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Dopamine Fasting
Ddsb11
Posts: 607 Member
I came across an article written about this guy’s experience with Dopamine Fasting, a term I had never heard before. It’s a pretty straightforward explanation of what he does to achieve results. It would be interesting to apply it in a way that would be ideal for each individual person, and I’m contemplating what that might look like for me, for the sake of curiosity. I’ve basically been eating 1-2 meals for 5 years, which would make transitioning into this lifestyle a little more seamless, but it still sounds incredibly difficult. I guess it’s just a matter of do it or don’t, just don’t think about it. Unfortunately that’s easier said than done.
Anyway, I thought I’d post the article with a link. I wish it was a little more detail oriented and data driven, but that’s something anyone could do if they were so inclined.
Article below:
What is dopamine?
Dopamine is a neurotransmitter linked to motivation. When we experience pleasure, our neurons release dopamine. This is how neuro-associative conditioning happens: we associate pleasure with that experience. And we want this experience more in the future.
Dopamine fasting benefits
Here’s the theory behind dopamine fasting. Our bodies release too much dopamine today. This overstimulation comes from social media, technology, sex, food, and so on. And it causes symptoms such as addiction, lack of motivation, and brain fog. Dopamine fasting is about reducing the amount of stimulation, hence the amount of dopamine. And when we do so, it helps reduce all these bad symptoms.
The idea is that by getting less dopamine, we increase the amount of dopamine receptors. And then, we need less stimulation to feel pleasure. Even simple activities start to feel great.
Mild dopamine fasting: things I avoid
Every day, I do a mild version of dopamine fasting. The first part is reducing or eliminating pleasurable activities:
No sleeping in. Waking up and deciding to stay in bed feels great. But after you start a day with this huge stimulation, the entire day is a challenge. It’s like you experience the peak state in the morning. And then everything during the day feels boring in comparison to it. It seems boring. But I don’t sleep in. Yeah, I lose that huge stimulation. But then the rest of the day isn’t boring anymore. It’s exciting.
No distractions
Distractions feel great, especially when tackling difficult tasks. It’s a pleasurable escape from your challenges. But when you go back to work, it feels boring. So, I stopped all distractions. And I feel better about my work now. That’s because my level of pleasure is stable. I don’t use distractions to create those peaks that make it difficult to return to work. I write down distractive thoughts so that I can return to them later, e.g., in the evening. And I noticed that with time, my concentration got better
No food until dinner
I’ve been eating one meal a day (OMAD) for the last four months. I love my OMAD results so far. I don’t have breakfast or lunch—just dinner. Here’s why it works so well for me. When I used to eat breakfast or lunch, I’d feel great after them. That was a spike of dopamine. But then, I’d return to what I was doing and it would feel boring. So, now I skip those two meals. And my mood is a flatline.
There are no peaks caused by meals. And no troughs caused by returning to less pleasurable activities such as work. What I also like is that having one big dinner after 22 hours of fasting feels fantastic.
Meditation
Meditation is key while on a dopamine fast:
1. It helps me reflect on why I’m fasting in the first place. It’s an opportunity to change unwanted behaviors.
2. After meditating long enough, I also started to feel pleasure from meditation. As a result, I crave fancy pleasurable activities less.
Journaling
Journaling is another way to reflect during dopamine fasting. I write down everything that I want to change in my life. For example, when I wanted to break food addiction, I journaled about how hungry I felt. It made me more aware of my addiction, which was a major step toward beating it.
Yoga
Yoga is a perfect combination of exercise and mindfulness practice:
1. Reflection makes us aware of our shortcomings.
2. It’s also a source of pleasure and accomplishment.
I usually do 40 minutes of yoga and then take a contrast shower.
And I always feel great after that.
Mild dopamine fasting: weekends and vacations
Now moving along to rewarding yourself for dopamine fasting. It’s important to do so, or else fasting will feel too painful and you won’t last long.
Weekdays: in the evening
I allow myself some dopamine-releasing activities in the evening on weekdays. For example, I have my only meal for that day while listening to an audiobook. These activities are as simple as possible to keep my dopamine low during the working week.
Sundays and vacations
On Sundays and vacations, I relax my dopamine fasting routine even further:
1. I listen to podcasts.
2. I watch soccer and movies.
Again, I do these things in the evening—after completing important tasks for the day. For example, I snowboard in the morning and help my son with his soccer training in the afternoon. Only after that, I allow myself to go to a sauna, have a meal, and watch a soccer game with my son.
Extreme dopamine fasting
Now, in addition to my daily dopamine fasting routine, I also do extreme fasting on Saturdays.
* I do intermittent fasting: no food for 40+ hours.
* I meditate and journal more.
* I don’t read or watch any content.
Travel makes 100% dopamine fasting easier because you’re in a good mood.
Benefit 1: Better concentration
I concentrate better and think more clearly with dopamine fasting. Distractions such as thoughts of pleasurable activities lose their grip on me. When I used to allow myself to get distracted, I couldn’t accomplish anything. But now that I concentrate better, I gain momentum and go into flow.
Benefit 2: More motivation
With dopamine fasting, I find it easier to do what I need to do. It’s like it positively rechannels my motivation. Say, previously, 50% of my motivation went into wanting pleasurable activities. And the other 50% went into wanting to accomplish high-priority tasks. But after dopamine fasting, it’s like 30% vs 70%, respectively.
Benefit 3: Enjoying pleasurable activities more
Dopamine fasting relies on a powerful life principle: the more we have, the less we appreciate.
That’s when I reap this benefit of dopamine fasting
With dopamine fasting, I artificially re-create that feeling of music scarcity.
1. When I spend a few days without music today, it feels better when I listen to it.
2. I also postpone listening to new albums as long as possible so that I look forward to them more.
Other examples
The same goes for food: eating one meal a day makes me appreciate it more.
Another example is spending time with my loved ones: I live in a different country now and miss them. And when I go to see them every couple of months, I appreciate our relationships more.
Benefit 4: Hedonic adaptation
Dopamine fasting makes hedonic adaptation possible. It’s all about finding pleasure in something less pleasurable than what we used to have. We can feel the same level of happiness regardless of our circumstances. We adjust to those circumstances, good or bad, and feel just as happy or sad as we did before.
My example of tweaking taste buds. For example, I used to have a sweet tooth and wanted to stop the addiction.
First, I replaced sweets with cheese sandwiches. And then I replaced cheese sandwiches with broccoli. Now that I rewired my taste receptors, broccoli tastes as good as sweets to me. I watched a video about binge eating by an addiction coach Cali Estes recently. She wondered why people would overeat sweets but not broccoli.
It made me smile because if I’m going to binge eat these days, it would be on broccoli!
Hedonic adaptation works in other areas as well
Likewise, dopamine fasting helps me rewire myself to find joy in less fancy things in other areas.
Examples include:
1. Meditation instead of watching TV.
2. Cooking my food instead of going to a restaurant.
3. Reading an inspirational book instead of watching a TV show.
Benefit 5: Exercising willpower
The next benefit of dopamine fasting is strengthening willpower.
Exercising willpower helps increase it
I deny myself of many things on a dopamine fasting day. It’s difficult and requires willpower. It’s like building muscle with exercise: the more I fast, the stronger my willpower is.
Exercising willpower brings pleasure
Tony Robbins said: We can retrain our minds to feel the pleasure of discipline. That’s exactly how I feel by exercising the willpower required for dopamine fasting:
1. I feel the pleasure of being in control.
2. I also feel a sense of accomplishment.
It does take time to get to that level but it’s worth it.
https://romanmironov.com/blog/dopamine-fasting-benefits/
Anyway, I thought I’d post the article with a link. I wish it was a little more detail oriented and data driven, but that’s something anyone could do if they were so inclined.
Article below:
What is dopamine?
Dopamine is a neurotransmitter linked to motivation. When we experience pleasure, our neurons release dopamine. This is how neuro-associative conditioning happens: we associate pleasure with that experience. And we want this experience more in the future.
Dopamine fasting benefits
Here’s the theory behind dopamine fasting. Our bodies release too much dopamine today. This overstimulation comes from social media, technology, sex, food, and so on. And it causes symptoms such as addiction, lack of motivation, and brain fog. Dopamine fasting is about reducing the amount of stimulation, hence the amount of dopamine. And when we do so, it helps reduce all these bad symptoms.
The idea is that by getting less dopamine, we increase the amount of dopamine receptors. And then, we need less stimulation to feel pleasure. Even simple activities start to feel great.
Mild dopamine fasting: things I avoid
Every day, I do a mild version of dopamine fasting. The first part is reducing or eliminating pleasurable activities:
No sleeping in. Waking up and deciding to stay in bed feels great. But after you start a day with this huge stimulation, the entire day is a challenge. It’s like you experience the peak state in the morning. And then everything during the day feels boring in comparison to it. It seems boring. But I don’t sleep in. Yeah, I lose that huge stimulation. But then the rest of the day isn’t boring anymore. It’s exciting.
No distractions
Distractions feel great, especially when tackling difficult tasks. It’s a pleasurable escape from your challenges. But when you go back to work, it feels boring. So, I stopped all distractions. And I feel better about my work now. That’s because my level of pleasure is stable. I don’t use distractions to create those peaks that make it difficult to return to work. I write down distractive thoughts so that I can return to them later, e.g., in the evening. And I noticed that with time, my concentration got better
No food until dinner
I’ve been eating one meal a day (OMAD) for the last four months. I love my OMAD results so far. I don’t have breakfast or lunch—just dinner. Here’s why it works so well for me. When I used to eat breakfast or lunch, I’d feel great after them. That was a spike of dopamine. But then, I’d return to what I was doing and it would feel boring. So, now I skip those two meals. And my mood is a flatline.
There are no peaks caused by meals. And no troughs caused by returning to less pleasurable activities such as work. What I also like is that having one big dinner after 22 hours of fasting feels fantastic.
Meditation
Meditation is key while on a dopamine fast:
1. It helps me reflect on why I’m fasting in the first place. It’s an opportunity to change unwanted behaviors.
2. After meditating long enough, I also started to feel pleasure from meditation. As a result, I crave fancy pleasurable activities less.
Journaling
Journaling is another way to reflect during dopamine fasting. I write down everything that I want to change in my life. For example, when I wanted to break food addiction, I journaled about how hungry I felt. It made me more aware of my addiction, which was a major step toward beating it.
Yoga
Yoga is a perfect combination of exercise and mindfulness practice:
1. Reflection makes us aware of our shortcomings.
2. It’s also a source of pleasure and accomplishment.
I usually do 40 minutes of yoga and then take a contrast shower.
And I always feel great after that.
Mild dopamine fasting: weekends and vacations
Now moving along to rewarding yourself for dopamine fasting. It’s important to do so, or else fasting will feel too painful and you won’t last long.
Weekdays: in the evening
I allow myself some dopamine-releasing activities in the evening on weekdays. For example, I have my only meal for that day while listening to an audiobook. These activities are as simple as possible to keep my dopamine low during the working week.
Sundays and vacations
On Sundays and vacations, I relax my dopamine fasting routine even further:
1. I listen to podcasts.
2. I watch soccer and movies.
Again, I do these things in the evening—after completing important tasks for the day. For example, I snowboard in the morning and help my son with his soccer training in the afternoon. Only after that, I allow myself to go to a sauna, have a meal, and watch a soccer game with my son.
Extreme dopamine fasting
Now, in addition to my daily dopamine fasting routine, I also do extreme fasting on Saturdays.
* I do intermittent fasting: no food for 40+ hours.
* I meditate and journal more.
* I don’t read or watch any content.
Travel makes 100% dopamine fasting easier because you’re in a good mood.
Benefit 1: Better concentration
I concentrate better and think more clearly with dopamine fasting. Distractions such as thoughts of pleasurable activities lose their grip on me. When I used to allow myself to get distracted, I couldn’t accomplish anything. But now that I concentrate better, I gain momentum and go into flow.
Benefit 2: More motivation
With dopamine fasting, I find it easier to do what I need to do. It’s like it positively rechannels my motivation. Say, previously, 50% of my motivation went into wanting pleasurable activities. And the other 50% went into wanting to accomplish high-priority tasks. But after dopamine fasting, it’s like 30% vs 70%, respectively.
Benefit 3: Enjoying pleasurable activities more
Dopamine fasting relies on a powerful life principle: the more we have, the less we appreciate.
That’s when I reap this benefit of dopamine fasting
With dopamine fasting, I artificially re-create that feeling of music scarcity.
1. When I spend a few days without music today, it feels better when I listen to it.
2. I also postpone listening to new albums as long as possible so that I look forward to them more.
Other examples
The same goes for food: eating one meal a day makes me appreciate it more.
Another example is spending time with my loved ones: I live in a different country now and miss them. And when I go to see them every couple of months, I appreciate our relationships more.
Benefit 4: Hedonic adaptation
Dopamine fasting makes hedonic adaptation possible. It’s all about finding pleasure in something less pleasurable than what we used to have. We can feel the same level of happiness regardless of our circumstances. We adjust to those circumstances, good or bad, and feel just as happy or sad as we did before.
My example of tweaking taste buds. For example, I used to have a sweet tooth and wanted to stop the addiction.
First, I replaced sweets with cheese sandwiches. And then I replaced cheese sandwiches with broccoli. Now that I rewired my taste receptors, broccoli tastes as good as sweets to me. I watched a video about binge eating by an addiction coach Cali Estes recently. She wondered why people would overeat sweets but not broccoli.
It made me smile because if I’m going to binge eat these days, it would be on broccoli!
Hedonic adaptation works in other areas as well
Likewise, dopamine fasting helps me rewire myself to find joy in less fancy things in other areas.
Examples include:
1. Meditation instead of watching TV.
2. Cooking my food instead of going to a restaurant.
3. Reading an inspirational book instead of watching a TV show.
Benefit 5: Exercising willpower
The next benefit of dopamine fasting is strengthening willpower.
Exercising willpower helps increase it
I deny myself of many things on a dopamine fasting day. It’s difficult and requires willpower. It’s like building muscle with exercise: the more I fast, the stronger my willpower is.
Exercising willpower brings pleasure
Tony Robbins said: We can retrain our minds to feel the pleasure of discipline. That’s exactly how I feel by exercising the willpower required for dopamine fasting:
1. I feel the pleasure of being in control.
2. I also feel a sense of accomplishment.
It does take time to get to that level but it’s worth it.
https://romanmironov.com/blog/dopamine-fasting-benefits/
1
Replies
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IMO, you just CHANGE your HABITS for dopamine rush. For me it's exercise, dance, playing video games (hard to eat for me when my hands are on the controller for a long time).
Habitual behavior takes time to change. If the change is to dramatic, it's harder to stick to. IMO life is to short to NOT ENJOY what you like to eat, do, etc. You just have to have the mind set that there are consequences for bad behavior or if you get out of control.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
9 -
IMO, you just CHANGE your HABITS for dopamine rush. For me it's exercise, dance, playing video games (hard to eat for me when my hands are on the controller for a long time).
Habitual behavior takes time to change. If the change is to dramatic, it's harder to stick to. IMO life is to short to NOT ENJOY what you like to eat, do, etc. You just have to have the mind set that there are consequences for bad behavior or if you get out of control.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Can I pick your brain about this? I’m trying to look at all angles here because I honestly don’t know what I think yet.
Okay, so the 5 benefits he’s listed:
Benefit 1: Better concentration
Benefit 2: More motivation
Benefit 3: Enjoying pleasurable activities more
Benefit 4: Hedonic adaptation
Benefit 5: Exercising willpower
Are you basically saying that you don’t need to dopamine fast to achieve these results? I follow what you mean about life being too short not to enjoy what you eat, do, etc. But what if what he’s saying does increase that enjoyment? What if, as he said, “we need less stimulation to feel pleasure. Even simple activities start to feel great.”
I do believe if someone is perfectly happy and content with their routine, and are receiving adequate pleasure responses from their daily life, then this wouldn’t be needed. If it’s not broke... But what if something is broke? Is this the way (to a certain extent), just altered in a way to meet your specific needs?2 -
I dunno. I'm not a neuroscience expert, but it's something I've had a layperson's interest in for some years, and have read a good bit about. The article sounds like speculative wishful thinking, self-fulfilling prophecy, etc.
Personally, I think someone could get some of those benefits with some of those *practices* (or other relevant habitual behaviors), but that attributing it to dopamine response is probably pseudo-scientific new-age woo. According to the "About" section of the web site you linked, this guy is "life coach" trained via a center that Tony Robbins is involved with. That doesn't increase my confidence in its scientific foundation.
That said, things like meditation, journaling, yoga, mindfulness, focus . . . sure, those can have benefits.
These are not the only mainstream sources that have some skepticism, but it's some examples:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/dopamine-fasting-misunderstanding-science-spawns-a-maladaptive-fad-2020022618917.
https://www.livescience.com/is-there-science-behind-dopamine-fasting-trend.html
Even the guy (Sepah) who originated the concept seems to be distancing himself quite strongly from some of the current hype around the term.14 -
No sleeping in. Waking up and deciding to stay in bed feels great. But after you start a day with this huge stimulation, the entire day is a challenge. It’s like you experience the peak state in the morning. And then everything during the day feels boring in comparison to it. It seems boring. But I don’t sleep in. Yeah, I lose that huge stimulation. But then the rest of the day isn’t boring anymore. It’s exciting.
I have never experienced this "boredom" after sleeping in, nor would I ever call any morning a peak state for me. Sleeping in isn't a dopamine rush for me, it simply rights the balance of sleep deprivation from the week.
I've never been able to meditate and I loathe yoga. All of this sounds like some kind of nasty exercise in penance to me. And I've never had any difficulty in finding joy in simple, mundane things.23 -
No sleeping in. Waking up and deciding to stay in bed feels great. But after you start a day with this huge stimulation, the entire day is a challenge. It’s like you experience the peak state in the morning. And then everything during the day feels boring in comparison to it. It seems boring. But I don’t sleep in. Yeah, I lose that huge stimulation. But then the rest of the day isn’t boring anymore. It’s exciting.
I have never experienced this "boredom" after sleeping in, nor would I ever call any morning a peak state for me. Sleeping in isn't a dopamine rush for me, it simply rights the balance of sleep deprivation from the week.
I've never been able to meditate and I loathe yoga. All of this sounds like some kind of nasty exercise in penance to me. And I've never had any difficulty in finding joy in simple, mundane things.
Right, how is sleeping in stimulating? Hey, he was just telling his story, what can you do? 🙂 For me, I practice Buddhism, and mediation is essential, so this theory isn’t that much of a stretch for me. It parallels in a lot of ways actually. I’ve always made things deeper than they probably need to be, so I need to keep things simple.
I do think if this feels like a penance, then what good could come from forcing it? If you’re happy, no need to change what’s working.1 -
I dunno. I'm not a neuroscience expert, but it's something I've had a layperson's interest in for some years, and have read a good bit about. The article sounds like speculative wishful thinking, self-fulfilling prophecy, etc.
Personally, I think someone could get some of those benefits with some of those *practices* (or other relevant habitual behaviors), but that attributing it to dopamine response is probably pseudo-scientific new-age woo. According to the "About" section of the web site you linked, this guy is "life coach" trained via a center that Tony Robbins is involved with. That doesn't increase my confidence in its scientific foundation.
That said, things like meditation, journaling, yoga, mindfulness, focus . . . sure, those can have benefits.
These are not the only mainstream sources that have some skepticism, but it's some examples:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/dopamine-fasting-misunderstanding-science-spawns-a-maladaptive-fad-2020022618917.
https://www.livescience.com/is-there-science-behind-dopamine-fasting-trend.html
Even the guy (Sepah) who originated the concept seems to be distancing himself quite strongly from some of the current hype around the term.
Maybe that’s what they’re missing- the why. Doing it for dopamine control doesn’t seem like a big enough reason to change your entire life, especially considering there might be holes in that theory. But, for a deeper philosophical purpose, this I get. I would still love to know the science though, and anyone’s personal insight.
ETA- Thanks for the links. Down the rabbit hole I go 🙈1 -
It sounds to me like Another view of what we’ve been hearing for a while now.
1. Meditation instead of watching TV.
We’ve been told to turn off the TV and do something productive. Read, play with the kids, clean house, take a walk.
2. Cooking my food instead of going to a restaurant.
We’re always being told how unhealthy fast food is.
3. Reading an inspirational book instead of watching a TV show.
We’re told to turn off TV, computer, cell phones well before bedtime for better sleep. Possibly read an inspirational story to help relaxation.
I have fibromyalgia. No cure. Treatment is cook healthy at home, eat healthy. Exercise as able, don’t overdo. Stay away from strong chemicals that may bother you. Minimize contact with allergens.
Build immunity as possible. Be sure to take needed vitamins, etc.
Sounds a lot like this guy. He just uses the term “dopamine fasting” vs reducing outside stimulation or other terminology used by others.
And of course, he adds a twist or two of his own.6 -
If you’re interested, from the Harvard article-
What Sepah intended with his dopamine fast was a method, based on cognitive behavioral therapy, by which we can become less dominated by the unhealthy stimuli — the texts, the notifications, the beeps, the rings — that accompany living in a modern, technology-centric society. Instead of automatically responding to these reward-inducing cues, which provide us with an immediate but short-lived charge, we ought to allow our brains to take breaks and reset from this potentially addictive bombardment. The idea is that by allowing ourselves to feel lonely or bored, or to find pleasures in doing simpler and more natural activities, we will regain control over our lives and be better able to address compulsive behaviors that may be interfering with our happiness.
Sepah recommends that we start a fast in a way that is minimally disruptive to our lifestyles. For example, we could practice dopamine fasting from one to four hours at the end of the day (depending on work and family demands), for one weekend day (spend it outside on a Saturday or Sunday), one weekend per quarter (go on a local trip), and one week per year (go on vacation).
“Dopamine is one of the body’s neurotransmitters, and is involved in our body’s system for reward, motivation, learning, and pleasure. While dopamine does rise in response to rewards or pleasurable activities, it doesn’t actually decrease when you avoid overstimulating activities, so a dopamine “fast” doesn’t actually lower your dopamine levels.”
So basically, take a break from stimulation, to “regain control over our lives and be better able to address compulsive behaviors that may be interfering with our happiness.”2 -
Personally I think that a lot of people just don't know how to really focus.If you’re interested, from the Harvard article-
What Sepah intended with his dopamine fast was a method, based on cognitive behavioral therapy, by which we can become less dominated by the unhealthy stimuli — the texts, the notifications, the beeps, the rings — that accompany living in a modern, technology-centric society. Instead of automatically responding to these reward-inducing cues, which provide us with an immediate but short-lived charge, we ought to allow our brains to take breaks and reset from this potentially addictive bombardment. The idea is that by allowing ourselves to feel lonely or bored, or to find pleasures in doing simpler and more natural activities, we will regain control over our lives and be better able to address compulsive behaviors that may be interfering with our happiness.
Sepah recommends that we start a fast in a way that is minimally disruptive to our lifestyles. For example, we could practice dopamine fasting from one to four hours at the end of the day (depending on work and family demands), for one weekend day (spend it outside on a Saturday or Sunday), one weekend per quarter (go on a local trip), and one week per year (go on vacation).
“Dopamine is one of the body’s neurotransmitters, and is involved in our body’s system for reward, motivation, learning, and pleasure. While dopamine does rise in response to rewards or pleasurable activities, it doesn’t actually decrease when you avoid overstimulating activities, so a dopamine “fast” doesn’t actually lower your dopamine levels.”
So basically, take a break from stimulation, to “regain control over our lives and be better able to address compulsive behaviors that may be interfering with our happiness.”
Here's my take on some cool possible pseudo science stuff: growing up I didn't have as much TV availability, cell phone, social media, etc. so when a task at hand was being done, the focus was on that task itself. Nowadays people are trying to do 2 or 3 things at the same time. I watch kids (I'm a yard duty at school) and they'll start talking about something, then look at their phone and respond to a text, then try to continue conversation. Our brain ISN'T a multi tasker. So with all these different things at one time that people are trying to do, it taxes the brain's energy use. Given that, the brain needs fuel to work like any other cells, CARB CRAVINGS might be the reason for this. I'm not making this up. I actually heard it on a radio show on my way to work.
https://qz.com/722661/neuroscientists-say-multitasking-literally-drains-the-energy-reserves-of-your-brain/
https://www.thedailymeal.com/healthy-eating/carb-cravings-are-your-brain-s-fault-study-finds/012218
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Here's what I don't understand: the article starts by saying that dopamine is released when we do something that brings us pleasure. And then it lists a number of activities that allegedly gives us that dopamine release, and that we ought to stop doing. Those activities are to be replaced by new ones (meditation instead of TV, broccoli instead of sweets, etc.), which we're supposed to feel pleasure from. But won't that "new" pleasure bring a dopamine release as well? So what's the difference?
I get the idea of switching "harmful" habits for "healthy" ones - even though that's highly personal - but I don't understand this approach, especially if you're going to get a dopamine release either way.9 -
Haven't read the replies
My thoughts, life is meant to be fun! I can see things like reducing phone time, media, TV and stuff like that. And sure eating less food that trigger dopamine.
But what's the point?
It sounds like toi much like inducing stress to make pleasurable things more pleasurable?2 -
GummiMundi wrote: »Here's what I don't understand: the article starts by saying that dopamine is released when we do something that brings us pleasure. And then it lists a number of activities that allegedly gives us that dopamine release, and that we ought to stop doing. Those activities are to be replaced by new ones (meditation instead of TV, broccoli instead of sweets, etc.), which we're supposed to feel pleasure from. But won't that "new" pleasure bring a dopamine release as well? So what's the difference?
I get the idea of switching "harmful" habits for "healthy" ones - even though that's highly personal - but I don't understand this approach, especially if you're going to get a dopamine release either way.
I wondered the same thing. I suppose the difference would be replacing them with things that will improve your health and well being, not break it down. I think clarity on that would have been helpful.1 -
GummiMundi wrote: »Here's what I don't understand: the article starts by saying that dopamine is released when we do something that brings us pleasure. And then it lists a number of activities that allegedly gives us that dopamine release, and that we ought to stop doing. Those activities are to be replaced by new ones (meditation instead of TV, broccoli instead of sweets, etc.), which we're supposed to feel pleasure from. But won't that "new" pleasure bring a dopamine release as well? So what's the difference?
I get the idea of switching "harmful" habits for "healthy" ones - even though that's highly personal - but I don't understand this approach, especially if you're going to get a dopamine release either way.
These were my thoughts exactly. The author seems to be assigning a moral value to some activities over others; reading a book or meditating is better than watching TV, eating at home is better than eating out. The latter might be true I guess if your finances are tight, but I think there's a lot of great TV content that I get a lot out of personally and can't think is a worse use for my time than reading, for example.
The Harvard Health article linked by AnnPT77 specifically lists a bunch of actually harmful activities that the original creator of the dopamine fast concept says it might help curb, quote: "dopamine fasting can be used to help control any behaviors that are causing you distress or negatively affecting your life". Watching TV probably isn't a huge negative influence in most people's lives.
As an aside, I find it kind of sad that the author mentions snowboarding and coaching his son as some activities he has to get over and done with, i.e. something he apparently doesn't derive pleasure from, before engaging in something more fun in the evening. Why snowboard as an exercise if you don't enjoy it? And wouldn't most people enjoy spending time with their children?4 -
Reading this I'm reminded of something my Italian husband says---this is coming from "l'officio affare semplici" (the office of complicating simple things). This is exactly what this guy is suggesting. Go somewhere in the wilds for a week or two, leaving behind all your "things" and get in touch with the inner you. That's what used to be recommended. Now it's all dressed up and complicated. Fact--if you take something away for awhile, it will be appreciated when given back.10
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GummiMundi wrote: »Here's what I don't understand: the article starts by saying that dopamine is released when we do something that brings us pleasure. And then it lists a number of activities that allegedly gives us that dopamine release, and that we ought to stop doing. Those activities are to be replaced by new ones (meditation instead of TV, broccoli instead of sweets, etc.), which we're supposed to feel pleasure from. But won't that "new" pleasure bring a dopamine release as well? So what's the difference?
I get the idea of switching "harmful" habits for "healthy" ones - even though that's highly personal - but I don't understand this approach, especially if you're going to get a dopamine release either way.
These were my thoughts exactly. The author seems to be assigning a moral value to some activities over others; reading a book or meditating is better than watching TV, eating at home is better than eating out. The latter might be true I guess if your finances are tight, but I think there's a lot of great TV content that I get a lot out of personally and can't think is a worse use for my time than reading, for example.
The Harvard Health article linked by AnnPT77 specifically lists a bunch of actually harmful activities that the original creator of the dopamine fast concept says it might help curb, quote: "dopamine fasting can be used to help control any behaviors that are causing you distress or negatively affecting your life". Watching TV probably isn't a huge negative influence in most people's lives.
As an aside, I find it kind of sad that the author mentions snowboarding and coaching his son as some activities he has to get over and done with, i.e. something he apparently doesn't derive pleasure from, before engaging in something more fun in the evening. Why snowboard as an exercise if you don't enjoy it? And wouldn't most people enjoy spending time with their children?
This guys routine wouldn’t be for me, it’s quite structured. But, in bold, I don’t think that’s what he meant (I could be wrong). I think he is saying he is prioritizing it, as something that’s important and needs to be done, before doing low priority options. It did come off that way though. I think he genuinely means well, but he’s not the best writer. I took his blog of his daily life with a grain of salt, it was his method to reducing the noise and being more mindful.1 -
snowflake954 wrote: »Reading this I'm reminded of something my Italian husband says---this is coming from "l'officio affare semplici" (the office of complicating simple things). This is exactly what this guy is suggesting. Go somewhere in the wilds for a week or two, leaving behind all your "things" and get in touch with the inner you. That's what used to be recommended. Now it's all dressed up and complicated. Fact--if you take something away for awhile, it will be appreciated when given back.
This. The more I read about the theory, it really seems like a trendy name slapped onto the philosophy of mindfulness, mixed with fast rules to break bad habits like escapism. He just Type A’d it. Which isn’t a bad thing if that’s the way your brain works. A lot of times guidelines/rules help us relax when we need to relax, and focus when we need to focus.
"l'officio affare semplici", what a beautiful way of saying it.2 -
GummiMundi wrote: »Here's what I don't understand: the article starts by saying that dopamine is released when we do something that brings us pleasure. And then it lists a number of activities that allegedly gives us that dopamine release, and that we ought to stop doing. Those activities are to be replaced by new ones (meditation instead of TV, broccoli instead of sweets, etc.), which we're supposed to feel pleasure from. But won't that "new" pleasure bring a dopamine release as well? So what's the difference?
I get the idea of switching "harmful" habits for "healthy" ones - even though that's highly personal - but I don't understand this approach, especially if you're going to get a dopamine release either way.
This is exactly what is confusing to me.
His categories seem odd to me as well. For example, he writes that he rewarded himself with a sauna after his day's "work" of snowboarding and soccer practice with his son was done. But for many of us, a day spent snowboarding and doing sports with a loved one would be . . . well, fun. What this really seems like is a way to rationalize and valorize the activities that he prefers . . . which is fine. I guess many of us do have a tendency to do this.
But when I cook dinner, I don't kid myself that I'm somehow releasing myself from the dopamine rush of a tasty restaurant meal. I cook because I enjoy the process and the results. It's another type of fun.
I've never experienced the problem of being so excited by lunch and dinner that the rest of the day felt boring. The way this guy approaches the world, it's valid for him, I suppose. But everything about this post read as so foreign to my personal experiences.
We get one life. While there is nothing good about going after pleasure in a way that hurts yourself or causes you to neglect other responsibilities, I don't see the point of deliberately denying myself the small, but meaningful, pleasures of a fun game or a good book or a perfect cup of tea or lazing in bed on a Sunday morning with a dog.10 -
As someone with a lifetime struggle with major depression, the very phrase "dopamine fasting" sounds ill-intended and sensationalist. First time I heard about it here, so I have reading to do, but I feel like I am about to read a "woman's magazine". You know the one, "Simplify your life by strictly following these 132 easy steps every day!". Make no mistake, the joy of having a thing is tenfold after being deprived of it for so long, but this sounds like an argument straight out of my Catholic relatives, "suffering is virtue". No thanks.13
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There's a specific form of lifehacking that seems so aggressively macho in its attempts to rationalize preferences, complicate the relatively uncomplicated, and create feats of endurance out of otherwise unremarkable tasks.
When I read stuff like this, part of me is like "More power to this guy for figuring out a way that works for him." But part of me questions it, like does this REALLY make him happier? Or is this just a desperate way to try to feel better about stuff he'd be doing anyway? It's hard to silence that voice in my head that is also saying "Dude, get over yourself."
Most of us manage to cover our daily responsibilities without having to turn it into some kind of dopamine-regulation experiment. We just find a way of scrubbing the toilet AND catching up on our favorite television show and everything pretty much works out.
(This isn't to say that some people do seem to struggle specifically with meeting their responsibilities and maybe some kind of plan or regulation may work for them in particular).
(Note: when I say it's aggressively macho, it doesn't mean that only men do this or that all men do it. I just mean I tend to see more men playing in the "life hack" space and when they're doing things like going on 24 hour water fasts or attempting to cut off dopamine by limiting fun or doing things like inventing weird sleep schedules, it often comes across as an attempt to prove how tough or "above it all" they are. Women also do stupid things to demonstrate their commitment to norms of femininity, they just look different than this).6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »There's a specific form of lifehacking that seems so aggressively macho in its attempts to rationalize preferences, complicate the relatively uncomplicated, and create feats of endurance out of otherwise unremarkable tasks.
When I read stuff like this, part of me is like "More power to this guy for figuring out a way that works for him." But part of me questions it, like does this REALLY make him happier? Or is this just a desperate way to try to feel better about stuff he'd be doing anyway? It's hard to silence that voice in my head that is also saying "Dude, get over yourself."
Most of us manage to cover our daily responsibilities without having to turn it into some kind of dopamine-regulation experiment. We just find a way of scrubbing the toilet AND catching up on our favorite television show and everything pretty much works out.
(This isn't to say that some people do seem to struggle specifically with meeting their responsibilities and maybe some kind of plan or regulation may work for them in particular).
(Note: when I say it's aggressively macho, it doesn't mean that only men do this or that all men do it. I just mean I tend to see more men playing in the "life hack" space and when they're doing things like going on 24 hour water fasts or attempting to cut off dopamine by limiting fun or doing things like inventing weird sleep schedules, it often comes across as an attempt to prove how tough or "above it all" they are. Women also do stupid things to demonstrate their commitment to norms of femininity, they just look different than this).
Exactly my question too- does it make you happier? If so, how? Is there proof? I want to know! I do know if I villainize (is that even a word) something that’s normal, like eating carbs, or not meditating at exactly 10am every morning, that will only make life feel unbearable and joyless. I don’t think that’s where the author of this term (not the article) was trying to go, or at least I don’t believe so. But people are people and we can be masochistic sometimes and turn good advice into a tragic lifestyle.1 -
As someone with a lifetime struggle with major depression, the very phrase "dopamine fasting" sounds ill-intended and sensationalist. First time I heard about it here, so I have reading to do, but I feel like I am about to read a "woman's magazine". You know the one, "Simplify your life by strictly following these 132 easy steps every day!". Make no mistake, the joy of having a thing is tenfold after being deprived of it for so long, but this sounds like an argument straight out of my Catholic relatives, "suffering is virtue". No thanks.
Hahahah! “132 easy steps every day!”... can’t wait (jk) 😂3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »There's a specific form of lifehacking that seems so aggressively macho in its attempts to rationalize preferences, complicate the relatively uncomplicated, and create feats of endurance out of otherwise unremarkable tasks.
When I read stuff like this, part of me is like "More power to this guy for figuring out a way that works for him." But part of me questions it, like does this REALLY make him happier? Or is this just a desperate way to try to feel better about stuff he'd be doing anyway? It's hard to silence that voice in my head that is also saying "Dude, get over yourself."
Most of us manage to cover our daily responsibilities without having to turn it into some kind of dopamine-regulation experiment. We just find a way of scrubbing the toilet AND catching up on our favorite television show and everything pretty much works out.
(This isn't to say that some people do seem to struggle specifically with meeting their responsibilities and maybe some kind of plan or regulation may work for them in particular).
(Note: when I say it's aggressively macho, it doesn't mean that only men do this or that all men do it. I just mean I tend to see more men playing in the "life hack" space and when they're doing things like going on 24 hour water fasts or attempting to cut off dopamine by limiting fun or doing things like inventing weird sleep schedules, it often comes across as an attempt to prove how tough or "above it all" they are. Women also do stupid things to demonstrate their commitment to norms of femininity, they just look different than this).
Exactly my question too- does it make you happier? If so, how? Is there proof? I want to know! I do know if I villainize (is that even a word) something that’s normal, like eating carbs, or not meditating at exactly 10am every morning, that will only make life feel unbearable and joyless. I don’t think that’s where the author of this term was trying to go, or at least I don’t believe so. But people are people and we can be masochistic sometimes.
Presumably since this is all based on dopamine release, it would be possible to quantify whether or not someone is releasing less dopamine overall or having a stronger response to the dopamine they are releasing. I'm obviously not particularly educated in this field, so that's a guess.
Now the question would come up for me: Do we know what "too much dopamine" is? Do we know that producing less makes the times we do produce it more impactful? Do we know if there's a difference between different types of dopamine production, like is the dopamine I get from cuddling with my husband the same as the dopamine I get from eating french fries or going for a long run? It seems really likely to me that different types of dopamine producing activities aren't happening in isolation. Other hormones are probably involved. Some pleasurable activities make us feel wired, others relaxed. Some make us feel productive or successful, others make us feel guilty or rundown. I feel like we lose so much nuance when we treat all pleasurable activities as the same. Watching a movie isn't like writing a novel, eating chocolate cake isn't like cuddling with a puppy. These are all distinct things and it seems weird to just lump them together as potentially harmful.
It seems so obvious that I'm reluctant to even point it out, but different pleasurable activities are different. What is amazingly fun for me is a drag for someone else and vice versa. We're not able to swap different activities and get the exact same result.
This is a really interesting topic to me. Thanks for posting it!5 -
As someone with a lifetime struggle with major depression, the very phrase "dopamine fasting" sounds ill-intended and sensationalist. First time I heard about it here, so I have reading to do, but I feel like I am about to read a "woman's magazine". You know the one, "Simplify your life by strictly following these 132 easy steps every day!". Make no mistake, the joy of having a thing is tenfold after being deprived of it for so long, but this sounds like an argument straight out of my Catholic relatives, "suffering is virtue". No thanks.
Hahahah! “132 easy steps every day!”... can’t wait 😂
Yeah - I got a book from some guy once purporting to be a life-health-hack expert... he completely lost me in the chapter where he went into great detail about the 150+ supplements he takes (every day) and the order he takes them in and why. I threw the book into the trash and went for burgers with my dad.
The guy here sounds a lot like the author of the book to me.11 -
As someone with a lifetime struggle with major depression, the very phrase "dopamine fasting" sounds ill-intended and sensationalist. First time I heard about it here, so I have reading to do, but I feel like I am about to read a "woman's magazine". You know the one, "Simplify your life by strictly following these 132 easy steps every day!". Make no mistake, the joy of having a thing is tenfold after being deprived of it for so long, but this sounds like an argument straight out of my Catholic relatives, "suffering is virtue". No thanks.
Hahahah! “132 easy steps every day!”... can’t wait 😂
Yeah - I got a book from some guy once purporting to be a life-health-hack expert... he completely lost me in the chapter where he went into great detail about the 150+ supplements he takes (every day) and the order he takes them in and why. I threw the book into the trash and went for burgers with my dad.
The guy here sounds a lot like the author of the book to me.
I'm trying to picture how long it would take to simply consume that many supplements, let alone the logistics of even finding 150 things TO supplement!4 -
.0
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There's a specific form of lifehacking that seems so aggressively macho in its attempts to rationalize preferences, complicate the relatively uncomplicated, and create feats of endurance out of otherwise unremarkable tasks.
When I read stuff like this, part of me is like "More power to this guy for figuring out a way that works for him." But part of me questions it, like does this REALLY make him happier? Or is this just a desperate way to try to feel better about stuff he'd be doing anyway? It's hard to silence that voice in my head that is also saying "Dude, get over yourself."
Most of us manage to cover our daily responsibilities without having to turn it into some kind of dopamine-regulation experiment. We just find a way of scrubbing the toilet AND catching up on our favorite television show and everything pretty much works out.
(This isn't to say that some people do seem to struggle specifically with meeting their responsibilities and maybe some kind of plan or regulation may work for them in particular).
(Note: when I say it's aggressively macho, it doesn't mean that only men do this or that all men do it. I just mean I tend to see more men playing in the "life hack" space and when they're doing things like going on 24 hour water fasts or attempting to cut off dopamine by limiting fun or doing things like inventing weird sleep schedules, it often comes across as an attempt to prove how tough or "above it all" they are. Women also do stupid things to demonstrate their commitment to norms of femininity, they just look different than this).
Exactly my question too- does it make you happier? If so, how? Is there proof? I want to know! I do know if I villainize (is that even a word) something that’s normal, like eating carbs, or not meditating at exactly 10am every morning, that will only make life feel unbearable and joyless. I don’t think that’s where the author of this term was trying to go, or at least I don’t believe so. But people are people and we can be masochistic sometimes.
Presumably since this is all based on dopamine release, it would be possible to quantify whether or not someone is releasing less dopamine overall or having a stronger response to the dopamine they are releasing. I'm obviously not particularly educated in this field, so that's a guess.
Now the question would come up for me: Do we know what "too much dopamine" is? Do we know that producing less makes the times we do produce it more impactful? Do we know if there's a difference between different types of dopamine production, like is the dopamine I get from cuddling with my husband the same as the dopamine I get from eating french fries or going for a long run? It seems really likely to me that different types of dopamine producing activities aren't happening in isolation. Other hormones are probably involved. Some pleasurable activities make us feel wired, others relaxed. Some make us feel productive or successful, others make us feel guilty or rundown. I feel like we lose so much nuance when we treat all pleasurable activities as the same. Watching a movie isn't like writing a novel, eating chocolate cake isn't like cuddling with a puppy. These are all distinct things and it seems weird to just lump them together as potentially harmful.
It seems so obvious that I'm reluctant to even point it out, but different pleasurable activities are different. What is amazingly fun for me is a drag for someone else and vice versa. We're not able to swap different activities and get the exact same result.
This is a really interesting topic to me. Thanks for posting it!
Same, thanks for entertaining the topic 🙏🏻
The link between happiness and wellness has always been intriguing to me, especially when we start diving into the neuroscience of rewiring our brains with intentional thought, which is fairly in line with this topic. I’ll be a geek and digress for a sec and give an example:
There’s a neuropsychologist named Rick Hanson who wrote a book called Buddha’s Brain: The Practical Neuroscience of Happiness, Love, and Wisdom. He mentions the research shown that as people activate their insula more, such as through meditation, the insula actually gets thicker. Neurons make more and more connections with each other, which actually measurably thickens your insula. So as a result, people then become more in touch with themselves. But even beyond that, research has shown that the insula is also crucial for empathy. Because when we get a sense of the emotions of other people, we actually light up the same neural circuits in our own brain—they light up as if we’re accessing those feelings ourselves. So on and so forth it goes. So the discovery- meditation is scientifically proven to change and improve your health and happiness, and it’s practical. Great!
So when I read the theory of Dopamine Fasting, I wanted to wrap my head around it scientifically, and ask, if it’s true is it even practical? What does dopamine do, the good and the bad? When is the increase in dopamine too much? How can we even control that and live a normal life? Basically all of your questions.
Apologize for rambling! Just enjoy reading your insightful responses! I learn something new everyday.
3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »We get one life. While there is nothing good about going after pleasure in a way that hurts yourself or causes you to neglect other responsibilities, I don't see the point of deliberately denying myself the small, but meaningful, pleasures of a fun game or a good book or a perfect cup of tea or lazing in bed on a Sunday morning with a dog.
Exactly! Although I don't experience any pleasure from the constant barrage of texts/IMs/DMs/phone calls that pummel me all day, they're more annoying than anything. I think I get more of a "dopamine fix" when I occasionally forget my phone at work on my lunch hour.
But I see no value in abstaining from the simple things that do give me joy like cuddling with the dogs, or hearing the sound of birds through an open window on a summer day, or seeing the little shoots of perennials coming up in the spring.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Presumably since this is all based on dopamine release, it would be possible to quantify whether or not someone is releasing less dopamine overall or having a stronger response to the dopamine they are releasing. I'm obviously not particularly educated in this field, so that's a guess.
Now the question would come up for me: Do we know what "too much dopamine" is? Do we know that producing less makes the times we do produce it more impactful? Do we know if there's a difference between different types of dopamine production, like is the dopamine I get from cuddling with my husband the same as the dopamine I get from eating french fries or going for a long run? It seems really likely to me that different types of dopamine producing activities aren't happening in isolation. Other hormones are probably involved. Some pleasurable activities make us feel wired, others relaxed. Some make us feel productive or successful, others make us feel guilty or rundown. I feel like we lose so much nuance when we treat all pleasurable activities as the same. Watching a movie isn't like writing a novel, eating chocolate cake isn't like cuddling with a puppy. These are all distinct things and it seems weird to just lump them together as potentially harmful.
It seems so obvious that I'm reluctant to even point it out, but different pleasurable activities are different. What is amazingly fun for me is a drag for someone else and vice versa. We're not able to swap different activities and get the exact same result.
This is a really interesting topic to me. Thanks for posting it!
Indeed; I started reading up on this, and in addition to dopamine there's at least serotonin, related to general wellbeing and happiness, endorphins, released during exercise, and oxytocin, released when getting cuddly. I guess these dopamine-fasting advocates concentrate on that in specific because it's associated with activities like sex, drugs and gambling that can be problematic in excess.
But according to this other article, only really intense continuous stimulation of dopamine receptors (e.g. sex, drugs, gambling) is enough to exhaust them, and then you presumably need an ever increasing hit of that activity/substance to reach that same high. I guess that would qualify as "too much dopamine". But everyday pleasurable activities aren't intense enough to cause any decline in that neurotransmitter system.3 -
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The OP hasn't been on since March 30th. I don't think she cares anymore.2
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