Do I REALLY need that much protein?!
gwenster89
Posts: 48 Member
Hey everyone! Happy new year. I've been getting back on my food/lifting grind (and damn it feels good!) and I've been having a blast nerding out about macros and intermittent fasting and all the things I'm going to sort of mostly not do. However, one thing I've seen a lot is that we should be eating 0.8 to 1 gram of protein per pound that we weigh. Is that true?! I've found that a lot of these numbers are catered to normative bodies (TDEE is another one), but once someone has a higher amount of body fat than what those calculations were created from, the results are no longer accurate. So, if I'm 200 lbs, should I really be eating 160 to 200 g of protein? That just seems like a lot. My naturopath said 80 is good, which is a very different number.
Just curious what your thoughts are! Thanks in advance!
Just curious what your thoughts are! Thanks in advance!
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Replies
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I’m absolutely no expert but the formula you’ve quoted should be per kilo, not per pound as you’ve stated.
That pretty much halves the requirement you’ve calculated give or take a gram or two.4 -
Not current weight, goal weight (or lean body mass, if you know it).12
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You should be just fine getting about 0.36 gram per pound of body weight (as in, avoid deficencies, be healthy). Higher protein intake can be good for weight loss, though, and is definitely useful if you want to built up muscles.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-per-day#the-basics4 -
Kilograms, so I'm at 185 lbs and if I convert that to kilograms, then that's 83.91 kilograms of my bodyweight. So my calculations for the recommended protein intake is 67 grams of protein per day. /// 0.8 grams of protein x 83.91 of my weight in kg = 67 grams of protein that I need.4
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Y'all thats way to much math!6
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Like other people said, kilograms and lean body mass/goal weight, not current weight, necessarily. That said, it gets less overwhelming as you go.
I started tracking not to lose weight (though i was obese) but because it occurred to me in a conversation with a friend that I might not be getting enough. The first time I tracked for (probably) 2 weeks. I had < 20 grams of protein most days. I got close to 30 ONCE.. That? Is RIDICULOUS. So, I started trying to up it.
I don't much like meat - so at the start it was struggle city.
At this point, I pretty much hit 100 grams of protein every day. 30 of those are from a protein supplement/shake, and the rest? Seafood, eggs and egg whites, (low fat) cottage cheese, (non-fat greek) yogurt, protein enhanced oatmeal (kodiak cakes makes one) and the incidental protein in things like bread and broccoli. I just sort of figured it out, eventually.
Has it helped with weight loss? Don't know about directly but - I suddenly didn't need a nap every day, and had better energy PLUS actually stayed full after meals? I'd say yes. Has it helped my general health/made me feel better? OH HECK YES.
There's an idea that high protein is for people who are doing keto or body builders, but the reality is a lot of people - particularly women, somehow - are not even meeting the minimum recommendations. It might not qualify as a total deficit, but it's still not great.9 -
gwenster89 wrote: »Hey everyone! Happy new year. I've been getting back on my food/lifting grind (and damn it feels good!) and I've been having a blast nerding out about macros and intermittent fasting and all the things I'm going to sort of mostly not do. However, one thing I've seen a lot is that we should be eating 0.8 to 1 gram of protein per pound that we weigh. Is that true?! I've found that a lot of these numbers are catered to normative bodies (TDEE is another one), but once someone has a higher amount of body fat than what those calculations were created from, the results are no longer accurate. So, if I'm 200 lbs, should I really be eating 160 to 200 g of protein? That just seems like a lot. My naturopath said 80 is good, which is a very different number.
Just curious what your thoughts are! Thanks in advance!
You're getting numbers all over the map here. The lower end is typical of what USDA or WHO will tell you as minimums for the average person (note that the average person isn't losing weight, isn't very active, and those sources' first priority is more about helping people avoid malnutrition, not optimize, necessarily). The upper end is often coming from bodybuilding sites that (IMO) don't take into account that some people may have extra bodyfat, which arguably doesn't require extra protein to thrive.
Personally, I'm a believer in 0.8-1g per pound of lean body mass, which for most people is somewhere in the range of 0.6-0.8g per pound of a healthy goal weight (middle of normal BMI range, if you don't know). Now, people will argue with BMI, but honestly, when you do the arithmetic, picking that or a number a little higher doesn't change the protein gram number all *that* much, so why get into that in this context? 😆
I think that recent research suggests that we may benefit from something higher than the USDA/WHO kinds of numbers if losing weight or active (especially strength exercise) or both. Getting more protein than needed can be more expensive (in actual money) than getting calories from other macros, but within this kind of range IMO there's zero evidence that it's an unhealthful amount of protein for someone without a contraindicating condition (like kidney disease). If it's affordable, I think that little extra is a nutrition bet-hedge, personally.
Those (above) are my opinions. Based on those, I target 100g minimum protein daily at 5'5" and 125ish pounds, active. That's just a jot above my estimated lean body mass, and I usually exceed it. (I'm also vegetarian, and think people who get a fair fraction of their protein from plant sources should err on the high side, for better odds of essential amino acid (EAA) balance.)
These are resources that I found helpful:
An MFP thread from a trainer who is (used to be?) on MFP: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/819055/setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets/p1
The lowball (IMO) USDA thing, within an all-nutrients calculator that's kinda nifty: https://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/dri-calculator/
An evidence-based source that's generally regarded as neutral, and that has links to research details, in a research review plus their calculator:
https://examine.com/guides/protein-intake/
https://examine.com/nutrition/protein-intake-calculator/
All of those have pros/cons and limitations, but I think they each have arguments in their favor, too, and I believe none are woo-woo unsubstantiated or irresponsible extremes. Others may differ, as always! 😉10 -
My thoughts...
A lot of responders aren't understanding that protein needs are situational and someone who is dieting and training gets a huge benefit from a far higher protein intake than someone maintaining and not training.
Quoting nutritional minimums for the general population is missing the point - aim for closer to optimal for your personal circumstances.
You are correct that your fat mass can skew the numbers, a lean 200lb person would require more than a overfat 200lbs person.
My choice was 1g per pound of estimated lean mass as a minimum goal, a rough estimate is fine.
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Many people also find that higher protein diets leave them feeling fuller and less likely to nibble.
Protein level is something you have to play with and YMMV, but for me, I can tell a distinct difference on high protein days versus low protein days (aka Doughnut Sundays. An hour or two after my donut I’m ready to gnaw my arm off.)6 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
The USDA suggest protein should be 10-35% of calories. If you're lifting want to be on the higher % which for most people in the normal or a bity overweight (per BMI) will get you into the .8-1g of protein per pound of bodyweight range.2 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »
The USDA suggest protein should be 10-35% of calories. If you're lifting want to be on the higher % which for most people in the normal or a bity overweight (per BMI) will get you into the .8-1g of protein per pound of bodyweight range.
Y'know, I kinda disagree with that. (But I didn't click disagree, in case anyone does.) It will vary a bit by person.
For me, I lost a bunch of weight at 1600 + exercise. At the base 1600, 20% is 80g protein, for someone with (probably) lean mass somewhere in the 90s pounds. That's IMO a little lower than ideal, but it's not crazy low. (At the time, I was usually into the 90s grams, sometimes higher.) 35% of base calories would've been 140 calories, a number of grams well above my goal weight (which is well within the normal range).
Moreover, I'd observe that active people following MFP as per instructions are adding calories from exercise, so increasing their protein goal to 20% of a higher calorie number. (A low-ish normal amount of exercise for me would've put protein goal at 90g at 20%). A more muscular (to start) person who is watching weight loss rate, not just trusting the so-called calculator, is likely to get a higher calorie allowance after the first-month trial period at "calculator" calories, besides.
Since men's good weight tend to fall higher in the normal BMI range than women's, maybe what you're saying is more likely to be true for men than for women. OTOH, they usually also have higher calorie allowances, so I dunno (and I'm too lazy to do the speculative arithmetic).
I think kshama's right: For a fairly decent range of people, the 20% isn't *crazy* low, especially once exercise is added. A little more might be optimal, sure. 35% universally? I don't think that's necessary, universally. (I sure as heck don't need 183g of it now, in maintenance, at a weight in the 120s, no matter my workout routine.)
Just my opinions, obviously. What I'd encourage people to do (and did encourage above, and did personally) was to do the arithmetic for grams. It's not hard.
To all those people who thought they'd never want to use algebra: Solve for X, eh? Heh.6 -
If you're applying a well structured, progressive, lifting program with the goal of increasing muscle mass then 0.7g/lb/day is about the minimum effective amount of protein you want. Note that's English units, pounds, no kg involved. And also note that you should use your lean mass in the calculation, but if you don't know your lean mass you can just use your total mass (total weight). You can also use 1.0 instead of 0.7 to make it even simpler. The idea is that overdoing it on protein won't hurt you but if you are consistently under your protein goal you are limiting how much muscle mass your body can create, and if you're working your butt off lifting you don't want to lose out on possible gains just because you're under eating protein.
Here's a science-y article on the topic. Another factor to consider, not covered in the article, is that as we age it's generally believed our bodies become less efficient at utilizing protein so, again, if you're older, like myself, it doesn't hurt to shoot for a little higher than 0.7 for your daily protein.
https://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/6 -
One factor I haven’t seen mentioned is that studies find extra protein seems to be beneficial for preserving muscle mass in older people.
If you are older, eating at a deficit, or doing any sort of hard training which requires muscle repair, getting more than the recommended amount is a good idea. There’s not much of a downside unless you have kidney problems.5 -
Eating enough protein can be tough, and (as mentioned above) expensive. The suggestion of increasing your % to 30 is excellent.
I started eating overnight oats for breakfast. This allows me to fortify my mixture with protein. Then I’ll have a protein mix prior to working out. I’ll eat a portion of protein with lunch. Then I have another protein as a snack before dinner and have an equal portion with my evening meal. I shoot for 30gr at each occasion. That usually puts me at about 150-175 grams.
I focus my meals around whatever protein I am having. As a pescatarian, meats are more limited, but Tuna, Salmon, Shrimp and many other sea foods are fantastic sources! I spent years as a vegetarian, and I just could not eat enough protein, conveniently. I have young kids, and there is simply not enough time.1 -
Thanks all!!! Lots of different approaches and theories here but I think the take-home message is that 80 g isn't enough for me. I boosted my goal to 30% which puts me at 150 g. I've done it before so I can do it again. My concern as much of the cost of eating more protein is the environmental toll... tofu jerky, here I come.8
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I eat 25% which is 130g for me. It can sometimes be a challenge but I notice better recovery and less doms after a heavy lifting sess if I’ve been hitting those targets. Eating under 100g doesn’t work as well for me personally. (For reference, I’m 46, 122 pounds and lift 4x a wee.)1
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Uh 4x a week not per wee! 😳🤣6
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My thoughts...
A lot of responders aren't understanding that protein needs are situational and someone who is dieting and training gets a huge benefit from a far higher protein intake than someone maintaining and not training.
Quoting nutritional minimums for the general population is missing the point - aim for closer to optimal for your personal circumstances.
You are correct that your fat mass can skew the numbers, a lean 200lb person would require more than a overfat 200lbs person.
My choice was 1g per pound of estimated lean mass as a minimum goal, a rough estimate is fine.
This. And what I did was aim for about .8 g/lb of a healthy goal weight. (The formula I've seen a lot, and there are articles at Examine.com to support them, is .65-.8 g per lb of a healthy body weight or about .8-1 g/lb of lean mass can be beneficial, especially if you are active and/or trying to lose weight. I went with the higher end, although I didn't care if I was occasionally under, since I am extra concerned with maintaining muscle in that people tend to lose muscle as we age even without a deficit and I was in my mid 40s when I started losing.)4 -
There is not an actual number. The USDA numbers were issued decades ago, but not really based on any study. If you go to old style bodybuilders you will hear huge numbers. Some of new generation bodybuilders tend to have lower numbers. R. Cheeke has had a career in bodybuilding winning titles and he has never touched protein supplements. Two things are sure though:
1 excessive protein is bad for your kidneys.
2 if you want to be in a keto diet, be aware that our body turn protein to glucose (sugar) if glycogen storages are emptied.1 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »
The USDA suggest protein should be 10-35% of calories. If you're lifting want to be on the higher % which for most people in the normal or a bity overweight (per BMI) will get you into the .8-1g of protein per pound of bodyweight range.
LOL
I did a one person experiment and definitely found for me that when my protein is higher I lose weight and gain muscle more easily on the same number of calories with less protein. But honestly, I can never get to 1 gram of protein per kg of body weight. To get close, I used a whey isolate protein powder twice a day.
Good luck
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Just chipping in to add consensus to what multiple others have said:
- The USDA minimum suggestion for general pop is irrelevant here.
- More protein when doing strength training is very good.
- More protein when in a calorie deficit is good, and it helps you feel fuller, which makes it easier to keep a deficit.
- More protein if you're older is good.
To that end, about 0.7g-0.9g per pound of your lean weight is good, and if you're in a calorie deficit you could maybe bump that a little higher. You said you're 200 pounds but didn't mention your lean weight. Still, that new 150g target you have sounds like a good amount. You could maybe do a few grams less if you're not in deficit. Time to get some whey protein powder.4 -
There is not an actual number. The USDA numbers were issued decades ago, but not really based on any study. If you go to old style bodybuilders you will hear huge numbers. Some of new generation bodybuilders tend to have lower numbers. R. Cheeke has had a career in bodybuilding winning titles and he has never touched protein supplements. Two things are sure though:
1 excessive protein is bad for your kidneys.
2 if you want to be in a keto diet, be aware that our body turn protein to glucose (sugar) if glycogen storages are emptied.
He recommends 1.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight for himself and others bodybuilding.
Isn't that similar to what you think "old style bodybuilders" aimed for?
Source - http://veganbodybuilding.org/robertcheeketraining.htm
BTW never seen any reputable evidence that high protein is an issue for your kidneys unless you have a pre-existing kidney problem.9 -
There is not an actual number. The USDA numbers were issued decades ago, but not really based on any study. If you go to old style bodybuilders you will hear huge numbers. Some of new generation bodybuilders tend to have lower numbers. R. Cheeke has had a career in bodybuilding winning titles and he has never touched protein supplements. Two things are sure though:
1 excessive protein is bad for your kidneys.
2 if you want to be in a keto diet, be aware that our body turn protein to glucose (sugar) if glycogen storages are emptied.
I don't think you fully understand gluconeogenesis. On ketogenic diets both fats and proteins are converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis at roughly a 60/40 ratio respectively. But that is a demand driven process and just doesn't happen because you eat protein.
A good frame for protein is aim for .8-1.2g per lb of goal weight. The evidence from the top researchers in protein metabolism recommend 1.5-2.2g/lb of lbm.
Op, keep in mind its a range. Women generally need 90-130g per day. And whats most important is a good resistance training program.7 -
Anecdotal situation, but when I increased my protein intake I found that I had some...ahem...bathroom issues. 😳 Granted, I was eating ~180-200g per day (52yrs old, female, ~135lbs) which is a lot, but it was in alignment with my goals. I’ve since reduced my daily calories, so that number has decreased to between 150-180g/day. Bathroom issues are pretty much non-existent.0
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LeanButNotMean44 wrote: »Anecdotal situation, but when I increased my protein intake I found that I had some...ahem...bathroom issues. 😳 Granted, I was eating ~180-200g per day (52yrs old, female, ~135lbs) which is a lot, but it was in alignment with my goals. I’ve since reduced my daily calories, so that number has decreased to between 150-180g/day. Bathroom issues are pretty much non-existent.
When you increased your protein, how did your fiber look? How about fats? Its possible there wasn't enough of one of those causing the issue3 -
We have an inexpensive scale that tracks a lot of measurements, including protein and skeletal muscle mass. I am mostly vegetarian who eats beans, pulses, peas, tofu and soy products along with fruits, vegetables, and greens. I eat maybe a quarter cup of chicken breast meat or 4 ounces of fatty fish like salmon, sardines or mackerel once or twice a week. My keto husband eats mostly meat and lots of fat, so you would think he would have much higher protein level and muscle mass. The answer is no, mine is actually higher in both categories than he is. Remember that you have many different options to get your protein needs met, and some of those options are lower in fat and much higher in nutrition than others. I focus on the healthier options and eat a little chicken and fish so that my microbiome will continue to recognize them as food it needs to be able to digest. Learned the hard way after succumbing to a serving of Christmas Ham and having miserable digestive problems for three days afterwards.
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »
The USDA suggest protein should be 10-35% of calories. If you're lifting want to be on the higher % which for most people in the normal or a bity overweight (per BMI) will get you into the .8-1g of protein per pound of bodyweight range.
Y'know, I kinda disagree with that. (But I didn't click disagree, in case anyone does.) It will vary a bit by person.
For me, I lost a bunch of weight at 1600 + exercise. At the base 1600, 20% is 80g protein, for someone with (probably) lean mass somewhere in the 90s pounds. That's IMO a little lower than ideal, but it's not crazy low. (At the time, I was usually into the 90s grams, sometimes higher.) 35% of base calories would've been 140 calories, a number of grams well above my goal weight (which is well within the normal range).
Moreover, I'd observe that active people following MFP as per instructions are adding calories from exercise, so increasing their protein goal to 20% of a higher calorie number. (A low-ish normal amount of exercise for me would've put protein goal at 90g at 20%). A more muscular (to start) person who is watching weight loss rate, not just trusting the so-called calculator, is likely to get a higher calorie allowance after the first-month trial period at "calculator" calories, besides.
Since men's good weight tend to fall higher in the normal BMI range than women's, maybe what you're saying is more likely to be true for men than for women. OTOH, they usually also have higher calorie allowances, so I dunno (and I'm too lazy to do the speculative arithmetic).
I think kshama's right: For a fairly decent range of people, the 20% isn't *crazy* low, especially once exercise is added. A little more might be optimal, sure. 35% universally? I don't think that's necessary, universally. (I sure as heck don't need 183g of it now, in maintenance, at a weight in the 120s, no matter my workout routine.)
Just my opinions, obviously. What I'd encourage people to do (and did encourage above, and did personally) was to do the arithmetic for grams. It's not hard.
To all those people who thought they'd never want to use algebra: Solve for X, eh? Heh.
I never said, and the USDA guidelines don't say protein should be 35% of calories. The USDA recommended range is 10-35%.
Looking at myself as an example. I'm 205 pounds have been a long time resistance trainer somewhere in the 15-20% BF range. If I'm lifting and maybe getting about 8,000 steps a day I maintain at right around 3,000 calories. If I get 200g of protein that would make about 27% of calories from protein, well within the recommended range. I think this would be pretty much linear for moderately active males in a normal BMI or slightly overweight range
Now if I decide to train for an endurance event, I would bump my calories but most likely not my protein since I'm a the 1g/lb of bodyweight which is considered good by many sources for an active resistance training individual.1 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »
The USDA suggest protein should be 10-35% of calories. If you're lifting want to be on the higher % which for most people in the normal or a bity overweight (per BMI) will get you into the .8-1g of protein per pound of bodyweight range.
Y'know, I kinda disagree with that. (But I didn't click disagree, in case anyone does.) It will vary a bit by person.
For me, I lost a bunch of weight at 1600 + exercise. At the base 1600, 20% is 80g protein, for someone with (probably) lean mass somewhere in the 90s pounds. That's IMO a little lower than ideal, but it's not crazy low. (At the time, I was usually into the 90s grams, sometimes higher.) 35% of base calories would've been 140 calories, a number of grams well above my goal weight (which is well within the normal range).
Moreover, I'd observe that active people following MFP as per instructions are adding calories from exercise, so increasing their protein goal to 20% of a higher calorie number. (A low-ish normal amount of exercise for me would've put protein goal at 90g at 20%). A more muscular (to start) person who is watching weight loss rate, not just trusting the so-called calculator, is likely to get a higher calorie allowance after the first-month trial period at "calculator" calories, besides.
Since men's good weight tend to fall higher in the normal BMI range than women's, maybe what you're saying is more likely to be true for men than for women. OTOH, they usually also have higher calorie allowances, so I dunno (and I'm too lazy to do the speculative arithmetic).
I think kshama's right: For a fairly decent range of people, the 20% isn't *crazy* low, especially once exercise is added. A little more might be optimal, sure. 35% universally? I don't think that's necessary, universally. (I sure as heck don't need 183g of it now, in maintenance, at a weight in the 120s, no matter my workout routine.)
Just my opinions, obviously. What I'd encourage people to do (and did encourage above, and did personally) was to do the arithmetic for grams. It's not hard.
To all those people who thought they'd never want to use algebra: Solve for X, eh? Heh.
I never said, and the USDA guidelines don't say protein should be 35% of calories. The USDA recommended range is 10-35%.
Looking at myself as an example. I'm 205 pounds have been a long time resistance trainer somewhere in the 15-20% BF range. If I'm lifting and maybe getting about 8,000 steps a day I maintain at right around 3,000 calories. If I get 200g of protein that would make about 27% of calories from protein, well within the recommended range. I think this would be pretty much linear for moderately active males in a normal BMI or slightly overweight range
Now if I decide to train for an endurance event, I would bump my calories but most likely not my protein since I'm a the 1g/lb of bodyweight which is considered good by many sources for an active resistance training individual.
Sure. I was responding to the implication that 20% was generally not enough. For people similar to me - even with possibly a bit more muscle than average for my size in my age category - 20% isn't crazy, and the 35% top end of the USDA range would be pretty extreme.
Interestingly, the USDA personalized needs "calculator" recommends 45g protein for me (set at "very active") which IMO *is* crazy low. (The calculator suggests 2413 calories daily at that setting, which is *maybe* 100-ish high for my reality, but in the ballpark.)
Targeting/exceeding my 100g personal-choice goal (which I estimate to be just above 1g/lb LBM, though without DEXA or other authoritative evidence), my current actual protein intake is running around 22% of calories on average most weeks, per MFP. That's at a slight calorie deficit (usually 100-250 daily), so I suspect that the protein intake would be pretty close to 20% of actual maintenance calories. I grant that it would be a higher percent of calories at a bigger deficit, but not enough IMO to make 20% crazy-low.
That was my point: For people similar to me, the 20% is actually higher (by lots) than the supposedly custom USDA recommend number of grams, even at a deficit; and though it's a bit lower than what I think is optimum for me, it's not far enough so to be a Really Bad Plan. This started with kshama asserting that "20% is perfectly adequate" (but mentioning higher percentages for those who prefer). I agree with your contention that it's better to use a gram/pound calculation, but disagree (original post said "kinda disagree"😉) with the implication that 20% is going to be materially too low, even if active/lifting. Like I said, individuals will vary: Higher TDEE, relatively lower percent needed (even at a deficit); lower TDEE, relatively higher percent needed . . . among other individually variable personal factors.
That's all. I don't think we have a big gap in actual opinions, in practice.1 -
LeanButNotMean44 wrote: »Anecdotal situation, but when I increased my protein intake I found that I had some...ahem...bathroom issues. 😳 Granted, I was eating ~180-200g per day (52yrs old, female, ~135lbs) which is a lot, but it was in alignment with my goals. I’ve since reduced my daily calories, so that number has decreased to between 150-180g/day. Bathroom issues are pretty much non-existent.
When you increased your protein, how did your fiber look? How about fats? Its possible there wasn't enough of one of those causing the issue
Oh, it was most definitely because I wasn’t consuming enough fiber. I kept my carbs fairly low; not keto low, but usually fewer than 100g. I’m certain that as a result my fiber was intake was probably 20g or less per day. Fats were fine because I ate eggs, cheese, Greek yogurt, almonds, etc.
I’m eating more carbs than I had been and haven’t had to deal with the issue in quite awhile, thankfully!2
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