Mental Health and Weight Loss: The Right Balance
shel80kg
Posts: 161 Member
I would like to explore the strategies that you are using to move forward in having healthy relationships with your body, with food and with the idea of "loosing" weight. One question that has really challenged me over the years is whether mental health factors link directly to how we create, establish, maintain and worry about how heavy we are. Do we use our bodies as a barometer of how we truly feel about ourselves? Do you we use weight as a protective measure in certain cases? Do we give up on our bodies and use food as a type of comfort or friend? I would really love to know what you think if you are comfortable sharing. Clearly, dieting in the conventional sense does not work for a lot of us. Why not? The "Gurus" tell us that, notwithstanding any metabolic problems that we face due to disease, genetics etc...it is just a matter of "Calories In and Calories out". If it is this simple, than why is it so hard for some of our brains to turn on to this simple mathematical reality? What goes on in our deeper minds to avoid, discourage and perhaps even sabotage our hard work? Look forward to hearing from you friends.
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Loaded question. First 3 questions gets a big yes each from me. My whole being has always centered around how big I felt myself to be. People didn't like me because I was overweight. I hated myself and didn't want to be seen out in public because of body size. I didn't dare do anything, such as bowling, horse-back riding, shopping(the worst!), etc., because I was embarrassed by my weight. I've always had the struggle of feeling self-conscious; as a child I was chubby and got picked on a lot by strangers. That set a precedent of how I felt about myself all through childhood, teens, adult.
Up until maybe 10 years ago when I lost 85 lbs and it's been a battle to keep most of it off. Food was my comfort all the time, creating a vicious cycle. And yes to the protective measures because I always remember feeling people didn't like me because of being fat. When in all honesty, it was how I acted around others because of the way I felt about myself. I never talked, always looked ashamed, down at the ground. People have come out of the woodwork and said they thought I was stuck-up.
I think our brains know it's CICO but we're always looking for that quick fix, magic bullet, 'this one diet plan will work where the other 10 failed'. My brain knows better but constantly has struggles with my emotions, trying to tell me lies like just one bite won't matter, I'll feel better, I need this whole pizza/2 servings of macaroni and cheese/3 pieces of cake, blah blah. I *can* stop at one my brain tells me. But my emotions feel out to lunch some times and those are what I struggle to corral without extra food.
I do a lot of self-talk nowadays. Instead of saying 'I *need* this' I say 'my body needs this'. And it usually leads to making better choices. I still allow foods I feel a craving for but it's not out-of-this-world stuff my face until I feel fat and bloated anymore.
Good luck with your challenges everyone!! It's within all of our abilities to get where we want to be. One meal at a time.
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A deep question.
According to eastern philosophies our mind constantly seeks pleasure and happiness, it is in its nature. Not only that but we want immediate pleasure. This insatiable appetite to feel good is part of who we are. Hence in a 'depressed state of mind' one tends to eat more, escape into food, to have some happiness. We also want to look good, when I look into the mirror or step on the scale and I like what I see it gives me pleasure. Losing weight is great having a lean body from obese feels good but it doesn't happen overnight, and in most cases takes massive effort. Effort that is likely very challenging. Much like giving up an addiction like cigarettes or alcohol or drugs. The end result will give a lot of pleasure and happiness but the road to get there -in most cases- will be hard and takes time. This constant fight between what makes me feel good right now and what is good for me long term is a tough one, and takes a lot of mental strengths.
Ultimately though if one believes the Buddha all of this is irrelevant, everything is temporary including our own happiness or sadness, since they depend on outside factors, that we have very little to no influence at all, like aging or becoming ill. Real happiness comes from the inner mind that is 'not dependent' from factors like how we look or even feel.
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I agree with the previous posts, but I do want to reiterate that it is about calories in and calories out.
I had to separate food from emotions and that was a long process for me.
To me, many years after my weight loss, the most important things are 1. Log food. 2. Eat ENOUGH of the right balance of macros and nutrient so binges stop 3. Move more, on a daily basis. 4. Eliminate as many stressors in my life as possible. That includes people, type of job, internal judgements.12 -
Exactly. I am actually having an interesting problem now. I separated my emotions from food, kept it mathematical and was able to drop 80 lb and now that I am moving out of losing weight and into building muscle I am having trouble psychologically making sure that I'm eating enough calories. I have the opposite problem now. So it seems that even though the mind is deeply impacted by emotions and tied deeply with food this can be reversed even to the point to where you have the opposite problem. At least in my case it seems as such. So I guess the point being we are stronger than we think, make sure to know thyself and keep yourself accountable with your logs and your routines and your checks on mental health.1
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Lots of things are "simple," but challenging to implement due to competing priorities or emotional issues.
I guess I don't see a contradiction between the understanding that weight loss is created by consuming fewer calories than one uses and the understanding that actually consistently doing this can be hard day to day.
I personally don't think I've used my body as a barometer or used weight as a protective measure, although I know some people do have this insight about themselves.
It's just very easy to prioritize a short term goal or pleasure over a longer term one. That's what I had to get over.9 -
I would like to explore the strategies that you are using to move forward in having healthy relationships with your body, with food and with the idea of "loosing" weight. One question that has really challenged me over the years is whether mental health factors link directly to how we create, establish, maintain and worry about how heavy we are. Do we use our bodies as a barometer of how we truly feel about ourselves? Do you we use weight as a protective measure in certain cases? Do we give up on our bodies and use food as a type of comfort or friend? I would really love to know what you think if you are comfortable sharing. Clearly, dieting in the conventional sense does not work for a lot of us. Why not? The "Gurus" tell us that, notwithstanding any metabolic problems that we face due to disease, genetics etc...it is just a matter of "Calories In and Calories out". If it is this simple, than why is it so hard for some of our brains to turn on to this simple mathematical reality? What goes on in our deeper minds to avoid, discourage and perhaps even sabotage our hard work? Look forward to hearing from you friends.
You're making assumptions, I think, as if we were all similar, in terms of how and why we got fat, stayed fat, etc. There's huge diversity.
Mostly, I'm with @janejellyroll.
Mental health factors can be hugely important for many people, in many ways, and of course can increase the challenge involved in managing bodyweight. Personality also matters, in terms of what influences weight management, even if not really a "mental health issue". We all have preferences, strengths, limitations, and need to recognize those and consider them in our personal strategies for accomplishing *any* goal.
My main problem was that food tastes good, I like pleasure, and I wasn't very good at balancing my current self's desires for all the yummy food with my future self's need to be healthy and at a reasonable bodyweight. Calorie counting was the perfect tool to balance those needs. On top of that, I tend to data geekery, so calorie counting is/was like a fun science fair experiment. Win!
I liked my body when I was fat (class 1 obese), because it could do all kinds of fun things, and life would be . . . um, unsatisfying? . . . without a body, eh? I like my body thin, now, too, and it can do even more things, is healthier, and feels even better in diverse ways. That's pretty excellent, worth hanging onto.
I do have what some consider to be "metabolic problems": Age (65), menopausal status (early onset, besides), severe hypothyroidism (treated). I also have other health nonsense: Cancer history, arthritis in back & knees, torn meniscus, upper left quadrant scar tissue and cording from surgery and radiation therapy that involves some movement constraints, various consequences from chemotherapy (cognitive changes, super mild peripheral neuropathy, etc.), early-stage COPD, sleep apnea, etc. The only point in thinking about "obstacles" IMO is to consider how to get around, over, through or otherwise past them. Focusing on the obstacle, beyond that, is a waste of time and emotional energy, if they're not changeable. (I don't like drama.)
It's been decades since I cared whether I was cute looking: I'm inside here, don't much have to look at myself. If other people don't like me, that's their problem. I don't need to give them free rent in my head. 🤷♀️
For me, the whole question is a little navel-gaze-y. But I'm really not very complicated, subtle.
BTW: I disagree with the bolded. The folks I'd say consider themselves "diet gurus", and whom others most often refer to that way, IMO spout all kinds of complicated nonsense to confuse the issues, like that there are specific foods or nutrients that are doom, that we're hapless victims of giant evil corporations, that we need to manipulate our food intake in complicated ways (that natural selection never had a reason to install) in order to manage weight, that we need to do specific kinds of exercise and switch them up regularly in order to burn calories or get fit, and all manner of other nonsense. The "gurus" need this to be complicated and arcane, in order to keep selling us stuff. At the mechanics level, it's not complicated: It's calorie balance. There's not a great sales proposition in it for the "gurus", if we can do it ourselves. They complicate, obfuscate.
*How* to achieve calorie balance, as a human with strengths, weaknesses, a complicated life, a cultural background that may distract, emotions around food, a physical being that natural selection tuned up in times of famine rather than surplus, and more . . . that part can be difficult, sure.11 -
I will second what others have said in that I don't think mental health factors play a significant role for everyone who is or has been overweight, but it did for me. I think when we view weight loss as "simple" as calories in/calories out, we forget that we're not simple machines, but human beings with emotions, different experiences, differing impulse control circuitry and differences in how we perceive internal sensations (e.g.., hunger and fullness).
I have struggled with depression and anxiety, and this probably started in childhood. No trauma or anything, just how I'm wired, I think. I also have been struggling with my weight since I was a kid; not a huge kid, but definitely on the chubby side and bigger than most of my friends. For a long time, I tied my self-worth to my weight, and probably still do a bit to this day--even having been at a healthy weight for quite some time now. I don't think I have ever used excess body weight as a protective measure. In fact, most of the time it made me more self-conscious (and I don't like attention, generally).
I have definitely used food to cope with uncomfortable emotions, anxiety probably being the 1st, boredom the 2nd (although probably what I though was boredom was actually anxiety). I struggled with binge eating in my 20's, to the point I sought out therapy and Overeater's Anoynmous meetings. I just recently realized that having had some other impulse-control/OCD type behaviors even as a kid, it was all related.
I am happy to say I no longer struggle with weight, although at times may start to use food to cope with uncomfortable emotions. I'm now at a weight I never thought I would be, but don't feel deprived--it's just how I am now. To be successful, though, I most definitely had to change my mindset about how I viewed myself and my relationship with food, which can still be a work in progress. There are times when I doubt that I'll be able to maintain this loss, but I do know I prefer eating mostly healthy foods.
I'd also like to add that I think WHAT we eat can impact our mental health, especially in those of us who are prone to mental health problems. There has been a lot of research done on the gut-brain connection, and if our stomachs often don't feel great (either due to eating too much or too much of the wrong stuff), it makes sense it would affect our mood. I've recently discovered how much of the different types of food I am/was eating impact my overall mood (among other things).6 -
I have read the responses and wonder if some of us find it difficult to operationalize the intelligent ideas and suggestions apparent in the above postings. I remember thinking as I read through the opinions that there may be a reluctance to link "mental health" to body image, patterns established which lead to unhealthy choices regarding food and a general sense of being overwhelmed by separating emotions from thoughts and seeing food as fuel rather than a source of comfort/love or just pleasure. To go one step further, I think there is a risk that those of us who are, remain or return to being overweight, feel judged and even devalued by the lack of sensitivity to how mood disorders, trauma-related conditions (i.e.PTSD, Complex PTSD) and others may contribute to obesity. To simplify my observation, saying to some of us who are truly struggling with weight related issues just count calories, use MFP and keep it basic and "simple" is not unlike suggesting that drinking more than recommended quantities of alcohol may lead to a range of physical and emotional difficulties (to say the least).I know some of us can just interfere with behavioral patterns and make better choices. I am interested in the subset of our overweight cohort that may be struggling with deeper issues which impact on self-care; emotional regulation and valuing the self. Certainly, there needs to be a degree of empathy and insight which extends to some of us who have struggled despite the health "experts" who promulgate science and robotic responses.1
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I though I would add a few more thoughts and then ask a question. Firstly, the weight management industry of which MFP exists within has some wonderful resources and recommendations which can offer a meaningful pathway towards eating in a healthy manner and experiencing great results in achieving the desired outcomes. This is a great contribution for those of us that can follow the formulas and scientifically-based prescriptions for food selection, calorie counting, exercise and honest recordings. However, those of us that have been impacted by mental health factors which interfere with clear thinking, basic problem solving and sensible choices may be extremely challenged to adhere to the repetitive "mantras" espoused by the people who have already achieved success and feel confident enough in their own success to preach the gospel to the masses. Why is it that obesity is increasing with all of this great information and the plethora of these knowledgeable folks who run the forums and the services such as this one? Where is the system breaking down and how is it possible that we are struggling more than ever with getting fatter as a general population and at younger ages? Please let me know what your thoughts are. Thank you in advance for not just rushing your answers in a defensive manner. Just give this some thought and please share what you really think.
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The food industry in the USA was apparently worth 6.2 trillion dollars in 2019. That is a lot of food to sell. Its main focus is to make profit not make people healthy. Thing is if today everyone started eating healthy, this food industry would collapse in no time, probably millions of people would lose their jobs as well. To sell their stuff they do massive advertisement campaigns spending probably billions on them. And these adds are effective, I am having trouble to convince my own kid to eat healthy, he thinks I am basically a 'boomer' who dont know s.h.i.t-sorry for the expletive. Sure there is the MFP and others, and they are great, but they are miniature compare to the large multi national corporations. To this consider that our western society has never been so wealthy as today. There is money everywhere, even the poorest will be able to spend money on food, starvation at least in the west is non-existent, which is a good thing, if only that money was spent on healthy foods...
And than they will tell you that being fat is completely fine as long as 'you like being you', dont even know what to say to that...LOL I think I ranted enough for today.6 -
For thought, why is it that people are more willing to look inward to life's problems/situations when figuring out why they smoke cigarettes, than they are when they are trying to figure out why they allow themselves to eat too many calories?One question that has really challenged me over the years is whether mental health factors link directly to how we create, establish, maintain and worry about how heavy we are.
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southkonahi wrote: »
For thought, why is it that people are more willing to look inward to life's problems/situations when figuring out why they smoke cigarettes, than they are when they are trying to figure out why they allow themselves to eat too many calories?One question that has really challenged me over the years is whether mental health factors link directly to how we create, establish, maintain and worry about how heavy we are.
I think this is a good way to look at it.
For me, it was really freeing, actually, to look at my overeating as just another kind of vice. Not to punish myself for it (which is a huge temptation), but to treat it more distantly. If I want to stop feeling beholden to a particular kind of vice, what virtue can I practice instead that will help me overcome it? Gluttony can be overcome by practicing temperance, and sloth by industriousness (we used to use the word "industry" but that has a much more narrow meaning now). I've done this in other areas of my life, now I just apply to it to what I eat too. It's actually not that different, but I was making it bigger in my head.
One of the things that I think can be sticky about weight loss is that being overweight or obese is obvious to other people. Many if not most other bad habits, flaws, or vices can be hidden in whole or in part from at least some of the people we come into contact with on a regular basis. I think that's one reason our society can be so weirdly sensitive about it.4 -
I really appreciate everyone's comments. I have been looking through other threads and comments from the Gurus here at MFP. I have a sense that the standard "party line" is that one should side-step the temptation to delve into mental health issues and just swim on the surface of the simplistic (yet difficult to implement for some) the rules of the weight management game. Count your calories, be honest with your food log and work withn the framework of the mathematics of CICO. No real attention to the type of calories (are they all really the same)? and no real thought to what barriers might exist in the minds of people who eat regardless of the impacts and at the same time reach out of help and strategies that might make their life easier. Although I value the time spend by the "experts", do they really help when the issues may not be about the repetitive references to the science of weight management and obvious steps everyone thinks we should follow. I may sound a bit down about the help but sometimes it just seems so futile. (or maybe that is just mean).2
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So much of this stuff is mental. It is all about behavior. @Ninerbuff is one of my favorites around this joint. He makes so easy that even a child can understand it. Don't be discouraged, just hang around and find your own
favorites who can show you the way. They make it fun. Really.
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I really appreciate everyone's comments. I have been looking through other threads and comments from the Gurus here at MFP. I have a sense that the standard "party line" is that one should side-step the temptation to delve into mental health issues and just swim on the surface of the simplistic (yet difficult to implement for some) the rules of the weight management game. Count your calories, be honest with your food log and work withn the framework of the mathematics of CICO. No real attention to the type of calories (are they all really the same)? and no real thought to what barriers might exist in the minds of people who eat regardless of the impacts and at the same time reach out of help and strategies that might make their life easier. Although I value the time spend by the "experts", do they really help when the issues may not be about the repetitive references to the science of weight management and obvious steps everyone thinks we should follow. I may sound a bit down about the help but sometimes it just seems so futile. (or maybe that is just mean).
I think you are being a bit mean to be honest, you are looking for something that you are not going to get from a free internet forum. Remember that everyone who posts on here is a person voluntarily giving up their time to try to be helpful and offer some mutual support. As users we have no way of knowing whether a person has any level of expertise at all, apart from an interest in the subject and some personal experience.
It would not be appropriate for them to offer any kind of counselling or medical advice. Very often I see people suggest that posters might like to seek counselling or see their Dr for that advice.
And of course everyone has different strategies that will work for them, it is up to us to work through a few to find what suits us.
In terms of types of calories - they really are all the same in terms of weight management. Where it has an impact is nutrition and how full you feel afterwards. How full you feel clearly has an impact on how much you want to eat later.
For example - Breakfast often comes up on here. Sometimes people suggest skipping breakfast so their first meal is lunch and they divide their calories accordingly. Sometimes people suggest eggs for breakfast as protein makes them feel full. Neither of those things work for me, I'd be chewing of my arm, but that doesn't mean they are not helpful strategies for other people to try.
I'll stick to my bowl of porridge and will happily ignore any suggestion that involve cutting carbs.
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Not for me, no. How I feel about myself dictates how much effort I put into myself, which ties into a number of things, eating and exercising among them.One question that has really challenged me over the years is whether mental health factors link directly to how we create, establish, maintain and worry about how heavy we are. Do we use our bodies as a barometer of how we truly feel about ourselves?
NoDo you we use weight as a protective measure in certain cases?
Absolutely. I also use it as a control mechanism and self harm.Do we give up on our bodies and use food as a type of comfort or friend?
I think that in 99% of cases, it's because the emotion want or expectation does not match the logical thinking. Most of us know/believe that calories in/out is correct, but most of us want to believe that change can happen quickly, that miracle foods do exist, or simply aren't able/willing to spend a year working towards a goal, especially when the changes are small enough and incremental enough that they can be hard to see.Clearly, dieting in the conventional sense does not work for a lot of us. Why not? The "Gurus" tell us that, notwithstanding any metabolic problems that we face due to disease, genetics etc...it is just a matter of "Calories In and Calories out". If it is this simple, than why is it so hard for some of our brains to turn on to this simple mathematical reality? What goes on in our deeper minds to avoid, discourage and perhaps even sabotage our hard work? Look forward to hearing from you friends.
I don't think that mental health/emotional issues negate CICO... CICO still works, but all the other factors can make CICO an oversimplified "solution" to weight management.
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So. This may come across as holier than thou and that is not my intention, so please bear with me.
I was normal to thin through college. Then I got fat and obese and stayed that way for a couple of decades. I didn't try to diet during that time. I have no history with trying and failing to lose weight. I never hated myself when I was fat or obese. I have anxiety issues in general, but it's unrelated to my body/body image. My size/weight never lowered my self-confidence further or stopped me from doing anything I wanted to do. I never, truthfully, cared or really thought about it. I just didn't really think about it, to be honest.
I just hit this point and said 'I'm done', lost weight and have kept it off. No real struggle in changing things or dropping it, to be honest.
My only real emotional issue with food was pretty straight forward -- I had some poverty related food insecurity issues so every time I ate might be the last time I'd see food, and buying 'treat' (not just sugar or fat but eating out or buying a candybar from the grocery store) as a sign of financial security.
Then I tracked my food, first for protein and then for calories, and went 'aha, there's the issue', realized I was doing the above and cut my calories and that was that. Dropped 42 lbs, from obese to normal BMI with some pretty minimal issues and no strife.
So. Yeah. I think for a lot of people there are a lot of mental health things in play that can get in the way and make people want more 'magical' solutions. Because their relationship with those things - food, eating, body images, expectations of failure - make it all much harder.5 -
I though I would add a few more thoughts and then ask a question. Firstly, the weight management industry of which MFP exists within has some wonderful resources and recommendations which can offer a meaningful pathway towards eating in a healthy manner and experiencing great results in achieving the desired outcomes. This is a great contribution for those of us that can follow the formulas and scientifically-based prescriptions for food selection, calorie counting, exercise and honest recordings. However, those of us that have been impacted by mental health factors which interfere with clear thinking, basic problem solving and sensible choices may be extremely challenged to adhere to the repetitive "mantras" espoused by the people who have already achieved success and feel confident enough in their own success to preach the gospel to the masses. Why is it that obesity is increasing with all of this great information and the plethora of these knowledgeable folks who run the forums and the services such as this one? Where is the system breaking down and how is it possible that we are struggling more than ever with getting fatter as a general population and at younger ages? Please let me know what your thoughts are. Thank you in advance for not just rushing your answers in a defensive manner. Just give this some thought and please share what you really think.
This will not apply to everyone, but I think a big reason a lot of people are overweight is because they want to be slender but they don't wish to live like a slender person (whatever that looks like in practice for them). In an environment where many of us find it easy to be sedentary and we have ready access to calorie-dense foods, it takes daily choices for many of us to maintain a healthy body weight. Some people just aren't willing to make those choices. I myself was in that group for years -- I was looking for a secret trick or a quick fix . . . anything but just the daily reality of matching my calorie consumption to my energy use.
Someone can KNOW how to do something but still not really and truly want to do it.10 -
I really appreciate everyone's comments. I have been looking through other threads and comments from the Gurus here at MFP. I have a sense that the standard "party line" is that one should side-step the temptation to delve into mental health issues and just swim on the surface of the simplistic (yet difficult to implement for some) the rules of the weight management game. Count your calories, be honest with your food log and work withn the framework of the mathematics of CICO. No real attention to the type of calories (are they all really the same)? and no real thought to what barriers might exist in the minds of people who eat regardless of the impacts and at the same time reach out of help and strategies that might make their life easier. Although I value the time spend by the "experts", do they really help when the issues may not be about the repetitive references to the science of weight management and obvious steps everyone thinks we should follow. I may sound a bit down about the help but sometimes it just seems so futile. (or maybe that is just mean).
I don't know if it is realistic to expect forum users to diagnose someone's mental health conditions (if they exist) and then provided targeted advice to overcome it and meet their weight management goals.
Weight management is basically a logistical problem. Individuals may have various challenges doing what they need to do. Some problems are relatively easy to crowd-source solutions for. Others are going to require individual attention and work. I don't think anyone is looking to "side-step" anything, it's just that people have realistic ideas of their own capabilities.
I feel very comfortable giving someone tips on how to weigh pasta or eat while training for a marathon. If we're talking about engrained habits of self-sabotage or self-harm, I'm not really in my element.
If someone's barriers to weight loss are the same as mine, I may have some useful tips. Beyond that, not really.
(P.S., it's a common myth that people here believe calories are all the same in the sense that food choice is irrelevant. In my six or so years here, I actually haven't seen anyone argue that foods are identical in nutritional content. Calories ARE all the same. But foods are made up of more than calories -- they contain macro- and micronutrients and nobody argues that isn't also relevant when making food choices).8 -
This is my first contribution to this thread. I agree that there are some serious systemic issues with food, mental health, relationships, etc. in general Western culture. That said, I think sometimes we can over-philosophize and end up basically justifying a kind of learned helplessness. I don't have to fix the system for everyone before I can begin working on myself. Maybe I'm misreading you, and if so I apologize, but as I was reading I was reminded of my own tendency to do this and I felt like I should say something about it. Thinking about it is good! And interesting. I love thinking about stuff. But thinking is also not doing, and not sufficient by itself if change is required.
I live a pretty counter cultural lifestyle, deliberately, because I think it's better for me and for my family. I actually didn't start with overeating - I did a lot of other stuff first, including with food, and saved overeating for last. Probably partly due to denial, a lack of confidence, weird emotional stuff, other things were actually much more urgent priorities in my case, etc. There are a lot of reasons. I also don't think everybody needs to live as I do or prioritize how I did to be a happy, fulfilled, or good person. I'm relieved here that there are lots of different kinds of people (many of whom I would simply never encounter in real life) who can talk about this stuff with expertise, relatively free of judgment. When people post who have obvious mental health concerns, I've been encouraged to see that people suggest, "Hey, maybe talk to someone to work on some of this stuff." But the emotions don't change the science of nutrition. That's a pretty neutral thing.
Sometimes it can feel offensive to people because they're emotionally fragile (or sometimes called "oversensitive.") I'm a very sensitive person. It's taken a lot of time (probably too much, but oh well) for me to realize that some people are just more brief and to the point - I probably never will be, sorry!
It doesn't mean they don't like me or that their information isn't sound. It's just a style. The facts themselves are neutral and true regardless of situation. Maybe some people aren't in a place to apply it yet. But that doesn't change the facts, just how to apply them. 9 -
I really appreciate everyone's comments. I have been looking through other threads and comments from the Gurus here at MFP. I have a sense that the standard "party line" is that one should side-step the temptation to delve into mental health issues and just swim on the surface of the simplistic (yet difficult to implement for some) the rules of the weight management game. Count your calories, be honest with your food log and work withn the framework of the mathematics of CICO. No real attention to the type of calories (are they all really the same)? and no real thought to what barriers might exist in the minds of people who eat regardless of the impacts and at the same time reach out of help and strategies that might make their life easier. Although I value the time spend by the "experts", do they really help when the issues may not be about the repetitive references to the science of weight management and obvious steps everyone thinks we should follow. I may sound a bit down about the help but sometimes it just seems so futile. (or maybe that is just mean).
I think you need to look at more threads
Some posters are told again and again and again over multiple threads by multiple people to get professional help. I try to stay out of or at least not respond to certain posters because I am very frustrated by their refusal to get professional help and am aware that this is triggering me.
Probably those who you are labeling "experts" I refer to as "regulars." The way you are using "expert" includes some presumption of responsibility, which is not the case here. People with high post counts do not consider themselves "gurus" - they are just people who enjoy the forums.
I understand that you have the impression that many posters are saying that "CICO is King." I had that impression when I first joined these forums as well. However, after reading multiple posts by the same people over time I realized that no one thinks nutrition and satiety aren't important.13 -
I would like to respond to the last insert (pengionmam...)I respect your opinion and you have correctly described your tendency to be perceived as offensive if/when you imply "learned helplessness" or "hyper-sensitivity" when one is expressing frustration/disappointment with the simplicity of responses to complex challenges inherent in weight management platforms. I am aware that you have only made one contribution to this embryonic thread and I would encourage you to offer further thoughts as you open your mind to the possibility that you could be more flexible in your analysis of my position and stated concerns. Claiming that the "science" of nutrition provides the excuse for simplifying or over-simplifying the reasons for weight gain and the strategies for the contrary continue the misleading tendency to ignore what happens in the minds of many individuals with real struggles in the paradigm.
Learned helpless was used incorrectly in your comments as this (rather dated) psychological principle refers to a "no-win" outcome regardless of how an individual performs a task since the outcome is pre-ordained or predetermined by an external force (Seligman & Maier, 1967;Overmier & Seligman, 1967).. In the studies in which "learned helplessness" was discussed, one group of dogs was given repeated, inescapable shocks while restrained. I'm not sure how my challenges with working through my eating issues relate to this concept.
I think it would be more apt to say that a persistent type of Depression might explain why it is difficult to muster both the motivation and the flexible thinking required to change patterns and initiate more positive responses to change. I am working on this and have made progress. I would just like to acknowledge the effort(s) required rather than attribute the success to following science. That is obvious. What is less obvious and more to the point are the internal battles that need to be waged; and not due to the "sages" that proselytize the gospel of CICI. Rather it is a function of a more positive state of mental health which requires courage and support.
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southkonahi wrote: »
For thought, why is it that people are more willing to look inward to life's problems/situations when figuring out why they smoke cigarettes, than they are when they are trying to figure out why they allow themselves to eat too many calories?One question that has really challenged me over the years is whether mental health factors link directly to how we create, establish, maintain and worry about how heavy we are.
That's not what I did. I looked at smoking as a bad habit which was inconvenient and expensive, and quit.
I didn't find looking inward helpful in managing my excessive drinking. I went to one Smart Recovery Meeting and one Rational Recovery meeting, applied the CBT techniques I learned there, and stopped self-medicating with alcohol. Taking up yoga earlier and continuing with it was also really helpful. (I had tried AA previously, and continued to go over the years with family and friends, and did not find this model helpful to me at all.)
I find not overeating a lot more challenging, as I cannot simply completely abstain from food. Sure, I no longer knock back pints of Ben & Jerry's, but my Addictive Voice finds other ways to get in excessive calories.
However, in December I switched around my macros, created better discipline and habits around logging, and my Happy Scale trend when set on Year is all green.7 -
I would like to respond to the last insert (pengionmam...)I respect your opinion and you have correctly described your tendency to be perceived as offensive if/when you imply "learned helplessness" or "hyper-sensitivity" when one is expressing frustration/disappointment with the simplicity of responses to complex challenges inherent in weight management platforms. I am aware that you have only made one contribution to this embryonic thread and I would encourage you to offer further thoughts as you open your mind to the possibility that you could be more flexible in your analysis of my position and stated concerns. Claiming that the "science" of nutrition provides the excuse for simplifying or over-simplifying the reasons for weight gain and the strategies for the contrary continue the misleading tendency to ignore what happens in the minds of many individuals with real struggles in the paradigm.
Learned helpless was used incorrectly in your comments as this (rather dated) psychological principle refers to a "no-win" outcome regardless of how an individual performs a task since the outcome is pre-ordained or predetermined by an external force (Seligman & Maier, 1967;Overmier & Seligman, 1967).. In the studies in which "learned helplessness" was discussed, one group of dogs was given repeated, inescapable shocks while restrained. I'm not sure how my challenges with working through my eating issues relate to this concept.
I think it would be more apt to say that a persistent type of Depression might explain why it is difficult to muster both the motivation and the flexible thinking required to change patterns and initiate more positive responses to change. I am working on this and have made progress. I would just like to acknowledge the effort(s) required rather than attribute the success to following science. That is obvious. What is less obvious and more to the point are the internal battles that need to be waged; and not due to the "sages" that proselytize the gospel of CICI. Rather it is a function of a more positive state of mental health which requires courage and support.
Learned helplessness research didn't stop with the dogs in the 60's
I think the point of not falling into the trap of learned helplessness when it comes to weight loss is extremely valid. Many times, people believe they cannot lose weight because they are older, or perimenopausal, or post-menopausal, or they have PCOS, or their anti-depressant is associated with weight gain, and on and on and on. Holding these myths as truths can cause someone to give up.
There is more I want to say on this but my sleep meds have kicked in and I need to stop now.11 -
Just wondering if relying on "heavy sleep medication" might be an example of learned helplessness. After all, we have the capacity to sleep and babies do not need to learn this. Perhaps, it is a sign of giving up on going to sleep naturally. Just saying.
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....Or, the application of the concept is (yet again) simplistic and does not account for the ways in which are circadian cycles are altered during our lives. The sleep experts, not unlike the weight management gurus, might offer easy to understand strategies for resuming "normal" or typical sleeping patterns. Tell that to someone with persistent insomnia and note how frustrated he/she may feel knowing what the "science" says but experiencing the sheer frustration with application.
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I suspect that the mistaken application of the principle of learned helplessness isn't want you mean. Consider using the more accurate application of :"victim consciousness" which makes more sense and is more in keeping with the tendency for people to perceive a loss of power and control when in fact one has absolute jurisdiction over what he/she puts in his/her mouth. Having said that, I wonder why it is that individuals with severe eating disorders such as Anorexia Nervosa have the least favourable response to treatment in the entire world of mental health disorders? Not because of learned helplessness
.I think we have to be careful and respectful with our terminology and our tendencies to blame people who are already struggling. But that may be a bridge too far for the people who know everything.1 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I would like to respond to the last insert (pengionmam...)I respect your opinion and you have correctly described your tendency to be perceived as offensive if/when you imply "learned helplessness" or "hyper-sensitivity" when one is expressing frustration/disappointment with the simplicity of responses to complex challenges inherent in weight management platforms. I am aware that you have only made one contribution to this embryonic thread and I would encourage you to offer further thoughts as you open your mind to the possibility that you could be more flexible in your analysis of my position and stated concerns. Claiming that the "science" of nutrition provides the excuse for simplifying or over-simplifying the reasons for weight gain and the strategies for the contrary continue the misleading tendency to ignore what happens in the minds of many individuals with real struggles in the paradigm.
Learned helpless was used incorrectly in your comments as this (rather dated) psychological principle refers to a "no-win" outcome regardless of how an individual performs a task since the outcome is pre-ordained or predetermined by an external force (Seligman & Maier, 1967;Overmier & Seligman, 1967).. In the studies in which "learned helplessness" was discussed, one group of dogs was given repeated, inescapable shocks while restrained. I'm not sure how my challenges with working through my eating issues relate to this concept.
I think it would be more apt to say that a persistent type of Depression might explain why it is difficult to muster both the motivation and the flexible thinking required to change patterns and initiate more positive responses to change. I am working on this and have made progress. I would just like to acknowledge the effort(s) required rather than attribute the success to following science. That is obvious. What is less obvious and more to the point are the internal battles that need to be waged; and not due to the "sages" that proselytize the gospel of CICI. Rather it is a function of a more positive state of mental health which requires courage and support.
Learned helplessness research didn't stop with the dogs in the 60's
I think the point of not falling into the trap of learned helplessness when it comes to weight loss is extremely valid. Many times, people believe they cannot lose weight because they are older, or perimenopausal, or post-menopausal, or they have PCOS, or their anti-depressant is associated with weight gain, and on and on and on. Holding these myths as truths can cause someone to give up.
There is more I want to say on this but my sleep meds have kicked in and I need to stop now.
Yes, this is the kind of thing I was thinking. My response (did threads get merged here because now it looks like I replied twice? I can't remember anymore!) still holds, I think, even (maybe especially) with OP's reply to me. I'm not sure it would be very useful for me to go on much more. I can only speak to my own feelings and experiences. I feel a little bit like I'm being asked to walk into a trap that's been set, only I don't know precisely where it is.
Perhaps, to be blunt, and accept that some just won't like it, I think there are reasons and there are excuses. Part of my own journey has been to realize that I can't control everything, but I can control more than I initially believed about my own behavior even in adverse circumstances. I can spend all the time I like thinking about systemic injustices and studying how brains work and so on, but at some point there's a switch that needs to be flipped that translates all that knowledge and planning into action. Maybe that's exactly what this thread is about - it seems to go off in many directions, which I get because it's a complicated question. I'm still having a hard time pinning down exactly what the objection is to what I said, because I really don't understand it.
You can be really, really smart and still have options and ideas you haven't considered. My suggesting an idea that perhaps you hadn't considered isn't a swipe at you, but just food for thought. I found it useful when someone pointed it out to me. If it isn't useful to you, you are free to disregard it with no ill will on my part. 11 -
So I was actually thinking about this in the shower, heh, and I think where I initially was getting hung up is actually in the thread title. I read it as saying that mental health and weight loss are somehow in opposition to each other. I agree that they do have a relationship, but not that they are opposed. If that is your assertion, then I would guess we're dealing with a fundamental disagreement about what mental health is, which is unlikely to be resolved on the thread. But if I've misunderstood, then we can probably find some common language to discuss it.2
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Just wondering if relying on "heavy sleep medication" might be an example of learned helplessness. After all, we have the capacity to sleep and babies do not need to learn this. Perhaps, it is a sign of giving up on going to sleep naturally. Just saying.
Oh, I wasn't referring to Ambien or anything like that. In fact, I definitely consider it a natural solution.
I'll own that I should have put "sleep meds" in quotes and have erased my original response.
You seem determined to pick a fight, which I find odd in a thread about mental health. I suggest that you own that and either dial it back or we can request that this thread be moved to Debate.17
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