Open discussion on the minds ability to influence the physical body......

I've always believed that I need to work hard if I really want something. I don't believe in manifesting in any mystical way.

I see acquaintances on social media posting what I consider nonsense about manifesting money or great relationships or other benefits by power of thought. On average, I don't think those people get any better outcomes than others who don't try to manifest, but who put in equal effort.

Sure, if a person doesn't look for and take advantage of opportunities, some good things won't happen. It's necessary to keep looking around for opportunities to show up, because they don't always announce themselves loudly. It's also necessary to have some self belief.

I don't fully agree with Henry Ford there, either. If a person believes they can't, they can't. But believing they can (or at least having an open mind), while a necessary condition for succeeding, isn't remotely sufficient.

For sure, in my own life, there have been accomplishments that I didn't necessarily expect or believe would happen, but I was willing to work hard in a particular direction, and the positive outcome utterly surprised me. Sometimes persisting, and being open to an astonishing result, is enough.

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

paperpudding wrote: »

Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.

it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.

Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.

What's worse, it basically blames anyone who is unable to do something. Didn't beat cancer? Well, you just didn't BELIEVE hard enough. Didn't become an NFL quarterback? Come on, you just didn't believe hard enough, that's your fault. Didn't become a professional concert pianist? You, my friend, just didn't believe enough.

I’m laughing a little, I always love your responses. As you know it’s the message in the quote. If we are going to take everything this literally why say or do anything at all? Wedding vows- we can completely throw those out the window lol. However I, for one, CANNOT STAND the Live Laugh Love kitsch or pretty much any time someone posts motivational quotes. Mostly because it seems like those people live entirely the opposite of those sayings. Like they’re walking advertisements for how they want you to think of them. That’s why I don’t have Facebook or IG though.

As for easy things I say to myself to keep me accountable for my actions, this I actually do. I have a lot of self talk going on here though, you have no idea 😆.

ddsb1111 wrote: »

paperpudding wrote: »

Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.

it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.

Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.

That’s why I said there’s 2 parts to the equation. You can’t just think about it, you also have to do everything you can to make it happen. Maybe you could have been a world soccer champion if you invested and practiced since you were a kid, who knows.

When it comes to illness, your attitude effects how much you’ll invest in one’s treatment. If you don’t think you’ll get better so don’t get help, you likely won’t get better. If you believe you can get better and seek treatment, there’s a chance you can get better. This is the positive message that should be embraced. I like the simplicity of it, that’s why messages like this are especially great for kids. Just like, “You can do anything you put your mind to”. When kids believe they can, they’ll likely try far more for much longer than if they think they can’t. This can impact their entire life for the rest of their life. So, although you find it trite, it can be incredibly impactful. And you don’t just “not try” because “what if it doesn’t work”. I get asked that by the 2 Little’s I have in Big Brothers Big Sisters. They already want to give up before trying, and because of their circumstances I understand why. It’s my hope to replenish their self belief and confidence, and this quote gets the point across fairly easily.

To the bolded: I think it's not that simple in real humans. I say that from personal experience, from experience with multiple family members with terminal illnesses, and from having listened to many dozens of breast cancer survivors in a support group where I was active for around 20 years until it disbanded during the pandemic.

To be clear, the part I'm disputing is the implication that if something doesn't think they can get better, they won't get help. IME, often, despite despair, they will get help, follow a course of treatment . . . and some do get better.

It's exceedingly common at diagnosis and for a while after to feel doomed. When diagnosed at stage III, I wondered if I should even renew my magazine subscriptions. Trivial as that is, it's indicative of state of mind. My mother had died a few years before from an earlier stage of the cancer I had, and my husband had died quite recently from different cancer. I felt no assurance of success, but still felt an obligation to try that I can't honestly call hope. Duty, maybe.

Possibly you've been through something similar, and felt differently. Still, for myself, and for many others who've poured out their hearts in my presence, thinking you can't get better doesn't mean disengaging from treatment. I don't have a great logical explanation for that, but that's what I've experienced.

Still, as I said before, if someone truly doesn't seek treatment because they think it can't work, that's probably going to lead to a worse outcome, of course. But belief that treatment can work isn't the only thing that motivates people to invest effort into getting treatment and sticking it out.

ddsb1111 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

paperpudding wrote: »

Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.

it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.

Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.

What's worse, it basically blames anyone who is unable to do something. Didn't beat cancer? Well, you just didn't BELIEVE hard enough. Didn't become an NFL quarterback? Come on, you just didn't believe hard enough, that's your fault. Didn't become a professional concert pianist? You, my friend, just didn't believe enough.

I’m laughing a little, I always love your responses. As you know it’s the message in the quote. If we are going to take everything this literally why say or do anything at all? Wedding vows- we can completely throw those out the window lol. However I, for one, CANNOT STAND the Live Laugh Love kitsch or pretty much any time someone posts motivational quotes. Mostly because it seems like those people live entirely the opposite of those sayings. Like they’re walking advertisements for how they want you to think of them. That’s why I don’t have Facebook or IG though.

As for easy things I say to myself to keep me accountable for my actions, this I actually do. I have a lot of self talk going on here though, you have no idea 😆.

Quite honestly, I did take my wedding vows seriously and literally. We revised the standard language (only slightly) to be what we thought was realistic, and I considered myself bound by what I'd said. I'm not saying I was always perfect - the vows are IMO aspirational - but I strove to live by what I'd promised. I'm not saying I would never have divorced, either . . . the other party breaking the vows might be a basis.

I'm not criticizing you here: I just think we see the world very differently, interpret the quotes and language differently. People thinking differently is part of what makes life interesting, sincerely.

ddsb1111 wrote: »

paperpudding wrote: »

Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.

it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.

Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.

That’s why I said there’s 2 parts to the equation. You can’t just think about it, you also have to do everything you can to make it happen. Maybe you could have been a world soccer champion if you invested and practiced since you were a kid, who knows.

When it comes to illness, your attitude effects how much you’ll invest in one’s treatment. If you don’t think you’ll get better so don’t get help, you likely won’t get better. If you believe you can get better and seek treatment, there’s a chance you can get better. This is the positive message that should be embraced. I like the simplicity of it, that’s why messages like this are especially great for kids. Just like, “You can do anything you put your mind to”. When kids believe they can, they’ll likely try far more for much longer than if they think they can’t. This can impact their entire life for the rest of their life. So, although you find it trite, it can be incredibly impactful. And you don’t just “not try” because “what if it doesn’t work”. I get asked that by the 2 Little’s I have in Big Brothers Big Sisters. They already want to give up before trying, and because of their circumstances I understand why. It’s my hope to replenish their self belief and confidence, and this quote gets the point across fairly easily.

I dont agree with that - my point in fact was that no matter how much I beleive and put in effort (nobody is saying things will just be achieved without effort) everything is not acheivable just by believing it is, even with maximum effort at it.

"If you believe you can get better and seek treatment, there’s a chance you can get better" - no, sometimes there isnt.
No matter how much positive thinking and treatment you do, sometimes there really isnt or it really doesnt work out that way.

Obviously if ones actions are different - ( ie seeking treatment or not, practicing a skill or not) ) that will affect outcomes - but that isnt the same as thinking believing you will get better/ be a champion/earn a million dollars , even with maximum effort, means you will or vice versa.

One thing about goals is they must be acheivable and realistic - this if you believe you can do/be anything , -is a recipe for disappointment and regrets IMO

even your sentence to me - "maybe you could of been a world soccer star if your practiced as a kid, who knows" - no, I would not have been regardless of how much practice because for most people of average ability ( or really anything less than outstanding ability) and opportunity that is an unrealistic goal.

re another point - not sure what part of wedding vows are not meant to be taken literally? - I certainly took mine literally.

Fairly sure our frendly Aussie is fine and is presenting an example!!!

paperpudding wrote: »

Like people with similar degenerative conditions, say, muscular dystrophy or motor neurone disease or Huntingtons disease - absolutely no amount of positive thinking or compliance with treatment or believing anything will change the outcome.

But don't you hope that someone, somewhere is saying, "Of course there's a cure! And we will find it. Let's get to work."

collinsje1 wrote: »

paperpudding wrote: »

ddsb1111 wrote: »

paperpudding wrote: »

Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.

it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.

Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.

That’s why I said there’s 2 parts to the equation. You can’t just think about it, you also have to do everything you can to make it happen. Maybe you could have been a world soccer champion if you invested and practiced since you were a kid, who knows.

When it comes to illness, your attitude effects how much you’ll invest in one’s treatment. If you don’t think you’ll get better so don’t get help, you likely won’t get better. If you believe you can get better and seek treatment, there’s a chance you can get better. This is the positive message that should be embraced. I like the simplicity of it, that’s why messages like this are especially great for kids. Just like, “You can do anything you put your mind to”. When kids believe they can, they’ll likely try far more for much longer than if they think they can’t. This can impact their entire life for the rest of their life. So, although you find it trite, it can be incredibly impactful. And you don’t just “not try” because “what if it doesn’t work”. I get asked that by the 2 Little’s I have in Big Brothers Big Sisters. They already want to give up before trying, and because of their circumstances I understand why. It’s my hope to replenish their self belief and confidence, and this quote gets the point across fairly easily.

I dont agree with that - my point in fact was that no matter how much I beleive and put in effort (nobody is saying things will just be achieved without effort) everything is not acheivable just by believing it is, even with maximum effort at it.

"If you believe you can get better and seek treatment, there’s a chance you can get better" - no, sometimes there isnt.
No matter how much positive thinking and treatment you do, sometimes there really isnt or it really doesnt work out that way.

Obviously if ones actions are different - ( ie seeking treatment or not, practicing a skill or not) ) that will affect outcomes - but that isnt the same as thinking believing you will get better/ be a champion/earn a million dollars , even with maximum effort, means you will or vice versa.

One thing about goals is they must be acheivable and realistic - this if you believe you can do/be anything , -is a recipe for disappointment and regrets IMO

even your sentence to me - "maybe you could of been a world soccer star if your practiced as a kid, who knows" - no, I would not have been regardless of how much practice because for most people of average ability ( or really anything less than outstanding ability) and opportunity that is an unrealistic goal.

re another point - not sure what part of wedding vows are not meant to be taken literally? - I certainly took mine literally.

If the outcome is the same regardless of if you believe wholeheartedly in it or not. Wouldn't it be better on a person to believe in themselves and be happy about the it rather than be pissed off and upset because you know you're going to fail anyway.

Seems like whether it would be better or not is going to depend on how ticked off and upset they might be after a long span of believing, working hard, then utterly failing. Also, if I correctly judged that I'd fail at something, why would I waste my time striving after it? That would be pretty dumb, IMO.

Fundamentally, I think we're arguing in cartoon-simplistic terms here. In a practical sense, some things are so improbable that believing one can do them is misplaced, even delusional. Other things are really really unlikely, but possible, and how much effort to invest is a question of how possible, and how important to the person involved. In actual specific cases, quite a range of people will be able to sort out where a particular thing falls. (Some won't, and may benefit from pep talks or other remedial tactics).

If we simply talk in the abstract, in generalities - not about a particular type of goal for a particular sort of person - the discussion is going nowhere but around and around. As a 67-year-old woman with bad knees, I'm not going to win the Olympic gold medal in marathon, and it would be pretty stupid for me to believe in myself and dedicate most of my time to it, y'know? OTOH, if the goal was to age-group medal in some non-knee stressful sport in a local or regional competition, that's maybe worth pursuing, even if it's a stretch.

Personally, as a generality and in the abstract, I'm a fan of working hard toward something - at least some kinds of things, such as a fitness achievement, or a weight loss goal - and keeping an open mind about what that hard, committed work will bring me. It's going to be something good, for sure . . . maybe better than I'd expected, which is excellent. (If you had told 45-year-old me what 67-year-old me's lifestyle would be, that kiddo wouldn't have remotely believed you. But the good stuff happened anyway.)

Also, if everyone only set goals that were achievable/realistic as they currently see themselves, society/humans/people in general wouldn't be where we are today. It's kind of like you don't know what you can do until you try something and believe that you can do that thing.

Like I said, suspending disbelief and committing to the work is sufficient in at least some cases.

Also, I'd observe that goals can be incremental. This definitely happens in science: Someone starts researching some specific relatively small thing, learns more, broadens their scope, and down the road some years after learning more and gradually setting new and bigger goals, finds (just an example) an effective treatment for some kind of cancer. They didn't need to believe at the start that they could reach that particular outcome, just that they could achieve something interesting to science.

And to not believe that you can do/be anything you want to at 6 years old is well...frankly sad.

Well, I look at it as practical/logical.

You know there isn't a Santa Clause, right? ..and sure, I'd tell my kid there is a Santa. You make a good point, I just don't think we are really fooling them and at some point I stopped believing my parents completely after they told me enough parroted (and useless) "advice" - and not believing my parents was hugely dangerous for a 14 year old girl.

"Stay in school so you can afford to pay your bills, and hey, you may find yourself paying all the bills so be careful." That's actually helpful. How to budget the money you do make, even more helpful...