’re paying attention and thinking about this stuff. It was failure to do so that got us in this shared boat in the first place.
Healthy Life makes a terrific line of low cal breads. I particularly like them because the ingredients are “normal” and don’t include cellulose or HFCs. 35 calories a slice, makes great sandwiches, French toast, grilled cheese or regular toast.
In all honesty, when It comes down to it, it’s just regular commercial bread sliced way thinner. Their hamburger buns are slightly smaller than standard and very fluffy.
That’s perfectly fine with me. They do the intended job and taste great.
I will be making a loaf of homemade bread for dinner. Mine calls for 500gr flour, salt, yeast and water. I’ve been fascinated by the variation in weight for the completed loaf. Anywhere from 701gr to 770’ish. Strangely, it was the loaf that didn’t rise properly and was very dense that was the lightest.
I’m wondering if the weight doesn’t drop more as it cools and releases steam. (As if it would ever last that long!)
So many questions about everything. But curiosity is what makes life interesting, even if it is about the piddly stuff.
Today I continue my experiment with instant clear gel. I’m determined to make a sugar free pudding that doesn’t taste bitter, like the boxed stuff has started to.2 -
We all know CICO is key to everyone’s weight loss goal. I often hear people say scale that show body fat are inaccurate. And fitness machine like treadmill or activity tracker over estimate calories burned.
But it seems like people tend to believe the calories in their food that the restaurant puts up. The portions are cut by machines and cooked by different cook every day. The amount of oil used or how big of a scoop of sides you got all varies.
Why would you believe one but not the other?
In every restaurant I've worked at, and I've worked at a few, the portions and quantities of everything are scientifically controlled and managed. Frozen burger patties are the same size. Buns are all the same size. You're trained to put X pickles on something, no more no less. Condiment squirts are precision controlled. It's not just any old bottle of something, it's designed to be precise. Restaurant managers, as much as anything, are making sure no one in the back goes "cowboy" and puts 3.5 scoops of cheese on a pizza when it's only supposed to be 3. All of this is for revenue purposes. And as a consequence, for any reasonably successful franchise restaurant, you can indeed trust their calorie counts to within a reasonably small margin of error.
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The point is if 1 slice of 25 gram bread is 71 calories, its shocking that people can make hamburger buns that are 80 calories for top and bottom piece.
How is it shocking? Did you see my post!? Hundreds of brands have hamburger buns for 80-90 calories and slices of bread for 35-50 calories. You use butter, milk powder, oil, sugar which are high calories. None of these breads that are lower contain any of that or they use lower calorie replacements.
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Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »The point is if 1 slice of 25 gram bread is 71 calories, its shocking that people can make hamburger buns that are 80 calories for top and bottom piece.
How is it shocking? Did you see my post!? Hundreds of brands have hamburger buns for 80-90 calories and slices of bread for 35-50 calories. You use butter, milk powder, oil, sugar which are high calories. None of these breads that are lower contain any of that or they use lower calorie replacements.
Exactly, and a lot of hamburger buns don't weigh very much, as explained.4 -
I do not like super low calorie breads because they are too light and porous. If I was going to shocked about anything it would be that the calories are not lower for that flour sponge.6
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