Open discussion on the minds ability to influence the physical body......
collinsje1
Posts: 54 Member
I want to know how other people feel or think about this.
Lately I have been listening to a lot of podcasts/videos about the "powers" of the mind. In that you can "manifest/will" (for lack of a better term) things into existence.
An example of this would be, someone tells you, you can't do something, and you believe what they told you. So now you can't do it (I.E. lose weight, get that job, raise children etc.)
Another example, A doctor/nutritionist/blog post says that aspartame is bad for you and can make you sick, so you suddenly develop "symptoms" due to having a diet soda.
I believe that a lot of physical limitations that people suffer from are only brought on because that person believes it in their mind. And that the mind/will of a person is way more powerful than most people realize. We see it all the time with things like cancer for example, (I do realize that this doesn't happen every time) where a person gets diagnosed with a terminal cancer, and are given a life sentence, but through positive attitude and the will to live on they beat the diagnosis.
Or we've seen the opposite where a healthy person can literally lay down and die because they gave up the will to live, completely in their mind.
Does anyone else think/feel this way? That some people have physical issues/illness/limitations/disease...just because someone/something they read told them that they could/or do....and now they have it stuck in their head, so they believe they do.
This all probably sounds like rambling nonsense but i was wondering if anybody else had any thoughts on this.
Lately I have been listening to a lot of podcasts/videos about the "powers" of the mind. In that you can "manifest/will" (for lack of a better term) things into existence.
An example of this would be, someone tells you, you can't do something, and you believe what they told you. So now you can't do it (I.E. lose weight, get that job, raise children etc.)
Another example, A doctor/nutritionist/blog post says that aspartame is bad for you and can make you sick, so you suddenly develop "symptoms" due to having a diet soda.
I believe that a lot of physical limitations that people suffer from are only brought on because that person believes it in their mind. And that the mind/will of a person is way more powerful than most people realize. We see it all the time with things like cancer for example, (I do realize that this doesn't happen every time) where a person gets diagnosed with a terminal cancer, and are given a life sentence, but through positive attitude and the will to live on they beat the diagnosis.
Or we've seen the opposite where a healthy person can literally lay down and die because they gave up the will to live, completely in their mind.
Does anyone else think/feel this way? That some people have physical issues/illness/limitations/disease...just because someone/something they read told them that they could/or do....and now they have it stuck in their head, so they believe they do.
This all probably sounds like rambling nonsense but i was wondering if anybody else had any thoughts on this.
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Replies
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I believe in some of this stuff to an extent.
I don’t believe that everything can be manifested.. like if I wanted to win the lottery, I can’t just “will it” to be.. that’s not how things work obviously, but you can definitely train your mind to overcome a lot of things. And if you ever looked into the placebo effect that is pretty much the same thing.4 -
I agree with @kbrown1527. We all can't will ourselves to win the lottery, although it would be nice!
But the power of positive thinking is immense. Mindset and attitude are SO important to the quality of our daily lives.
And, yes, I also agree with OP about some people believing they have some (or any and all) illness or symptoms simply because they heard about it or someone told them something, because that perfectly describes my parents, unfortunately.
Good topic. I hope others chime in.2 -
I agree with what the both of you are saying @kbrown1527 & @BZAH10, in that you can will your self to win the lottery directly.
@BZAH10 I perfectly understand what you are saying as it describes my in-laws as well. Example my mother in-law has minor osteo-perosis. (Which is a real thing, and she probably does have it). But because of that, she read somewhere on the internet that, if you have that you should lift or carry more than 10 pounds. So, she literally refuses to pick up anything from anywhere and makes my father-in-law do it all. She wouldn't even hold her grandkids when they were new Borns unless she was sitting down, and she wouldn't pick them up by herself. and she is plenty capable. I'm not trying to say that she should ignore what her doctor told her but the taking it to extremes as some people do is a little excessive. Plus, it leads itself into the attitude of poor me.
And yes I really hope others will chime in as well, as I think this could be an interesting discussion.
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collinsje1 wrote: »I want to know how other people feel or think about this.
Lately I have been listening to a lot of podcasts/videos about the "powers" of the mind. In that you can "manifest/will" (for lack of a better term) things into existence.
An example of this would be, someone tells you, you can't do something, and you believe what they told you. So now you can't do it (I.E. lose weight, get that job, raise children etc.)
Another example, A doctor/nutritionist/blog post says that aspartame is bad for you and can make you sick, so you suddenly develop "symptoms" due to having a diet soda.
I believe that a lot of physical limitations that people suffer from are only brought on because that person believes it in their mind. And that the mind/will of a person is way more powerful than most people realize. We see it all the time with things like cancer for example, (I do realize that this doesn't happen every time) where a person gets diagnosed with a terminal cancer, and are given a life sentence, but through positive attitude and the will to live on they beat the diagnosis.
Or we've seen the opposite where a healthy person can literally lay down and die because they gave up the will to live, completely in their mind.
Does anyone else think/feel this way? That some people have physical issues/illness/limitations/disease...just because someone/something they read told them that they could/or do....and now they have it stuck in their head, so they believe they do.
This all probably sounds like rambling nonsense but i was wondering if anybody else had any thoughts on this.
The bolded thing has been studied via research on cancer patients. Positive attitude has no significant effect on survival rates. Please don't say that cancer patients need to be positive or they're more likely to die: That's a heavy burden to put on someone going through something I think that objectively would discourage anyone, and that appears to possibly actually have depression as a disease side effect.
(For context, I'm a survivor of advanced-stage cancer. During treatment, I tried to stay positive so that I could keep going through daily life responsibilities at all in the face of the fatigue, brain fog and other side effects . . . but I did become depressed and anxious to the point of requiring treatment for that. That's not my normal nature.)
It is true that mindset is powerful and somewhat mysterious. Placebo effect (and nocebo effect) are documented, and can literally have physical effects (via hormone levels, for example), not just attitudinal (psychological) effects.
That's on top of the obvious common sense that if someone thinks they can't do something, they're not very like to commit to a serious effort.
In case you are interested in an example of mindset on the body:
You probably know that the hormone ghrelin is sometimes called "the hunger hormone", because it affects our drive to eat. In that connection, here's a research abstract that's just a little teaser about the importance of mindset:Objective: To test whether physiological satiation as measured by the gut peptide ghrelin may vary depending on the mindset in which one approaches consumption of food.
Methods: On 2 separate occasions, participants (n = 46) consumed a 380-calorie milkshake under the pretense that it was either a 620-calorie "indulgent" shake or a 140-calorie "sensible" shake. Ghrelin was measured via intravenous blood samples at 3 time points: baseline (20 min), anticipatory (60 min), and postconsumption (90 min). During the first interval (between 20 and 60 min) participants were asked to view and rate the (misleading) label of the shake. During the second interval (between 60 and 90 min) participants were asked to drink and rate the milkshake.
Results: The mindset of indulgence produced a dramatically steeper decline in ghrelin after consuming the shake, whereas the mindset of sensibility produced a relatively flat ghrelin response. Participants' satiety was consistent with what they believed they were consuming rather than the actual nutritional value of what they consumed.
Conclusions: The effect of food consumption on ghrelin may be psychologically mediated, and mindset meaningfully affects physiological responses to food.
Cite: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21574706/
This small study is discussed in an episode of Hidden Brain, along with a number of other studies that have involved mindset and its literal physiological (bodily) effects. Worth a bit of a think, maybe. Here's the episode:
https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/reframing-your-reality-part-2/
It's a little long (52 minutes), but IMO very interesting and applicable. There was also a part 1, more about mindset and stress response, i.e., more the psychology of mindset in part 1, vs. the impact on the body in part 2.9 -
@AnnPT77 I didn't mean any offense, and I apologize. I guess I should have used something else as an example. And I didn't mean to insinuate in that particular example that someone is more likely to die if they can't keep up a positive attitude while going through a cancer battle. It never crossed my mind that way. So again, I apologize.
And for what it's worth, I am glad you beat it, and glad that you are here!!10 -
I didn't mention your cancer comment because I thought it might cause some issues, although I know you didn't intend it to. And because I had a friend who was diagnosed with breast cancer and was extremely positive that she'd beat it, but she also rejected standard Western medicine and treatments and only pursued holistic treatment, so unfortunately, she did not beat the cancer, despite her positive attitude.
Still, a good topic for discussion because "mind over matter" is a thing in a lot of other instances.6 -
I am a cancer survivor, too. I think attitude greatly influences outcome. In ways that studies wouldn't show. My mom had breast cancer. She trusted the Doctors completely, did everything they said. Lived 7 years after diagnosed. My cousin has breast cancer. First thing she said was huh-uh. It's not getting me. About 20 years ago. She's still here, planning her next trip. Brother got cancer. Said I'm not fighting it. Don't want to live that way. Only treated for pain. Lived 1.5 years. I'm sure the studies would show treatments and outcome, but not how hard the person fought for or against that treatment.
Yes, I definitely believe attitude influences outcome. Doesn't dictate it. And certainly doesn't dictate other people's influence on it, as in the case of the lottery.
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But a more obvious example is staring us in the face. We all believe our mind can influence our body's weight. That's why we're here.3
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Corina1143 wrote: »I am a cancer survivor, too. I think attitude greatly influences outcome. In ways that studies wouldn't show. My mom had breast cancer. She trusted the Doctors completely, did everything they said. Lived 7 years after diagnosed. My cousin has breast cancer. First thing she said was huh-uh. It's not getting me. About 20 years ago. She's still here, planning her next trip. Brother got cancer. Said I'm not fighting it. Don't want to live that way. Only treated for pain. Lived 1.5 years. I'm sure the studies would show treatments and outcome, but not how hard the person fought for or against that treatment.
Yes, I definitely believe attitude influences outcome. Doesn't dictate it. And certainly doesn't dictate other people's influence on it, as in the case of the lottery.
If someone's attitude influences their treatment choices, or their lifestyle choices after diagnosis, that absolutely could influence the outcome. IIRC, the research compared people who were similar in diagnosis & treatment choices, but different in attitudes. It's been a while since I read up on it, though.collinsje1 wrote: »@AnnPT77 I didn't mean any offense, and I apologize. I guess I should have used something else as an example. And I didn't mean to insinuate in that particular example that someone is more likely to die if they can't keep up a positive attitude while going through a cancer battle. It never crossed my mind that way. So again, I apologize.
And for what it's worth, I am glad you beat it, and glad that you are here!!
@collinsje1, I'm confident that you didn't. I can over-react to things like that, I know. I honestly didn't mean to make you feel bad! I do want anyone going through treatment to feel that they should not feel guilty or doomed if they get depressed or anxious after diagnosis, and I'm sure you'd also want that.
Most people are very kind, and very well-meaning (even if occasionally awkward or undiplomatic) about someone else's cancer diagnosis. But it's unbelievable what a very few people will say, and seemingly mean. (Example: Saying or implying that if one followed their specific religion, one wouldn't get cancer. Even if they believe that, it's 100% not the thing to say!)3 -
There’s a motto I live by
“That which you hold in your mind on a consistent basis is that which you will experience in your life.”
I whole heartedly believe in manifestation. I’ve used creative visualization methods to create my life for many many years. I’m literally, almost, the vision I hold of myself in my mind, my lifestyle already fits that vision, the mind is powerful.. dream big…4 -
When my mom got lung cancer, initially she was very discouraged and uninterested in treatment. The oncologist urged the family to convince her to fight it, and we did. She seemed very upbeat for a few days until the doctor came back and said it was untreatable. So she got to go through the whole process of accepting her death again in the two weeks before she died.
Yay for positive thinking.6 -
Last year, I accepted the inevitability of a surgery that should have been unnecessary, if only I could have made it to menopause, which I was not able to do. I'd been dead set against it for many years. I did trust the GYN who said it was now medically necessary, and the ONC/GYN to whom she referred me. (There was fortunately no cancer, but they were only able to ascertain this after the surgery.)
I borrowed Prepare for Surgery, Heal Faster with Relaxation and Quick Start CD: A Guide of Mind-Body Techniques from the library and bought the visualization mp3 from the author's website. I did have a very good outcome. No way to know if all the mental prep I did ahead of time had any effect. It did certainly reduce my anxiety; no doubt about that. I created healing statements for the anesthesiologist to read to me before I went under, and that was very soothing.
I also made a post here asking the community to send me positive thoughts at the time of my surgery, and the respondents did, for which I am very grateful
Now, if only I can harness my mind to lose weight...
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Not sure if hypnosis counts as part of the discussion - but it is a mind influencing outcomes example.
Not talking about silly stage hypnosis where people (supposedly) think they are chickens or whatever - but useful deliberate purposes.
My husband used to smoke - he smoked at least a packet a day and tried to give up umpteen times, never lasting more than half a day.
went to hypnosis and literally never smoked again.
that was 3o years ago.
I cannot explain how it worked - but it definitely did.5 -
PBS has a 2 part documentary series about the brain. Fascinating stuff about various parts of the brain and the role they play in our lives. Very applicable to weight control4
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Thanks everyone for your replies on this, I do find this topic to be extremely interesting.
I think that some of this also has to do with the "power of positivity" I see it at work a lot with my co-workers and customers. And it usually starts right off the bat with the first interaction. Example, arrive at work and say, "good morning, guy's, how's it going today", someone will always say "well its going" or " well were here" and those people always seem to have bad days. I literally asked a guy one day, " have you ever had a day that wasn't bad, or where you were happy just to be alive".
I think our attitude/disposition can affect the things that happen in our daily lives. Like if you wake up in the morning and are already mad/irritated its more than likely going to set the tone of the whole day like that. Whereas if you can wake up and find something to be thankful for / happy about the day has a better chance to be a positive day.
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collinsje1 wrote: »Thanks everyone for your replies on this, I do find this topic to be extremely interesting.
I think that some of this also has to do with the "power of positivity" I see it at work a lot with my co-workers and customers. And it usually starts right off the bat with the first interaction. Example, arrive at work and say, "good morning, guy's, how's it going today", someone will always say "well its going" or " well were here" and those people always seem to have bad days. I literally asked a guy one day, " have you ever had a day that wasn't bad, or where you were happy just to be alive".
I think our attitude/disposition can affect the things that happen in our daily lives. Like if you wake up in the morning and are already mad/irritated its more than likely going to set the tone of the whole day like that. Whereas if you can wake up and find something to be thankful for / happy about the day has a better chance to be a positive day.
This is probably more appropriate for friends you haven't seen in a while, especially those who have gone through difficult times, than for coworkers you see every day:
I attended a resilience talk a few weeks ago. The presenter mentioned she now greets people with, "It's good to see you" rather than asking, "How are you?"
Adapting this to coworkers, I'd leave it at "Good morning."
The bolded reminds me of the topic of Toxic Positivity (not saying you're doing it; I can't know from that one comment.)
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-positivity-5093958
Toxic positivity is the belief that no matter how dire or difficult a situation is, people should maintain a positive mindset. While there are benefits to being optimistic and engaging in positive thinking, toxic positivity rejects all difficult emotions in favor of a cheerful and often falsely-positive façade.
Having a positive outlook on life is good for your mental well-being.1 The problem is that life isn't always positive. We all have painful emotions and experiences. Those emotions, while often unpleasant, need to be felt and dealt with openly and honestly to achieve acceptance and greater psychological health.2
Toxic positivity takes positive thinking to an overgeneralized extreme. This attitude doesn't just stress the importance of optimism—it also minimizes and even denies any trace of human emotions not strictly happy or positive.
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collinsje1 wrote: »I want to know how other people feel or think about this.
Lately I have been listening to a lot of podcasts/videos about the "powers" of the mind. In that you can "manifest/will" (for lack of a better term) things into existence.
An example of this would be, someone tells you, you can't do something, and you believe what they told you. So now you can't do it (I.E. lose weight, get that job, raise children etc.)
Another example, A doctor/nutritionist/blog post says that aspartame is bad for you and can make you sick, so you suddenly develop "symptoms" due to having a diet soda.
I believe that a lot of physical limitations that people suffer from are only brought on because that person believes it in their mind. And that the mind/will of a person is way more powerful than most people realize. We see it all the time with things like cancer for example, (I do realize that this doesn't happen every time) where a person gets diagnosed with a terminal cancer, and are given a life sentence, but through positive attitude and the will to live on they beat the diagnosis.
Or we've seen the opposite where a healthy person can literally lay down and die because they gave up the will to live, completely in their mind.
Does anyone else think/feel this way? That some people have physical issues/illness/limitations/disease...just because someone/something they read told them that they could/or do....and now they have it stuck in their head, so they believe they do.
This all probably sounds like rambling nonsense but i was wondering if anybody else had any thoughts on this.
The bolded thing has been studied via research on cancer patients. Positive attitude has no significant effect on survival rates. Please don't say that cancer patients need to be positive or they're more likely to die: That's a heavy burden to put on someone going through something I think that objectively would discourage anyone, and that appears to possibly actually have depression as a disease side effect.
(For context, I'm a survivor of advanced-stage cancer. During treatment, I tried to stay positive so that I could keep going through daily life responsibilities at all in the face of the fatigue, brain fog and other side effects . . . but I did become depressed and anxious to the point of requiring treatment for that. That's not my normal nature.)
It is true that mindset is powerful and somewhat mysterious. Placebo effect (and nocebo effect) are documented, and can literally have physical effects (via hormone levels, for example), not just attitudinal (psychological) effects.
That's on top of the obvious common sense that if someone thinks they can't do something, they're not very like to commit to a serious effort.
In case you are interested in an example of mindset on the body:
You probably know that the hormone ghrelin is sometimes called "the hunger hormone", because it affects our drive to eat. In that connection, here's a research abstract that's just a little teaser about the importance of mindset:Objective: To test whether physiological satiation as measured by the gut peptide ghrelin may vary depending on the mindset in which one approaches consumption of food.
Methods: On 2 separate occasions, participants (n = 46) consumed a 380-calorie milkshake under the pretense that it was either a 620-calorie "indulgent" shake or a 140-calorie "sensible" shake. Ghrelin was measured via intravenous blood samples at 3 time points: baseline (20 min), anticipatory (60 min), and postconsumption (90 min). During the first interval (between 20 and 60 min) participants were asked to view and rate the (misleading) label of the shake. During the second interval (between 60 and 90 min) participants were asked to drink and rate the milkshake.
Results: The mindset of indulgence produced a dramatically steeper decline in ghrelin after consuming the shake, whereas the mindset of sensibility produced a relatively flat ghrelin response. Participants' satiety was consistent with what they believed they were consuming rather than the actual nutritional value of what they consumed.
Conclusions: The effect of food consumption on ghrelin may be psychologically mediated, and mindset meaningfully affects physiological responses to food.
Cite: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21574706/
This small study is discussed in an episode of Hidden Brain, along with a number of other studies that have involved mindset and its literal physiological (bodily) effects. Worth a bit of a think, maybe. Here's the episode:
https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/reframing-your-reality-part-2/
It's a little long (52 minutes), but IMO very interesting and applicable. There was also a part 1, more about mindset and stress response, i.e., more the psychology of mindset in part 1, vs. the impact on the body in part 2.
Part 1 is a fascinating listen as well. I listened to both while I was doing yardwork.1 -
collinsje1 wrote: »Thanks everyone for your replies on this, I do find this topic to be extremely interesting.
I think that some of this also has to do with the "power of positivity" I see it at work a lot with my co-workers and customers. And it usually starts right off the bat with the first interaction. Example, arrive at work and say, "good morning, guy's, how's it going today", someone will always say "well its going" or " well were here" and those people always seem to have bad days. I literally asked a guy one day, " have you ever had a day that wasn't bad, or where you were happy just to be alive".
I think our attitude/disposition can affect the things that happen in our daily lives. Like if you wake up in the morning and are already mad/irritated its more than likely going to set the tone of the whole day like that. Whereas if you can wake up and find something to be thankful for / happy about the day has a better chance to be a positive day.
I'm wondering, with your coworkers, if maybe you're a little uncomfortable with the idea that they're not living up to the stipulated social contract of "I ask you how your day is, and you say good, or ok". But, to be fair... when someone asks me how it's going... I nearly always respond with "it's going". Because I understand they don't actually care how it's going, they don't really want to hear a story about it, they just want a quick, standardized reply to acknowledge that they've acknowledged my existence. Society is weird.8 -
paperpudding wrote: »Not sure if hypnosis counts as part of the discussion - but it is a mind influencing outcomes example.
Not talking about silly stage hypnosis where people (supposedly) think they are chickens or whatever - but useful deliberate purposes.
My husband used to smoke - he smoked at least a packet a day and tried to give up umpteen times, never lasting more than half a day.
went to hypnosis and literally never smoked again.
that was 3o years ago.
I cannot explain how it worked - but it definitely did.
Now that you mention it, hypnosis helped my sleep interruption insomnia more than anything else I ever tried, and I tried so. many. things.
I was a skeptic, but I was at "I'll try anything."kshama2001 wrote: »(snip)
. . . reminds me of the topic of Toxic Positivity (not saying you're doing it; I can't know from that one comment.)
(snip)
What is or isn't toxic positivity may be somewhat in the eye of the receiver, since human interaction is always pretty fraught. I agree that it can be a real thing, though.
I honestly try to believe that people mean well, no matter the awkward comments, but sometimes it's difficult to impossible to do. Inappropriate positivity is one of the instances, for me. Some things that happen really deserve something more like "I'm so sorry that you're going through that" instead (or in front of?) of "things happen for a reason" or whatever.
Sometimes "happiness is a choice", sure . . . but there are times when it objectively just isn't on a person's menu given circumstances.5 -
Picking up a couple of points in previous posts - I read the link about toxic positivity and it is very thought provoking.
There has been Are you Ok? day here for a few years and one of the messages is Its Ok to not be Ok - meaning you dont have to pretend everything is Ok when it is not, you are coping when you are not etc
I find most positivity memes and sayings rather trite and meaningless; responding to people saying they are not coping or are in a difficult situation with "Happiness is a choice" is insensitive and unhelpful
I personally dont like "How are you?" as a greeting in casual situations - much better IMO to say Hello, Good morning, etc without a question whose answer you do not want or care about or have time for
I do say "How are you?" to people but only when I actually want to know the answer and have time to listen to it - ie not in passing but in real conversations with people I know and care about3 -
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”
Henry Ford
Many people miss the biggest part about manifesting. You have to create it in your mind THEN act on it everyday with sincere intention, for it to manifest.
For example, Jim Carrey is known for his story about writing himself a million dollar check and then visualized cashing it. What he didn’t say is that he would put himself out there and work his *kitten* off to make it happen until it did. I think it’s 2 parts of the same equation.2 -
Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.
it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.
Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.7 -
paperpudding wrote: »Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.
it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.
Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.
What's worse, it basically blames anyone who is unable to do something. Didn't beat cancer? Well, you just didn't BELIEVE hard enough. Didn't become an NFL quarterback? Come on, you just didn't believe hard enough, that's your fault. Didn't become a professional concert pianist? You, my friend, just didn't believe enough.5 -
I've always believed that I need to work hard if I really want something. I don't believe in manifesting in any mystical way.
I see acquaintances on social media posting what I consider nonsense about manifesting money or great relationships or other benefits by power of thought. On average, I don't think those people get any better outcomes than others who don't try to manifest, but who put in equal effort.
Sure, if a person doesn't look for and take advantage of opportunities, some good things won't happen. It's necessary to keep looking around for opportunities to show up, because they don't always announce themselves loudly. It's also necessary to have some self belief.
I don't fully agree with Henry Ford there, either. If a person believes they can't, they can't. But believing they can (or at least having an open mind), while a necessary condition for succeeding, isn't remotely sufficient.
For sure, in my own life, there have been accomplishments that I didn't necessarily expect or believe would happen, but I was willing to work hard in a particular direction, and the positive outcome utterly surprised me. Sometimes persisting, and being open to an astonishing result, is enough.2 -
paperpudding wrote: »Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.
it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.
Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.
That’s why I said there’s 2 parts to the equation. You can’t just think about it, you also have to do everything you can to make it happen. Maybe you could have been a world soccer champion if you invested and practiced since you were a kid, who knows.
When it comes to illness, your attitude effects how much you’ll invest in one’s treatment. If you don’t think you’ll get better so don’t get help, you likely won’t get better. If you believe you can get better and seek treatment, there’s a chance you can get better. This is the positive message that should be embraced. I like the simplicity of it, that’s why messages like this are especially great for kids. Just like, “You can do anything you put your mind to”. When kids believe they can, they’ll likely try far more for much longer than if they think they can’t. This can impact their entire life for the rest of their life. So, although you find it trite, it can be incredibly impactful. And you don’t just “not try” because “what if it doesn’t work”. I get asked that by the 2 Little’s I have in Big Brothers Big Sisters. They already want to give up before trying, and because of their circumstances I understand why. It’s my hope to replenish their self belief and confidence, and this quote gets the point across fairly easily.4 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.
it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.
Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.
What's worse, it basically blames anyone who is unable to do something. Didn't beat cancer? Well, you just didn't BELIEVE hard enough. Didn't become an NFL quarterback? Come on, you just didn't believe hard enough, that's your fault. Didn't become a professional concert pianist? You, my friend, just didn't believe enough.
I’m laughing a little, I always love your responses. As you know it’s the message in the quote. If we are going to take everything this literally why say or do anything at all? Wedding vows- we can completely throw those out the window lol. However I, for one, CANNOT STAND the Live Laugh Love kitsch or pretty much any time someone posts motivational quotes. Mostly because it seems like those people live entirely the opposite of those sayings. Like they’re walking advertisements for how they want you to think of them. That’s why I don’t have Facebook or IG though.
As for easy things I say to myself to keep me accountable for my actions, this I actually do. I have a lot of self talk going on here though, you have no idea 😆.2 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.
it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.
Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.
What's worse, it basically blames anyone who is unable to do something. Didn't beat cancer? Well, you just didn't BELIEVE hard enough. Didn't become an NFL quarterback? Come on, you just didn't believe hard enough, that's your fault. Didn't become a professional concert pianist? You, my friend, just didn't believe enough.
I’m laughing a little, I always love your responses. As you know it’s the message in the quote. If we are going to take everything this literally why say or do anything at all? Wedding vows- we can completely throw those out the window lol. However I, for one, CANNOT STAND the Live Laugh Love kitsch or pretty much any time someone posts motivational quotes. Mostly because it seems like those people live entirely the opposite of those sayings. Like they’re walking advertisements for how they want you to think of them. That’s why I don’t have Facebook or IG though.
As for easy things I say to myself to keep me accountable for my actions, this I actually do. I have a lot of self talk going on here though, you have no idea 😆.
Agreed. I don't think you're wrong necessarily. The problem is, people do take them literally. That's why there's a whole manifesting movement. Yes, believing in your ability to try and potentially achieve (reasonable) things is great. It's what keeps us going. But, if I'm 40, living in my Mom's basement still.... well, maybe it's time to move on from that dream of being a famous writer.1 -
paperpudding wrote: »Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.
it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.
Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.
That’s why I said there’s 2 parts to the equation. You can’t just think about it, you also have to do everything you can to make it happen. Maybe you could have been a world soccer champion if you invested and practiced since you were a kid, who knows.
When it comes to illness, your attitude effects how much you’ll invest in one’s treatment. If you don’t think you’ll get better so don’t get help, you likely won’t get better. If you believe you can get better and seek treatment, there’s a chance you can get better. This is the positive message that should be embraced. I like the simplicity of it, that’s why messages like this are especially great for kids. Just like, “You can do anything you put your mind to”. When kids believe they can, they’ll likely try far more for much longer than if they think they can’t. This can impact their entire life for the rest of their life. So, although you find it trite, it can be incredibly impactful. And you don’t just “not try” because “what if it doesn’t work”. I get asked that by the 2 Little’s I have in Big Brothers Big Sisters. They already want to give up before trying, and because of their circumstances I understand why. It’s my hope to replenish their self belief and confidence, and this quote gets the point across fairly easily.
To the bolded: I think it's not that simple in real humans. I say that from personal experience, from experience with multiple family members with terminal illnesses, and from having listened to many dozens of breast cancer survivors in a support group where I was active for around 20 years until it disbanded during the pandemic.
To be clear, the part I'm disputing is the implication that if something doesn't think they can get better, they won't get help. IME, often, despite despair, they will get help, follow a course of treatment . . . and some do get better.
It's exceedingly common at diagnosis and for a while after to feel doomed. When diagnosed at stage III, I wondered if I should even renew my magazine subscriptions. Trivial as that is, it's indicative of state of mind. My mother had died a few years before from an earlier stage of the cancer I had, and my husband had died quite recently from different cancer. I felt no assurance of success, but still felt an obligation to try that I can't honestly call hope. Duty, maybe.
Possibly you've been through something similar, and felt differently. Still, for myself, and for many others who've poured out their hearts in my presence, thinking you can't get better doesn't mean disengaging from treatment. I don't have a great logical explanation for that, but that's what I've experienced.
Still, as I said before, if someone truly doesn't seek treatment because they think it can't work, that's probably going to lead to a worse outcome, of course. But belief that treatment can work isn't the only thing that motivates people to invest effort into getting treatment and sticking it out.sollyn23l2 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.
it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.
Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.
What's worse, it basically blames anyone who is unable to do something. Didn't beat cancer? Well, you just didn't BELIEVE hard enough. Didn't become an NFL quarterback? Come on, you just didn't believe hard enough, that's your fault. Didn't become a professional concert pianist? You, my friend, just didn't believe enough.
I’m laughing a little, I always love your responses. As you know it’s the message in the quote. If we are going to take everything this literally why say or do anything at all? Wedding vows- we can completely throw those out the window lol. However I, for one, CANNOT STAND the Live Laugh Love kitsch or pretty much any time someone posts motivational quotes. Mostly because it seems like those people live entirely the opposite of those sayings. Like they’re walking advertisements for how they want you to think of them. That’s why I don’t have Facebook or IG though.
As for easy things I say to myself to keep me accountable for my actions, this I actually do. I have a lot of self talk going on here though, you have no idea 😆.
Quite honestly, I did take my wedding vows seriously and literally. We revised the standard language (only slightly) to be what we thought was realistic, and I considered myself bound by what I'd said. I'm not saying I was always perfect - the vows are IMO aspirational - but I strove to live by what I'd promised. I'm not saying I would never have divorced, either . . . the other party breaking the vows might be a basis.
I'm not criticizing you here: I just think we see the world very differently, interpret the quotes and language differently. People thinking differently is part of what makes life interesting, sincerely.
4 -
when and where did Ford say that-- to his friend on his deathbed or in a high school graduation inspirational speech. Context.0
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paperpudding wrote: »Hmmmm, motivating yourself and then taking action to achieve it is good - but I don't agree with Henry Fords quote.
It almost comes under meaningless and trite quotes for me.
it doesnt matter how much I think I can become a world soccer champion, reality is I can't.
Or, getting back to previous health factors - no matter how much I think I can beat my terminal illness (or stay positive, in upthread lingo) - reality might be I cant.
That’s why I said there’s 2 parts to the equation. You can’t just think about it, you also have to do everything you can to make it happen. Maybe you could have been a world soccer champion if you invested and practiced since you were a kid, who knows.
When it comes to illness, your attitude effects how much you’ll invest in one’s treatment. If you don’t think you’ll get better so don’t get help, you likely won’t get better. If you believe you can get better and seek treatment, there’s a chance you can get better. This is the positive message that should be embraced. I like the simplicity of it, that’s why messages like this are especially great for kids. Just like, “You can do anything you put your mind to”. When kids believe they can, they’ll likely try far more for much longer than if they think they can’t. This can impact their entire life for the rest of their life. So, although you find it trite, it can be incredibly impactful. And you don’t just “not try” because “what if it doesn’t work”. I get asked that by the 2 Little’s I have in Big Brothers Big Sisters. They already want to give up before trying, and because of their circumstances I understand why. It’s my hope to replenish their self belief and confidence, and this quote gets the point across fairly easily.
I dont agree with that - my point in fact was that no matter how much I beleive and put in effort (nobody is saying things will just be achieved without effort) everything is not acheivable just by believing it is, even with maximum effort at it.
"If you believe you can get better and seek treatment, there’s a chance you can get better" - no, sometimes there isnt.
No matter how much positive thinking and treatment you do, sometimes there really isnt or it really doesnt work out that way.
Obviously if ones actions are different - ( ie seeking treatment or not, practicing a skill or not) ) that will affect outcomes - but that isnt the same as thinking believing you will get better/ be a champion/earn a million dollars , even with maximum effort, means you will or vice versa.
One thing about goals is they must be acheivable and realistic - this if you believe you can do/be anything , -is a recipe for disappointment and regrets IMO
even your sentence to me - "maybe you could of been a world soccer star if your practiced as a kid, who knows" - no, I would not have been regardless of how much practice because for most people of average ability ( or really anything less than outstanding ability) and opportunity that is an unrealistic goal.
re another point - not sure what part of wedding vows are not meant to be taken literally? - I certainly took mine literally.
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