How to reach from 20% to 12% BF while I don’t have a lot of muscle mass
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To be honest, for 10 years of "on and off training" (and I don't know what that is) you don't really appear to have much muscle except for your arms. I would ditch the bro split with all the isolation exercises (that generally emphasize the arms) these typically contain and get on a program with heavy (for you) compound lifts, i.e, squats, deadlifts, rows, pull-ups, bench/shoulder presses and loaded carries, maybe some sled work. The bro split isn't working.
Eat a couple hundred calories over maintenance, emphasizing lean proteins, veggies and fruit. Do this for about 6 months and reassess. You should have a fair bit more muscle to work with and from there you can determine what direction you want to go.
Good luck.2 -
Actually in terms of nutrition the op did state he eats up to 5 meals so he does appear to split his intake through the day ... so probably another non issue.
Seems that the "only remaining" issues are the leanness of the bulk... and the program and then the OP will be rocking!1 -
neanderthin wrote: »What's your diet look like? How much protein , from which sources, total calories, how many meals etc. What goals have you or do you set for progressive overload and what milestones have you achieved over the last 2 years? Some people never achieve a 6 pack while still appearing rather athletic. It appears you've been more concerned with getting to a lower body fat than muscle building, but I may be wrong.
Thanks a lot for your response, I have a balanced diet of protein 158g, carbs135g and fat 70g
I eat around 4-5 meals, I don't have like a clear besides my weight and BF, but over all I feel I am getting stronger in some areas.
You're right, I am more concern about getting to a lower body fat (around 15%) I wish my abs to be visible but doesn't have to be freaking shredded much
Yeah, to be honest you appear to have not committed one way or the other. Consume your protein equally throughout your meal timing of at least 3 meals and for optimal muscle protein synthesis you want a minimum of 30g's and up to 50g's depending on the individual of quality protein per meal with about 3-5 g's of leucine and adding protein post workout isn't a bad thing either. When I was training to aggressively build muscle I generally did 15 to 20 sets per muscle group per week. Eat at maintenance, lift for progressive overload and when you stop progressing add a few hundred calories and continue. This is my basic advice since I consider muscle mass to be the better facilitator for fat loss going fwd.0 -
I can’t say I have been committed the last 10 years but at least the last couple of years i was but the majority of the time I spent it on cutting.
My meals looks something like this:
1- oats, with nuts and dates and chia seeds
2-Protein shake with banana, nuts and some oats
3-chicken/meat with rice and veggies
4- 4 whole eggs 2 slices of bread and veggies
5- sometimes cottage cheese and sometimes I skip this one
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Retroguy2000 wrote: ».
Do you mind going into detail on your lifting program? How many days, what exercises, sets and reps?
That’s an example of the full body day, I have also should, back with biceps and back with triceps and legs day, I can post them also but they are pretty similar to the number of sets and intensity of the full body workout
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »To be honest, for 10 years of "on and off training" (and I don't know what that is) you don't really appear to have much muscle except for your arms. I would ditch the bro split with all the isolation exercises (that generally emphasize the arms) these typically contain and get on a program with heavy (for you) compound lifts, i.e, squats, deadlifts, rows, pull-ups, bench/shoulder presses and loaded carries, maybe some sled work. The bro split isn't working.
Eat a couple hundred calories over maintenance, emphasizing lean proteins, veggies and fruit. Do this for about 6 months and reassess. You should have a fair bit more muscle to work with and from there you can determine what direction you want to go.
Good luck.
How many kg I should expect per month considering my age 40y hight 172 and weight 68kg? I want to know so in case I gain more it means I guess I should eat a bit less and if I don’t gain then I should add a couple of hundreds calories?
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »To be honest, for 10 years of "on and off training" (and I don't know what that is) you don't really appear to have much muscle except for your arms. I would ditch the bro split with all the isolation exercises (that generally emphasize the arms) these typically contain and get on a program with heavy (for you) compound lifts, i.e, squats, deadlifts, rows, pull-ups, bench/shoulder presses and loaded carries, maybe some sled work. The bro split isn't working.
Eat a couple hundred calories over maintenance, emphasizing lean proteins, veggies and fruit. Do this for about 6 months and reassess. You should have a fair bit more muscle to work with and from there you can determine what direction you want to go.
Good luck.
How many kg I should expect per month considering my age 40y hight 172 and weight 68kg? I want to know so in case I gain more it means I guess I should eat a bit less and if I don’t gain then I should add a couple of hundreds calories?
It takes about 3500 excess calories to gain a pound. So if you add 200 calories a day for 30 days you should see about a kg in a month.1 -
That's a good upper body (plus deadlift) workout. As a nitpick, I'd choose cable fly's instead of db fly's. Much better tension curve. And I'd do shoulder lateral raises instead of rear delt fly's, since the former isn't getting much work and the latter already got work with the wide grip rows.Retroguy2000 wrote: ».
Do you mind going into detail on your lifting program? How many days, what exercises, sets and reps?
That’s an example of the full body day, I have also should, back with biceps and back with triceps and legs day, I can post them also but they are pretty similar to the number of sets and intensity of the full body workout
Assuming you're going to near failure (1-2 reps in reserve) on most sets and maybe to failure on the final set, then I see three main issues:
First, as I said the bro-split has been shown to be sub-optimal. More frequency is better. For example you have chest there, and then it sounds like you don't touch chest again for a week even though it's ready to be worked again two to three days later.
Second, total weekly volume. As a non-newbie lifter, your weekly volume target should be about 15 sets per part. It reads like you're doing just 6 sets of chest and that will be very minimal growth.
Third, you mention you've been cutting for a couple of years. That is of course sub-optimal for muscle growth. It's not impossible, but it's far from ideal. You should know what your maintenance is. Go a couple hundred calories above that.
To sum up, increase your calories and dump the bro-split. If you're going to the gym four times then something like Chest+Back, Lower+Shoulder Press+Arms, Chest+Back, Lower+Shoulder Press+Arms. If you're going three times, then three full body workouts with 5 working sets each of squats (or deadlift once per week), chest, back, shoulders and something for harms like seated leg curl if you did deadlift, or RDL if you didn't. Same applies with U/L/U/L, do deadlift on one of those L days, otherwise squats.1 -
I'll ask a different question: how much time have you spent at maintenance, how much time gaining, and how much time losing weight over the past 10 years? Do you have a previous history of being significantly overweight?
First of all: use a weight trend app. It de-emphasizes immediate weight aberrations while still capturing longer term trends and inflection points. Why use one?
Because if you can clearly see your weight changing on a daily basis you are going too fast! If your weight change is "lost in the noise" of normal fluctuations then you are going slowly.
Maybe people can comment on that and have different opinions; but I see the food as a support that enable optimal growth. Not as a goal to stuff you into a bigger size as soon as possible.
And just enough food to be on the plus side of maintenance does provides that support without encouraging extra fat accumulation beyond the necessary.
Even the "couple of hundred cals" a day = about a kg a month that are advocated, i.e. a pace of 2lbs a month is difficult to see through the normal everyday fluctuations.
But how much time will 1kg a month (the 200 Cal a day) give you at a mostly anabolic state before you are starting to think about reducing weight again? 4 months? 6 months? Is that enough time?
So I would advocate for even slower... aiming for ~150 Cal overage long term... bringing you up by only 1 to 1.5lbs a month i.e. coming up in the 0.5kg to 0.75kg per month range.
Giving you more time to build while at the + side of the caloric equation, even if it is a really small plus0 -
I'll ask a different question: how much time have you spent at maintenance, how much time gaining, and how much time losing weight over the past 10 years? Do you have a previous history of being significantly overweight?
First of all: use a weight trend app. It de-emphasizes immediate weight aberrations while still capturing longer term trends and inflection points. Why use one?
Because if you can clearly see your weight changing on a daily basis you are going too fast! If your weight change is "lost in the noise" of normal fluctuations then you are going slowly.
Maybe people can comment on that and have different opinions; but I see the food as a support that enable optimal growth. Not as a goal to stuff you into a bigger size as soon as possible.
And just enough food to be on the plus side of maintenance does provides that support without encouraging extra fat accumulation beyond the necessary.
Even the "couple of hundred cals" a day = about a kg a month that are advocated, i.e. a pace of 2lbs a month is difficult to see through the normal everyday fluctuations.
But how much time will 1kg a month (the 200 Cal a day) give you at a mostly anabolic state before you are starting to think about reducing weight again? 4 months? 6 months? Is that enough time?
So I would advocate for even slower... aiming for ~150 Cal overage long term... bringing you up by only 1 to 1.5lbs a month i.e. coming up in the 0.5kg to 0.75kg per month range.
Giving you more time to build while at the + side of the caloric equation, even if it is a really small plus
If you like 150 extra calories a day vs 200 that's fine, but to me it's majoring in the minors. Remember in the US (believe the poster is non-US) calorie labels can vary +/- 20% of actual calories so 150 vs 200 is not material.
My point would be, keep calories the same or slightly increase. Eat mostly clean foods, which the poster claims to be doing, and actually work out. Based on his comments, I'm not sure if he has actually worked out on a regular basis for an appreciable period of time.
I would suggest eating as I mentioned above, get a program where major muscle groups are targeted at least twice a week (3 would be fine) emphasizing compound movements. Workout on a REGULAR basis, i.e., missing a training session should be rare. Come back in 6 months and reassess.
Good luck.
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Retroguy2000 wrote: ». Your bf % is far lower than you think, like I said earlier I'd guess much closer to 15% than 20%. You're in a great spot for maingaining.
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I am sorry but I thought the OP picture maybe was not showing the BF% and muscle mass properly, here is a couple more if you don’t mind tell me if you still think I am around 15%?
Also I heard it’s better to start bulking from 12%-15%bf what do you think about this?
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You asked for advice, and the response from multiple experienced people has been consistent:
- Small calorie surplus.
- Change your lifting program. See my earlier post for more details.
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I think you look great, but I know it doesn’t matter what I think. Here’s an outsiders perspective from another angle.
You look thin/lean, especially with more tailored clothes on I’m sure. You’re at a crossroads and these are your choices-
1. You can continue to lose weight, start looking skinny, shorter, less strong, and your clothes will make you look more underdeveloped. You may also start to look either younger, because of your low weight, or older because of a thinning face. You’ll also be weaker, and if you wanted to change it, you’ll have to increase your calories to gain weight, which means gaining some fat, but now you’ll have even less muscle than before.
2. You can maintain, not gain weight or lose weight, and be stuck with this aesthetic, which isn’t bad, but it’s as good as it will get pretty much.
3. Or, you can eat at a slight surplus, throw your old training routine in the trash, and get serious about a new lifestyle, which consists of tighter macros/calories and more aggressive training to get you to the next level of fitness. You will likely taper, and get that coveted V- with broad shoulders, a smaller core, potentially some ab definition, more defined leg muscles, everything you say you want. But, it takes work and a break from your old ways.
So, which one do you want? There’s no wrong answer. Like I said, you look great, and you’re at an excellent place to stop or turn the page to the next chapter. I hope you let us know what you decide and keep us posted.4 -
Retroguy2000 wrote: »You asked for advice, and the response from multiple experienced people has been consistent:
- Small calorie surplus.
- Change your lifting program. See my earlier post for more details.
Thanks I appreciate it
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I think you look great, but I know it doesn’t matter what I think. Here’s an outsiders perspective from another angle.
You look thin/lean, especially with more tailored clothes on I’m sure. You’re at a crossroads and these are your choices-
1. You can continue to lose weight, start looking skinny, shorter, less strong, and your clothes will make you look more underdeveloped. You may also start to look either younger, because of your low weight, or older because of a thinning face. You’ll also be weaker, and if you wanted to change it, you’ll have to increase your calories to gain weight, which means gaining some fat, but now you’ll have even less muscle than before.
2. You can maintain, not gain weight or lose weight, and be stuck with this aesthetic, which isn’t bad, but it’s as good as it will get pretty much.
3. Or, you can eat at a slight surplus, throw your old training routine in the trash, and get serious about a new lifestyle, which consists of tighter macros/calories and more aggressive training to get you to the next level of fitness. You will likely taper, and get that coveted V- with broad shoulders, a smaller core, potentially some ab definition, more defined leg muscles, everything you say you want. But, it takes work and a break from your old ways.
So, which one do you want? There’s no wrong answer. Like I said, you look great, and you’re at an excellent place to stop or turn the page to the next chapter. I hope you let us know what you decide and keep us posted.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I've decided to opt for option number 3 to aim for a slight surplus. However, I have a couple of questions regarding this:
1- If I'm aiming to add 400 calories initially, can I derive these calories from sources like rice for carbs and nuts for healthy fats, considering I'm already consuming sufficient protein (around 158g)?
2- as some above suggested that I should gain around 1kg per month, when should I assess whether to adjust my calorie intake based on my weight? Should I consider reducing calories if I find I've gained more than 250g in a week, or should I increase them slightly if I'm not meeting that 250g target? specially for the first month as I understand body can stored more glycogen after cutting phase and it can be confusing for me
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That's good to hear.Thank you for your thoughtful response. I've decided to opt for option number 3 to aim for a slight surplus. However, I have a couple of questions regarding this:
1- If I'm aiming to add 400 calories initially, can I derive these calories from sources like rice for carbs and nuts for healthy fats, considering I'm already consuming sufficient protein (around 158g)?
2- as some above suggested that I should gain around 1kg per month, when should I assess whether to adjust my calorie intake based on my weight? Should I consider reducing calories if I find I've gained more than 250g in a week, or should I increase them slightly if I'm not meeting that 250g target? specially for the first month as I understand body can stored more glycogen after cutting phase and it can be confusing for me
Since you're so worried about body fat, I'd suggest +200 above maintenance. That's sufficient for good muscle growth without adding much fat. If you think your maintenance is 2200 say, and you should have a good idea of this based on recent weight change compared to your current calorie intake, then go to 2400.
Don't adjust this in the future by weight change. Adjust by fat change. Your waist is a simple method. If your belt size is going up or pants feeling tighter, lower the calorie surplus back to maintenance for a while, or do a proper multi-week cutting phase. If your belt size is the same or you're having to go in a notch, who cares whether you gained 1kg or 2kg or whatever? Things are clearly going in the right direction!
If you have training questions, feel free to ask. I highly recommend these two channels. RP for the science talk about hypertrophy, splits, volume, etc., and Jonni Shreve for the form guides.
https://www.youtube.com/@RenaissancePeriodization
https://www.youtube.com/@JonniShreve
P.S. No, your source of increased calories doesn't really matter, especially if it doesn't trigger bad eating habits.2 -
I think you look great, but I know it doesn’t matter what I think. Here’s an outsiders perspective from another angle.
You look thin/lean, especially with more tailored clothes on I’m sure. You’re at a crossroads and these are your choices-
1. You can continue to lose weight, start looking skinny, shorter, less strong, and your clothes will make you look more underdeveloped. You may also start to look either younger, because of your low weight, or older because of a thinning face. You’ll also be weaker, and if you wanted to change it, you’ll have to increase your calories to gain weight, which means gaining some fat, but now you’ll have even less muscle than before.
2. You can maintain, not gain weight or lose weight, and be stuck with this aesthetic, which isn’t bad, but it’s as good as it will get pretty much.
3. Or, you can eat at a slight surplus, throw your old training routine in the trash, and get serious about a new lifestyle, which consists of tighter macros/calories and more aggressive training to get you to the next level of fitness. You will likely taper, and get that coveted V- with broad shoulders, a smaller core, potentially some ab definition, more defined leg muscles, everything you say you want. But, it takes work and a break from your old ways.
So, which one do you want? There’s no wrong answer. Like I said, you look great, and you’re at an excellent place to stop or turn the page to the next chapter. I hope you let us know what you decide and keep us posted.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I've decided to opt for option number 3 to aim for a slight surplus. However, I have a couple of questions regarding this:
1- If I'm aiming to add 400 calories initially, can I derive these calories from sources like rice for carbs and nuts for healthy fats, considering I'm already consuming sufficient protein (around 158g)?
2- as some above suggested that I should gain around 1kg per month, when should I assess whether to adjust my calorie intake based on my weight? Should I consider reducing calories if I find I've gained more than 250g in a week, or should I increase them slightly if I'm not meeting that 250g target? specially for the first month as I understand body can stored more glycogen after cutting phase and it can be confusing for me
I wouldn’t increase more than 200 a day. Try that with a new workout routine for about 30 days and see how you feel/look and adjust incrementally from there. Regarding diet and best training programs I’d confer with:
@ninerbuff
@claireychn074
@tomcustombuilder
Or the gentlemen above
Hopefully they can get you started. GL!
3 -
I think you look great, but I know it doesn’t matter what I think. Here’s an outsiders perspective from another angle.
You look thin/lean, especially with more tailored clothes on I’m sure. You’re at a crossroads and these are your choices-
1. You can continue to lose weight, start looking skinny, shorter, less strong, and your clothes will make you look more underdeveloped. You may also start to look either younger, because of your low weight, or older because of a thinning face. You’ll also be weaker, and if you wanted to change it, you’ll have to increase your calories to gain weight, which means gaining some fat, but now you’ll have even less muscle than before.
2. You can maintain, not gain weight or lose weight, and be stuck with this aesthetic, which isn’t bad, but it’s as good as it will get pretty much.
3. Or, you can eat at a slight surplus, throw your old training routine in the trash, and get serious about a new lifestyle, which consists of tighter macros/calories and more aggressive training to get you to the next level of fitness. You will likely taper, and get that coveted V- with broad shoulders, a smaller core, potentially some ab definition, more defined leg muscles, everything you say you want. But, it takes work and a break from your old ways.
So, which one do you want? There’s no wrong answer. Like I said, you look great, and you’re at an excellent place to stop or turn the page to the next chapter. I hope you let us know what you decide and keep us posted.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I've decided to opt for option number 3 to aim for a slight surplus. However, I have a couple of questions regarding this:
1- If I'm aiming to add 400 calories initially, can I derive these calories from sources like rice for carbs and nuts for healthy fats, considering I'm already consuming sufficient protein (around 158g)?
2- as some above suggested that I should gain around 1kg per month, when should I assess whether to adjust my calorie intake based on my weight? Should I consider reducing calories if I find I've gained more than 250g in a week, or should I increase them slightly if I'm not meeting that 250g target? specially for the first month as I understand body can stored more glycogen after cutting phase and it can be confusing for me
Don't add 400 add 200. As long as protein is sufficient add whatever you want macro wise. If you want to keep max gym performance think about upping carbs.
Don't get caught up in gaining X amount of pounds per month, go off of your waist measurement at the navel. If it starts growing too much then cut back on weekly calories. For the majority of people 1" of gain there is about 5-7 lbs of fat gain so respond accordingly.1 -
Just to prepare you for the changes you’ll experience, I highly recommend reading @springlering62 response here:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10912949/weight-gain-and-cellulite#latest1 -
This is funny... err...
don't ADD 400 -- add 200
at least to start
There, I said it too!
"WEIGHT GAIN" is **NOT** your goal!
Your goal is to provide the energy and nutrients needed for optimal muscle growth.
The potentially resultant weight gain weight is a side effect you are managing.
Not the goal itself.
Small modification to @tomcustombuilder mainly because of potential issues many people have with navel level measurements.
Go to the side of your body and follow up straight up from your pelvis to the very tip top of the bone structure there -- it is called the iliac crest. Lift your "paw" and feel along your rib-cage and locate your lowest rib. Now use your finger to measure how much room there is between the two and put a little dot with a marker between the two. repeat on the other side. Get measuring tape and using mirror to make sure the tape is parallel to the ground especially behind your back--they are pesky that way.... breathe normally, not deeply, not shallowly... and at a normal exhale... take a measurement. And then a second... and hopefully they are almost the same
Beyond that... you do remember the weight trend app that was mentioned?
I'll be honest it does not sound like you are 100% accurate with your caloric counts... so... how about simplifying?
Keep all the rest the same... but add a "full of energy" pre-workout drink or snack timed appropriately before your workout to make you more energized and ready to go for it?
And if you need to add more calories later, and if increasing the PRE would be counterproductive, you could combine it with an appropriate POST workout snack...
**Still think you're looking awesome as is, just FYI.0
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