Going Vegan

janejellyroll wrote: »

nytrifisoul wrote: »

I wouldn't go straight to vegan. I would start taking out some proteins like beef, pork, poultry. Keep healthier proteins like Fish in your diet. Then eventually work your way to Vegetarian, then Vegan. But take my advice with a grain of salt. I am a huge carnivore. There's proteins out there i would eat if they were legal...

There's really no evidence that there's a benefit to "tapering off" meat consumption and then eventually eliminating the rest of the animal products in your diet.

That isn't to say that it might not be the best approach logistically or emotionally for some individuals -- people tend to vary in how they like to make lifestyle changes or form new habits. But from a nutritional or health point of view, I'm not aware of any evidence showing that there are better health outcomes associated with a gradual transition.

I'm assuming it has more to do with the gastro effects of such a drastic diet change, as Ann described above.

janejellyroll wrote: »

dragon_girl26 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

nytrifisoul wrote: »

I wouldn't go straight to vegan. I would start taking out some proteins like beef, pork, poultry. Keep healthier proteins like Fish in your diet. Then eventually work your way to Vegetarian, then Vegan. But take my advice with a grain of salt. I am a huge carnivore. There's proteins out there i would eat if they were legal...

There's really no evidence that there's a benefit to "tapering off" meat consumption and then eventually eliminating the rest of the animal products in your diet.

That isn't to say that it might not be the best approach logistically or emotionally for some individuals -- people tend to vary in how they like to make lifestyle changes or form new habits. But from a nutritional or health point of view, I'm not aware of any evidence showing that there are better health outcomes associated with a gradual transition.

I'm assuming it has more to do with the gastro effects of such a drastic diet change, as Ann described above.

That can usually be dealt with by reducing fiber. There are no gastric issues, that I'm aware of, that are alleviated specifically by reducing all meat but fish and then going vegetarian and then going vegan. Animal products aren't PREVENTING gastric issues -- people who increase their fiber intake quickly on a diet that includes animal products often report the exact same set of symptoms. You can go vegan overnight and make choices to keep your fiber intake similar to what it was before so you can gradually step it up (if that's the goal).

IMU, there is believed to be a certain amount of microbiome adaptation involved in major dietary changes. I don't have a cite, but there was a tiny study, for example, that looked at microbiome adaptation in a crossover (vegetarians who were willing to switch to omnivory, and vice-versa). It's been a while, but I think that there was adaptation in both directions, although IIRC one of the surprises was that it was more rapid than the researchers had anticipated it might be, on the order of a couple of weeks.

As a practical thing, since most omnivores eat some plant foods, I suspect there might be more digestive distress in the vegetarian-to-omnivore conversion, vs. in the other direction, but I have zero evidence to support that, other than the experience that if I accidentally eat something with meat broth in it, I've sometimes realized that via digestive distress after the fact, unknowing at the time of eating.

Would it be better to switch gradually from omnivore to fully plant-based? It would be interesting to see research about whether there's something in efficiency of amino acid metabolization, for example, but I doubt it's a profound worry, as a practical thing.

For sure, the "eat lots more fiber" thing seems - anecdotally, based on threads here - to be a problem for a fair percentage of people, comfort-wise. But that's unrelated to the meat-or-not issue.

janejellyroll wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

dragon_girl26 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

nytrifisoul wrote: »

I wouldn't go straight to vegan. I would start taking out some proteins like beef, pork, poultry. Keep healthier proteins like Fish in your diet. Then eventually work your way to Vegetarian, then Vegan. But take my advice with a grain of salt. I am a huge carnivore. There's proteins out there i would eat if they were legal...

There's really no evidence that there's a benefit to "tapering off" meat consumption and then eventually eliminating the rest of the animal products in your diet.

That isn't to say that it might not be the best approach logistically or emotionally for some individuals -- people tend to vary in how they like to make lifestyle changes or form new habits. But from a nutritional or health point of view, I'm not aware of any evidence showing that there are better health outcomes associated with a gradual transition.

I'm assuming it has more to do with the gastro effects of such a drastic diet change, as Ann described above.

That can usually be dealt with by reducing fiber. There are no gastric issues, that I'm aware of, that are alleviated specifically by reducing all meat but fish and then going vegetarian and then going vegan. Animal products aren't PREVENTING gastric issues -- people who increase their fiber intake quickly on a diet that includes animal products often report the exact same set of symptoms. You can go vegan overnight and make choices to keep your fiber intake similar to what it was before so you can gradually step it up (if that's the goal).

IMU, there is believed to be a certain amount of microbiome adaptation involved in major dietary changes. I don't have a cite, but there was a tiny study, for example, that looked at microbiome adaptation in a crossover (vegetarians who were willing to switch to omnivory, and vice-versa). It's been a while, but I think that there was adaptation in both directions, although IIRC one of the surprises was that it was more rapid than the researchers had anticipated it might be, on the order of a couple of weeks.

As a practical thing, since most omnivores eat some plant foods, I suspect there might be more digestive distress in the vegetarian-to-omnivore conversion, vs. in the other direction, but I have zero evidence to support that, other than the experience that if I accidentally eat something with meat broth in it, I've sometimes realized that via digestive distress after the fact, unknowing at the time of eating.

Would it be better to switch gradually from omnivore to fully plant-based? It would be interesting to see research about whether there's something in efficiency of amino acid metabolization, for example, but I doubt it's a profound worry, as a practical thing.

For sure, the "eat lots more fiber" thing seems - anecdotally, based on threads here - to be a problem for a fair percentage of people, comfort-wise. But that's unrelated to the meat-or-not issue.

I do wish there were some good studies on this. Anecdotally, I've been helping out newer vegans for a while and I've never encountered reports of issues from someone who eliminated animal products quickly but kept their fiber level relatively stable. Most gastric issues that I've heard of were clearly related to fiber, not just an issue with no longer having animal products in the diet. Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

What you report about longer-term vegans/vegetarians feeling ill when they accidentally consume something with meat or dairy, that is also something I've heard of. I have accidentally consumed meat stock or cheese a few times over the years and fortunately it has never been an issue for me, but I've heard it from enough other people that I know it can happen. Of course, you've been vegetarian much longer than I've been vegan. I shouldn't assume it would never happen to me.

I suspect the reaction to unaccustomed foods, generally, is somewhat individualized. I rarely have stomach issues with foods, but sometimes lower digestive tract (just in general, not meat-specific) so may be a little more sensitive than average in that regard. It's never been a huge problem for me, more at the "hmmm, weird symptoms, wonder if there was broth in that casserole?" kind of thing. If I were to go back to eating meat, I'd phase it in gradually, just in case.

Like I said, I wouldn't expect the omni to vegan switch to have much in the way of digestive/intestinal consequences for most people, or any physiological issues really, apart from the fiber question, at otherwise fairly similar nutritional intake. Seems like common sense that the more radical the change, the more likely to be consequences (somewhat individualized), but most omnivores do eat plant foods, so probably NBD in adaptation terms.

AnnPT77 wrote: »

On the overall "is meat unhealthful" subject, this is an interesting overview of a relevant study, from someone with strong credentials in nutritional science:

https://youtu.be/g-upzvuwAng

That was interesting, and answered my long wondered questions about if it was red meat itself that increases cancer risk, or the absence of fruit and vegetables, as well as the importance of type of red meat, i.e., hot dogs vs rib eye.

AnnPT77 wrote: »

kshama2001 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

On the overall "is meat unhealthful" subject, this is an interesting overview of a relevant study, from someone with strong credentials in nutritional science:

https://youtu.be/g-upzvuwAng

That was interesting, and answered my long wondered questions about if it was red meat itself that increases cancer risk, or the absence of fruit and vegetables, as well as the importance of type of red meat, i.e., hot dogs vs rib eye.

Thank Psulemon (who I didn't tag because I'm betting he has enough to take up his time). He posted it on another thread.

You are welcome.