Lent
Replies
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MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
It being used as a weight loss thing is a pet peeve of mine, but if one is sort of culturally Christian and from a culture where Lent has been a traditional thing because it was a church thing in the past (as in the UK and the Anglican church or lapsed Catholics or whatnot), I see it as more like celebrating secular Christmas, which is certainly common among people of Christian (or even non Christian background) who aren't actually believers themselves. It's a religious thing for me, but I think it's fine to keep some aspects of the tradition that one appreciates even if one is no longer religious.9 -
I understand where you're coming from , Lynn_glenmont, but ultimately I agree with lemurcat. It's annoying when people diet to lose weight for Lent, especially if they bring an attitude of vanity rather than introspection and humility to the endeavor. But ultimately, it's good when people examine where their their lives are headed, ponder whether their current directions are truly best for living their fullest lives, and make course corrections to be better versions of themselves. Introspection is hard, and countercultural. Whatever gets people to undertake that is better for all than doing nothing.10
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
It being used as a weight loss thing is a pet peeve of mine, but if one is sort of culturally Christian and from a culture where Lent has been a traditional thing because it was a church thing in the past (as in the UK and the Anglican church or lapsed Catholics or whatnot), I see it as more like celebrating secular Christmas, which is certainly common among people of Christian (or even non Christian background) who aren't actually believers themselves. It's a religious thing for me, but I think it's fine to keep some aspects of the tradition that one appreciates even if one is no longer religious.
Yes, my perception is that the people doing this are coming from a cultural Christian context. Am I hijacking someone's sacred tradition by celebrating Christmas even though I am no longer a believer?
I wasn't really given a choice about being raised in a society where Christianity is the assumed default. In the past, Christians worked hard to make it the default, to the point that many societies had legal penalties for non-observance and laws that enforced the moral codes associated with Christianity. If modern Christians don't care for that today and would like it to be a smaller circle, it's a bit late to put that genie back into the bottle.
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not about 'making it a cultural thing'. It already is a cultural thing here. Nobody is going to change that. That's just how it is. You're thinking of it the wrong way around. It's hard to really understand how deeply ingrained these things are in British society unless you live here. It comes from cultural Anglican Christian tradition. Like people celebrating pancake day. It comes from Christianity but most people who grew up Christian but no longer believe, still have pancakes on that day. Trying to stop Brits from doing Lent will only lead to further decline of the Anglican religion, won't it, if those culturally Christian things are somehow no longer allowed? Surely religious people should be glad these things are still a staple in our society?
Like others have said, plenty of non-Christians celebrate Christmas.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
It being used as a weight loss thing is a pet peeve of mine, but if one is sort of culturally Christian and from a culture where Lent has been a traditional thing because it was a church thing in the past (as in the UK and the Anglican church or lapsed Catholics or whatnot), I see it as more like celebrating secular Christmas, which is certainly common among people of Christian (or even non Christian background) who aren't actually believers themselves. It's a religious thing for me, but I think it's fine to keep some aspects of the tradition that one appreciates even if one is no longer religious.
Yes, my perception is that the people doing this are coming from a cultural Christian context. Am I hijacking someone's sacred tradition by celebrating Christmas even though I am no longer a believer?
I wasn't really given a choice about being raised in a society where Christianity is the assumed default. In the past, Christians worked hard to make it the default, to the point that many societies had legal penalties for non-observance and laws that enforced the moral codes associated with Christianity. If modern Christians don't care for that today and would like it to be a smaller circle, it's a bit late to put that genie back into the bottle.
The vast majority of customs incorporated into the concept of "celebrating Christmas" have next to no nexus to actual religious observance. Most non-believers celebration of Christmas involves putting up a tree, giving gifts, singing songs, and eating a big meal, not attending a religious service, mouthing prayers and professions of belief that you know you don't believe, and lining up to participate in Communion despite a belief that you will be receiving ordinary bread and wine.
I realize no one is going to change their non-religious appropriation of others' sacred observances just because I explain why I find it offensive.2 -
I give up leant for Lent, so don't try to borrow anything from me, K?1
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
It being used as a weight loss thing is a pet peeve of mine, but if one is sort of culturally Christian and from a culture where Lent has been a traditional thing because it was a church thing in the past (as in the UK and the Anglican church or lapsed Catholics or whatnot), I see it as more like celebrating secular Christmas, which is certainly common among people of Christian (or even non Christian background) who aren't actually believers themselves. It's a religious thing for me, but I think it's fine to keep some aspects of the tradition that one appreciates even if one is no longer religious.
Yes, my perception is that the people doing this are coming from a cultural Christian context. Am I hijacking someone's sacred tradition by celebrating Christmas even though I am no longer a believer?
I wasn't really given a choice about being raised in a society where Christianity is the assumed default. In the past, Christians worked hard to make it the default, to the point that many societies had legal penalties for non-observance and laws that enforced the moral codes associated with Christianity. If modern Christians don't care for that today and would like it to be a smaller circle, it's a bit late to put that genie back into the bottle.
The vast majority of customs incorporated into the concept of "celebrating Christmas" have next to no nexus to actual religious observance. Most non-believers celebration of Christmas involves putting up a tree, giving gifts, singing songs, and eating a big meal, not attending a religious service, mouthing prayers and professions of belief that you know you don't believe, and lining up to participate in Communion despite a belief that you will be receiving ordinary bread and wine.
I realize no one is going to change their non-religious appropriation of others' sacred observances just because I explain why I find it offensive.
It's not appropriation for someone who is raised in a cultural Christian context to do those things. That's the whole point of a cultural Christian context. We were raised with these things being part of the fabric of our year, this is literally how we celebrate. It's not like we watched a documentary and said "Oh, Christmas! That sounds fun" or "Whoa, people give things up for Lent over there, I think I'll try that."
You can be offended all you want, but it was Christians themselves -- in the past -- who made these things cultural instead of an in-group thing that others are appropriating from you.
If a cultural Christian gives things up for Lent, it's part of our own culture, not appropriation.
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
It being used as a weight loss thing is a pet peeve of mine, but if one is sort of culturally Christian and from a culture where Lent has been a traditional thing because it was a church thing in the past (as in the UK and the Anglican church or lapsed Catholics or whatnot), I see it as more like celebrating secular Christmas, which is certainly common among people of Christian (or even non Christian background) who aren't actually believers themselves. It's a religious thing for me, but I think it's fine to keep some aspects of the tradition that one appreciates even if one is no longer religious.
Yes, my perception is that the people doing this are coming from a cultural Christian context. Am I hijacking someone's sacred tradition by celebrating Christmas even though I am no longer a believer?
I wasn't really given a choice about being raised in a society where Christianity is the assumed default. In the past, Christians worked hard to make it the default, to the point that many societies had legal penalties for non-observance and laws that enforced the moral codes associated with Christianity. If modern Christians don't care for that today and would like it to be a smaller circle, it's a bit late to put that genie back into the bottle.
The vast majority of customs incorporated into the concept of "celebrating Christmas" have next to no nexus to actual religious observance. Most non-believers celebration of Christmas involves putting up a tree, giving gifts, singing songs, and eating a big meal, not attending a religious service, mouthing prayers and professions of belief that you know you don't believe, and lining up to participate in Communion despite a belief that you will be receiving ordinary bread and wine.
I realize no one is going to change their non-religious appropriation of others' sacred observances just because I explain why I find it offensive.
To be fair, Christians first appropriated the heck out of pagan customs... like Easter, the sacred day of Oestara, celebrated by decorating eggs, and Yule, with decorated trees, and December 25th, the birthday of Mithras. (Since shepherds were out when Jesus was born, he was probably born in spring.)
I think it’s kinder, and therefore more Christian, to let other people be happy without looking for reasons to take offense.9 -
rheddmobile wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
It being used as a weight loss thing is a pet peeve of mine, but if one is sort of culturally Christian and from a culture where Lent has been a traditional thing because it was a church thing in the past (as in the UK and the Anglican church or lapsed Catholics or whatnot), I see it as more like celebrating secular Christmas, which is certainly common among people of Christian (or even non Christian background) who aren't actually believers themselves. It's a religious thing for me, but I think it's fine to keep some aspects of the tradition that one appreciates even if one is no longer religious.
Yes, my perception is that the people doing this are coming from a cultural Christian context. Am I hijacking someone's sacred tradition by celebrating Christmas even though I am no longer a believer?
I wasn't really given a choice about being raised in a society where Christianity is the assumed default. In the past, Christians worked hard to make it the default, to the point that many societies had legal penalties for non-observance and laws that enforced the moral codes associated with Christianity. If modern Christians don't care for that today and would like it to be a smaller circle, it's a bit late to put that genie back into the bottle.
The vast majority of customs incorporated into the concept of "celebrating Christmas" have next to no nexus to actual religious observance. Most non-believers celebration of Christmas involves putting up a tree, giving gifts, singing songs, and eating a big meal, not attending a religious service, mouthing prayers and professions of belief that you know you don't believe, and lining up to participate in Communion despite a belief that you will be receiving ordinary bread and wine.
I realize no one is going to change their non-religious appropriation of others' sacred observances just because I explain why I find it offensive.
To be fair, Christians first appropriated the heck out of pagan customs... like Easter, the sacred day of Oestara, celebrated by decorating eggs, and Yule, with decorated trees, and December 25th, the birthday of Mithras. (Since shepherds were out when Jesus was born, he was probably born in spring.)
I think it’s kinder, and therefore more Christian, to let other people be happy without looking for reasons to take offense.
no, that is not correct.
https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-mithras-mythology/
The early Christians were celebrating Christ's resurrection almost immediately after the event. See Saint Paul's letter where he clearly states that the tradition wad handed down to him from the apostles that Chrst died on the cross, rose from the dead and then appeared to the apostles and then lastly to me. < paraphrase2 -
rheddmobile wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
It being used as a weight loss thing is a pet peeve of mine, but if one is sort of culturally Christian and from a culture where Lent has been a traditional thing because it was a church thing in the past (as in the UK and the Anglican church or lapsed Catholics or whatnot), I see it as more like celebrating secular Christmas, which is certainly common among people of Christian (or even non Christian background) who aren't actually believers themselves. It's a religious thing for me, but I think it's fine to keep some aspects of the tradition that one appreciates even if one is no longer religious.
Yes, my perception is that the people doing this are coming from a cultural Christian context. Am I hijacking someone's sacred tradition by celebrating Christmas even though I am no longer a believer?
I wasn't really given a choice about being raised in a society where Christianity is the assumed default. In the past, Christians worked hard to make it the default, to the point that many societies had legal penalties for non-observance and laws that enforced the moral codes associated with Christianity. If modern Christians don't care for that today and would like it to be a smaller circle, it's a bit late to put that genie back into the bottle.
The vast majority of customs incorporated into the concept of "celebrating Christmas" have next to no nexus to actual religious observance. Most non-believers celebration of Christmas involves putting up a tree, giving gifts, singing songs, and eating a big meal, not attending a religious service, mouthing prayers and professions of belief that you know you don't believe, and lining up to participate in Communion despite a belief that you will be receiving ordinary bread and wine.
I realize no one is going to change their non-religious appropriation of others' sacred observances just because I explain why I find it offensive.
To be fair, Christians first appropriated the heck out of pagan customs... like Easter, the sacred day of Oestara, celebrated by decorating eggs, and Yule, with decorated trees, and December 25th, the birthday of Mithras. (Since shepherds were out when Jesus was born, he was probably born in spring.)
I think it’s kinder, and therefore more Christian, to let other people be happy without looking for reasons to take offense.
no, that is not correct.
https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-mithras-mythology/
The early Christians were celebrating Christ's resurrection almost immediately after the event. See Saint Paul's letter where he clearly states that the tradition wad handed down to him from the apostles that Chrst died on the cross, rose from the dead and then appeared to the apostles and then lastly to me. < paraphrase
That’s not what I’m saying, my discussion is about the specific date, which was not associated with Christ until later.1 -
rheddmobile wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
It being used as a weight loss thing is a pet peeve of mine, but if one is sort of culturally Christian and from a culture where Lent has been a traditional thing because it was a church thing in the past (as in the UK and the Anglican church or lapsed Catholics or whatnot), I see it as more like celebrating secular Christmas, which is certainly common among people of Christian (or even non Christian background) who aren't actually believers themselves. It's a religious thing for me, but I think it's fine to keep some aspects of the tradition that one appreciates even if one is no longer religious.
Yes, my perception is that the people doing this are coming from a cultural Christian context. Am I hijacking someone's sacred tradition by celebrating Christmas even though I am no longer a believer?
I wasn't really given a choice about being raised in a society where Christianity is the assumed default. In the past, Christians worked hard to make it the default, to the point that many societies had legal penalties for non-observance and laws that enforced the moral codes associated with Christianity. If modern Christians don't care for that today and would like it to be a smaller circle, it's a bit late to put that genie back into the bottle.
The vast majority of customs incorporated into the concept of "celebrating Christmas" have next to no nexus to actual religious observance. Most non-believers celebration of Christmas involves putting up a tree, giving gifts, singing songs, and eating a big meal, not attending a religious service, mouthing prayers and professions of belief that you know you don't believe, and lining up to participate in Communion despite a belief that you will be receiving ordinary bread and wine.
I realize no one is going to change their non-religious appropriation of others' sacred observances just because I explain why I find it offensive.
To be fair, Christians first appropriated the heck out of pagan customs... like Easter, the sacred day of Oestara, celebrated by decorating eggs, and Yule, with decorated trees, and December 25th, the birthday of Mithras. (Since shepherds were out when Jesus was born, he was probably born in spring.)
I think it’s kinder, and therefore more Christian, to let other people be happy without looking for reasons to take offense.
It's kinder not to dismiss and belittle someone's pain at having their religious practices treated as something to be borrowed for nonreligious use.1 -
BecomingMoreAwesome wrote: »samiam4114 wrote: »Last year instead of giving up something, I incorporated saying a rosary a day. Best Lenten season to date
I like this idea. I’m not Catholic anymore, but when I was, a priest I really respected spoke about not treating Lent as a time of punishment but as an opportunity to improve ourselves by adding a healthy, loving, or giving habit.
Edit because it read as though I used to be a priest.
Inspiring reading these!!0 -
This year my goal is to eat fish at least twice per week. I like fish but it is so much more expensive than chicken. All my local supermarkets are supporting me in eating more fish by having sales 3
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
It being used as a weight loss thing is a pet peeve of mine, but if one is sort of culturally Christian and from a culture where Lent has been a traditional thing because it was a church thing in the past (as in the UK and the Anglican church or lapsed Catholics or whatnot), I see it as more like celebrating secular Christmas, which is certainly common among people of Christian (or even non Christian background) who aren't actually believers themselves. It's a religious thing for me, but I think it's fine to keep some aspects of the tradition that one appreciates even if one is no longer religious.
Yes, my perception is that the people doing this are coming from a cultural Christian context. Am I hijacking someone's sacred tradition by celebrating Christmas even though I am no longer a believer?
I wasn't really given a choice about being raised in a society where Christianity is the assumed default. In the past, Christians worked hard to make it the default, to the point that many societies had legal penalties for non-observance and laws that enforced the moral codes associated with Christianity. If modern Christians don't care for that today and would like it to be a smaller circle, it's a bit late to put that genie back into the bottle.
The vast majority of customs incorporated into the concept of "celebrating Christmas" have next to no nexus to actual religious observance. Most non-believers celebration of Christmas involves putting up a tree, giving gifts, singing songs, and eating a big meal, not attending a religious service, mouthing prayers and professions of belief that you know you don't believe, and lining up to participate in Communion despite a belief that you will be receiving ordinary bread and wine.
I realize no one is going to change their non-religious appropriation of others' sacred observances just because I explain why I find it offensive.
To be fair, Christians first appropriated the heck out of pagan customs... like Easter, the sacred day of Oestara, celebrated by decorating eggs, and Yule, with decorated trees, and December 25th, the birthday of Mithras. (Since shepherds were out when Jesus was born, he was probably born in spring.)
I think it’s kinder, and therefore more Christian, to let other people be happy without looking for reasons to take offense.
It's kinder not to dismiss and belittle someone's pain at having their religious practices treated as something to be borrowed for nonreligious use.
The whole point is that it's not borrowed - I'm not Christian, but was raised Christian and live in a traditionally Christian society, therefore it's actually a part of my culture as well as yours. Just because I choose not to believe doesn't mean I exit the whole culture.1 -
I am giving up animal protein and fasting (not IF).0
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Giving up all sweets this year. Wish me luck!2
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This year instead of just giving up something since that usually involves food and right after Lent I go back to eating it with a passion. Like at 12:01 Easter Vigil night when I have given up things like sweet or chocolate as an example - I come in after mass and have my given up item waiting.
This year I am going to do something positive instead 1 deca of the rosary each day, pray for someone going through a physical or mental trauma and finally the money I would spend at Starbucks on coffee every morning , I am going to put in a jar and at the end of Lent - I am going to take it to a battered women and children's shelter.5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Lent is more of a cultural thing in the UK, I think. Plenty of non-Christians give something up, to practice new habits or get rid of something negative in their lives. I'm agnostic but still usually give something up.
This year I might give up ordering from Amazon. They have enough money. I'd rather my money go to small independent businesses.
I really wish people wouldn't make a Lenten sacrifice as a "cultural" thing or in an attempt to improving themselves by changing habits. They should find something different to call it, and not tie it to other people's sacred traditions. It's like a non-Muslim saying they're going on Hajj because they've always wanted to see Saudi Arabia.
Culture and religion and tradition are often intertwined regardless of belief or practice. Your example doesn't really make sense because I don't get the impression that people are just randomly deciding to practice lent...it would seem that people are participating in a tradition that they grew up with in a Christian culture, in Christian families, etc. Just because beliefs change doesn't mean people magically don't identify with traditions and rituals that they may have spent most of their lives engaging in.4
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