Open discussion on the minds ability to influence the physical body......
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Corina1143 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »
Like people with similar degenerative conditions, say, muscular dystrophy or motor neurone disease or Huntingtons disease - absolutely no amount of positive thinking or compliance with treatment or believing anything will change the outcome.
But don't you hope that someone, somewhere is saying, "Of course there's a cure! And we will find it. Let's get to work."
of course - but that doesnt change what I said before.2 -
collinsje1 wrote: »Seems like whether it would be better or not is going to depend on how ticked off and upset they might be after a long span of believing, working hard, then utterly failing. Also, if I correctly judged that I'd fail at something, why would I waste my time striving after it? That would be pretty dumb, IMO.
Fundamentally, I think we're arguing in cartoon-simplistic terms here. In a practical sense, some things are so improbable that believing one can do them is misplaced, even delusional. Other things are really really unlikely, but possible, and how much effort to invest is a question of how possible, and how important to the person involved. In actual specific cases, quite a range of people will be able to sort out where a particular thing falls. (Some won't, and may benefit from pep talks or other remedial tactics).
If we simply talk in the abstract, in generalities - not about a particular type of goal for a particular sort of person - the discussion is going nowhere but around and around. As a 67-year-old woman with bad knees, I'm not going to win the Olympic gold medal in marathon, and it would be pretty stupid for me to believe in myself and dedicate most of my time to it, y'know? OTOH, if the goal was to age-group medal in some non-knee stressful sport in a local or regional competition, that's maybe worth pursuing, even if it's a stretch.
I agree with what is bolded above we are essitually disscussing this in very simplistic generalitys. And no I am not so simplistic in that say " If i really belive I am capable of playing quarterback in the NFL" it would just come true. It wouldnt because A...im about a coordinated as a moose on ice skates, and B way to injury prone. I just thought this would be an interesting conversation.cmriverside wrote: »“You can do anything you put your mind to”. When kids believe they can, they’ll likely try far more for much longer than if they think they can’t. This can impact their entire life for the rest of their life. So, although you find it trite, it can be incredibly impactful. And you don’t just “not try” because “what if it doesn’t work”. I get asked that by the 2 Little’s I have in Big Brothers Big Sisters. They already want to give up before trying, and because of their circumstances I understand why. It’s my hope to replenish their self belief and confidence, and this quote gets the point across fairly easily.
I did not read every post after this, because this one trite saying is one of my very biggest complaints about "childhood sayings."
I seriously dislike the “You can do anything you put your mind to” saying.
No. No you cannot. I knew this and argued against this even as a six year old. That's why the kids in the Big Brothers are chaffing. No, I cannot be a fashion model. No, I cannot be president (most likely.) No, I probably won't be an Oscar winning actor. I may or may not become quarterback or invent something that changes the world.
I could maybe buy a car, a house and have a couple kids, a dog and a two week vacation in the Bahamas...someday. That's a reasonable goal in America.
Kids are freakin' smart. They call you on your BS. I knew the whole "Secret" and "Manifesting" and “You can do anything you put your mind to” was and is BS.
/rant
...this thing causes women (and men) to stay in abusive relationships believing they can "make" the other person behave nicely with enough kindness and love. That they can manifest a healthy marriage or family. No. No you can't. You also can't "make" someone love you back who isn't capable, but this saying causes some people to lose decades in no-win relationships and jobs.
"Cut your losses," is a good one.
However, I'm sorry but the saying "you can do anything you put your mind to" or "you can be anything you want to be when you grow up" is something I will never quit telling my now six-year-old. Just last week he said to me " daddy can I be an astronaut when I get big", now I know logically that, that is probably not going to happen, but I'm not going to discourage him by telling him "Probably not". In my opinion kids have to be able to dream and wish and hope. Otherwise, kid lose that young innocence way too soon. And to not believe that you can do/be anything you want to at 6 years old is well...frankly sad.
Personally, maybe I'd go with something more like "That's a great goal! Only a few people become astronauts, so you'd have to work really hard to do it. But I know that you're capable of hard work, so if that's what you want, and you do that work, it's something you can accomplish." Maybe that's too much for age 6, but soon . . . .
In general, child development research seems to suggest that kids do better when praised for effort than for traits or outcomes. This seems similar to me.6 -
I agree with what is bolded above we are essitually disscussing this in very simplistic generalitys. And no I am not so simplistic in that say " If i really belive I am capable of playing quarterback in the NFL" it would just come true. It wouldnt because A...im about a coordinated as a moose on ice skates, and B way to injury prone. I just thought this would be an interesting conversation.
It is an interesting conversation.
Yes,, that is why ' you can be anything you want' is such a trite and over simplified saying.
Far better IMO to encourage ourselves and others to realistic achievable and desirable goals- and if you get there and you want to reach further you set your next goal then. Incrementally, as was mentioned upthread
And it's OK not to reach your goal and to reassess it to a 'lower' more achievable one too, not consider that failure and give up.
Putting into real terms - is it realistic for me, a 60 year old healthy woman, to aim to be worlds fastest runner?
Clearly no, that would be totally unrealistic.
Possibly realistic to aim to win local fun run over 40's section if I put in enough effort and training.
Is that effort desirable to me or is the goal important enough to me to put in required time and effort to aim for it?
Honestly, , no it isn't.
My aim was to complete a 5 km fun run and then to complete a 6 km one and then to improve on my own personal best time.
Realistic, achievable and within the limits of what I was prepared to do to achieve it.
Children I would take similar approach
Child wants to be famous ballerina - I wouldn't do the 'you can do anything if you believe' approach, I would encourage them to join an age appropriate dance class, see how much they enjoy it, aim to progress to next level, be part of a concert etc
If you go further,great, if you don't that's ok.
Ie incremental achievable goals with open ended outcomes.
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Thank you for this interesting thread. Considering that being the absolute best in any field, happens to too few people, no matter how hard the vast majority of serious people who truly want to get to the top, work… It involves having political savvy, communication skills, emotional intelligence, marketing skills, good PR, character, maturity it, etc. And a host of other traits, like a “good network”... Look at all the winners of "American Idol" and "The Voice", what percentage of all the winners truly made it, despite having loads of talent? There can only be so many Carrie Underwoods.
I always thought the, "You can be anything was a lie." How many Barbara Walters, Albert Einstein's, Nobel Peace Prize Winners, Howard Sterns, Michael Jordan's, Michael Jackson's, pro-athletes, musicians, quality politicians, actors, musicians, athletes, Bruce Jenner's to get on the “Wheaties box”? Only a few percentages of people, survival of the fittest….
I would never want to discourage a child. Let's face it, a person with the most grit, tenacity, resiliency, and consistency with a list of other factors gets to the top. Sometimes it is luck, but usually it is about your network, more money usually means more opportunities, preparation meets opportunity. How many years did they practice?
All I know for myself, the times I made a concentrated effort to visualize my weight loss results, I lost more weight and my commitment was greater vs. the times I did not visualize. I had a harder time, and I was not as committed or I wasn't as mentally tough and made excuses. I would review it in my head periodically throughout the day. This quality as well as completing the tasks help me get to my weight loss goal.
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To be clear, the part I'm disputing is the implication that if something doesn't think they can get better, they won't get help. IME, often, despite despair, they will get help, follow a course of treatment . . . and some do get better.
I didn’t say if they don’t think they will get better then they won’t get help, so let me clarify.
There’s people that don’t think they’ll get better and do get help. And there’s also people that don’t think they’ll get better and don’t get help. I’m speaking to the latter.
For those that don’t think they’ll get better and don’t get help, likely won’t get better unfortunately. That’s why it’s worth trying. That’s the ENTIRE point of everything I’m saying. Whether you believe it or not, it’s worth trying.1 -
I dont agree with that - my point in fact was that no matter how much I beleive and put in effort (nobody is saying things will just be achieved without effort) everything is not acheivable just by believing it is, even with maximum effort at it.
I didn’t say everything is achievable by just believing it.
re another point - not sure what part of wedding vows are not meant to be taken literally? - I certainly took mine literally.
I meant this mostly as a joke. Think modern women using traditional vows.0 -
But, if I'm 40, living in my Mom's basement still.... well, maybe it's time to move on from that dream of being a famous writer.
Lol, yeah please don’t do that.
The reason some manifestations are realized is because someone not only thought about it but worked hard for it (this is the part I feel is missing from everyone’s manifesting definition). In no way does this mean mooch off your poor mother. Also, I’m not a huge fan of the word manifest but it was the topic I was responding to.0 -
dddsb111, I don't see the working hard for it bit as something anyone has missed..
Quite the reverse - absolutely nobody seemed to me to be saying goals would be achieved without working toward them.
Our point was that even when one does as much hard work as possible, not every goal is acheiveable - and the 'You can be anything if you believe and try hard enough' mantra does say everything is acheivable - therefore IMO it is a silly and trite and false saying2 -
For those that don’t think they’ll get better and don’t get help, likely won’t get better unfortunately. That’s why it’s worth trying. That’s the ENTIRE point of everything I’m saying. Whether you believe it or not, it’s worth trying.
No sometimes it is not.
Sometimes people are better off focusing on quality of life that seeking more and more treatments trying to get better when that is not going to happen and losing quality of the time they have.
Individual decisions in individual circumstances4 -
paperpudding wrote: »No, no, it was just an example, like general 'you' - was not a personal or individual comment and, No, I myself do not have a terminal illness or any illness.
So sorry if my poor wording suggested that, entirely unintentional.
However my mother did really die from PSP, a rare degenerative brain/muscle disorder.
Like people with similar degenerative conditions, say, muscular dystrophy or motor neurone disease or Huntingtons disease - absolutely no amount of positive thinking or compliance with treatment or believing anything will change the outcome.
So glad to know I misunderstood you
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paperpudding wrote: »dddsb111, I don't see the working hard for it bit as something anyone has missed..
Quite the reverse - absolutely nobody seemed to me to be saying goals would be achieved without working toward them.
Our point was that even when one does as much hard work as possible, not every goal is acheiveable - and the 'You can be anything if you believe and try hard enough' mantra does say everything is acheivable - therefore IMO it is a silly and trite and false saying [/b].
No sometimes it is not.
Sometimes people are better off focusing on quality of life that seeking more and more treatments trying to get better when that is not going to happen and losing quality of the time they have.
Individual decisions in individual circumstances
No, you just took my first post out of context and made it about something else. My post was about the meaning of manifesting and how it is both the mental intention and actions (work). I related that quote to manifesting which didn’t imply actions and I said the action part (work) was the missing part in many peoples idea of manifesting.
Here’s where the dots connect:
-Many people think manifesting is something you sit and think about and hope it comes true, with no mention of work or action.
-The quote is something you think about or believe and too makes no mention of work or action.
I then said, what people (who believe in manifesting) are missing is the actions part. I used an example of Jim Carrey using manifestation by writing a check and then he visualized cashing it. But he didn’t mention working his *kitten* off everyday in that same conversation.
You decided to completely focus on the quote and how you don’t agree with it, when my post was never about the quote specifically. I used it because I found a connection to the quote with peoples idea of Manifestation. I don’t have a problem with it either because I don’t take it too literally, which I did mention when my post was derailed.
Basically, I was talking about lemons. You decided I was talking about oranges and you don’t like oranges. I have no intention of arguing about oranges because I don’t have a like or dislike for them. Hey, if you don’t like oranges then don’t. I honestly don’t care if you do.
If you want to discuss lemons though, by all means let me know. I can’t say I have the same tenacity as you do, but I’ll certainly hear you out.1 -
arguing?
thought it was a civil discussion myself.
My posts are not responding just to you or what you posted but to anyone/everyone reading.
I dont think the thread has been derailed - it still seems about OP's topic to me - but perhaps it just isnt going the way you would like 3 -
paperpudding wrote: »arguing?
thought it was a civil discussion myself.
My posts are not responding just to you or what you posted but to anyone/everyone reading.
I dont think the thread has been derailed - it still seems about OP's topic to me - but perhaps it just isnt going the way you would like
You changed the meaning of my comment and then make an assumption about how I feel to be snarky lol. Mom, is that you? 😆2 -
I think maybe it's time to let this thread die... it seems like we've heard the different points of view.3
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No, not trying to be snarky, sorry you took it that way.
yes, I agree Sollyn -that's it from me anyway, unless anyone else has anything new to add.
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Well, I'll add just a couple things..not in the vein of "dream it, work hard, get it" because ... no.
@AnnPT77 wrote the phrase "inappropriate positivity" a few pages back, and it reminded me of something that might be connected. Having recently suffered a devastating loss, I read up on grieving and mourning and how they're different. I also read to avoid people who would minimize the loss; folks who minimize your loss aren't good for you to be around when your emotions are raw and fresh.
In my opinion, minimizing loss and tossing around inappropriate positivity via cliches or maxims both equal a kind of dismissal.
The other thing: I've been thinking about the whole "menopause and weight gain" subject that pops up in these boards all the time. It seems there's a connection between prevailing (wrong) world-wisdom: "You've reached the age of menopause, now the fat deposits will settle in your midsection." I think this can have a very real physical effect on women without them even trying to think about it too much... they accept it as a foregone conclusion, and the weight gain happens. Definite mind/body fulfillment, or something close to it.
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I know I can reduce mild pain signals in my body if I focus on it. Having sciatica, there are times I can feel it pulse down my leg, but if I concentrate on NOT feeling it, the pulses go away. I'm also good at focusing on warming up parts of my body. Many times I've felt cold, I would sit and focus on warming say my chest area and later can touch it (others have too) and it's significantly warmer after a few minutes.
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vivmom2014 wrote: »Well, I'll add just a couple things..not in the vein of "dream it, work hard, get it" because ... no.
@AnnPT77 wrote the phrase "inappropriate positivity" a few pages back, and it reminded me of something that might be connected. Having recently suffered a devastating loss, I read up on grieving and mourning and how they're different. I also read to avoid people who would minimize the loss; folks who minimize your loss aren't good for you to be around when your emotions are raw and fresh.
In my opinion, minimizing loss and tossing around inappropriate positivity via cliches or maxims both equal a kind of dismissal.
[snip for focus]
@vivmom2014 speaking of grieving, there's a free online Workshop tonight from the Kripalu Center for Yoga and Health. The main presenter is not right on point, but last year the other presenter, Reggie Hubbard, did a Day of the Dead workshop that was helpful for me with my own grief, so I am attending this one. There was absolutely no minimizing of loss by Reggie last year or ever. (I attend all his workshops.)
Reggie says, "I am merging my Dia de Los Muertos practice with Michael's Death Over Dinner program to create healing community to normalize discussions about death, grief and loss."
https://kripalu.org/presenters-programs/death-over-dinner
Join founder of the international movement Death Over Dinner, Michael Hebb, and internationally recognized yoga and meditation teacher, Reggie Hubbard, for an evening of deep connection. Come gather around the table to discuss your personal relationship to mortality.
During this one-of-a-kind online experience, you will:- Learn about how facing end-of-life can give us more vitality.
- Gain the inspiration to create a comprehensive end of life plan.
- Reframe your relationship to grief.
Find out why millions of people around the world have found peace of mind and deeper clarity by turning toward this sometimes difficult conversation. This is an experience that will leave you feeling uplifted and filled with life.1 -
But, if I'm 40, living in my Mom's basement still.... well, maybe it's time to move on from that dream of being a famous writer.
Lol, yeah please don’t do that.
The reason some manifestations are realized is because someone not only thought about it but worked hard for it (this is the part I feel is missing from everyone’s manifesting definition). In no way does this mean mooch off your poor mother. Also, I’m not a huge fan of the word manifest but it was the topic I was responding to.
I don't think the "work hard" part is being missed. All of this needs to be be tempered by certain realities, the mind and hard work can't overcome everything...IMO, it's fairly limited. Manifestation and hard work aren't going to make someone an elite pro athlete (as an example) without inate athletic ability among other things that is far and away above their peers. One cannot manifest becoming an astronaut and realize that simply by hard work. They would need an inate intellectual aptitude as well as inate physical characteristics. Not everyone can do anything they put their minds to because certain people have inate abilities and/or characteristics that go well beyond anything working hard can achieve.
For as long as I can remember, both of my boys have wanted to be soccer stars and play Premiere League or play for Team USA in the World Cup. I never told them that they couldn't, nor did I ever tell them that if they work hard enough they could. We simply enrolled them in soccer and they've been playing since age 3 (youngest) and 5 (oldest). When they became old enough they wanted to try out for competitive club and that was there first real look at actual competition to make a team and their first realization that there were boys there same age who were incredibly athletically gifted, well beyond just putting in the work.
They're 11 and 13 now. They are both really good athletes but not great athletes and both have realized that they don't have the inate athleticism of an elite, professional athlete. They still play club and both boys also play for their school and have adopted more reasonable and attainable goals where soccer is concerned. My oldest is in 8th grade and his goal for this season was to make the high school varsity team...he didn't do that (was pretty improbable for 8th grade), but he did make the high school JV team rather than returning to the middle school team. My youngest plays for the middle school team and they both talk about how in a few years they will be re-united on the varsity team and how they will dominate together (not completely unreasonable given their skill and their division). It wouldn't even be terribly shocking to me if they played at the collegiate level, but they both realize playing English Premiere or playing in the World Cup isn't realistic and is on an entirely different level and have since shifted their thoughts on what they want to do when they are grown. Oldest is interested in sports medicine and being an athletic trainer for MLS soccer or some other sport and the youngest is interested in aeronautical engineering (like his granddad)...both of which they have an inate aptitude for.9 -
I've been thinking this over.
Probably it's just me, but inspirational aphorisms don't really work for me. More often, hearing them makes me want to rebel against them. (That's probably a character fault.
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I tend to believe that my behavior can lead and shape my attitude, more than I believe the reverse. Attitude without behavior is mostly wishful thinking, for me. Don't get me wrong: Starting from behavior can still IMO involve the mind leading the body. There has to be a decision to change behavior, a commitment - that's 100% the mind. (This may be a viewpoint - or trait? - that others don't share; believing this myself isn't an express or implied criticism of anyone with different views or practices.)
Despite not being about inspirational quotes, I do have one on my MFP profile page: "Act as if". If I'd like to be at a different weight, what would my life look like? Do that. If I'd like to be fitter, what would my life look like? Do that. Doing will lead somewhere, somewhere positive if it's sensible doing. I can work hard if it's an important trajectory for me, and be open-minded about how far it can go.
Yeah, there will be uneven and possibly incompetent first steps . . . but if I commit to the behavior change, I'm more likely to read/research, learn more, try different things, improve both tactics and adherence.
That's the "incremental progress" model I mentioned early, the idea that surprisingly good outcomes can come from a small starting goal that gets revised with learning, time and progress. Personally, I don't need to believe I can reach some specific dramatic end point.
I like the focus on action. I also like a quote (song) from a movie that some others will recognize: "Don't dream it, be it."
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