Vegan issues
Replies
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
The vegan objection to keeping chickens for eggs is that it's very difficult to source chickens in a way that centers their wellbeing (after all, if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?). It's not necessarily that keeping a chicken injures them, it's that the practice of breeding chickens so that individuals can have them injures chickens even if the surviving individuals wind up in caring homes.
Not every vegan operates under the same set of ethical rules. I have heard of some who object to "keeping" pets as interfering with the natural behaviors of the animals, robbing them of their autonomy, and treating them as property.
I agree that concerns about inhumane treatment are probably most common, and certainly the next threshold after the minimum baseline of not killing animals to eat them. I don't assume all vegans would agree that it's unethical to source a chicken from someone who has a few chickens and a rooster running around their backyard, but you know that some generations back it almost uncertainly derived from some factory production system -- although it may not be possible to be sure, especially in a rural area that has managed to maintain a small farm tradition for the past century or more.
I don't understand your comment "if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?" If being "kept" by a vegan or someone who views them primarily as a pet, they are presumably scratching in the dirt for insects and engaging in other perfectly normal, instinctive chicken behaviors. The point to not keeping a rooster is to not to end up with more chickens than you have room for or can find safe homes for.
I assume the implication is that if chicks are more or less equally male and female, but buyers overwhelmingly want females, the males tend to be dealt a cruel fate?
The way that hatchery cockerels are handled is beyond cruel. I won’t describe it here. It’s horrendous.
Pretty much every backyard flock way of dealing with the extra cockerels is better than what happens to the hatchery birds. And “better” here is relative.
There are things a responsible backyard chicken keeper can do that can give the extra cockerels a decent life. But admittedly that’s a tiny minority of backyard chicken keepers who go to those lengths.
This is veering off topic. Feel free to pm me if anyone wants details.2 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
The vegan objection to keeping chickens for eggs is that it's very difficult to source chickens in a way that centers their wellbeing (after all, if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?). It's not necessarily that keeping a chicken injures them, it's that the practice of breeding chickens so that individuals can have them injures chickens even if the surviving individuals wind up in caring homes.
Not every vegan operates under the same set of ethical rules. I have heard of some who object to "keeping" pets as interfering with the natural behaviors of the animals, robbing them of their autonomy, and treating them as property.
I agree that concerns about inhumane treatment are probably most common, and certainly the next threshold after the minimum baseline of not killing animals to eat them. I don't assume all vegans would agree that it's unethical to source a chicken from someone who has a few chickens and a rooster running around their backyard, but you know that some generations back it almost uncertainly derived from some factory production system -- although it may not be possible to be sure, especially in a rural area that has managed to maintain a small farm tradition for the past century or more.
I don't understand your comment "if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?" If being "kept" by a vegan or someone who views them primarily as a pet, they are presumably scratching in the dirt for insects and engaging in other perfectly normal, instinctive chicken behaviors. The point to not keeping a rooster is to not to end up with more chickens than you have room for or can find safe homes for.
I wasn't attempting to paint vegans as a monolith -- as a vegan, I'm very aware of internal differences in our community. My point was that if an individual is buying female chicks and caring for them well, they're still contributing to an industry that "destroys" male chicks because there is little demand for roosters. This is part of why vegans object to "backyard" chickens. Your recommendation was that OP get a flock free of roosters, so "where are the roosters" is a reasonable question in that context.
Vegans aren't buying the hatched chicks that happen to be male. They aren't out there scratching in the dirt for insects. They're not anywhere, they're killed shortly after birth.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
The vegan objection to keeping chickens for eggs is that it's very difficult to source chickens in a way that centers their wellbeing (after all, if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?). It's not necessarily that keeping a chicken injures them, it's that the practice of breeding chickens so that individuals can have them injures chickens even if the surviving individuals wind up in caring homes.
Not every vegan operates under the same set of ethical rules. I have heard of some who object to "keeping" pets as interfering with the natural behaviors of the animals, robbing them of their autonomy, and treating them as property.
I agree that concerns about inhumane treatment are probably most common, and certainly the next threshold after the minimum baseline of not killing animals to eat them. I don't assume all vegans would agree that it's unethical to source a chicken from someone who has a few chickens and a rooster running around their backyard, but you know that some generations back it almost uncertainly derived from some factory production system -- although it may not be possible to be sure, especially in a rural area that has managed to maintain a small farm tradition for the past century or more.
I don't understand your comment "if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?" If being "kept" by a vegan or someone who views them primarily as a pet, they are presumably scratching in the dirt for insects and engaging in other perfectly normal, instinctive chicken behaviors. The point to not keeping a rooster is to not to end up with more chickens than you have room for or can find safe homes for.
I wasn't attempting to paint vegans as a monolith -- as a vegan, I'm very aware of internal differences in our community. My point was that if an individual is buying female chicks and caring for them well, they're still contributing to an industry that "destroys" male chicks because there is little demand for roosters. This is part of why vegans object to "backyard" chickens. Your recommendation was that OP get a flock free of roosters, so "where are the roosters" is a reasonable question in that context.
Vegans aren't buying the hatched chicks that happen to be male. They aren't out there scratching in the dirt for insects. They're not anywhere, they're killed shortly after birth.
Yes, I conceded this point in my most recent post more than 24 hours before your response.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
The vegan objection to keeping chickens for eggs is that it's very difficult to source chickens in a way that centers their wellbeing (after all, if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?). It's not necessarily that keeping a chicken injures them, it's that the practice of breeding chickens so that individuals can have them injures chickens even if the surviving individuals wind up in caring homes.
Not every vegan operates under the same set of ethical rules. I have heard of some who object to "keeping" pets as interfering with the natural behaviors of the animals, robbing them of their autonomy, and treating them as property.
I agree that concerns about inhumane treatment are probably most common, and certainly the next threshold after the minimum baseline of not killing animals to eat them. I don't assume all vegans would agree that it's unethical to source a chicken from someone who has a few chickens and a rooster running around their backyard, but you know that some generations back it almost uncertainly derived from some factory production system -- although it may not be possible to be sure, especially in a rural area that has managed to maintain a small farm tradition for the past century or more.
I don't understand your comment "if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?" If being "kept" by a vegan or someone who views them primarily as a pet, they are presumably scratching in the dirt for insects and engaging in other perfectly normal, instinctive chicken behaviors. The point to not keeping a rooster is to not to end up with more chickens than you have room for or can find safe homes for.
I wasn't attempting to paint vegans as a monolith -- as a vegan, I'm very aware of internal differences in our community. My point was that if an individual is buying female chicks and caring for them well, they're still contributing to an industry that "destroys" male chicks because there is little demand for roosters. This is part of why vegans object to "backyard" chickens. Your recommendation was that OP get a flock free of roosters, so "where are the roosters" is a reasonable question in that context.
Vegans aren't buying the hatched chicks that happen to be male. They aren't out there scratching in the dirt for insects. They're not anywhere, they're killed shortly after birth.
Yes, I conceded this point in my most recent post more than 24 hours before your response.
Sorry for the redundancy, I responded to your response before reading the rest of the thread.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »oooaarrrr79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
Hi there.
Thank you for your suggestions I am open to anything!!
Can I ask why a cast iron pan? If there is a reason I should probably know but I don't I'm afraid.
Eggs, well I just don't think I can. I don't know if I have to, I have to but I wouldn't by choice.
If it's ethical issues, have you considered keeping your own chickens (no rooster)? Then you could be sure nothing living or even viable was being injured, unless you feel that "keeping" a chicken injures it, which of course is your option.
The vegan objection to keeping chickens for eggs is that it's very difficult to source chickens in a way that centers their wellbeing (after all, if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?). It's not necessarily that keeping a chicken injures them, it's that the practice of breeding chickens so that individuals can have them injures chickens even if the surviving individuals wind up in caring homes.
Not every vegan operates under the same set of ethical rules. I have heard of some who object to "keeping" pets as interfering with the natural behaviors of the animals, robbing them of their autonomy, and treating them as property.
I agree that concerns about inhumane treatment are probably most common, and certainly the next threshold after the minimum baseline of not killing animals to eat them. I don't assume all vegans would agree that it's unethical to source a chicken from someone who has a few chickens and a rooster running around their backyard, but you know that some generations back it almost uncertainly derived from some factory production system -- although it may not be possible to be sure, especially in a rural area that has managed to maintain a small farm tradition for the past century or more.
I don't understand your comment "if there are no roosters, what's happening to them?" If being "kept" by a vegan or someone who views them primarily as a pet, they are presumably scratching in the dirt for insects and engaging in other perfectly normal, instinctive chicken behaviors. The point to not keeping a rooster is to not to end up with more chickens than you have room for or can find safe homes for.
I wasn't attempting to paint vegans as a monolith -- as a vegan, I'm very aware of internal differences in our community. My point was that if an individual is buying female chicks and caring for them well, they're still contributing to an industry that "destroys" male chicks because there is little demand for roosters. This is part of why vegans object to "backyard" chickens. Your recommendation was that OP get a flock free of roosters, so "where are the roosters" is a reasonable question in that context.
Vegans aren't buying the hatched chicks that happen to be male. They aren't out there scratching in the dirt for insects. They're not anywhere, they're killed shortly after birth.
Yes, I conceded this point in my most recent post more than 24 hours before your response.
Sorry for the redundancy, I responded to your response before reading the rest of the thread.
No problem. I do that myself sometimes, especially when there's been a lot of activity since the last time I was on a thread (or the first time on) -- don't want to forget what I wanted to say while I read through all the posts.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Lots of great advice, so only two small suggestions.
1) If you’re not using a cast iron pan, you might want to look into the benefits of using one.
2) If you decide to eat a few eggs, try to find someone local who raises chickens free range. TRUE free range, not what the factory farms tell you is free range.
Chickens lay eggs no matter what. And if they have sunshine and grass to run in? They’re happy. A good chicken keeper will have happy chickens. That should, I hope, help any ethical concerns you have about eggs.
Bonus? Happy chickens lay the tastiest eggs. Not even kidding.
I know you mean well, but if someone has a serious medical condition like iron deficiency CAST IRON WILL NOT HELP. I'm anemic despite cooking with cast iron pans all my life. While you might get a little extra iron this way, that's only if you are using the pan in non-standard ways.
I've read that if you're using a pan that is properly seasoned, then you're not going to get very much iron from it at all. I don't know if there any studies on the topic, but I personally wouldn't count on getting any iron from this cooking method.From experience, I suspect that's true.
I'm a cast-iron-pan lover, believer in keeping them properly seasoned. "Seasoned" IME amounts to a coating. A well-seasoned pan doesn't rust - at least not quickly - as a non-seasoned pan will.
Cooking high-acid liquid-y foods in the pan can break through the seasoning, probably release some iron (iron pans + acid foods are a more iron-releasing combo, abstractly, vs. non-acid foods). Washing the pans with soap or using harsh scrubbers (like Brillo or steel wool, etc.) will remove the coating, or keep it so thin that there's breakthrough during cooking.
If there's iron wanted to be had from cooking in cast iron, then keeping it well-scrubbed and using it for high-acid foods (like tomato sauce) would be the way to maximize the effect. It will also eliminate the non-stick advantage of cast iron, and the pans are very likely to rust between uses.
There's got to be an easier, better way to get dietary iron.
Yes, this is what I meant by "using the pan in non-standard ways" - thanks.1 -
On the vegan ethics part, there are now several startups that are manufacturing "cruelty free" meat. Just like Perfect Day is making milk in the lab by using DNA, not animals, there are new startups like Orbillion Bio (I'm trying to work with them as their technical recruiter) are going to make lab meat from DNA.
Some vegans will hate the idea, some that are vegan for ethical reasons might like it. From a previous post I made about Perfect Day's lab made dairy (which has really made the mainstream), it's clear it's not cut and dried that vegans will like it. It's more for the carnivores that are wanna be vegans, who eat meat but don't like the ethics of killing animals, that this will appeal to.
In 5 years, you'll be able to get a Kobe Filet Mignon without killing an animal in the process.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »On the vegan ethics part, there are now several startups that are manufacturing "cruelty free" meat. Just like Perfect Day is making milk in the lab by using DNA, not animals, there are new startups like Orbillion Bio (I'm trying to work with them as their technical recruiter) are going to make lab meat from DNA.
Some vegans will hate the idea, some that are vegan for ethical reasons might like it. From a previous post I made about Perfect Day's lab made dairy (which has really made the mainstream), it's clear it's not cut and dried that vegans will like it. It's more for the carnivores that are wanna be vegans, who eat meat but don't like the ethics of killing animals, that this will appeal to.
In 5 years, you'll be able to get a Kobe Filet Mignon without killing an animal in the process.
Along these lines, in this study of consumers or potential consumers of plant-based meat alternative products like Beyond Meat, there were hardly any vegans or vegetarians:
https://www.quantilope.com/en-us/blog/insight-studies-plant-based-meat-products
https://www.quantilope.com/en-us/blog/insight-studies-who-is-the-beyond-meat-consumer
...Within our target group, less than 1 percent of participants reported being vegan and only 4 percent as vegetarian. Seventy-five percent of respondents categorized themselves as omnivores (someone who eats both plants and animals), indicating that the majority of consumers who purchase plant-based meat alternatives, or would be open to, are not your typical vegetarian consumer. In fact, two-thirds of US consumers cite that they are now eating less meat due to health and cost concerns."0 -
I think for whatever people decide to live a vegan/plant based life or diet rich in meat or somewhere in between, there will always be debates on what is right, what is wrong, what we should or shouldn't be doing. When it effects the health of individuals that's when things need to be looked into a bit more, some people are lactose intolerant, some people can't eat gluten maybe some people just can't eat a fully plant based lifestyle. All I know for over 8 years I have been vegan on and of and the off times were health related, mental health, hair loss, anemia, b12 deficiency, I had supplements and a good all round diet but still these issues arise and I really suffer. I have felt faint everyday for over a week, my hair is still coming out in clumps, i am mentally and physically drained. I want to eat the way I choose but my body seems to reject it and I don't know why.
I have blood tests in 2 weeks hopefully that will answer some questions3
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