Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
What do you think?
Replies
-
Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
I have done years of child care. And gone through actual child abuse cases. Involving the stuff of nightmares.
Yes. This diet, if it is daily fare, is sub-optimal.
No. It is not even close to abusive.
My wife has a long career in education so I am familiar with the "official" definition of child abuse.
Of course there isn't immediate physical/psychological damage from eating this stuff occasionally.
If a habit, this will most likely lead to a lifetime of obesity and poor health, i.e., long term impact.
If one doesn't like the term child abuse for this substitute child neglect.
If leaving your infant in their car seat all weekend and not changing their diaper - resulting in a combination diaper rash and bedsore - (from one of the actual cases I testified in) doesn’t constitute neglect, then feeding your child a hot dog and some sugary yoghurt definitely doesn’t.
(the parents did lose custody a year later, after even worse…)
Don't really give a *kitten* what the court calls neglect. Feeding a child that crap on a regular basis is neglect in my book and the book of anyone that has any common sense.
::shrug::
Personal opinion that this food is unhealthy doesn’t make it neglect.
As has been pointed out here already:
1) We don’t know what these children eat at home.
2) Posting this picture without parental permission is a big problem.
3) It’s food. And enough of it.
4) Shaming parents who are very likely doing their best under very difficult circumstances is really not OK.
Check what the CDC and USDA has to say about this type of food on a regular basis.
The scientists working for those organizations are smarter than anyone posting on here about nutrition. No knock to anyone on here, just fact.
At no point has anyone here said this was a perfect nutritious lunch.
What I am saying is is that it is neither abusive, nor neglectful.
10 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
I have done years of child care. And gone through actual child abuse cases. Involving the stuff of nightmares.
Yes. This diet, if it is daily fare, is sub-optimal.
No. It is not even close to abusive.
My wife has a long career in education so I am familiar with the "official" definition of child abuse.
Of course there isn't immediate physical/psychological damage from eating this stuff occasionally.
If a habit, this will most likely lead to a lifetime of obesity and poor health, i.e., long term impact.
If one doesn't like the term child abuse for this substitute child neglect.
OK, but what else do you consider neglect? How about parents who are attached their screens most of the time or give their kids tablets and phones to "play on" for a very young age unsupervised, provide inconsistent or too-harsh discipline (or too lenient), and/or give inconsistent affection and discipline? Those things also can have an impact on a child's development and mental health.4 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
I have done years of child care. And gone through actual child abuse cases. Involving the stuff of nightmares.
Yes. This diet, if it is daily fare, is sub-optimal.
No. It is not even close to abusive.
My wife has a long career in education so I am familiar with the "official" definition of child abuse.
Of course there isn't immediate physical/psychological damage from eating this stuff occasionally.
If a habit, this will most likely lead to a lifetime of obesity and poor health, i.e., long term impact.
If one doesn't like the term child abuse for this substitute child neglect.
If leaving your infant in their car seat all weekend and not changing their diaper - resulting in a combination diaper rash and bedsore - (from one of the actual cases I testified in) doesn’t constitute neglect, then feeding your child a hot dog and some sugary yoghurt definitely doesn’t.
(the parents did lose custody a year later, after even worse…)
Don't really give a *kitten* what the court calls neglect. Feeding a child that crap on a regular basis is neglect in my book and the book of anyone that has any common sense.
Didn't realize your book was scientific-backed research valid in a heath and fitness debate forum. How do I get my book validated?11 -
Strictly speaking, if the OP is an employee, contractor or agent of the school, posting the photo of the student (if identifiable) is probably technically a FERPA (Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, a.k.a. Buckley Act) violation, though I doubt whether it would be taken very seriously by a court.
This is an oversimplification, but basically any personally identifiable educational record held by the school or its employees (etc.), including photos, is privacy protected, cannot be released without parental permission (or permission of the student if of age) except for directory information (which needs to be specifically and formally defined by the school) and personal notes of an individual (such as teacher or administrator) that are shared with no one else. I doubt that the school has formally defined "photo of student with their nutrient-poor lunch" as directory information. Clearly, this has been shared with others, so doesn't fall under the personal notes exemption.
Next time (heh), I'd suggest leaving out any parts of any kiddo in such a photo. . . not because of legal sanctions, but because there's no reason to include kid parts, and including them is at least mildly icky. JMO - or mine and a few others' - though. I admit I spent decades in an educational institution (university) that took FERPA quite seriously as an ethical standard even beyond legal risk, so I may be biased.
https://nces.ed.gov/pubs97/web/97859.asp
To call a photo of some lunches an example of "abuse" or "neglect" with no further information or context than given? Please.
12 -
Hi all
Wowza...I actually forgot about this post! And just so you know, these aren't my own pictures. When I saw them, they sure reminded me of what my own students bring to school each day.
I posted these to hear various view points regarding these items - so many view points. All very interesting for sure!5 -
They are somebody's pictures though and the child is somebody's child.
And you were still the one who posted them.
Not sure why we needed photos at all, really.
9 -
paperpudding wrote: »They are somebody's pictures though and the child is somebody's child.
And you were still the one who posted them.
Not sure why we needed photos at all, really.
You are absolutely right - My bad...shouldn't have posted pics including a child.8 -
Hi all
Wowza...I actually forgot about this post! And just so you know, these aren't my own pictures. When I saw them, they sure reminded me of what my own students bring to school each day.
I posted these to hear various view points regarding these items - so many view points. All very interesting for sure!
That's a relief to hear! Thank you for the clarification (they're stock photos?).
Without extra context, I'm not too worried about a student lunch like shown (the child has all that food but how much of it are they actually eating?).
When I was a kid I often traded, shared, or just flat out wouldn't eat my lunches. I didn't like how fruit or veggies oxidized or squished in my backpack so would usually opt not to eat those foods at school (I ate lots of them outside of class but my teachers would've never seen that). Was also too embarrassed to eat the otherwise loved tuna celery sandwiches in class. So my parents would then give me food like depicted (Luncheables, Yoplait, chips) because they traveled well, involved minimal prep, and I'd actually eat some of it; sometimes they'd give me "doubles" because they knew I shared with friends who didn't always have a lunch. That's me though - every child's (and parents') situation is different.
It's not an ideal lunch but not concerning unless there's more context here that makes it so (ie - the child is showing signs of malnourishment or other poor health markers linked to diet deficiencies). A lunch like this is not abuse/neglect in of itself - as others have mentioned. For better or for worse, it kind of looks like the spread you'd see at a children's birthday party...2 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
I have done years of child care. And gone through actual child abuse cases. Involving the stuff of nightmares.
Yes. This diet, if it is daily fare, is sub-optimal.
No. It is not even close to abusive.
My wife has a long career in education so I am familiar with the "official" definition of child abuse.
Of course there isn't immediate physical/psychological damage from eating this stuff occasionally.
If a habit, this will most likely lead to a lifetime of obesity and poor health, i.e., long term impact.
If one doesn't like the term child abuse for this substitute child neglect.
If leaving your infant in their car seat all weekend and not changing their diaper - resulting in a combination diaper rash and bedsore - (from one of the actual cases I testified in) doesn’t constitute neglect, then feeding your child a hot dog and some sugary yoghurt definitely doesn’t.
(the parents did lose custody a year later, after even worse…)
Don't really give a *kitten* what the court calls neglect. Feeding a child that crap on a regular basis is neglect in my book and the book of anyone that has any common sense.
::shrug::
Personal opinion that this food is unhealthy doesn’t make it neglect.
As has been pointed out here already:
1) We don’t know what these children eat at home.
2) Posting this picture without parental permission is a big problem.
3) It’s food. And enough of it.
4) Shaming parents who are very likely doing their best under very difficult circumstances is really not OK.
Check what the CDC and USDA has to say about this type of food on a regular basis.
The scientists working for those organizations are smarter than anyone posting on here about nutrition. No knock to anyone on here, just fact.
I'd be very interested in a CDC or USDA cite that calls it child abuse or child neglect.5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
I have done years of child care. And gone through actual child abuse cases. Involving the stuff of nightmares.
Yes. This diet, if it is daily fare, is sub-optimal.
No. It is not even close to abusive.
My wife has a long career in education so I am familiar with the "official" definition of child abuse.
Of course there isn't immediate physical/psychological damage from eating this stuff occasionally.
If a habit, this will most likely lead to a lifetime of obesity and poor health, i.e., long term impact.
If one doesn't like the term child abuse for this substitute child neglect.
If leaving your infant in their car seat all weekend and not changing their diaper - resulting in a combination diaper rash and bedsore - (from one of the actual cases I testified in) doesn’t constitute neglect, then feeding your child a hot dog and some sugary yoghurt definitely doesn’t.
(the parents did lose custody a year later, after even worse…)
Don't really give a *kitten* what the court calls neglect. Feeding a child that crap on a regular basis is neglect in my book and the book of anyone that has any common sense.
::shrug::
Personal opinion that this food is unhealthy doesn’t make it neglect.
As has been pointed out here already:
1) We don’t know what these children eat at home.
2) Posting this picture without parental permission is a big problem.
3) It’s food. And enough of it.
4) Shaming parents who are very likely doing their best under very difficult circumstances is really not OK.
Check what the CDC and USDA has to say about this type of food on a regular basis.
The scientists working for those organizations are smarter than anyone posting on here about nutrition. No knock to anyone on here, just fact.
I'd be very interested in a CDC or USDA cite that calls it child abuse or child neglect.
I would also. Please use your reading comprehension. I said the CDC and USDA are not fans of this type of food on a regular basis.
Never said they called it child abuse/neglect.
Sample guidance from CDC. All the foods shown in the picture from the school are in the red category:
https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/ndep/pdfs/7-road-to-health-toolkit-flipchart.pdf2 -
Total strawman.
Nobody was arguing that the food in photo was optimal nutrition or that any organisation recomended them.
And you clearly posted "Check what the CDC and USDA has to say about this type of food on a regular basis" in direct response to child abuse comments.
Sure, you never directly said they called it child abuse or neglect but that seemed what you meant.
So you are now not saying that, only that they are not fans of such food on a regular basis?
No kidding - nobody thought they were.,
12 -
paperpudding wrote: »Total strawman.
Nobody was arguing that the food in photo was optimal nutrition or that any organisation recomended them.
And you clearly posted "Check what the CDC and USDA has to say about this type of food on a regular basis" in direct response to child abuse comments.
Sure, you never directly said they called it child abuse or neglect but that seemed what you meant.
So you are now not saying that, only that they are not fans of such food on a regular basis?
No kidding - nobody thought they were.,
Ditto.
5 -
Tangent coming...
Part of it (for me) is the idea that this type of lunch = neglect/abuse. IMO, if you're a parent and the WORST thing you're doing as a parent is sending your kid to school with this type of lunch (5 meals per week), you're doing a pretty good effin job as a parent. You're sure as hell doing a better job than I did.
So if prepackaged foods = neglect, then I should have been reported as an unfit parent for a dozen different infractions, and my kids should probably have been taken from me years ago.
Clearly those foods aren't ideal. But if that's the pass/fail mark, yikes.18 -
Is there any way to heat those hot dogs up?
Because cold hot dogs
6 -
Hi all
Wowza...I actually forgot about this post! And just so you know, these aren't my own pictures. When I saw them, they sure reminded me of what my own students bring to school each day.
I posted these to hear various view points regarding these items - so many view points. All very interesting for sure!
That's a relief to hear! Thank you for the clarification (they're stock photos?).
Without extra context, I'm not too worried about a student lunch like shown (the child has all that food but how much of it are they actually eating?).
When I was a kid I often traded, shared, or just flat out wouldn't eat my lunches. I didn't like how fruit or veggies oxidized or squished in my backpack so would usually opt not to eat those foods at school (I ate lots of them outside of class but my teachers would've never seen that). Was also too embarrassed to eat the otherwise loved tuna celery sandwiches in class. So my parents would then give me food like depicted (Luncheables, Yoplait, chips) because they traveled well, involved minimal prep, and I'd actually eat some of it; sometimes they'd give me "doubles" because they knew I shared with friends who didn't always have a lunch. That's me though - every child's (and parents') situation is different.
It's not an ideal lunch but not concerning unless there's more context here that makes it so (ie - the child is showing signs of malnourishment or other poor health markers linked to diet deficiencies). A lunch like this is not abuse/neglect in of itself - as others have mentioned. For better or for worse, it kind of looks like the spread you'd see at a children's birthday party...
Sadly, I don't think they're stock photos. I think they are unstaged photos of real children, taken by adults without the knowledge of their parents, being passed around online as examples of poor parenting or even "child abuse." I feel like this is WORSE than OP taking them and posting them herself.7 -
Tangent coming...
Part of it (for me) is the idea that this type of lunch = neglect/abuse. IMO, if you're a parent and the WORST thing you're doing as a parent is sending your kid to school with this type of lunch (5 meals per week), you're doing a pretty good effin job as a parent. You're sure as hell doing a better job than I did.
So if prepackaged foods = neglect, then I should have been reported as an unfit parent for a dozen different infractions, and my kids should probably have been taken from me years ago.
Clearly those foods aren't ideal. But if that's the pass/fail mark, yikes.
I am not a parent, but it's an amazingly huge responsibility to take on. You have at least 18 years of responsibility for keeping people safe, fed, housed, and clothed. They emerge with no knowledge of our society and the ideal is that at the end they'll be able to take care of themselves and maybe repeat the whole cycle with their own kids. If in the course of those eighteen years they're sometimes eating hot dogs for lunch, okay.
I'm probably biased here, as I grew up with a mom who did everything from scratch. The only time we had pre-made "fun" fun stuff was on our birthday or the occasional cookout. Then when I was older, my parents got divorced and my mom had a few years living really close to the edge, including getting some food from food banks. And the meals that she sent my siblings to school with . . . well, they would have looked a lot like what the kids in the OP were eating, just without the brand names. Because she was rounding out her food budget with handouts and she was busy from working two jobs. It turns out that when you're busy and exhausted it's really nice to have stuff you can just drop in a lunch box. But my siblings were usually getting crockpot-style meals for dinner with additional nutrients (one winter, for example, a neighbor had a bunch of extra rabbits in his freezer and gave them to her). Then she was able to get a better job and she resumed some of her previous food habits (but she never went all the way back).
And you know what . . . nobody could tell the difference today between the kids she raised who hardly ever had white bread and the kids who ate it daily for a while. Some of us struggled with our weight a bit and then figured it out, some of us were always slim. All of mostly cook all our own food, a couple are even really into "clean" eating. The kids who spent a few more years eating hot dogs and pre-made cookies weren't ruined or broken, they're eating pretty much like I do (I mean, they're not vegan, but they're eating lots of vegetables and preparing plenty of their own food).
When I look at the lunches above, I'm open to the possibility that they're a manifestation of love because I know that one of the things that my mom is proudest of is that her kids never went hungry even if that meant some white bread sandwiches and ramen noodles (and rabbit stew).13 -
I'm not surprised at all. My lizard brain made me feel sick for a second.1
-
janejellyroll wrote: »Hi all
Wowza...I actually forgot about this post! And just so you know, these aren't my own pictures. When I saw them, they sure reminded me of what my own students bring to school each day.
I posted these to hear various view points regarding these items - so many view points. All very interesting for sure!
That's a relief to hear! Thank you for the clarification (they're stock photos?).
Without extra context, I'm not too worried about a student lunch like shown (the child has all that food but how much of it are they actually eating?).
When I was a kid I often traded, shared, or just flat out wouldn't eat my lunches. I didn't like how fruit or veggies oxidized or squished in my backpack so would usually opt not to eat those foods at school (I ate lots of them outside of class but my teachers would've never seen that). Was also too embarrassed to eat the otherwise loved tuna celery sandwiches in class. So my parents would then give me food like depicted (Luncheables, Yoplait, chips) because they traveled well, involved minimal prep, and I'd actually eat some of it; sometimes they'd give me "doubles" because they knew I shared with friends who didn't always have a lunch. That's me though - every child's (and parents') situation is different.
It's not an ideal lunch but not concerning unless there's more context here that makes it so (ie - the child is showing signs of malnourishment or other poor health markers linked to diet deficiencies). A lunch like this is not abuse/neglect in of itself - as others have mentioned. For better or for worse, it kind of looks like the spread you'd see at a children's birthday party...
Sadly, I don't think they're stock photos. I think they are unstaged photos of real children, taken by adults without the knowledge of their parents, being passed around online as examples of poor parenting or even "child abuse." I feel like this is WORSE than OP taking them and posting them herself.
Great point. Was trying to be optimistic/hopeful but.. yeah, no, you're right - it's still inappropriate. That type of scenario is typically toxic and also has the same issues with consent, privacy, confidentiality, and shaming/bullying. That's still someone's kid.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »When I look at the lunches above, I'm open to the possibility that they're a manifestation of love because I know that one of the things that my mom is proudest of is that her kids never went hungry even if that meant some white bread sandwiches and ramen noodles (and rabbit stew).
Agreed.
I also believe these lunches are - for better or worse - a manifestation of love.
And it reminds me a bit of this essay:
https://medium.com/the-establishment/poor-people-deserve-to-taste-something-other-than-shame-90eb3aceabf94 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Hi all
Wowza...I actually forgot about this post! And just so you know, these aren't my own pictures. When I saw them, they sure reminded me of what my own students bring to school each day.
I posted these to hear various view points regarding these items - so many view points. All very interesting for sure!
That's a relief to hear! Thank you for the clarification (they're stock photos?).
Without extra context, I'm not too worried about a student lunch like shown (the child has all that food but how much of it are they actually eating?).
When I was a kid I often traded, shared, or just flat out wouldn't eat my lunches. I didn't like how fruit or veggies oxidized or squished in my backpack so would usually opt not to eat those foods at school (I ate lots of them outside of class but my teachers would've never seen that). Was also too embarrassed to eat the otherwise loved tuna celery sandwiches in class. So my parents would then give me food like depicted (Luncheables, Yoplait, chips) because they traveled well, involved minimal prep, and I'd actually eat some of it; sometimes they'd give me "doubles" because they knew I shared with friends who didn't always have a lunch. That's me though - every child's (and parents') situation is different.
It's not an ideal lunch but not concerning unless there's more context here that makes it so (ie - the child is showing signs of malnourishment or other poor health markers linked to diet deficiencies). A lunch like this is not abuse/neglect in of itself - as others have mentioned. For better or for worse, it kind of looks like the spread you'd see at a children's birthday party...
Sadly, I don't think they're stock photos. I think they are unstaged photos of real children, taken by adults without the knowledge of their parents, being passed around online as examples of poor parenting or even "child abuse." I feel like this is WORSE than OP taking them and posting them herself.
Great point. Was trying to be optimistic/hopeful but.. yeah, no, you're right - it's still inappropriate. That type of scenario is typically toxic and also has the same issues with consent, privacy, confidentiality, and shaming/bullying. That's still someone's kid.
More importantly, that's still a human being, whose value and claim to dignified treatment doesn't depend on their relationship to an adult.8
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.4K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 387 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.4K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 897 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.2K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions