In Defense of Recipes

kshama2001 · February 2023

This was in the recent newsletter from youtube food science vlogger Ethan Chlebowski.

I'm mostly a recipe user, especially when cooking for other people, except for super basic things like baked chicken that I have memorized. This fits my personality. When I was a yoga teacher, I rarely improvised, and was uncomfortable when students asked for that. In a class I take on Saturday AM, the teacher ALWAYS asks for requests at the beginning of the class. I bet he uses recipes less

None of the cooks/chefs I've been friends with ever used recipes. I wonder if cooking school teaches you so well you don't need them.

I like proportions, which can be critical for baked goods and still very important for savory recipes. I made Tom Ka Gai yesterday for myself and just looked at my cookbook for the proportion of coconut milk to stock, and improvised for the chicken, fish sauce, etc.

The article contrasts opinions in "La Pitchoune: Cooking in France," a new show on HBO Max, with those of Julie Child and the author.

https://www.eater.com/23488255/why-we-need-recipes

In Defense of Recipes

No-recipe recipes are great, but some of us need actual precise measurements to make the magic happen

AnnPT77 · February 2023

I get it, but something more like slapdash improvisation works better for me. I think it's a personality or style thing, not something that requires any kind of moral judgement about right/wrong.

(That said, I do feel sad for one of my friends, who seems literally afraid to experiment, even though she would like to . . . and in her case, it does seem to be part of an overall self-confidence issue about things she doesn't feel expert about . . . and it takes a lot for her to feel a little expert about anything/everything, including things she's great and knowledgeable at. Doesn't help that her husband is a little critical, and she's a little sensitive.)

I hear what you're saying about proportions. I care about that for recipes that I think have what I call "structural ingredients", i.e., things that if one doesn't get the proportions at least close, won't turn out to be the thing they're supposed to be, as in many baked goods. But most main dishes don't have many or any strict structural ingredients.

I do understand, though, that are rules of thumb for proportions, like approximately X amount of liquid to Y amount of flour and Z amount of baking powder in muffins, say - plus recognition of subs such as using buttermilk for the liquid then baking soda instead of baking powder, etc. Learning those (or looking them up) introduces more opportunity to experiment with baked goods and such.

I like cookbooks that make those rules of thumb explicit, or illustrate them by example. Two I personally have and like for that are:

Cookwise by Shirley Corriher - This one is very food science-y (because Corriher is a food scientist as well as cook), and very explicit about what each ingredient does structurally, and explicit about the rules of thumb for things like proportions of dry to liquid in various foods. From this, I learned that small things can be surprisingly important structural ingredient, such as salt in some baked goods.

Mrs. Restino's Country kitchen: The complete wood stove cookbook by Susan Restino - I don't have a woodstove, but she's very "we're out here in the backwoods so we substitute and improvise".

I also turn to my old home economics book from high school (circa 1970), Family Meals and Hospitality", by Lewis/Peckham/Hovey, 1960 edition. It has all kinds of basics, substitutions, diagnostics (what went wrong, how to fix it next time), general instructions and such in it.

I used more recipes when I was starting out, made all kinds of really awful things, learned from mistakes . . . decades later, winging it usually comes out OK. I still like looking at recipes, but mostly for the structural things, and new flavor profiles or combinations to try.

As far as the article you linked - which was interesting to read - I'm in the middle. I think recipes have a place, an important one, but for me they're more of an on-ramp to cooking more extemporaneously, a thing to facilitate learning. To me, if they're a straitjacket . . . that's not fun. I think that may be close to the author's perspective?

I remember visiting a friend's family cottage when I was in my 20s. His mom had a reputation as a gourmet cook, had taken all kinds of classes. She wanted me to make some kind of vegetarian main dish (because I'm a veggie from way back), so I improvised. I remember her asking - this surprised me! - how do you know which herbs to add? (Answer: I sniff them, decide whether that seems like it would taste good in the thing. She found this somewhat startling and I think a little freeing. I thought that was odd in someone who'd taken lots of gourmet cooking classes, still do. What did they teach?!)

My basic philosophy: What's the worst that could happen? One sub-ideal meal that's a learning experience. Totally worth it IMO, and fun.

I've been experimenting, trying to get a somewhat chewy, risen pizza crust that has a bit more protein and tastes like whole wheat. The most recent attempt, I overdid the vital wheat gluten (sort of too chewy, almost rubbery 😬). It was edible, but yeah, one sub-ideal meal. NBD. Next, I'll either back off to the previous version (not bad, but not perfect - if perfect is even achievable?), or try a different proportion of whole wheat flour and chickpea flour to vital wheat gluten, and learn something more. 🤷‍♀️

sollyn23l2 · February 2023

AnnPT77 wrote: »

I get it, but something more like slapdash improvisation works better for me. I think it's a personality or style thing, not something that requires any kind of moral judgement about right/wrong.

(That said, I do feel sad for one of my friends, who seems literally afraid to experiment, even though she would like to . . . and in her case, it does seem to be part of an overall self-confidence issue about things she doesn't feel expert about . . . and it takes a lot for her to feel a little expert about anything/everything, including things she's great and knowledgeable at. Doesn't help that her husband is a little critical, and she's a little sensitive.)

I hear what you're saying about proportions. I care about that for recipes that I think have what I call "structural ingredients", i.e., things that if one doesn't get the proportions at least close, won't turn out to be the thing they're supposed to be, as in many baked goods. But most main dishes don't have many or any strict structural ingredients.

I do understand, though, that are rules of thumb for proportions, like approximately X amount of liquid to Y amount of flour and Z amount of baking powder in muffins, say - plus recognition of subs such as using buttermilk for the liquid then baking soda instead of baking powder, etc. Learning those (or looking them up) introduces more opportunity to experiment with baked goods and such.

I like cookbooks that make those rules of thumb explicit, or illustrate them by example. Two I personally have and like for that are:

Cookwise by Shirley Corriher - This one is very food science-y (because Corriher is a food scientist as well as cook), and very explicit about what each ingredient does structurally, and explicit about the rules of thumb for things like proportions of dry to liquid in various foods. From this, I learned that small things can be surprisingly important structural ingredient, such as salt in some baked goods.

Mrs. Restino's Country kitchen: The complete wood stove cookbook by Susan Restino - I don't have a woodstove, but she's very "we're out here in the backwoods so we substitute and improvise".

I also turn to my old home economics book from high school (circa 1970), Family Meals and Hospitality", by Lewis/Peckham/Hovey, 1960 edition. It has all kinds of basics, substitutions, diagnostics (what went wrong, how to fix it next time), general instructions and such in it.

I used more recipes when I was starting out, made all kinds of really awful things, learned from mistakes . . . decades later, winging it usually comes out OK. I still like looking at recipes, but mostly for the structural things, and new flavor profiles or combinations to try.

As far as the article you linked - which was interesting to read - I'm in the middle. I think recipes have a place, an important one, but for me they're more of an on-ramp to cooking more extemporaneously, a thing to facilitate learning. To me, if they're a straitjacket . . . that's not fun. I think that may be close to the author's perspective?

I remember visiting a friend's family cottage when I was in my 20s. His mom had a reputation as a gourmet cook, had taken all kinds of classes. She wanted me to make some kind of vegetarian main dish (because I'm a veggie from way back), so I improvised. I remember her asking - this surprised me! - how do you know which herbs to add? (Answer: I sniff them, decide whether that seems like it would taste good in the thing. She found this somewhat startling and I think a little freeing. I thought that was odd in someone who'd taken lots of gourmet cooking classes, still do. What did they teach?!)

My basic philosophy: What's the worst that could happen? One sub-ideal meal that's a learning experience. Totally worth it IMO, and fun.

I've been experimenting, trying to get a somewhat chewy, risen pizza crust that has a bit more protein and tastes like whole wheat. The most recent attempt, I overdid the vital wheat gluten (sort of too chewy, almost rubbery 😬). It was edible, but yeah, one sub-ideal meal. NBD. Next, I'll either back off to the previous version (not bad, but not perfect - if perfect is even achievable?), or try a different proportion of whole wheat flour and chickpea flour to vital wheat gluten, and learn something more. 🤷‍♀️

Yep! Exactly this. I look up a recipe to find out the boundaries of how something is basically cooked, then play around with it quite a bit after I've done it once, and generally don't really follow a recipe per say after that.

lynn_glenmont · February 2023

Except for baking or candy-making or pudding (in the American sense) -- things where ratios and temperatures can be critical to achieving the desired result, I don't much use recipes.

When I do use recipes for things that don't fall into the baking, etc. categories, I use the recipes more like inspirations that I feel free to improvise on, or maybe I'm just checking on the spices typically used in something I've never made before.

And even for baking, etc., I frequently make substitutions of flavors, etc. (different spices, or different extracts in something sweet, different dried fruits or nuts, or even adding dried fruits, etc., to a recipe that didn't call for them). Or I might bake in different shapes or sizes (muffins instead of a cake, rolls instead of loaves, bar cookies instead of drop cookies).

Through the years I've occasionally used recipes that were intended to be flexible, like a recipe for vegetarian casseroles that was a "pick one each" from about five different categories (one grain, one legume, one "cream of" soup or broth + dried milk, one veggie, one "topping," like bread crumbs). Another was a chutney recipe that told you how much fruit, veg, sweet, sour, and spice to use, but you chose the actual fruits, etc.

snowflake954 · February 2023

My take--you need both. Recipes help you replicate a dish (my MIL made several things that the family loved, and so, in tribute to her memory, I make them now and again. I need the recipe to make them). And, when I'm trying something new I do a recipe search and follow it for the first time.

Otherwise, I cook for a family everyday and don't follow written recipes anymore. I just throw it all together and sometimes improvise. Sometimes someone asks me for the recipe and I have to try and write it down. Funny, when my 3 boys were little and we were at the beach I'd make "Pasta al Forno" (Oven baked pasta). My MIL made this often and I watched her make it, so I did everything the same. My boys were little but they kept telling me that mine wasn't as good as Nonna's. I finally pinned her down and asked step by step what went into hers. There was an ingredient I was missing that made all the difference.

ghrmj · February 2023

This is why I am a pretty good cook but a terrible baker - exact measuring and specific ingredients are not for me. Even if I am following a recipe I rarely stick to it exactly.

BarbaraHelen2013 · February 2023

I’m well known in my family for winging it! A common criticism is that I can’t necessarily replicate a dish they’ve really raved about because I don’t really know what I did!

Having said that I am always searching for recipes (mainly on Pinterest) as inspiration - don’t often follow one but it’s good to see the basic flavour profiles and mix and match ideas depending on what I have to hand.

I do, however, have a huge amount of recipes fully memorised for dishes my mum used to make and those family favourites that I made as the children were growing up. In fact, each child, when leaving home, was given a hand written recipe book containing all their favourites plus some basics that everyone needs to learn!

Recipes are essential for baking because that’s more of a chemical reaction thing than cooking. Recipes are great for the cautious or inexperienced cook or for those who can’t trust their palate to tell them what’s missing when they taste a dish.

I’ve been cooking long enough that I rarely use a recipe ‘as is’, but I value recipes despite rarely using one! 😂

neanderthin · February 2023

My opinion as a chef, is as long as a person enjoys cooking and whether they use a recipe or not you get enjoyment out of that for yourself and others, the more power to you. Does it mean your a good cook, no. My mother love to cook but she was a shoemaker when it came to cooking, while my grandmother was a great cook and of course limited in their repertoire of knowledge because, what you don't know, you don't know. The DNA missed a generation I'm guessing.

nossmf · February 2023

I almost always follow recipes. Even when I don't have the recipe before me because I've done it dozens of times and memorized it, I'm still essentially following the recipe. I may feel free to experiment with spices and herbs, and over the years my chili and sweet potato casseroles have adapted? mutated? transformed?

If that prevents me from being a great cook, fine. My kids eat what I prepare, my son in particular tells me each week he's at military basic training how much he misses my meals. Good enough for me.

neanderthin · February 2023

Thinking of cooking as a craft or a hobby and the attributes that contribute and facilitate better outcomes is for all intents and purposes in the context of cooking, a recipe. Whether someone wings it or follows a recipe in this endeavor, just keep in mind that methodology is an evil taskmaster.

springlering62 · February 2023

OT but I’ll take that pizza recipe when you perfect it @AnnPT77

Hiawassee88 · February 2023

@snowflake954 How long did you have to wait for that secret ingredient. That's what some great cooks do, leave one ingredient out. It keeps you guessing for the rest of your life.

snowflake954 · February 2023

Hiawassee88 wrote: »

@snowflake954 How long did you have to wait for that secret ingredient. That's what some great cooks do, leave one ingredient out. It keeps you guessing for the rest of your life.

Not long--once I asked.

Funny though. My mother's mother and her sister were extremely good cooks in a small town in Minnesota. When I graduated and moved into the city (Minneapolis) to work as an Interior Designer, I lived with my mother's aunt. Her husband had just died and she lived alone. Since her cooking was famous, people asked her for recipes all the time. She always winked at me and told me she had left out a key ingredient. I thought she was just kidding me--but you never know.

paperpudding · February 2023

I follow recipes for new things and in the rare instances I make cakes or muffins or suchlike.

but things I have made many times before I make from memory (i guess that is still following a basic recipe in my head) and things like soup I substitute things and don't measure at all but follow a basic format ( I guess that is what one might call a flexible recipe)

If someone asks for the recipe I write it down from my head - and it says things like exact amounts dont matter, you can omit this or that if you want, use different spices if you want

In Defense of Recipes

Replies

Categories