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I'm starting to buy into the X3 Bar System (weights are a waste of time)
Replies
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Most personal trainers follow what the industry promotes without really researching. Again, FUNCTIONAL training was developed for rehabilitation purposes. The fitness industry decided to play off of it to promote more products and sales of equipment.
I work with older people daily and have for more than half my time in the business. Walking and standing need no training. People know how to do this from when they first started standing and walking as a child. And while I hear your point, I can EMPHATICALLY tell you that falls come from one thing first with aged adults.......................lack of muscle strength to hold oneself up. Fit people fall down. Kids fall down. What's the main difference when an aged adult falls? Being able to get back up. Now logically sense will tell you that if you strengthen the legs, calves, glutes and back, the percentage of falling will be reduced pretty significantly. I DON'T train many of my older clients on balance, I train their legs, calves, glutes, hips, and low back DIRECTLY with weighted resistance training in order for the muscles to get stronger. Again functional training is usually directed at people who are needing rehab, coming back from injury, surgery, or were laid up for a long time and muscles atrophied. Once they get that functionality back, any good PT or ortho will tell you that they should RESISTANCE train to improve their muscle strength and function.
Yes but the TIME spent between steps ISN'T trying to balance on one foot 30 seconds at a time. Even people with great core strength and balance who have never rode a surfboard, paddleboard, walked a tight rope, etc. would likely fail keeping balance initially. Point is, you train for whatever your goals are, NOT to appeal to the idea that just cause you're doing means it's much more advantageous when you try something new. When you try something new, REPETITION will accustom one to that particular workout or sport.Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Yes but the overload is two fold. You have CONCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle shortens) and ECCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle lengthens). It's the ECCENTRIC contraction that creates the microtears in muscle (due to the stretching out of muscle and fascia) that cause muscle hypertrophy much more than CONCENTRIC contractions do. You DON'T get eccentric contractions from bands because the tension reduces when the band shortens.Theoldguy1 wrote: »One's muscles grow/get stronger by progressive overload. That being said, the muscles don't know if the resistance use to get the progressive overload is a barbell, dumbbell, resistance band, bodyweight or a cow.
Bands were created for REHABILITATION. As OP stated they are less resistant on the joints which is what you need when you rehabbing an injury or from surgery. The fitness industry just MADE UP workouts and equipment with this idea to make more money. They did the same with balance balls, Bosu balls, etc.
If one is really thinking about it, you can do all the balance, core, functional exercises you want to a T, but how much of it do you really apply to your life? Unless you're an elite athlete, in the majority of cases people don't even apply it to their daily life. For instance, how often is one balancing on one foot on an unstable surface? I get if you're a surfer, skateboarder or skier of some sort, but how applicable is that to the average American who works a 9-5 job?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/eccentric-muscle-contraction
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
To be honest, one is balancing on one foot with each step they take so balance really impact activities of daily living. Now most likely each step isn't on an unstable surface but nice to have the core strength and balance one can improve on via a bit of unstable surface training when the ability to balance on an unstable surface is needed.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The point of balance exercises is to improve ones overall balance and core strength, it reduces falls, especially as people age. It is definitely a functional exercise that is applicable to daily life, probably more so for the average person than a lot of stuff that is done in the gym.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Interesting. My PT includes balance training I believe with all her clients (myself included). I get that everyone walks and stands, but the way she explained it is that it trains the core muscles so that you are more able to maintain balance, especially important as we age.
For example I walk my dogs every day year round and live where we often have slippery sidewalks in winter, so the balance exercises would train me to better maintain my balance to avoid falling. So if I slipped a bit on some ice, or had one of the dogs knock into me, I could automatically right myself more easily, instead of falling.
Makes sense to me, but I guess different trainers have different approaches. Perhaps it is only relevant to the segment of the population who are not likely to partake in heavy resistance training, I'm not sure about that.
And I'll just put this out there. Many ice skating athletes have superb balance. And yet fall. Never intentionally mind you. What they do learn is HOW to fall to reduce injury. When someone slips on ice from walking, they are never aware of it. And inevitably when they slip, the automatic reaction is to brace for a fall. Many will do it by putting their hands out in front or below them to take the impact and many a broken arm and wrists are results. And the reality is if core weakness is an issue, you're MUCH BETTER off training it directly with resistance training THEN going back and checking your balance.
I try not to lose time for my clients on functional training because the majority of the time it doesn't apply to the average person's lifestyle. If a part of the body is weak (IE, like an ankle, knee, etc.) you train it directly to improve it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
Most personal trainers follow what the industry promotes without really researching. Again, FUNCTIONAL training was developed for rehabilitation purposes. The fitness industry decided to play off of it to promote more products and sales of equipment.
I work with older people daily and have for more than half my time in the business. Walking and standing need no training. People know how to do this from when they first started standing and walking as a child. And while I hear your point, I can EMPHATICALLY tell you that falls come from one thing first with aged adults.......................lack of muscle strength to hold oneself up. Fit people fall down. Kids fall down. What's the main difference when an aged adult falls? Being able to get back up. Now logically sense will tell you that if you strengthen the legs, calves, glutes and back, the percentage of falling will be reduced pretty significantly. I DON'T train many of my older clients on balance, I train their legs, calves, glutes, hips, and low back DIRECTLY with weighted resistance training in order for the muscles to get stronger. Again functional training is usually directed at people who are needing rehab, coming back from injury, surgery, or were laid up for a long time and muscles atrophied. Once they get that functionality back, any good PT or ortho will tell you that they should RESISTANCE train to improve their muscle strength and function.
Yes but the TIME spent between steps ISN'T trying to balance on one foot 30 seconds at a time. Even people with great core strength and balance who have never rode a surfboard, paddleboard, walked a tight rope, etc. would likely fail keeping balance initially. Point is, you train for whatever your goals are, NOT to appeal to the idea that just cause you're doing means it's much more advantageous when you try something new. When you try something new, REPETITION will accustom one to that particular workout or sport.Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Yes but the overload is two fold. You have CONCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle shortens) and ECCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle lengthens). It's the ECCENTRIC contraction that creates the microtears in muscle (due to the stretching out of muscle and fascia) that cause muscle hypertrophy much more than CONCENTRIC contractions do. You DON'T get eccentric contractions from bands because the tension reduces when the band shortens.Theoldguy1 wrote: »One's muscles grow/get stronger by progressive overload. That being said, the muscles don't know if the resistance use to get the progressive overload is a barbell, dumbbell, resistance band, bodyweight or a cow.
Bands were created for REHABILITATION. As OP stated they are less resistant on the joints which is what you need when you rehabbing an injury or from surgery. The fitness industry just MADE UP workouts and equipment with this idea to make more money. They did the same with balance balls, Bosu balls, etc.
If one is really thinking about it, you can do all the balance, core, functional exercises you want to a T, but how much of it do you really apply to your life? Unless you're an elite athlete, in the majority of cases people don't even apply it to their daily life. For instance, how often is one balancing on one foot on an unstable surface? I get if you're a surfer, skateboarder or skier of some sort, but how applicable is that to the average American who works a 9-5 job?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/eccentric-muscle-contraction
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
To be honest, one is balancing on one foot with each step they take so balance really impact activities of daily living. Now most likely each step isn't on an unstable surface but nice to have the core strength and balance one can improve on via a bit of unstable surface training when the ability to balance on an unstable surface is needed.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The point of balance exercises is to improve ones overall balance and core strength, it reduces falls, especially as people age. It is definitely a functional exercise that is applicable to daily life, probably more so for the average person than a lot of stuff that is done in the gym.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Interesting. My PT includes balance training I believe with all her clients (myself included). I get that everyone walks and stands, but the way she explained it is that it trains the core muscles so that you are more able to maintain balance, especially important as we age.
For example I walk my dogs every day year round and live where we often have slippery sidewalks in winter, so the balance exercises would train me to better maintain my balance to avoid falling. So if I slipped a bit on some ice, or had one of the dogs knock into me, I could automatically right myself more easily, instead of falling.
Makes sense to me, but I guess different trainers have different approaches. Perhaps it is only relevant to the segment of the population who are not likely to partake in heavy resistance training, I'm not sure about that.
And I'll just put this out there. Many ice skating athletes have superb balance. And yet fall. Never intentionally mind you. What they do learn is HOW to fall to reduce injury. When someone slips on ice from walking, they are never aware of it. And inevitably when they slip, the automatic reaction is to brace for a fall. Many will do it by putting their hands out in front or below them to take the impact and many a broken arm and wrists are results. And the reality is if core weakness is an issue, you're MUCH BETTER off training it directly with resistance training THEN going back and checking your balance.
I try not to lose time for my clients on functional training because the majority of the time it doesn't apply to the average person's lifestyle. If a part of the body is weak (IE, like an ankle, knee, etc.) you train it directly to improve it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Just FYI when I said my "PT" what meant was my licensed physiotherapist, with a masters degree, and 20+ years experience. She is the person I get my training info from.
I don't mean to imply that you can't disagree with her - just that she isn't a random trainer who doesn't do their research.5 -
Most personal trainers follow what the industry promotes without really researching. Again, FUNCTIONAL training was developed for rehabilitation purposes. The fitness industry decided to play off of it to promote more products and sales of equipment.
I work with older people daily and have for more than half my time in the business. Walking and standing need no training. People know how to do this from when they first started standing and walking as a child. And while I hear your point, I can EMPHATICALLY tell you that falls come from one thing first with aged adults.......................lack of muscle strength to hold oneself up. Fit people fall down. Kids fall down. What's the main difference when an aged adult falls? Being able to get back up. Now logically sense will tell you that if you strengthen the legs, calves, glutes and back, the percentage of falling will be reduced pretty significantly. I DON'T train many of my older clients on balance, I train their legs, calves, glutes, hips, and low back DIRECTLY with weighted resistance training in order for the muscles to get stronger. Again functional training is usually directed at people who are needing rehab, coming back from injury, surgery, or were laid up for a long time and muscles atrophied. Once they get that functionality back, any good PT or ortho will tell you that they should RESISTANCE train to improve their muscle strength and function.
Yes but the TIME spent between steps ISN'T trying to balance on one foot 30 seconds at a time. Even people with great core strength and balance who have never rode a surfboard, paddleboard, walked a tight rope, etc. would likely fail keeping balance initially. Point is, you train for whatever your goals are, NOT to appeal to the idea that just cause you're doing means it's much more advantageous when you try something new. When you try something new, REPETITION will accustom one to that particular workout or sport.Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Yes but the overload is two fold. You have CONCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle shortens) and ECCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle lengthens). It's the ECCENTRIC contraction that creates the microtears in muscle (due to the stretching out of muscle and fascia) that cause muscle hypertrophy much more than CONCENTRIC contractions do. You DON'T get eccentric contractions from bands because the tension reduces when the band shortens.Theoldguy1 wrote: »One's muscles grow/get stronger by progressive overload. That being said, the muscles don't know if the resistance use to get the progressive overload is a barbell, dumbbell, resistance band, bodyweight or a cow.
Bands were created for REHABILITATION. As OP stated they are less resistant on the joints which is what you need when you rehabbing an injury or from surgery. The fitness industry just MADE UP workouts and equipment with this idea to make more money. They did the same with balance balls, Bosu balls, etc.
If one is really thinking about it, you can do all the balance, core, functional exercises you want to a T, but how much of it do you really apply to your life? Unless you're an elite athlete, in the majority of cases people don't even apply it to their daily life. For instance, how often is one balancing on one foot on an unstable surface? I get if you're a surfer, skateboarder or skier of some sort, but how applicable is that to the average American who works a 9-5 job?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/eccentric-muscle-contraction
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
To be honest, one is balancing on one foot with each step they take so balance really impact activities of daily living. Now most likely each step isn't on an unstable surface but nice to have the core strength and balance one can improve on via a bit of unstable surface training when the ability to balance on an unstable surface is needed.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The point of balance exercises is to improve ones overall balance and core strength, it reduces falls, especially as people age. It is definitely a functional exercise that is applicable to daily life, probably more so for the average person than a lot of stuff that is done in the gym.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Interesting. My PT includes balance training I believe with all her clients (myself included). I get that everyone walks and stands, but the way she explained it is that it trains the core muscles so that you are more able to maintain balance, especially important as we age.
For example I walk my dogs every day year round and live where we often have slippery sidewalks in winter, so the balance exercises would train me to better maintain my balance to avoid falling. So if I slipped a bit on some ice, or had one of the dogs knock into me, I could automatically right myself more easily, instead of falling.
Makes sense to me, but I guess different trainers have different approaches. Perhaps it is only relevant to the segment of the population who are not likely to partake in heavy resistance training, I'm not sure about that.
And I'll just put this out there. Many ice skating athletes have superb balance. And yet fall. Never intentionally mind you. What they do learn is HOW to fall to reduce injury. When someone slips on ice from walking, they are never aware of it. And inevitably when they slip, the automatic reaction is to brace for a fall. Many will do it by putting their hands out in front or below them to take the impact and many a broken arm and wrists are results. And the reality is if core weakness is an issue, you're MUCH BETTER off training it directly with resistance training THEN going back and checking your balance.
I try not to lose time for my clients on functional training because the majority of the time it doesn't apply to the average person's lifestyle. If a part of the body is weak (IE, like an ankle, knee, etc.) you train it directly to improve it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
May be somewhat of a delimitation thing. Functional training is definitely used with high level trainers with their athletes and not just for rehab. These trainers are using resistance exercises to mimic real world movements n the activity the person is training for.
Sample book from Mike Boyle one of the most respected trainers in the world, often thought of as the "godfather" of functional training for athletes.
1 -
I work with older people daily and have for more than half my time in the business. Walking and standing need no training. People know how to do this from when they first started standing and walking as a child. And while I hear your point, I can EMPHATICALLY tell you that falls come from one thing first with aged adults.......................lack of muscle strength to hold oneself up. Fit people fall down. Kids fall down. What's the main difference when an aged adult falls? Being able to get back up. Now logically sense will tell you that if you strengthen the legs, calves, glutes and back, the percentage of falling will be reduced pretty significantly. I DON'T train many of my older clients on balance, I train their legs, calves, glutes, hips, and low back DIRECTLY with weighted resistance training in order for the muscles to get stronger. Again functional training is usually directed at people who are needing rehab, coming back from injury, surgery, or were laid up for a long time and muscles atrophied. Once they get that functionality back, any good PT or ortho will tell you that they should RESISTANCE train to improve their muscle strength and function.
Yes but the TIME spent between steps ISN'T trying to balance on one foot 30 seconds at a time. Even people with great core strength and balance who have never rode a surfboard, paddleboard, walked a tight rope, etc. would likely fail keeping balance initially. Point is, you train for whatever your goals are, NOT to appeal to the idea that just cause you're doing means it's much more advantageous when you try something new. When you try something new, REPETITION will accustom one to that particular workout or sport.Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Yes but the overload is two fold. You have CONCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle shortens) and ECCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle lengthens). It's the ECCENTRIC contraction that creates the microtears in muscle (due to the stretching out of muscle and fascia) that cause muscle hypertrophy much more than CONCENTRIC contractions do. You DON'T get eccentric contractions from bands because the tension reduces when the band shortens.Theoldguy1 wrote: »One's muscles grow/get stronger by progressive overload. That being said, the muscles don't know if the resistance use to get the progressive overload is a barbell, dumbbell, resistance band, bodyweight or a cow.
Bands were created for REHABILITATION. As OP stated they are less resistant on the joints which is what you need when you rehabbing an injury or from surgery. The fitness industry just MADE UP workouts and equipment with this idea to make more money. They did the same with balance balls, Bosu balls, etc.
If one is really thinking about it, you can do all the balance, core, functional exercises you want to a T, but how much of it do you really apply to your life? Unless you're an elite athlete, in the majority of cases people don't even apply it to their daily life. For instance, how often is one balancing on one foot on an unstable surface? I get if you're a surfer, skateboarder or skier of some sort, but how applicable is that to the average American who works a 9-5 job?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/eccentric-muscle-contraction
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
To be honest, one is balancing on one foot with each step they take so balance really impact activities of daily living. Now most likely each step isn't on an unstable surface but nice to have the core strength and balance one can improve on via a bit of unstable surface training when the ability to balance on an unstable surface is needed.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The point of balance exercises is to improve ones overall balance and core strength, it reduces falls, especially as people age. It is definitely a functional exercise that is applicable to daily life, probably more so for the average person than a lot of stuff that is done in the gym.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This is a terrible digression, but . . .
@ninerbuff, I hope you know I have utmost respect for your experience and knowledge, and appreciate the time you spend here contributing no-nonsense content.
In this case, I think you're overlooking some relevant factors when it comes to aging and balance, things that might make explicit balance exercises worth doing. I agree that muscular strength is a key piece in avoiding falls and related injuries, as is knowing how to fall, just saying that those are not the only pieces.
I had a conversation recently with two friends my age (60s, 70s), all of us active/strong, one who's been lifting regularly (and with great benefit) for over 40 years. We are all finding more balance issues with age. IMO, what it amounts to is that the vestibular system tends to decline with age; also, things like BPPV become more common.
Strength training of many sorts is helpful, high priority for sure if there are deficits, but I think there's also a role for more explicit balance training. I've perceived improvements in my day-to-day capability from working on this (wobble board, single-leg-supported movement, etc. - multi-mode) . I'm not a physiology expert, but I'd speculate that what's happening is that by challenging balance, it's training some of the alternate systems (musculoskeletal system and its reflexes, maybe visual cues to some extent, etc.) to take a more effective role in maintaining balance, compensating for degradation in vestibular function. (I don't think it's about "core strength" in the normal sense, though obviously core strength is a Good Thing.)
So, I think there's value, don't really *know* why, have a hard time believing it's placebo effect, and I do have a bias that we tend to get better at doing things that we train. I wouldn't start with that for someone with obvious muscular-strength deficits, but I think the balance training can help some people on the stronger margin.9 -
Functional training with athletes are MUCH MUCH more extreme than what the average person does. So there may a place for it with them. Because a lot sports do include endurance and conditioning, a lot of functional work done with athletes is going to be LOTS and LOTS of reps along with explosive movements and into balance. NOT even close with what's done in the average gym with the average person.Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Most personal trainers follow what the industry promotes without really researching. Again, FUNCTIONAL training was developed for rehabilitation purposes. The fitness industry decided to play off of it to promote more products and sales of equipment.
I work with older people daily and have for more than half my time in the business. Walking and standing need no training. People know how to do this from when they first started standing and walking as a child. And while I hear your point, I can EMPHATICALLY tell you that falls come from one thing first with aged adults.......................lack of muscle strength to hold oneself up. Fit people fall down. Kids fall down. What's the main difference when an aged adult falls? Being able to get back up. Now logically sense will tell you that if you strengthen the legs, calves, glutes and back, the percentage of falling will be reduced pretty significantly. I DON'T train many of my older clients on balance, I train their legs, calves, glutes, hips, and low back DIRECTLY with weighted resistance training in order for the muscles to get stronger. Again functional training is usually directed at people who are needing rehab, coming back from injury, surgery, or were laid up for a long time and muscles atrophied. Once they get that functionality back, any good PT or ortho will tell you that they should RESISTANCE train to improve their muscle strength and function.
Yes but the TIME spent between steps ISN'T trying to balance on one foot 30 seconds at a time. Even people with great core strength and balance who have never rode a surfboard, paddleboard, walked a tight rope, etc. would likely fail keeping balance initially. Point is, you train for whatever your goals are, NOT to appeal to the idea that just cause you're doing means it's much more advantageous when you try something new. When you try something new, REPETITION will accustom one to that particular workout or sport.Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Yes but the overload is two fold. You have CONCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle shortens) and ECCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle lengthens). It's the ECCENTRIC contraction that creates the microtears in muscle (due to the stretching out of muscle and fascia) that cause muscle hypertrophy much more than CONCENTRIC contractions do. You DON'T get eccentric contractions from bands because the tension reduces when the band shortens.Theoldguy1 wrote: »One's muscles grow/get stronger by progressive overload. That being said, the muscles don't know if the resistance use to get the progressive overload is a barbell, dumbbell, resistance band, bodyweight or a cow.
Bands were created for REHABILITATION. As OP stated they are less resistant on the joints which is what you need when you rehabbing an injury or from surgery. The fitness industry just MADE UP workouts and equipment with this idea to make more money. They did the same with balance balls, Bosu balls, etc.
If one is really thinking about it, you can do all the balance, core, functional exercises you want to a T, but how much of it do you really apply to your life? Unless you're an elite athlete, in the majority of cases people don't even apply it to their daily life. For instance, how often is one balancing on one foot on an unstable surface? I get if you're a surfer, skateboarder or skier of some sort, but how applicable is that to the average American who works a 9-5 job?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/eccentric-muscle-contraction
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
To be honest, one is balancing on one foot with each step they take so balance really impact activities of daily living. Now most likely each step isn't on an unstable surface but nice to have the core strength and balance one can improve on via a bit of unstable surface training when the ability to balance on an unstable surface is needed.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The point of balance exercises is to improve ones overall balance and core strength, it reduces falls, especially as people age. It is definitely a functional exercise that is applicable to daily life, probably more so for the average person than a lot of stuff that is done in the gym.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Interesting. My PT includes balance training I believe with all her clients (myself included). I get that everyone walks and stands, but the way she explained it is that it trains the core muscles so that you are more able to maintain balance, especially important as we age.
For example I walk my dogs every day year round and live where we often have slippery sidewalks in winter, so the balance exercises would train me to better maintain my balance to avoid falling. So if I slipped a bit on some ice, or had one of the dogs knock into me, I could automatically right myself more easily, instead of falling.
Makes sense to me, but I guess different trainers have different approaches. Perhaps it is only relevant to the segment of the population who are not likely to partake in heavy resistance training, I'm not sure about that.
And I'll just put this out there. Many ice skating athletes have superb balance. And yet fall. Never intentionally mind you. What they do learn is HOW to fall to reduce injury. When someone slips on ice from walking, they are never aware of it. And inevitably when they slip, the automatic reaction is to brace for a fall. Many will do it by putting their hands out in front or below them to take the impact and many a broken arm and wrists are results. And the reality is if core weakness is an issue, you're MUCH BETTER off training it directly with resistance training THEN going back and checking your balance.
I try not to lose time for my clients on functional training because the majority of the time it doesn't apply to the average person's lifestyle. If a part of the body is weak (IE, like an ankle, knee, etc.) you train it directly to improve it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
May be somewhat of a delimitation thing. Functional training is definitely used with high level trainers with their athletes and not just for rehab. These trainers are using resistance exercises to mimic real world movements n the activity the person is training for.
Sample book from Mike Boyle one of the most respected trainers in the world, often thought of as the "godfather" of functional training for athletes.
Just saying that in the average gym setting, PT's who focus on training the average client with no injuries on functional exericses are doing so without really realizing what the actual purpose is for doing it. They've read online (how most PT certification is done these days) and maybe watched a few videos. And because there's a lot of equipment like bosu balls, stability balls, bands, etc. in many gym settings, they may feel an obligation to use them. Lol, I mostly use the stability ball for ME to sit on while I watch my clients do things like burpees, mountain climbers, etc. and count.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
I have utmost respect for you as well @AnnPT77 and your knowledge is quite vast. So just to clarify, I WILL use functional training for people do have balance issues. If I have a client who walks really slow it's usually going to be because of fear of losing balance. Knowing how to shift your weight correctly in this sense would require it. But that's really about it. I save all other functional training for any clients I have for rehabilitation. Does it hurt to add it into a regular regimen? Nope. If one can stand one legged on a bosu ball with a steady hold, it's impressive. And it does require some added strength and coordination. How that applies in their daily life is another thing.
I work with older people daily and have for more than half my time in the business. Walking and standing need no training. People know how to do this from when they first started standing and walking as a child. And while I hear your point, I can EMPHATICALLY tell you that falls come from one thing first with aged adults.......................lack of muscle strength to hold oneself up. Fit people fall down. Kids fall down. What's the main difference when an aged adult falls? Being able to get back up. Now logically sense will tell you that if you strengthen the legs, calves, glutes and back, the percentage of falling will be reduced pretty significantly. I DON'T train many of my older clients on balance, I train their legs, calves, glutes, hips, and low back DIRECTLY with weighted resistance training in order for the muscles to get stronger. Again functional training is usually directed at people who are needing rehab, coming back from injury, surgery, or were laid up for a long time and muscles atrophied. Once they get that functionality back, any good PT or ortho will tell you that they should RESISTANCE train to improve their muscle strength and function.
Yes but the TIME spent between steps ISN'T trying to balance on one foot 30 seconds at a time. Even people with great core strength and balance who have never rode a surfboard, paddleboard, walked a tight rope, etc. would likely fail keeping balance initially. Point is, you train for whatever your goals are, NOT to appeal to the idea that just cause you're doing means it's much more advantageous when you try something new. When you try something new, REPETITION will accustom one to that particular workout or sport.Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Yes but the overload is two fold. You have CONCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle shortens) and ECCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle lengthens). It's the ECCENTRIC contraction that creates the microtears in muscle (due to the stretching out of muscle and fascia) that cause muscle hypertrophy much more than CONCENTRIC contractions do. You DON'T get eccentric contractions from bands because the tension reduces when the band shortens.Theoldguy1 wrote: »One's muscles grow/get stronger by progressive overload. That being said, the muscles don't know if the resistance use to get the progressive overload is a barbell, dumbbell, resistance band, bodyweight or a cow.
Bands were created for REHABILITATION. As OP stated they are less resistant on the joints which is what you need when you rehabbing an injury or from surgery. The fitness industry just MADE UP workouts and equipment with this idea to make more money. They did the same with balance balls, Bosu balls, etc.
If one is really thinking about it, you can do all the balance, core, functional exercises you want to a T, but how much of it do you really apply to your life? Unless you're an elite athlete, in the majority of cases people don't even apply it to their daily life. For instance, how often is one balancing on one foot on an unstable surface? I get if you're a surfer, skateboarder or skier of some sort, but how applicable is that to the average American who works a 9-5 job?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/eccentric-muscle-contraction
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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To be honest, one is balancing on one foot with each step they take so balance really impact activities of daily living. Now most likely each step isn't on an unstable surface but nice to have the core strength and balance one can improve on via a bit of unstable surface training when the ability to balance on an unstable surface is needed.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The point of balance exercises is to improve ones overall balance and core strength, it reduces falls, especially as people age. It is definitely a functional exercise that is applicable to daily life, probably more so for the average person than a lot of stuff that is done in the gym.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This is a terrible digression, but . . .
@ninerbuff, I hope you know I have utmost respect for your experience and knowledge, and appreciate the time you spend here contributing no-nonsense content.
In this case, I think you're overlooking some relevant factors when it comes to aging and balance, things that might make explicit balance exercises worth doing. I agree that muscular strength is a key piece in avoiding falls and related injuries, as is knowing how to fall, just saying that those are not the only pieces.
I had a conversation recently with two friends my age (60s, 70s), all of us active/strong, one who's been lifting regularly (and with great benefit) for over 40 years. We are all finding more balance issues with age. IMO, what it amounts to is that the vestibular system tends to decline with age; also, things like BPPV become more common.
Strength training of many sorts is helpful, high priority for sure if there are deficits, but I think there's also a role for more explicit balance training. I've perceived improvements in my day-to-day capability from working on this (wobble board, single-leg-supported movement, etc. - multi-mode) . I'm not a physiology expert, but I'd speculate that what's happening is that by challenging balance, it's training some of the alternate systems (musculoskeletal system and its reflexes, maybe visual cues to some extent, etc.) to take a more effective role in maintaining balance, compensating for degradation in vestibular function. (I don't think it's about "core strength" in the normal sense, though obviously core strength is a Good Thing.)
So, I think there's value, don't really *know* why, have a hard time believing it's placebo effect, and I do have a bias that we tend to get better at doing things that we train. I wouldn't start with that for someone with obvious muscular-strength deficits, but I think the balance training can help some people on the stronger margin.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
Thanks, first I've heard of it. Watched a review Youtube, using in conjunction with its grooved floor mat and three bands. I recently added a generic four-band (Power Guidance) set with anchor and gloves to years of DBs, and like the versatility and portability of bands. I've used an old doorway chin-bar with bands, but have been interested in a few alternative bars and grips I've seen.
At first view I'd consider this X3 System as an add-on rather than replacement for bars, bells or bands. Note that it's narrower than other bars, limiting hand placements and grips and the fixed attachment confines the resistance you can "set" or change on the fly by gripping a band or a wider bar at different places, or by angling a movement to a different plane. Similarly, the floor board anchor fixes width at the bottom, where spreading or narrowing stance is one of the best ways to quickly vary resistance to complete or vary set intensity. At over US $500 on first search, outrageously priced.0 -
Yes but the overload is two fold. You have CONCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle shortens) and ECCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle lengthens). It's the ECCENTRIC contraction that creates the microtears in muscle (due to the stretching out of muscle and fascia) that cause muscle hypertrophy much more than CONCENTRIC contractions do. You DON'T get eccentric contractions from bands because the tension reduces when the band shortens.Theoldguy1 wrote: »One's muscles grow/get stronger by progressive overload. That being said, the muscles don't know if the resistance use to get the progressive overload is a barbell, dumbbell, resistance band, bodyweight or a cow.
Bands were created for REHABILITATION. As OP stated they are less resistant on the joints which is what you need when you rehabbing an injury or from surgery. The fitness industry just MADE UP workouts and equipment with this idea to make more money. They did the same with balance balls, Bosu balls, etc.
If one is really thinking about it, you can do all the balance, core, functional exercises you want to a T, but how much of it do you really apply to your life? Unless you're an elite athlete, in the majority of cases people don't even apply it to their daily life. For instance, how often is one balancing on one foot on an unstable surface? I get if you're a surfer, skateboarder or skier of some sort, but how applicable is that to the average American who works a 9-5 job?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/eccentric-muscle-contraction
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Just being a skier of some sort makes you an elite athlete now? Skateboarder too? That means my brother was an elite athlete and a cigarette smoker at 15.2 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I think I have the same X3 Bar imitation. I like it but it doesn't replace weight lifting, but I've never been into super heavy weights. It's nice to have a deadlift alternative with a crappy knee (I mostly use it for supersetting and work in deadlifts and benches with it). Doesn't feel much more than 125 lbs or so, though. And like others have mentioned, it's only that "weight" when you're at the top of the movement.
@MikePfirrman: and @FiberousJ: what brand do you have? I've had a bad knee for 11 years now and am intrigued by this.
I'm starting physical therapy AGAIN in a few weeks.1 -
That wasn't what I was implying. I was stating that the average person DOESN'T NEED to train on unstable surfaces. For trainers to utilize a members session for that (unless specifically asked for) is really not that constructive to most fitness goals.NorthCascades wrote: »
Yes but the overload is two fold. You have CONCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle shortens) and ECCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle lengthens). It's the ECCENTRIC contraction that creates the microtears in muscle (due to the stretching out of muscle and fascia) that cause muscle hypertrophy much more than CONCENTRIC contractions do. You DON'T get eccentric contractions from bands because the tension reduces when the band shortens.Theoldguy1 wrote: »One's muscles grow/get stronger by progressive overload. That being said, the muscles don't know if the resistance use to get the progressive overload is a barbell, dumbbell, resistance band, bodyweight or a cow.
Bands were created for REHABILITATION. As OP stated they are less resistant on the joints which is what you need when you rehabbing an injury or from surgery. The fitness industry just MADE UP workouts and equipment with this idea to make more money. They did the same with balance balls, Bosu balls, etc.
If one is really thinking about it, you can do all the balance, core, functional exercises you want to a T, but how much of it do you really apply to your life? Unless you're an elite athlete, in the majority of cases people don't even apply it to their daily life. For instance, how often is one balancing on one foot on an unstable surface? I get if you're a surfer, skateboarder or skier of some sort, but how applicable is that to the average American who works a 9-5 job?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/eccentric-muscle-contraction
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Just being a skier of some sort makes you an elite athlete now? Skateboarder too? That means my brother was an elite athlete and a cigarette smoker at 15.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
Using band resistance added to barbells and reverse bands on barbells is a good idea, imo. I don't think I'd like using only bands, though.
They can be pretty unstable, hard on your joints, and if you fail a band resisted bench it literally snaps down on you. I like reverse bands better, personally.0 -
That wasn't what I was implying. I was stating that the average person DOESN'T NEED to train on unstable surfaces. For trainers to utilize a members session for that (unless specifically asked for) is really not that constructive to most fitness goals.NorthCascades wrote: »
Yes but the overload is two fold. You have CONCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle shortens) and ECCENTRIC CONTRACTION (where the muscle lengthens). It's the ECCENTRIC contraction that creates the microtears in muscle (due to the stretching out of muscle and fascia) that cause muscle hypertrophy much more than CONCENTRIC contractions do. You DON'T get eccentric contractions from bands because the tension reduces when the band shortens.Theoldguy1 wrote: »One's muscles grow/get stronger by progressive overload. That being said, the muscles don't know if the resistance use to get the progressive overload is a barbell, dumbbell, resistance band, bodyweight or a cow.
Bands were created for REHABILITATION. As OP stated they are less resistant on the joints which is what you need when you rehabbing an injury or from surgery. The fitness industry just MADE UP workouts and equipment with this idea to make more money. They did the same with balance balls, Bosu balls, etc.
If one is really thinking about it, you can do all the balance, core, functional exercises you want to a T, but how much of it do you really apply to your life? Unless you're an elite athlete, in the majority of cases people don't even apply it to their daily life. For instance, how often is one balancing on one foot on an unstable surface? I get if you're a surfer, skateboarder or skier of some sort, but how applicable is that to the average American who works a 9-5 job?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/eccentric-muscle-contraction
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Just being a skier of some sort makes you an elite athlete now? Skateboarder too? That means my brother was an elite athlete and a cigarette smoker at 15.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Gotcha. You can see how I would be confused. 🙂0
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