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Research suggests there is more to it than simply CICO for obese people. More study needed.

MargaretYakoda
MargaretYakoda Posts: 2,997 Member
The Guardian story.
Teal Dear: research suggests overweight people do actually have a harder time expending calories especially after exercise.
It is not 100% conclusive. But the participant number seems large enough, and the findings solid enough, to investigate this further.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/27/losing-weight-through-exercise-may-be-harder-for-obese-people-research-says

And the published study for those who want all the information available.

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)01120-9?_returnURL=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0960982221011209?showall=true
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Replies

  • MargaretYakoda
    MargaretYakoda Posts: 2,997 Member
    @goal06082021
    No disagreement with that.
    It may just add another factor.

    And I want to be clear: I do not believe this means obese people can’t lose weight. My personal experience says morbidly obese people can lose weight. And that restricting calories in a safe and consciousness manner is the way to do it.
  • swimmom_1
    swimmom_1 Posts: 1,302 Member
    edited August 2021
    So CI is < CO. CI is less than CO.
  • swimmom_1
    swimmom_1 Posts: 1,302 Member
    Agree with @goal06082021
    That is why we need to measure in a measuring cup of weighin on a scale. That's why also for TDEE I take the less activity level of 1-2 x/week instead of using the 3-5 x/week, even though I'm e deciding my off work days of 3x/week. I'd rather under estimate in that area of less than, than more than. Food wise, if I am out at a restaurant, and can't measure, I would over estimate the food amount I'm eating. It's been working for me so far.
  • MargaretYakoda
    MargaretYakoda Posts: 2,997 Member
    edited August 2021
    Oh, absolutely. It's always going to be easier to deal with the "CI" half of the equation, since there is no direct way to measure CO - even laboratory-grade heart-rate monitors are still only measuring heart rate, which is like a third-hand approximation of calorie burn. And if an obese person does burn significantly fewer calories than someone else doing the same exercise, the CI piece is going to be even more important. But it still comes down to CI<CO for weight loss - if that's not happening, either CI is too high, CO is too low, or both.

    This is a calorie-counting website, so naturally MFP is best utilized as a tool to help you dial in the CI portion of the equation; and furthermore, human beings are just...really incredibly bad at estimating how much they eat. It used to be an adaptation, being able to eat more than we strictly needed at a given time, but it's not anymore now that we have, you know, McDonald's and grocery stores and UberEats. There's science about that, too. A person who is already overweight or obese has a clear and obvious track record of underestimating how much they eat; the way to correct that is to eat less, but you need to know how much you're starting with to make any lasting changes.

    Yes. I think this is the key bit for MFP and helping people.

    Maybe acknowledge the possibility that yes it might be a bit harder for morbidly obese people. As the article suggests, it might be harder but we don’t yet know for sure, or what the mechanism is. But the solution is not to give up, but to be even more precise with the part we can control.
    Carbs in. And counted as precise as possible by a lay person.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,458 Member
    edited August 2021
    The study showed clearly an underlying compensatory process which reduced basal energy expenditure in response to total energy expenditure, thereby reducing the deficit that would otherwise be created by exercise

    It seems to go without saying that obese people who exercise are going to be more fatigued than fitter, lighter people...I don't know that you can calculate how much/many calories basal rate percentage changes will occur due to fitness levels. I just think it's a lot more complicated.

  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    MFP is based around calorie counting, but also has an adjustment for exercise which is applied very blandly with no comment or recognition of a) the problems with measuring/recording calories burnt, or b) what this shows, which is that BEE/BMR is affected by calories burned in exercise.

    What is BEE?

    Do you really think anyone uses an exercise calculation without thinking, "Hm, how accurate can this be? It doesn't know how hard I danced/hula-hooped/swam/played baseball?"

    Ya gotta just do it and work out all the variables. Every single part of weight loss is individual from food choices to calorie-counting accuracy (or no counting) to daily chores and activities, to fidgeting, exercise intensity, general weight and health, nutrition, illness, stress, sleep, hydration...it isn't a simple, "It's harder for obese people." It's hard for everyone...but you have to run the experiment.

    Right, I garden, and some times I use the whole calorie allotment but know to not when it's like this:

    vq8eiomgtpa8.png

    This was not a difficult decision.
  • rheddmobile
    rheddmobile Posts: 6,840 Member
    I’m kind of weirded out by this study because it finds the exact opposite of every other study ever - which have consistently found that exercise increases metabolism temporarily even after the exercise is complete. I need to know more about their methodology and what they measured before I have an opinion.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    I’m kind of weirded out by this study because it finds the exact opposite of every other study ever - which have consistently found that exercise increases metabolism temporarily even after the exercise is complete. I need to know more about their methodology and what they measured before I have an opinion.

    It's not a research study like that - it's the kind of study to get others interested to do research into a study like you are thinking of. Those have been done too.

    See the section on weight loss through calorie restriction enhanced by exercise.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3925973/


    In this case they took database of available info from a lot of people measured at a static point in time, and tried to discern some info from it.

    NASA years ago had a similar "study" with database available for researchers to cull through and try to discern some things. Many "studies" came from that.

    It can be interesting on some things, because they'll have like measured RMR or BF%, along with simple methods or calculations or skin folders, in this case measured TDEE along with participant survey, VO2max tests, ect. And everybody at the company got a free physical basically. Better have.

    But it's not truly giving a difference in change of behavior - they try to discern that.


    That increased metabolism from EPOC has been found to be so minor though, easily adjusted through other activity.
    And if your metabolism is increased the day after lifting say because of repair to muscles - you might be sore and moving a lot less.
  • nooshi713
    nooshi713 Posts: 4,877 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Over and over, people giving advice here will suggest that people (obese or otherwise) may differ from estimates made by so-called calculators (including MFP) or even estimates (yes, *estimates*) made by fitness trackers. People here have repeatedly suggested that people test-drive some reasonably-sourced estimate for a 4-6 weeks (whole menstrual cycles if relevant), then adjust. Then, after adjusting, keep tracking and adjusting. This kind of suggestion comes up in nearly every relevant thread, IME.

    At extremes where people even then post that they aren't losing as expected, there's discussion of adaptive thermogenesis, under-recovery from over-exercise having counter-productive effects, exercise estimates being difficult/fraught (but zero is always wrong), the pitfalls of heart rate monitors as exercise estimators, etc., etc.

    I've typed those kinds of things more often than I could hope or care to count.

    Yes, it can be hard for obese people. It can be hard for people who are hypothyroid, aging, disabled, have PCOS, are insulin resistant, and in many other cases (without even considering learning/skills issues that apply to counting, exercising, etc.).

    I don't think people here, taken as a whole, are generally special-dissing obese people. (A bunch of us have been obese people.) I can understand why obese people might feel so, however. (We each, me included, tend to be especially attuned to implications, possibly even unintended implications, that relate to our personal situation, IME.)

    I think this study is interesting, but not - in overall implications - deeply surprising.

    I truly don't see how it would change the advice I'd give here, in practical "how to" terms. I'm already trying - imperfectly, I'm sure - to be kind. (That's the case even when commenting obstacles that I consider to be 100% self-created by the OP, and I don't put obesity in that category - I'm talking more about people who feel sabotaged by unknowing people having treats in their presence, for example. I'm sure I do poorly at kindness sometimes, however, maybe even often, for some people's tastes.)

    As an aside, if we only net-burn 72% of the calories from exercise on average, I don't think that's deeply meaningful as an error rate, in a context where exercise estimating is kind of a SWAG** in the first place. Surprisingly good, IMO, in fact. I suspect other common sources of exercise-estimating error may be higher percentages, though I have no objective evidence. The 50.5% percent at the 90th percentile of BMI distribution is much worse than that, of course.

    ** For those unfamiliar with the term, "Scientific Wild-A** Guess".

    I love your advice.
  • MargaretYakoda
    MargaretYakoda Posts: 2,997 Member
    edited August 2021
    My takeaway from this is that when morbidly obese people say they’re trying hard but seeing little or no results, that we forum denizens might want to respond with acknowledgment of the hard work, and explain that tightening up of the calorie measurement and being as exact as possible is likely even more important in their case. And that what they’re experiencing is real.

    Yes. Some people do exactly that.
    But not everyone.

    And soap tastes like cilantro.

  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    I’m kind of weirded out by this study because it finds the exact opposite of every other study ever - which have consistently found that exercise increases metabolism temporarily even after the exercise is complete. I need to know more about their methodology and what they measured before I have an opinion.

    There is an idea that if I go for an after work bike ride, then later in the day I'll check the mail while I'm walking the cat instead of doing those two things separately and going up and down the stairs twice. 🙂 I buy that it should be true on average.

    I read the link and it talked about the body doing something similar with metabolism. I don't know to what degree I buy that. But I like to read.