Weight loss : strategies to optimize it
PercivalHackworth
Posts: 1,437 Member
I'll try to simply (I promise) explain how weigh loss works, why a diet is more efficient the first time, and why it then becomes harder through time. We would also see how we could avoid that.
Let's see how weight loss works. Everybody now should be familiar with insulin, an hormon made in the pancreas, playing both anti-catabolic and anabolic role. Everytime you eat, insulin is secreted - more or less (but always) depending on the nutrient. Carbs - which modify the glycemic level mainly higher it's levels. The modification of the glycemic levels are actually the trigger for the insulin release - the released hormon will have an anti-catabolic action on the muscles and an anabolic one on the adipocytes (fat storage) if the meal is in excess.
Diet : first steps
When the glycemic levels are stable, the pancreas is not solicited, so not any insulin goes in the blod. Insulin being an inhibitor to lipolysis, the fact that it's unreleased enables that last. The weight loss starts...
Diet : antagonist mechanisms
Unfortunately, the first "defenses" come in the play. When less levels of insulin are available, the adipocyte's sensibility to the hormon increases. In other words, eating less would be necessary to keep the weight loss efficient.
Stagnation
A time then comes when adipocytes are so insulin-sensitive that the weight stagnates, even with low intakes, or even removing carbs from your diet (we see that in fact both proteins and fat also release insulin). The few amount of insulin is catch by the adipocytes.
This is when the mighty "plateau" comes. Decreasing your intakes is futile, this is a lost battle.
Lucky us, when we eat less, three hormons increase : norepinephrine, epinephrine and the growth hormon. These three lipolytic hormons help in fat burning
Diet : weight increase
But... why do we stagnate if these three hormons are being released ? shouldn't we suppose to constantly burn fat ?
In fact, after some dieting time, the thyroidic hormons and leptin levels crash, making our three hormons inefficient.
when you reach that point, losing weight is quite hard on both psychological and physical areas. Paradoxically, the thyroid will shrink, Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) decreasing, we will likely.... gain weight Even when you eat as your kitten does.
Thyroid being a key, regulating the metabolism, is that last turns to be inefficient, gaining weight will be something unavoidable.
How to avoid that ?
Before going on, I'd like to have your feedbacks. What would be the strategies in order to avoid that stagnation and keep the weight loss constant, and why ?
Let's see how weight loss works. Everybody now should be familiar with insulin, an hormon made in the pancreas, playing both anti-catabolic and anabolic role. Everytime you eat, insulin is secreted - more or less (but always) depending on the nutrient. Carbs - which modify the glycemic level mainly higher it's levels. The modification of the glycemic levels are actually the trigger for the insulin release - the released hormon will have an anti-catabolic action on the muscles and an anabolic one on the adipocytes (fat storage) if the meal is in excess.
Diet : first steps
When the glycemic levels are stable, the pancreas is not solicited, so not any insulin goes in the blod. Insulin being an inhibitor to lipolysis, the fact that it's unreleased enables that last. The weight loss starts...
Diet : antagonist mechanisms
Unfortunately, the first "defenses" come in the play. When less levels of insulin are available, the adipocyte's sensibility to the hormon increases. In other words, eating less would be necessary to keep the weight loss efficient.
Stagnation
A time then comes when adipocytes are so insulin-sensitive that the weight stagnates, even with low intakes, or even removing carbs from your diet (we see that in fact both proteins and fat also release insulin). The few amount of insulin is catch by the adipocytes.
This is when the mighty "plateau" comes. Decreasing your intakes is futile, this is a lost battle.
Lucky us, when we eat less, three hormons increase : norepinephrine, epinephrine and the growth hormon. These three lipolytic hormons help in fat burning
Diet : weight increase
But... why do we stagnate if these three hormons are being released ? shouldn't we suppose to constantly burn fat ?
In fact, after some dieting time, the thyroidic hormons and leptin levels crash, making our three hormons inefficient.
when you reach that point, losing weight is quite hard on both psychological and physical areas. Paradoxically, the thyroid will shrink, Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) decreasing, we will likely.... gain weight Even when you eat as your kitten does.
Thyroid being a key, regulating the metabolism, is that last turns to be inefficient, gaining weight will be something unavoidable.
How to avoid that ?
Before going on, I'd like to have your feedbacks. What would be the strategies in order to avoid that stagnation and keep the weight loss constant, and why ?
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Replies
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eat more?0
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Eating more will increase the size of the thyroid, will lower the sensibility of the adipocytes,while you would gain some weight at first.
But quickly, you'd be back to square one - you'll start to eat less if you want to lose weight :-)0 -
Hmmm I have no idea but I'm reach somewhat of a plateau so I'll be keen to read this.
My guess would be to either eat more for a while to spike things up again,
Or to eat foods which take more energy to digest maybe?
Taking enough zinc and iodine in the diet (eating fish) to ensure the thyroid is healthy and active?
Try a gluten-free diet?
I'm just guessing here...0 -
I am certainly no expert and am learning new things everyday. That said, I think a smaller deficit over a longer period with occaisional eating at maintenence for 2 weeks every 12 weeks has benefits in minimizing the stall of loss. I just read Kreiger's series on Insulin last week and found it very helpful. Basically, he says of you stay in a reasonable deficit, over time, the deficit will outbalance the lipogenic effect of insulin over time. There might be some who understand this well but I don't know if there is anything definitive that's been discovered as to why we stall and what to do about it.
I also think that, for those of us that got overweight, it didn't happen overnight and it's unrealistic to believe it will be corrected overnight.
Link to Krieger Insulin Series http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=3190 -
Pihjin, eating more will be counter-productive in fact, (I detail the answer I made to skywa) remember that our fat cells are now hyper-sensitive. How could we avoid that ?
In fact, Pihjin heres brings a new aspect, the health of the thyroid. (I'd add Selenium that could be found in nuts)
Here is an interesing article :
http://www.womentowomen.com/hypothyroidism/foods-naturalthyroidhealth.aspx
But that is not enought, it supposes your body is performing well, and you are not trying to lose weight (body sees muscle gain and weight loss as agressions. The first one creates bigger muscles, the second one removes part of it :- )0 -
TELL US!!!! :P0
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Or to eat foods which take more energy to digest maybe?
No matter what kind of food you eat, it always releases in a measure insulin . The elements which require energy are in fact proteins (4kal/ gram) - we could make the alimentary bolus more complex (we could add vegies, with our protein) but that wouldn't prevent the insulin from being released (You understand also now that trying to keep a low-carb diet won't lead to anything in our context).
The insulin secretion's intensity is related to the adipocyte's sensibility here, more than the levels of the carbs you eat.
We saw in order to make a weight loss efficient, we should usually eat nothing (fast). But fasting implies a catabolism (since as we saw, insulin is a powerfull muscular anti-catabolic). What is efficient here to lose fat is also important to lose muscle.
You now understand how hard it is to keep your lean mass while you are dieting.
So it should exist a window for eating, losing fat, keeping the lean mass and avoiding adipocytes sensitivity.0 -
remember that our fat cells are now hyper-sensitive. How could we avoid that ?
Tell them to grow up and stop being so sensitive about every little bit of food!
Nah, honestly, I have no idea but I look forward to finding out.
It might sound crazy but maybe eat more non-saturated fats? Nuts and oils etc?
Am I right in thinking we are trying to figure out how to continue to lose weight and not to reach a plateau, yes?
I get a little confused by the science talk!
(I have no idea what any of these words mean: anti-catabolic, anabolic, "anti-catabolic action on the muscles and an anabolic one on the adipocytes" , lipolysis, leptin levels, ...) 0 -
MelissaGrahamInteresting..... to avoid the cycle we have to stop producing insulin and glucose (avoid carbs) and get away from being sugar-burners to become fat burners (more like Primal or Paleo eating styles). At least, this is where my research has currently led me.
Unfortunately no, since while carbs higher insulin level, both proteins and carbs do. While the diet comes, you eat less carbs, you produce less insulin, but since your fat cells a super sensitive, you would still fill the fat cells0 -
remember that our fat cells are now hyper-sensitive. How could we avoid that ?
Tell them to grow up and stop being so sensitive about every little bit of food!
Nah, honestly, I have no idea but I look forward to finding out.
It might sound crazy but maybe eat more non-saturated fats? Nuts and oils etc?
Am I right in thinking we are trying to figure out how to continue to lose weight and not to reach a plateau, yes?
I get a little confused by the science talk!
Sorry , I'm trying to make it simple :d
Yes, we want the perfect protocol here :
- Eat well
- Lose weigh
- Keep our muscles the size and strengh they are (that would suck if hours of training would be lost because of that)
The catabolism is a reaction that breakdown molecule in order to release their energy. The insulin here avoid that - when you eat, the energy is getting from food, not from muscles.(I have no idea what any of these words mean: anti-catabolic, anabolic, "anti-catabolic action on the muscles and an anabolic one on the adipocytes" , lipolysis, leptin levels, ...)
Lipolysis : the fat burn in faction :-) The energy is being released from the adipocytes (fat cells) to the blood : fat burning :smokin:
Leptin is one of the key hormon on the fat loss. Being produced in the fat cells, it regulates fat gain/ fat loss0 -
Sorry , I'm trying to make it simple :d
Yes, we want the perfect protocol here :
- Eat well
- Lose weigh
- Keep our muscles the size and strengh they are (that would suck if hours of training would be lost because of that)
Okay cool thanks...
Hmm so eat well (ie. starvation, a bigger deficient, eating more, avoiding certain types of foods etc. are probably not the answer).
But also lose weight.
My only other guess would be to eat things that increase insulin production maybe? But I don't think that's it either.
We want to de-sensitise our fat storage to make weight loss constant... hmmm...
I know that changing up/varying our exercise program will keep the muscles guessing but I don't think that will do anything about actual fat storage, only muscle building and development...
I have a feeling that if I understood this article I would know:
http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0020/ea0020oc2.4.htm
Something to do with actiavting the melanocortin 2-receptor?0 -
In fact, in order to understand more, we need to look at the leptin.
The leptin is the leader in the weight loss, having effects on the thyroid hormons, epinephrine and norepinephrine. When insulin levels decrease, these two hormons are also affected. Weak leptin levels increase the hunger feeling and a resistance to it.
The metabolic then start to decrease :-)
the body fat regulates the leptin levels in Time. Lean people (for instance me) for a low BF produce less leptin than overweight people, but like insulin, leptin resistance arrives.
While the leptin levels are low, lean and ripped people remain like that, because of the sensivity that they develop to the leptin... it is like the hyper sensivity to the insulin, but rather used for fat burning and not fat storage. Lean people are more sensitive to leptin
Leptin sensivity is something genetic determines, some people don't gain weight (it's a heaven when they are sedentary, a hell when they want to build), for the others, it's an ability that needs work.
Question is : what would increase the leptin levels so we could keep losing weight , and avoid to crash out 3 magic hormons ?
What we want :
- Keep a low adipocyte's sensitivity to insulin
- Keep the 3 hormons top-notch (Growth hormon, Epinephrine, Norepinephrine)
- Keep a healthy thyroid (eat your nuts)
- Stimulate the leptin levels and make our cells sensitive it
What we don't want :
- Avoid fat cells' sensitivity to insulin, if we don't wan't to gain weight
- Crash our thyroid, so it's functions
- Lowering the leptin levels, while that last lowers when the body fat lowers
You have all the elements here, now, we need to figure out a protocol :-)0 -
Hmmm I'm doing some research
(http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/bodyweight/leptin.html
and then: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/255152-overview )
And it's kind of just telling me things I already figured out. The only thing I can think of that is not diet-related that might help increase the amount of leptin in the body would be to have an active sex life! Though I'm not sure it works that way around. I know that healthy levels of leptin will lead to healthy GnRH production... but I'm not sure if an active sex life would encourage the need for further GnRH and thus boost leptin in the body.
Now there's an interesting experiment
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Sorry , I'm trying to make it simple :d
Yes, we want the perfect protocol here :
- Eat well
- Lose weigh
- Keep our muscles the size and strengh they are (that would suck if hours of training would be lost because of that)
Okay cool thanks...
Hmm so eat well (ie. starvation, a bigger deficient, eating more, avoiding certain types of foods etc. are probably not the answer).
But also lose weight.
My only other guess would be to eat things that increase insulin production maybe? But I don't think that's it either.
We want to de-sensitise our fat storage to make weight loss constant... hmmm...
I know that changing up/varying our exercise program will keep the muscles guessing but I don't think that will do anything about actual fat storage, only muscle building and development...
I have a feeling that if I understood this article I would know:
http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0020/ea0020oc2.4.htm
Something to do with actiavting the melanocortin 2-receptor?
The receptor you are referring are the ones used by ...cortisol :-)
But last studies showed that cortisol wasn't that efficient to weight loss...
As for the training, YES, exactly - I'd add omega-3, we are moving on 0 -
Hmmm I'm doing some research
(http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/bodyweight/leptin.html
and then: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/255152-overview )
And it's kind of just telling me things I already figured out. The only thing I can think of that is not diet-related that might help increase the amount of leptin in the body would be to have an active sex life! Though I'm not sure it works that way around. I know that healthy levels of leptin will lead to healthy GnRH production... but I'm not sure if an active sex life would encourage the need for further GnRH and thus boost leptin in the body.
Now there's an interesting experiment
Yes, it could be a part of it also.
In the opposite, people with low body fat have their libido in bad shape (I lost my libido when I started to reach low bodyfat) -
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art34640.asp0 -
Hmmm so really the key is "be healthy and balanced but somehow increase leptin levels and our sensitivity to it".
I read this and really the only one I can think we might be looking for is to sleep more as the melatonin will regulate leptin levels! If we are already eating well then we should have a balance of fruit and fibre already and perhaps that will have helped at the beginning but if we are staring to plateau then something else is needed...
http://www.livestrong.com/article/276188-how-to-raise-leptin-levels/0 -
So maybe if we start to plateau ... we should make sure we are getting enough sleep, and we should exercise more but also be sure to eat back our exercise calories. So overall we are eating more but the exercise balances it out?
Our body temperature will be raised during exercise, our fat cells will shrink and we can eat more healthy food thus boosting the levels of insulin needed... thus boosting leptin levels too???
Am I right in guessing that the answer is not to simply take some form of supplement to help? Because the idea of taking any form of additive is not the body's best way in my opinion, ( and I have no problem with anyone who does take fat burners or whatever but I would rather do it naturally).0 -
Hmmm just found this:
"Leptin levels decrease after short-term fasting (24–72 hours), even when changes in fat mass are not observed.[37]
In the obese patients with obstructive sleep apnea (OSA), Leptin is increased, but decreases after administration of a CPAP.[38][39] In non-obese individuals, however, restful sleep (i.e., 8–12 hours of unbroken sleep) can increase leptin within normal ranges.
Serum levels of Leptin are reduced by sleep deprivation.[40][41] However recent study showed that sleep deprivation was linked with somewhat higher levels of leptin.
Increased by perceived emotional stress.[42]
Decreased by testosterone and increased by estrogen.[43]
Chronically affected by exercise training; it decreases leptin levels.[44]"
So to regulate leptin levels we sleep well and to increase it we have to experience "perceived emotional stress".0 -
bump0
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Yes, that would put us back to square one :-) We could higher the leptin production by sleeping, have intercourses and eating omega-3, but that already means we hit our plateau, something we want to prevent.
The famous "refeed" used by bodybuilders is a strategy used for increasing the leptin levels, but in fact, a day won't change anything.
I'll give you extra informations :
- when we fast (between two meals), the metabolism doesn't slow down (when the fast is lower to 24 hours) rather it slightly increases
http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/6/1511.abstract
- Three days are needed before a real metabolic update (that is also why binging a day doesn't change anything)
The Respiratory Quotient (RQ) could be used in order to determine when you are currently getting your energy from.
0.7 means you are using your fat
1.0 means you are using the glycose. The more you fast, lower the QR is (2 hours after a meal the RQ is about 0.95-0.90n after a night, the RQ goes to 0.8, and after 16 hours of fast (what's I'm doing), the RQ is about 0.7-0.8
so let's see how we could reach our goals :-)0 -
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Okay well speaking of rest I need to sleep but I'll check back in on this thread in the morning - my brain hurts from learning so much! I'll be dreaming of leptin!
My final guess would be to have just two meals a day for a while... that way you have less than a 24hour fast (by having two 12 hour fasts) and over time that would boost your metabolism if I understand correctly?0 -
Yes, it's part of the answer - the fast is something interesting for burning fat. From 16 to 24 hours, this is even the most interesting phase for burning fat (the metabolism higher, the the leptin levels, so the lipolysis :- )
I'd add another information. From 24 to 30 hours of fasting, we observe a metabolic crash. After 30 hours, you won't use the subdermal fat for energy, but the intra-muscular one - after 30 hours, the muscular fibers are starting to be used.0 -
Bump0
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Interesting Info razi. Thanks for the tips.0
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Sure, but feel free to give the ideas you have :-)0
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Bump to refer to later
I am hoping all of this ends up being sumarized into one reply so I don't have to keep going back to figure it all out.....0 -
Bump to refer to later
I am hoping all of this ends up being sumarized into one reply so I don't have to keep going back to figure it all out.....
Me too lol0 -
I gave up reading all of this but you've got some major facts wrong, for example, epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline) are synthesised in the adrenal gland not the thyroid. Plus, their actions as hormones are really in response to stressed situations so unless you're planning on scaring yourself frequently you probably won't be able to control your levels of these. I'm not sure you will be able to come up with a solution to your question on here, a large number of scientists will also be trying to solve it due to the growing obesity epidemic.
Also saw something about the respiratory quotient, not sure when anyone is ever going to be bothered to work their own ratio out?! I've worked it out in the lab a few times for experiments (I'm a medical student) and you can get unreliable results frequently; someone hyperventilating will get a number above 1 which, if taken literally, would mean they were currently 'laying down' fat.
Sorry, just think this thread has a lot of flaws.0 -
Thanks for your answer - I'm myself far from having the knowledge here :-)
Regarding the epinephrine/ norepinephrine stimulations, Don't sport release them ?
The RQ is a way to measure where you are getting your energy from.0
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