Coronavirus prep
Options
Replies
-
14
-
https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2021/07/12/how-did-taiwan-go-from-fortress-impregnable-to-asias-covid-hotspot/
Locally I am still being told things like Covid-19 is fake news and death comes due to fear from the fake news and/or lack of Faith.
After 18 months of reading I have observed only one thing that systematically lowers the risk of death due to COVID-19 anywhere in the world.
Getting vaccinated is the ONLY thing that I see that works on the national level.
Is it a total and absolute solution?
NO!
I have brain and a healthcare education. In my case my brain said Get Vaccinated before a varient comes along that I can't survive.
My household is fully vaccinated but still don't hang out on public places in part due to low vaccination rates locally and in surrounding states. MO is really heating up and I see cars with MO plates in drive through lines all of the time. Next week area McDonald's restarts Dine In.14 -
We have not had one patient with COVID at my hospital in months that was vaccinated. All of the patients that have come in with COVID were unvaccinated, which is very reassuring that the vaccines work well.24
-
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-delta-variant-wont-derail-economy-goldman-sachs-122405944.html
Plus I have seen a few get pushed to get vaccinated due to the Delta news
2 -
1
-
Reference my post above. I realise there can be arguments for opening up, I question the speed at which it was intended. Our population is less than 50% vaccinated. Its the Under 35's who are most exposed to the Delta variant which is outstripping the earlier versions. Delta is more transferable. The under 35's were at the bottom of the vaccination list unless they have health issues. It frightens me, the attitude that the youngsters are at less risk of dying. Even saying fewer are dying from Delta but all things are relative. There is still little we know about covid. We do not know how many of the youngsters are going to have life long residual covid issues, lung damage at the very least. It worries me having been under living for so much of my life till I found the right thyroid support "for me", anything which is a risk to others having to live similarly restricted lives is a risk not worth taking for them and society who when someone is unable or restricted in the hours they can work, holds out a supportive hand in the way of benefits, so to me its better to go carefully rather than let things rip and living with the consequences for years.
The under 5's in England are now in middle of their own winter virus reactions. Ok, its the usual children's chest infections things one sees in the winter but its summer here and many are being hospitalised. The health service is seeing so many children that they expect to have the "winter" peek in August. I was hearing on a medical programme, how Children's departments are training up general nurses to back them up when staffing become critical as happened when covid was rife through the first only the other way about.
We have 50 persons a day dying from Covid now, numbers last seen in January! Thousands of persons testing positive, again numbers not seen since January. So its now the Government were saying the vaccine programme is so good there no need for masks after x date. Fortunately scientists and medics are fighting back. The Mayor of London has declared masks must be worn on pubic transport, this protects their staff. We will have the anomaly that persons traveling on London Transport must wear masks yet those on the same tracks on more distant trains are not so directed as they head into London. For those traveling towards Wales as I type, the expectation is they will not need masks but as soon as they cross the border they are required to wear masks. Hospitals and businesses alike are concerned that the" track and trace network" is alerting people self isolate so the staff are not available in the numbers needed to give the expected services needed.
I spoke to someone yesterday who told me a small north Devon village has its pubs and fish and chip shop closed because some holiday maker had to be admitted to hospital because they traveled there with covid! A community who had kept themselves safe by doing all the advised things suffering these restrictions because someone was selfish enough to travel thoughtlessly.
A couple of weeks ago I was driving through the local large town on a Sunday afternoon, I saw many young men, athletic types, over 50 of them all carrying their skate boards probably from the local park. They were shoulder to shoulder no social distancing, not a face mask to be seen. They were even weaving between the cars as they were crossing the roads. My car windows were closed tight, doors locked, I was fearful for myself though twice vaccinated and those for whom I was responsible for and traveling with me. Irresponsibility then was not condoned but now, it felt like anything goes....................... Now it feels as if Authority now applauds this behavior.14 -
I don't know what to make of these resurgence fears. Are these cases and deaths occurring in unvaccinated people? I just heard an ICU doctor in my area (who has been prominent in the news throughout the pandemic) saying that they haven't had a Covid patient admitted to their ICU in the last 33 days. We have high vaccine coverage here (close to 80%) and everyone over 12 is eligible. The push is on now to get the vaccine hesitant done.
I mean if it is people who are refusing the vaccine who are getting sick then I hate to say it but "too bad so sad" it's your own damn fault for not getting it at this point. I don't think the rest of us need to be subject to measures to protect others when there is an easy way for them to protect themselves, and they are refusing it.
At this point the metrics used for implementing broad public health measures also should be shifting from case counts to hospitalization/death counts. If I am vaccinated and get a mild illness ... then the vaccine is doing what it is designed to.16 -
I don't know what to make of these resurgence fears. Are these cases and deaths occurring in unvaccinated people? I just heard an ICU doctor in my area (who has been prominent in the news throughout the pandemic) saying that they haven't had a Covid patient admitted to their ICU in the last 33 days. We have high vaccine coverage here (close to 80%) and everyone over 12 is eligible. The push is on now to get the vaccine hesitant done.
I mean if it is people who are refusing the vaccine who are getting sick then I hate to say it but "too bad so sad" it's your own damn fault for not getting it at this point. I don't think the rest of us need to be subject to measures to protect others when there is an easy way for them to protect themselves, and they are refusing it.
At this point the metrics used for implementing broad public health measures also should be shifting from case counts to hospitalization/death counts. If I am vaccinated and get a mild illness ... then the vaccine is doing what it is designed to.
amen!5 -
If the above comments are addressing my statements. I realise I am talking about another country, authority and all that.
The latest available daily total (from our Gvt Website) New Cases on 15th July, 48,553 in one day and it rising........ Total cases over the previous week makes 261,823, persons! Its being reported 50% more people are being told to self isolate this week over last. If the test and trace app is registering 4 persons as contacts that's near enough 200,000 a day being told to self isolate in one day. Times by 7 for a week and 1,400,000 out of the work force. Possibly I should have been more explicit. I don't think these numbers are trivial.
These numbers are before many of the many new cases caused by the insanity of so many trying to attend the football final last Sunday when 60000 had tickets and more without tickets, tried to crash into the stadium on the coat tails of unassociated ticket holders, (that stadium is apparently notorious for being easy to gate crash) Then there are people who met up at the local pub, shouting and singing and doing so many things which had been deemed too dangerous. Village choirs still can't join and sing together in the open let along confined spaces!
As yet those people who traveled for the game will not begun to feel unwell it will be a few more days until they have any thought of needing to be tested! That is if they are considerate enough to need to know. How many more people will they infect before the week is out?
Most of the rise in cases this time are under 35, at risk not necessarily by any fault of theirs just the system which did not allow younger folks to be vaccinated. The Delta variant has achieved the ability to be even more infectious, Its less likely to kill but men are more at risk, who knows how many of the young are going to suffer those debilitating long covid reactions, most common is lung damage, effectively removing the up and coming workforce indefinitely, if not permanently from playing their role in the country's and their future plans, its playing with the economy of our country.
So is it being said, Our nation can afford to loose many of these people from our national economic future. We function differently from many countries, in that we contribute to benefits for the, lowly paid, those with long term health issues, and provide the NHS, supposed to be healthcare from the "cradle to the grave" from our National Insurance contribution pot, with a qualifying participation period. Then there is general taxation for education, roads/ and other boring stuff. In years to come this benefits pot could be radically reduced so its unable to be the safety net many have benefited from. This possibility is being encouraged because vaccinated persons should be given the freedom to mix, only how many unvaccinated will go without taking care on the backs of us who have done what I see as my inherent duty to protect others I generally will not come into contact with, I'm keeping a low profile, which I see as doing my bit.5 -
If the above comments are addressing my statements. I realise I am talking about another country, authority and all that.
The latest available daily total (from our Gvt Website) New Cases on 15th July, 48,553 in one day and it rising........ Total cases over the previous week makes 261,823, persons! Its being reported 50% more people are being told to self isolate this week over last. If the test and trace app is registering 4 persons as contacts that's near enough 200,000 a day being told to self isolate in one day. Times by 7 for a week and 1,400,000 out of the work force. Possibly I should have been more explicit. I don't think these numbers are trivial.
These numbers are before many of the many new cases caused by the insanity of so many trying to attend the football final last Sunday when 60000 had tickets and more without tickets, tried to crash into the stadium on the coat tails of unassociated ticket holders, (that stadium is apparently notorious for being easy to gate crash) Then there are people who met up at the local pub, shouting and singing and doing so many things which had been deemed too dangerous. Village choirs still can't join and sing together in the open let along confined spaces!
As yet those people who traveled for the game will not begun to feel unwell it will be a few more days until they have any thought of needing to be tested! That is if they are considerate enough to need to know. How many more people will they infect before the week is out?
Most of the rise in cases this time are under 35, at risk not necessarily by any fault of theirs just the system which did not allow younger folks to be vaccinated. The Delta variant has achieved the ability to be even more infectious, Its less likely to kill but men are more at risk, who knows how many of the young are going to suffer those debilitating long covid reactions, most common is lung damage, effectively removing the up and coming workforce indefinitely, if not permanently from playing their role in the country's and their future plans, its playing with the economy of our country.
So is it being said, Our nation can afford to loose many of these people from our national economic future. We function differently from many countries, in that we contribute to benefits for the, lowly paid, those with long term health issues, and provide the NHS, supposed to be healthcare from the "cradle to the grave" from our National Insurance contribution pot, with a qualifying participation period. Then there is general taxation for education, roads/ and other boring stuff. In years to come this benefits pot could be radically reduced so its unable to be the safety net many have benefited from. This possibility is being encouraged because vaccinated persons should be given the freedom to mix, only how many unvaccinated will go without taking care on the backs of us who have done what I see as my inherent duty to protect others I generally will not come into contact with, I'm keeping a low profile, which I see as doing my bit.
Sorry just to clarify - you mention the NHS so you are in Britain? And people under 35 still aren't allowed to get vaccinated? I thought that you guys were way ahead of the rest on that from the beginning. Where I live we were way behind you in getting the vaccine rolled out, and anyone who doesn't have one by the end of this month (over 12) would have to be actively avoiding it at this point.10 -
I referred to being in England in my post before last. Most who have read me since 2013 will not have missed my being in Britain or the UK or England. So Yes, I'm in Britain!! We may have vaccinated many but there are many more who still need vaccinating. Some how the "gates" were left wide open to the Delta virus which came in from India, we did not mutate this on our own, there is one variant found in Kent and other international place. (I think we copped for being responsible for that one). For a while the Delta virus was confined to the north east and west with their economic depravations, depravations, are not the priority of the north there are greater and smaller pockets across the rest of the country too.
Those under 35 can now get vaccinations but the appointments and availability of vaccine to are finite on a weekly basis and it will take time to cover all those who wish, in the hope of achieving good coverage.
Its the mutation and the risk of more mutations internationally I fear. Many countries are deprived, living in close proximity, in poverty, unable to have what many of us take fore granted. Ultimately everyone needs, preferably upwards of 80%, need to be vaccinated across the world............ So I will wear my mask when I very occasionally have to go to the local indoor shopping precinct and I will do my bit when others around me may not. I'm fortunate, I do have a garden. If I feel unwell, I keep well away from others. Those are my standards and will remain so. Its months since I've seen my sons family.
We've all, to qualify, Most in Britain have gone the full mile and more to keep this thing under control which is why I don't want it to get out of hand again. To need to lock down again will be deplorable. In recent days the Governments, "Eat out to Help out" of last August where vat was removed from restaurant and pub bills up to a level has been sited as the cause of the increase in cases last autumn. Covid could take off again this time the Under 6's are having their own viral crisis. Higher attendance at doctors, hospitals and the like because children are meeting and passing these pent up viruses through the youngsters who have not encountered those. There is a strong possibility that when the children's wards are up against it for these common viruses, so will the adult areas be with more covid cases.
I like personal social responsibility. I'd like to see more of it.
9 -
I referred to being in England in my post before last. Most who have read me since 2013 will not have missed my being in Britain or the UK or England. So Yes, I'm in Britain!! We may have vaccinated many but there are many more who still need vaccinating. Some how the "gates" were left wide open to the Delta virus which came in from India, we did not mutate this on our own, there is one variant found in Kent and other international place. (I think we copped for being responsible for that one). For a while the Delta virus was confined to the north east and west with their economic depravations, depravations, are not the priority of the north there are greater and smaller pockets across the rest of the country too.
Those under 35 can now get vaccinations but the appointments and availability of vaccine to are finite on a weekly basis and it will take time to cover all those who wish, in the hope of achieving good coverage.
Its the mutation and the risk of more mutations internationally I fear. Many countries are deprived, living in close proximity, in poverty, unable to have what many of us take fore granted. Ultimately everyone needs, preferably upwards of 80%, need to be vaccinated across the world............ So I will wear my mask when I very occasionally have to go to the local indoor shopping precinct and I will do my bit when others around me may not. I'm fortunate, I do have a garden. If I feel unwell, I keep well away from others. Those are my standards and will remain so. Its months since I've seen my sons family.
We've all, to qualify, Most in Britain have gone the full mile and more to keep this thing under control which is why I don't want it to get out of hand again. To need to lock down again will be deplorable. In recent days the Governments, "Eat out to Help out" of last August where vat was removed from restaurant and pub bills up to a level has been sited as the cause of the increase in cases last autumn. Covid could take off again this time the Under 6's are having their own viral crisis. Higher attendance at doctors, hospitals and the like because children are meeting and passing these pent up viruses through the youngsters who have not encountered those. There is a strong possibility that when the children's wards are up against it for these common viruses, so will the adult areas be with more covid cases.
I like personal social responsibility. I'd like to see more of it.
Maybe I should have qualified my comment to indicate it was referring to those places where vaccines are readily available, of which I thought Britain was one. I had no idea that your vaccine rollout had excluded those under 35. I do support public health protection measures being in place until everyone who wants a vaccine is able to get one.7 -
I referred to being in England in my post before last. Most who have read me since 2013 will not have missed my being in Britain or the UK or England. So Yes, I'm in Britain!! We may have vaccinated many but there are many more who still need vaccinating. Some how the "gates" were left wide open to the Delta virus which came in from India, we did not mutate this on our own, there is one variant found in Kent and other international place. (I think we copped for being responsible for that one). For a while the Delta virus was confined to the north east and west with their economic depravations, depravations, are not the priority of the north there are greater and smaller pockets across the rest of the country too.
Those under 35 can now get vaccinations but the appointments and availability of vaccine to are finite on a weekly basis and it will take time to cover all those who wish, in the hope of achieving good coverage.
Its the mutation and the risk of more mutations internationally I fear. Many countries are deprived, living in close proximity, in poverty, unable to have what many of us take fore granted. Ultimately everyone needs, preferably upwards of 80%, need to be vaccinated across the world............ So I will wear my mask when I very occasionally have to go to the local indoor shopping precinct and I will do my bit when others around me may not. I'm fortunate, I do have a garden. If I feel unwell, I keep well away from others. Those are my standards and will remain so. Its months since I've seen my sons family.
We've all, to qualify, Most in Britain have gone the full mile and more to keep this thing under control which is why I don't want it to get out of hand again. To need to lock down again will be deplorable. In recent days the Governments, "Eat out to Help out" of last August where vat was removed from restaurant and pub bills up to a level has been sited as the cause of the increase in cases last autumn. Covid could take off again this time the Under 6's are having their own viral crisis. Higher attendance at doctors, hospitals and the like because children are meeting and passing these pent up viruses through the youngsters who have not encountered those. There is a strong possibility that when the children's wards are up against it for these common viruses, so will the adult areas be with more covid cases.
I like personal social responsibility. I'd like to see more of it.
Maybe I should have qualified my comment to indicate it was referring to those places where vaccines are readily available, of which I thought Britain was one. I had no idea that your vaccine rollout had excluded those under 35. I do support public health protection measures being in place until everyone who wants a vaccine is able to get one.
I’m also from the UK (English Midlands). Vaccine availability does seem to vary a bit from one area to another. Here the under 35s are just being called for their second dose, the government are advising an 8 week gap in the hope that immunity will last longer (though I don’t think anyone actually knows what “longer” means). My two younger sons (26 and 29 yrs) had their second dose this week though they were only 4 and 6 weeks respectively from their first dose. They were given the choice to get it before 8 weeks and they decided to do that because they both work public facing jobs and use public transport. With just the first dose only giving about 30% protection from the delta variant and mandatory restrictions coming to an end next week they both felt that it was better to have the second dose now. In their jobs both of them have experienced anti maskers getting up in their personal space and this is just going to get worse once masks are no longer a legal requirement.
I’ve been double vaccinated since the end of March but I work with very vulnerable people who are still more at risk even vaccinated. My eldest son is currently working with people with serious lung conditions. All my family will continue to wear masks in indoor public spaces and on public transport.12 -
Yesterday I was hearing scientists have identified 200+ symptoms associated with long covid. Some persons have conditions similar to ME and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, they are saying covid can get into every system within the body. For now 8 months is the duration of symptoms seem but as time goes on this duration can lengthen. There is so much which we can't know because this is so very new,11
-
In Belgium we have a coverage of 18+: 82% one shot, 56% full. In Flanders where I live it is respectively 88% and 58%. I'm 51 and I'm only getting my second shot today. So yes, we are doing real good in terms of vaccination in general but it takes time.
The issue is with the 18-35 group which has a rate of 68% one shot and only 23% full. Just as in the UK, we only can vaccinate so many and priority has been given to people at risk and elderly. And it is in this young age group that the delta variant is soaring, with already a ten-fold of cases versus last week, but luckily just a few more in hospital.
The danger is not longer hospitals not being able to cope, but the breeding ground the younger age groups form for new variants.
I somehow feel lucky that I live in a region where vaccination willingness is very high as well as compliance to covid protection. But to be safe, the whole world should be vaxed and that is not going to happen any time soon.
I remember someone saying here it would be interesting to follow a smaller group of vaxed people and the testing incidence rate (I don't remember who it was). We also still have a lot of testing going on as it is mandatory to go on holiday, so there still is very valuable and clear data, easy to be interpreted for non-medics and in English: https://datastudio.google.com/embed/reporting/c14a5cfc-cab7-4812-848c-0369173148ab/page/ZwmOB
Loading the pages can sometimes take some time as it is all live data.6 -
https://youtu.be/TP8gsgTFPVc
It seems like the UK is going for herd immunity the old fashion way by removing restrictions. Locally I see more anti vaccine types going the self vaccination route as well and some already are in a world of hurt.
I think most in the UK and USA that want the two shot option have acted so permitting a huge wave over the next 90 days could push us towards herd immunity by end of 2021.
This is a messy way to get to herd immunity but I don't think there's any hope of finding more arms to vaccinate.9 -
Yesterday I was hearing scientists have identified 200+ symptoms associated with long covid. Some persons have conditions similar to ME and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, they are saying covid can get into every system within the body. For now 8 months is the duration of symptoms seem but as time goes on this duration can lengthen. There is so much which we can't know because this is so very new,
One of my close follows on Linkedin also speculated we will see an explosion of Alzheimer's in a few years due to Covid-19. He's among many of the very top scientists in the field that now feel that a virus penetrating the brain barrier causes Alzheimer's. Bottom line is we just don't know what the long terms affects are just yet.
Hope not. Cruel disease. Horrible on the patient and everyone that is immediate family.11 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Yesterday I was hearing scientists have identified 200+ symptoms associated with long covid. Some persons have conditions similar to ME and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, they are saying covid can get into every system within the body. For now 8 months is the duration of symptoms seem but as time goes on this duration can lengthen. There is so much which we can't know because this is so very new,
One of my close follows on Linkedin also speculated we will see an explosion of Alzheimer's in a few years due to Covid-19. He's among many of the very top scientists in the field that now feel that a virus penetrating the brain barrier causes Alzheimer's. Bottom line is we just don't know what the long terms affects are just yet.
Hope not. Cruel disease. Horrible on the patient and everyone that is immediate family.
After dealing with blood clots for 6 months and general weakness still Covid-19 is worse than anything I have experienced. Organ and brain damage can be expected.
17 -
Debate is rife here in the UK this morning about covid particularly the effects of delta version. Our having left the under 30's exposed. By the end of September it is being said, these people will all have been offered the opportunity of two doses| There is even more debate, when to vaccinate children. In one of our most affected areas the health spokes person was advocating vaccinating all children to ensure those in homes of multi generations will be covered. The need for this does not seem to be being listened to.
I realise, from information heard yesterday, there can be a condition in some children where the muscle of the heart becomes inflamed but this is treatable. (Possibly with genetic testing, it is said to be much more easy these days, of those sadly affected, could identify those at risk.) No parent wants any child to become unnecessarily ill the balance which needs to be struck is, is the risk of long covid worse than the risk of an easily treated possible side effect.
I understand so little is known about this virus, less about the variants but there have been other strains which come in under the same umbrella that much is known about, from this it should be possible to extrapolated and anticipate common difficulties. Its true the international community was hotter onto the viruses like Sars in the first place, all knowledge is helpful.
I hate the idea of anyone developing long term conditions, one person doing so it too many. Its is as if those in authority over us are unable to consider the personal and societal costs of long term depilating conditions. That person not being able to function to their original potential then not contributing to society more easily expresses as the dissatisfaction in their lives and the reduction in various taxes possibly even drawing down benefits over their life times.
It seems now the majority of persons in hospital with Covid, particularly the Delta variant across the UK are those 30-40 year olds who had previously seen themselves as healthy, they are replacing the over 80 year olds in facing a dubious future.
The adviser who left Downing Street some months ago, who has since given evidence of Prim Ministerial conduct over covid to some parliamentary committee, is now saying, what many of us thought last year, each time the scientists were saying bring in more controls the action was delayed so the cases and consequences of cases rose more than they need have done. This adviser has evidence of this prevarication is having an interview broadcast later today.
Many of us fear something very similar to that prevarication is happening. Our Delta variant cases are rising week on week. Summer is probably the best time to open up social contacts but set against the NHS being challenged with getting waiting lists for operations and other procedures down. When children's departments are feeling pressures because of childhood respiratory conditions mostly in the under 6 year olds because they have not encountered the various things as they would in other years. Finally when the numbers of covid cases are at the same level as they were in mid January and rising. This is not the right time to throw out the masks as they were saying a week ago.
Its modified to wear a mask if you want to, its down to you, we are no longer telling you what to do. In September it is being said by the PM, anyone attending a Night Club will need evidence of being twice vaccinated, assuming plus two weeks for antibody build up. Reports from Night Clubs, which opened up at 1minute past 12 am on Monday morning, masks were not required not was the vaccination status of attender, nor a covid status test asked for. within two weeks we will have even higher cases then hospitalisations and then.............. back to square one.
10 -
Similar debates in the US. There is a faction advocating for protecting those too young to be vaccinated (under 12 in the US) by vaccinating more eligible adults and masking in localities where the delta variant is surging. The advocates are mostly public health officials and some parents of children under 12. But a lot of people just don't care, including parents. It amazes me that as a species we don't seem to have better self-preservation instincts.13
-
I am and remain a bit perplexed with some of our decisions.
So in Canada we are demanding that Maria from Greece--who has received two doses of Pfizer, self tests once a week for work (twice for hospitality), and gets a third party rapid test every week she travels to a nearby island before being allowed in an open air seating available ferry boat, and who would board after a negative PCR test--we are demanding that Maria quarantines for two weeks on arrival, which means she is staying home.
Yet yesterday I was in two fully (I mean can we please have your hand luggage to check it under for free type fully) full Air Canada/Westjet flights (Listing both alphabetically to protect yesterday's guilty party since they're no different in reality).
We get people to arrive at the airport more than an hour ahead of the flight these days. Even though they're currently discounted these tickets are not exactly free. They also include a good $45 to $75 in airport Improvement and post 9/11 security fees that we all grumble about and yet we end up paying
And we cannot throw in and demand a $20 rapid test before boarding everybody in each other's lap?
And we can demand that people match their ID and have no choice about going through the thermal imaging / metal detection replacement scanner and have their temperatures checked, but we can't demand that the produce proof of two vaccinations and or clean rapid test and or both?
How long are we quarantining the migrant agricultural workers or the work permit workers at the meat plants?
Why are masks no longer obligatory for staff and customers in large and small grocery, department, and any other stores? Yes it is annoying that I can't sip my coffee while shopping. But it's not as if the primary purpose of going shopping is to drink my coffee. So wearing a mask doesn't seem to be The end of the world in that context
And yet we want to quarantine Maria from Greece for 2 weeks.
And I'm being told by smokers who have had no shots and who are allowed to sit next to me in the plane for a few hours that it's too complicated to get an appointment for a shot.. in the same province where it took one phone call for me to get one for the next morning as an out of province visitor (and yes this means I got my second shot one week before my scheduled appointment at my own province instead of cancelling and re-booking it for after my return)
There's many instances where Gale and I do not fully agree; but, I'm wondering if he's right and we're not trying to achieve herd immunity by getting the unvaccinated sick?
Which sort of boggles my mind.
Because in spite of my rant above I'm not yet 2 weeks post second shot and this is not for lack of trying. Which means that there are still quite a few people who are not vaccine hesitant and who have not quite yet fully had their chance for two shots plus 2 weeks.
The option of witnessed self tests, or rapid tests before entering crowded venues exist and in the whole security context and lineups and general costs I don't see how they would be the end of the world. Certainly not as bad as the increased health costs and toll on people.
And before somebody mentions that it costs $150 to do a rapid test commercially, I am talking about large-scale government supported intervention. A UNICEF page that popped up on a search is talking about a reduction in rapid test costs from four US dollars to $2.50.
So I don't think that my $10 to $20 range as the cost to enter a crowded venue and potentially with an app indicated that you've already been tested today is that far out of line ..
11 -
Why are masks no longer obligatory for staff and customers in large and small grocery, department, and any other stores? Yes it is annoying that I can't sip my coffee while shopping. But it's not as if the primary purpose of going shopping is to drink my coffee. So wearing a mask doesn't seem to be The end of the world in that context
Masks are as mandatory as ever in Ontario and apparently they're not considering changing that for a while yet.
Most of the vaccine customers right now are second-shot folks. I guess they're looking to coax more first shots into the hesitant. Part of that is making vaccination available in settings like neighbourhood pharmacies and clinics, where some people might feel more comfortable than the mass sites, but I honestly don't think that's going to capture a huge number.5 -
Masks are as mandatory as ever in Ontario and apparently they're not considering changing that for a while yet.
Not so in both Alberta and BC where it is mask-less in July. I am gratified that at least the airports seem to be more reasonable in terms of keeping to mask mandates especially given the crowding. But grocery stores? Gone are the no side by side bagging and single path and other movement restrictions.3 -
I am and remain a bit perplexed with some of our decisions.
So in Canada we are demanding that Maria from Greece--who has received two doses of Pfizer, self tests once a week for work (twice for hospitality), and gets a third party rapid test every week she travels to a nearby island before being allowed in an open air seating available ferry boat, and who would board after a negative PCR test--we are demanding that Maria quarantines for two weeks on arrival, which means she is staying home.
Yet yesterday I was in two fully (I mean can we please have your hand luggage to check it under for free type fully) full Air Canada/Westjet flights (Listing both alphabetically to protect yesterday's guilty party since they're no different in reality).
We get people to arrive at the airport more than an hour ahead of the flight these days. Even though they're currently discounted these tickets are not exactly free. They also include a good $45 to $75 in airport Improvement and post 9/11 security fees that we all grumble about and yet we end up paying
And we cannot throw in and demand a $20 rapid test before boarding everybody in each other's lap?
And we can demand that people match their ID and have no choice about going through the thermal imaging / metal detection replacement scanner and have their temperatures checked, but we can't demand that the produce proof of two vaccinations and or clean rapid test and or both?
How long are we quarantining the migrant agricultural workers or the work permit workers at the meat plants?
Why are masks no longer obligatory for staff and customers in large and small grocery, department, and any other stores? Yes it is annoying that I can't sip my coffee while shopping. But it's not as if the primary purpose of going shopping is to drink my coffee. So wearing a mask doesn't seem to be The end of the world in that context
And yet we want to quarantine Maria from Greece for 2 weeks.
And I'm being told by smokers who have had no shots and who are allowed to sit next to me in the plane for a few hours that it's too complicated to get an appointment for a shot.. in the same province where it took one phone call for me to get one for the next morning as an out of province visitor (and yes this means I got my second shot one week before my scheduled appointment at my own province instead of cancelling and re-booking it for after my return)
There's many instances where Gale and I do not fully agree; but, I'm wondering if he's right and we're not trying to achieve herd immunity by getting the unvaccinated sick?
Which sort of boggles my mind.
Because in spite of my rant above I'm not yet 2 weeks post second shot and this is not for lack of trying. Which means that there are still quite a few people who are not vaccine hesitant and who have not quite yet fully had their chance for two shots plus 2 weeks.
The option of witnessed self tests, or rapid tests before entering crowded venues exist and in the whole security context and lineups and general costs I don't see how they would be the end of the world. Certainly not as bad as the increased health costs and toll on people.
And before somebody mentions that it costs $150 to do a rapid test commercially, I am talking about large-scale government supported intervention. A UNICEF page that popped up on a search is talking about a reduction in rapid test costs from four US dollars to $2.50.
So I don't think that my $10 to $20 range as the cost to enter a crowded venue and potentially with an app indicated that you've already been tested today is that far out of line ..
I am against increased testing - for the simple reason that vaccinated people can still test positive without getting sick. I don't think that as this point, when vaccines are readily available to mitigate severe illness, I should have to quarantine or avoid places because I test positive for a virus that I believe is going to be endemic. Covid isn't going anywhere. If people don't want to get sick then get the vaccine. We need to stop putting the onus on those of us who have been vaccinated to protect those who choose not to.
8 -
I am against increased testing - for the simple reason that vaccinated people can still test positive without getting sick. I don't think that as this point, when vaccines are readily available to mitigate severe illness, I should have to quarantine or avoid places because I test positive for a virus that I believe is going to be endemic. Covid isn't going anywhere. If people don't want to get sick then get the vaccine. We need to stop putting the onus on those of us who have been vaccinated to protect those who choose not to.
I am pro testing because as a vaccinated person I can still get sick from another vaccinated person who is sick.
And an asymptomatic vaccinated person who is legitimately testing positive is sick. Literally a Typhoid Mary.
Even if I am vaccinated, why the blazes would I want to get "not sick enough to end up in hospital or die" sick so that you can enjoy your outing? You better believe that I believe you should be avoiding places where you can give your cooties to other people.
So, no, I don't see it as exceedingly onerous to have you and me reasonably prove to each other that we are mutually not sick if we are going to be breathing each others' fumes for a few hours.
If we accept that it will be endemic, then we are playing the flu game and if the vaccine odds deteriorate to the (relatively) dismal record of the flu vaccine then we better get going on some societal behavioural modifications as to what is considered acceptable.
Because there is a vast distance between not sick and not sick enough to end up in hospital or die.21 -
I am against increased testing - for the simple reason that vaccinated people can still test positive without getting sick. I don't think that as this point, when vaccines are readily available to mitigate severe illness, I should have to quarantine or avoid places because I test positive for a virus that I believe is going to be endemic. Covid isn't going anywhere. If people don't want to get sick then get the vaccine. We need to stop putting the onus on those of us who have been vaccinated to protect those who choose not to.
I am pro testing because as a vaccinated person I can still get sick from another vaccinated person who is sick.
And an asymptomatic vaccinated person who is legitimately testing positive is sick. Literally a Typhoid Mary.
Even if I am vaccinated, why the blazes would I want to get "not sick enough to end up in hospital or die" sick so that you can enjoy your outing? You better believe that I believe you should be avoiding places where you can give your cooties to other people.
I f
So, no, I don't see it as exceedingly onerous to have you and me reasonably prove to each other that we are mutually not sick if we are going to be breathing each others' fumes for a few hours.
If we accept that it will be endemic, then we are playing the flu game and if the vaccine odds deteriorate to the (relatively) dismal record of the flu vaccine then we better get going on some societal behavioural modifications as to what is considered acceptable.
Because there is a vast distance between not sick and not sick enough to end up in hospital or die.
I wouldn't consider someone who is asymptomatic to be "sick" though. I would consider that they have been exposed. If they are vaccinated they are most likely not sick because the vaccine is doing the job it was designed to do. Sterilizing immunity was never the end goal of these vaccines.
Yes there is a minimal risk of severe illness after vaccine, but it's not any higher than the risks we take every day with other illness that are circulating. I personally do think it is onerous to continue to be excluded from participating in normal activities of society because someone else chooses to take the risk of remaining unvaccinated.
Not sure what you mean by "accept" it will be endemic, we don't have a choice. There are several coronaviruses that are already endemic and cause mild illness. Hopefully this one will be the same and as natural and vaccine induced immunity increases it will fade into the background and just become one of those seasonal "things" that kids get exposed to early in life, and no one thinks twice about it. I think that is the best case scenario we can hope for at this point. The flu from the 1918 pandemic is still around 100+ years later, I think that Covid will be the same. Hopefully it will follow the pattern and become less virulent in subsequent years.
Coronaviruses (in general) mutate more slowly than flu viruses, so comparing the "dismal" record of the flu vaccine is kind of an apples to oranges thing.8 -
I am against increased testing - for the simple reason that vaccinated people can still test positive without getting sick. I don't think that as this point, when vaccines are readily available to mitigate severe illness, I should have to quarantine or avoid places because I test positive for a virus that I believe is going to be endemic. Covid isn't going anywhere. If people don't want to get sick then get the vaccine. We need to stop putting the onus on those of us who have been vaccinated to protect those who choose not to.
I am pro testing because as a vaccinated person I can still get sick from another vaccinated person who is sick.
And an asymptomatic vaccinated person who is legitimately testing positive is sick. Literally a Typhoid Mary.
Even if I am vaccinated, why the blazes would I want to get "not sick enough to end up in hospital or die" sick so that you can enjoy your outing? You better believe that I believe you should be avoiding places where you can give your cooties to other people.
I f
So, no, I don't see it as exceedingly onerous to have you and me reasonably prove to each other that we are mutually not sick if we are going to be breathing each others' fumes for a few hours.
If we accept that it will be endemic, then we are playing the flu game and if the vaccine odds deteriorate to the (relatively) dismal record of the flu vaccine then we better get going on some societal behavioural modifications as to what is considered acceptable.
Because there is a vast distance between not sick and not sick enough to end up in hospital or die.
I wouldn't consider someone who is asymptomatic to be "sick" though. I would consider that they have been exposed. If they are vaccinated they are most likely not sick because the vaccine is doing the job it was designed to do. Sterilizing immunity was never the end goal of these vaccines.
Yes there is a minimal risk of severe illness after vaccine, but it's not any higher than the risks we take every day with other illness that are circulating. I personally do think it is onerous to continue to be excluded from participating in normal activities of society because someone else chooses to take the risk of remaining unvaccinated.
Not sure what you mean by "accept" it will be endemic, we don't have a choice. There are several coronaviruses that are already endemic and cause mild illness. Hopefully this one will be the same and as natural and vaccine induced immunity increases it will fade into the background and just become one of those seasonal "things" that kids get exposed to early in life, and no one thinks twice about it. I think that is the best case scenario we can hope for at this point. The flu from the 1918 pandemic is still around 100+ years later, I think that Covid will be the same. Hopefully it will follow the pattern and become less virulent in subsequent years.
Coronaviruses (in general) mutate more slowly than flu viruses, so comparing the "dismal" record of the flu vaccine is kind of an apples to oranges thing.
The problem with considering an asymptomatic infection "not sick" is that we don't actually know that yet. We dont know that someone with an asymptomatic COVID-19 infection won't end up with a shingles-like or polio-like secondary illness 20 years from now. I also know a couple of people my age who tested positive back when this started, never really got sick but still over a year later can't complete their old workouts due to extreme fatigue. If your 65+, maybe you take that bet, but at 48, that part of the unknown is daunting I think
It would be awesome to just write off the unvaccinated, but in order for that to work we'd need to quarantine them on an island. There are too many of them to ignore. They are a fertile breeding ground for mutations, one of which that could blow right thru the vaccines being a possibility. And it seems with covid-19, the volume of shedding and time and closeness of exposure is important. So if you walk past a shedder in the grocery, your risk is really low. But if you sit next to an unvaxxed shedding person on a bus for 20 minutes, even vaxxed there is a better chance you will get legit sick. I follow a guy on Twitter whose family of 4, three vaxxed and a little one not vaxxed, went on a road trip. They all felt fluish by the time they got home, and all tested positive and were sick at home for a week or so. The assumption being the little one caught it and spread it to the rest of the family over hours in a car.
I'm not going to throw a party for testing though, I think the current tests are too sensitive, and they aren't even actually sure if vaxxed people can test positive because the reaction to the vaccine mimics whatever the tests look for, or if the tests pick up viral particles circulating harmlessly in the body without infection, or if they do have a minor infection.
Further complicating all this is that children can't be vaxxed yet. While they are at lower risk, there are still cases of children getting sick, hospitalized, and even dying, and that number is increasing, probably because restrictions have been lifted. And I think it's unacceptable to allow kids to get infected because the risk is low, since it's not zero and again, we don't know if that few days of a cough will lead to a lifelong nagging chronic condition we simply haven't catalogued yet.
Darnit @33gail33 I didn't mean this to be a whole disagreeing with you post. There's so much they just don't know yet, and as impatient as we are, it's only been a bit less than 2years,which isn't very long when you're talking about figuring out a new virus. And there are lots of conflicting priorities, so it all depends on which direction you're looking from. Regardless, I share your frustration with those who choose to not get the shot. But I do think we need to get the little ones vaxxed at least before we shrug our shoulders and accept covid-19 as an endemic virus we don't try to stop further. That lack of herd immunity is going to bite us in the butt one way or the other - sick kids or paying higher insurance premiums or wearing masks longer or some other way
17 -
I am and remain a bit perplexed with some of our decisions.
So in Canada we are demanding that Maria from Greece--who has received two doses of Pfizer, self tests once a week for work (twice for hospitality), and gets a third party rapid test every week she travels to a nearby island before being allowed in an open air seating available ferry boat, and who would board after a negative PCR test--we are demanding that Maria quarantines for two weeks on arrival, which means she is staying home.
Yet yesterday I was in two fully (I mean can we please have your hand luggage to check it under for free type fully) full Air Canada/Westjet flights (Listing both alphabetically to protect yesterday's guilty party since they're no different in reality).
We get people to arrive at the airport more than an hour ahead of the flight these days. Even though they're currently discounted these tickets are not exactly free. They also include a good $45 to $75 in airport Improvement and post 9/11 security fees that we all grumble about and yet we end up paying
And we cannot throw in and demand a $20 rapid test before boarding everybody in each other's lap?
And we can demand that people match their ID and have no choice about going through the thermal imaging / metal detection replacement scanner and have their temperatures checked, but we can't demand that the produce proof of two vaccinations and or clean rapid test and or both?
How long are we quarantining the migrant agricultural workers or the work permit workers at the meat plants?
Why are masks no longer obligatory for staff and customers in large and small grocery, department, and any other stores? Yes it is annoying that I can't sip my coffee while shopping. But it's not as if the primary purpose of going shopping is to drink my coffee. So wearing a mask doesn't seem to be The end of the world in that context
And yet we want to quarantine Maria from Greece for 2 weeks.
And I'm being told by smokers who have had no shots and who are allowed to sit next to me in the plane for a few hours that it's too complicated to get an appointment for a shot.. in the same province where it took one phone call for me to get one for the next morning as an out of province visitor (and yes this means I got my second shot one week before my scheduled appointment at my own province instead of cancelling and re-booking it for after my return)
There's many instances where Gale and I do not fully agree; but, I'm wondering if he's right and we're not trying to achieve herd immunity by getting the unvaccinated sick?
Which sort of boggles my mind.
Because in spite of my rant above I'm not yet 2 weeks post second shot and this is not for lack of trying. Which means that there are still quite a few people who are not vaccine hesitant and who have not quite yet fully had their chance for two shots plus 2 weeks.
The option of witnessed self tests, or rapid tests before entering crowded venues exist and in the whole security context and lineups and general costs I don't see how they would be the end of the world. Certainly not as bad as the increased health costs and toll on people.
And before somebody mentions that it costs $150 to do a rapid test commercially, I am talking about large-scale government supported intervention. A UNICEF page that popped up on a search is talking about a reduction in rapid test costs from four US dollars to $2.50.
So I don't think that my $10 to $20 range as the cost to enter a crowded venue and potentially with an app indicated that you've already been tested today is that far out of line ..
I'm not sure how I feel about your testing focus, but as far as I'm concerned proof of vaxx or consecutive negative tests should be required for the time being for any crowded public places, like a plane. Especially in situations where masking isn't realistic or would be stressful for employees to enforce.
I know on TWiV they are very disappointed with the lack of improvement in testing. Theres still disagreement on what exactly is the best particle to test for, and how to determine whether someone is contagious or not. They seem to feel an inexpensive, universal, better targeted test is realistic, but there just hasn't been a push to get it figured out.
I'd bet the professed "logic" of poor Maria's plight is stopping new variants from spreading internationally. But it's pretty clear that's an unwinnable fight, no matter how long you quarantine visitors for. Shockingly (sarcasm) it seems decisions for individual situations are being made with no consideration to other restrictions and with priorities outside of public health. So frustrating.4 -
There's many instances where Gale and I do not fully agree; but, I'm wondering if he's right and we're not trying to achieve herd immunity by getting the unvaccinated sick?
In the US I hear this a lot (from vaccinated people, in that I only know one unvaccinated person over 12, and she is anti covid vaxx) in a frustrated kind of way -- like oh, well, I guess we'll get herd immunity somehow, but what can one do, and it's their choice, not my problem. I think there's huge covid fatigue and also some degree of worry, in that people are aware of possible variants and so on, but also some degree of anger/frustration (as noted) in that most vaccinated people are more likely to be in areas where bad outbreaks were had or were the people who actually tried to follow the rules. Hard to say one should keep acting as if protecting the unvaxxed is #1 priority if one sees them as those running through stores in violation of the rules screaming "freedom" (Braveheart voice) while one has been following the rules and recommendations since March '20.Because in spite of my rant above I'm not yet 2 weeks post second shot and this is not for lack of trying. Which means that there are still quite a few people who are not vaccine hesitant and who have not quite yet fully had their chance for two shots plus 2 weeks.
I don't think this is the case in the US, although I sympathize, so the circumstances are different.The option of witnessed self tests, or rapid tests before entering crowded venues exist and in the whole security context and lineups and general costs I don't see how they would be the end of the world. Certainly not as bad as the increased health costs and toll on people.
But aren't these not actually accurate? I'm not opposed in various circumstances, but I thought that's what they were using at the White House when Trump and others contracted it. Here, I am worried since Lollapalooza is happening (which I am okay with with adequate protections) with only either proof of vaxx or negative test w/in 72 hours, which seems unlikely to be enough even with vaxx proof more likely to be genuine in all cases. (Also we are doing the quarantine from higher case states again thing which has always been absurd bc it's 100% honor system and not enforced.) We don't need a new spike.
I do think the rapid tests are better than nothing for big stuff like Lolla and better than temp checks -- they are/have been used at various universities.2 -
I'm not going to claim that tests are perfect. Far from it. There's both false positives and false negatives.
In time tests can be improved.
False positives can be handled with second and third tests.
False negatives are no different than doing no test at all. So at that point we are arguing that we shouldn't try anything because sometimes we will fail no matter what
I realize that I'm harping a little bit on a sector that has been both affected and that generally has made some effort to mitigate. And where tests are required when flying in from international locations.
So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected.
This is an industry where all the data and contact information for every one of these seats is both fully available and verified. And attendants even note seat swaps.
Text and emails that you can check in, or that the gate has changed, or that the flight will be 10 minutes late.
And yet in January when I was in the middle of a covid exposed 5 row area... there was no text, no email, and no phone call. Just me looking at a website 10 days later and seeing that I hàd been exposed12
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 396.8K Introduce Yourself
- 44.2K Getting Started
- 260.9K Health and Weight Loss
- 176.3K Food and Nutrition
- 47.6K Recipes
- 232.8K Fitness and Exercise
- 451 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.7K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153.3K Motivation and Support
- 8.3K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.5K Chit-Chat
- 2.6K Fun and Games
- 4.5K MyFitnessPal Information
- 16 News and Announcements
- 18 MyFitnessPal Academy
- 1.4K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 3.1K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions