Ketone Bodies, the Brain, and Cancer - Low Carb

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  • DB_1106
    DB_1106 Posts: 154 Member
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    the human body looks better when you consume carbohydrates.. muscle glycogen.

    That is up for debate, but that is not what we are really discussing here.

    I am strictly talking about the effects of no carbs and how the brain still processes and works.
  • vim_n_vigor
    vim_n_vigor Posts: 4,089 Member
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    So, let's assume that the low-carb diet is helping people beat cancer (I am not saying it is true or untrue). Different cancers react to different things in the body, some are fueled by hormones, and some do seem to grow much quicker in a high-sugar environment. Again, assuming the diet is really helping those people with advanced cancer, doesn't mean that it is a change I should make to my lifestyle. After all, chemo, radiation and other drugs are helping them too. That doesn't make it right for me right now.

    There are plenty of people who really do need to restrict their carb intake. Again, just because a low-carb diet is essential to someone with PCOS, diabetes, or any number of metabolic issues, doesn't mean that it is right for everyone to switch to a low carb diet.

    I did a lower carb diet several years ago. The fat was melting off of my body. I got pregnant and had to add the carbs back into my diet. I was horribly ill for several months. Does that mean the diet was good or bad for me? No. That doesn't prove one thing either way.

    Low carb isn't going to be sufficient for everyone, high carb isn't going to be sufficient for everyone. Tell me what is working for you, not that you have found the magic, one and only way that people should eat. That one and only way doesn't exist.
  • DB_1106
    DB_1106 Posts: 154 Member
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    Another low carb myth I see flying around all the time is that our brains need carbohydrates to survive.

    It is true that some parts of some brain cells can only burn glucose, but fortunately our bodies can turn protein into glucose through a process known as gluconeogenesis.

    So what is glucose?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose

    Here you go, read away.

    Is it a carbohydrate or not?

    It's the most common carbohydrate.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Another low carb myth I see flying around all the time is that our brains need carbohydrates to survive.

    It is true that some parts of some brain cells can only burn glucose, but fortunately our bodies can turn protein into glucose through a process known as gluconeogenesis.

    So what is glucose?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose

    Here you go, read away.

    Is it a carbohydrate or not?

    It's the most common carbohydrate.

    So you say the brain doesn't need carbs but then say parts of it require carbs to function, so does the brain need carbs or not?
  • monty619
    monty619 Posts: 1,308 Member
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    the human body looks better when you consume carbohydrates.. muscle glycogen.

    That is up for debate, but that is not what we are really discussing here.

    I am strictly talking about the effects of no carbs and how the brain still processes and works.
    yeh the science is there i agree with you i used to low carb.. but if you diet and workout for aesthetics you need the carbohydrates. there is no metabolic advantage when you low carb. the more bodyweight you hold from glycogen the more calories you burn as well.
  • MrsCon40
    MrsCon40 Posts: 2,351 Member
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    the human body looks better when you consume carbohydrates.. muscle glycogen.

    Yes, you wear your glycogen well. :drinker:
  • DB_1106
    DB_1106 Posts: 154 Member
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    Again ACG, I am not playing a gotcha word game with you. You know damn well what I mean, and if you don't then I really overestimated your intelligence to even discuss anything with you. So if you want to really discuss this, then let's discuss it, but if you are going to twist words and play gotcha games, I'm not interested.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Again ACG, I am not playing a gotcha word game with you. You know damn well what I mean, and if you don't then I really overestimated your intelligence to even discuss anything with you. So if you want to really discuss this, then let's discuss it, but if you are going to twist words and play gotcha games, I'm not interested.

    I didn't twist any words, I only went by what you posted. So you stated glucose was a carbohydrate and that parts of the brain need glucose, which would seem to go against your first statement that you don't need carbs for the brain.
  • DB_1106
    DB_1106 Posts: 154 Member
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    Again ACG, I am not playing a gotcha word game with you. You know damn well what I mean, and if you don't then I really overestimated your intelligence to even discuss anything with you. So if you want to really discuss this, then let's discuss it, but if you are going to twist words and play gotcha games, I'm not interested.

    I didn't twist any words, I only went by what you posted. So you stated glucose was a carbohydrate and that parts of the brain need glucose, which would seem to go against your first statement that you don't need carbs for the brain.

    But if you read further what I wrote you would have read that the brain can use up to 75% of it's energy from ketone bodies and the rest from glucose that is converted from protein.

    Maybe I should have clarified, but I figured you knew (which I know you do), but I should have said glucose is sugar. You caught me in the word game - you win. Can we discuss the facts though?
  • Resalyn
    Resalyn Posts: 528 Member
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    bump :happy:
  • LabRat529
    LabRat529 Posts: 1,323 Member
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    Also, while the brain's own neurons thrive on ketone bodies, cancer cells are not equipped for a ketogenic environment. They do not have the mechanisms for breaking ketone bodies into usable fuel. To divide and grow, cancer cells need sugar. Without sugar, they fail to grow and divide, or they die off. As sugar is a carbohydrate and the ketogenic diet restricts carbohydrates, the ketogenic diet makes it difficult for cancer cells to function. A sugar free diet that does not limit the intake of carbohydrates and protein does not have the same effect on cancer cells, as both carbohydrates and protein can be converted into sugar. Fat, on the other hand, can only be converted into small amounts of sugar when the body breaks down a small component of fat called glycerol.

    The first clinical trial testing of a ketogenic diet was conducted in Germany in 2007. The German hospital continues to recommend the diet for cancer patients with advanced cancer. In the initial trial, some patients died before the end of the trial, others went off the diet because of the prohibition of sweets. But all five patients who lasted till the end of the diet had positive outcomes. The cancer growth had either slowed down or stopped completely. In a couple of patients, the tumors shrunk. The doctors at the hospital continue to have very positive results in the treatment of advanced cancer.

    Yah... I'm gonna say.......erm.... I don't buy the cancer bit.

    Here's the deal... neurons can survive on ketones. Or, as you pointed out, there is always gluconeogenesis.

    But cancer? The cancers in brain is almost always from glial cells. Glia are not neurons. They're support cells... and all of them can use alternative fuels. They're hardier than neurons. And while I'm not a cancer specialist, I'm pretty sure a cancer from glia is going to do just fine on ketones or glucose or whatever.

    I don't have a problem with ketogenic diets.... well okay, that's not ENTIRELY true. I think they are unnecessarily restrictive and not a good way to go unless you're glucose intolerant for some reason... but hey, I can at least recognize that some people do really well on them. I can support that! Also, under some conditions, ketogenic diets might be beneficial for neurological disorders (see epilepsy, for example, and emerging evidence that they might help).

    But let's not make ketogenic diets a panacea. They have their place... but... yah. I guess that's all I have to say about that :P
  • LabRat529
    LabRat529 Posts: 1,323 Member
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    Also, while the brain's own neurons thrive on ketone bodies, cancer cells are not equipped for a ketogenic environment. They do not have the mechanisms for breaking ketone bodies into usable fuel. To divide and grow, cancer cells need sugar. Without sugar, they fail to grow and divide, or they die off. As sugar is a carbohydrate and the ketogenic diet restricts carbohydrates, the ketogenic diet makes it difficult for cancer cells to function. A sugar free diet that does not limit the intake of carbohydrates and protein does not have the same effect on cancer cells, as both carbohydrates and protein can be converted into sugar. Fat, on the other hand, can only be converted into small amounts of sugar when the body breaks down a small component of fat called glycerol.

    The first clinical trial testing of a ketogenic diet was conducted in Germany in 2007. The German hospital continues to recommend the diet for cancer patients with advanced cancer. In the initial trial, some patients died before the end of the trial, others went off the diet because of the prohibition of sweets. But all five patients who lasted till the end of the diet had positive outcomes. The cancer growth had either slowed down or stopped completely. In a couple of patients, the tumors shrunk. The doctors at the hospital continue to have very positive results in the treatment of advanced cancer.

    Yah... I'm gonna say.......erm.... I don't buy the cancer bit.

    Here's the deal... neurons can survive on ketones. Or, as you pointed out, there is always gluconeogenesis.

    But cancer? The cancers in brain is almost always from glial cells. Glia are not neurons. They're support cells... and all of them can use alternative fuels. They're hardier than neurons. And while I'm not a cancer specialist, I'm pretty sure a cancer from glia is going to do just fine on ketones or glucose or whatever.

    I don't have a problem with ketogenic diets.... well okay, that's not ENTIRELY true. I think they are unnecessarily restrictive and not a good way to go unless you're glucose intolerant for some reason... but hey, I can at least recognize that some people do really well on them. I can support that! Also, under some conditions, ketogenic diets might be beneficial for neurological disorders (see epilepsy, for example, and emerging evidence that they might help).

    But let's not make ketogenic diets a panacea. They have their place... but... yah. I guess that's all I have to say about that :P

    Oh... my bad. You weren't talking about just cancers in brain...

    Hmmm.... well I suppose it's possible that other tumors might not do well on ketones. But that's really going to depend on what tissue the tumor is derived from. So a ketogenic diet might benefit some patients but not others. Of course, you're also going to have problems with keeping food down when you're on chemo.... so maybe not? I imagine it is going to vary from patient to patient.
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    which would seem to go against your first statement that you don't need carbs for the brain.

    perhaps he meant to say you don't need to EAT carbs for the brain, having pointed out a way in which they can be created to meet whatever needs there are that ketones can't supply.

    There are no essential carbohydrates.
  • grannygethealthy1111
    grannygethealthy1111 Posts: 422
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    Why are you so hung up on carbs? If you don't want to eat them ... don't. Go out and get some exercise. I guarantee you THAT will not make you fat. Hee! Hee!

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  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,669 Member
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    Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,401 MFP Moderator
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    You really should define a carb. Are we talking complex or refined? Technically, veggies are carbs as well as fruits. If we are talking refined sugar i dont think you will get much push back but if you suggest reducing veggies and fruits as well i would just laugh. Also there has been plenty of studies that say low carb diets dont provide any additional benefit for weight loss over an extended period of time.


    Carbs are the quickest source of energy so why not eat them unless you have an inolerance to them.
  • suziecue66
    suziecue66 Posts: 1,312 Member
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    From Perfect Health Diet, Sep 2011:

    "Since we wrote our book, we’ve become a bit less excited about the therapeutic potential of ketogenic diets.

    Ketogenic diets have demonstrated effectiveness in brain cancers, and several considerations suggest that they would be helpful against all cancers:

    Cancer cells are dependent on glucose metabolism, a phenomenon called the Warburg effect. In ketosis, blood glucose levels can be decreased – a fall from 90 to 65 mg/dl is achievable – and reduced glucose availability should retard cancer growth.
    Mitochondria do well on ketones, and some studies had shown that provision of ketones can restore the ability of mitochondria to trigger apoptosis, or the programmed cell death of cancer cells.
    It’s too early to judge, but a few scraps of data published recently have made ketogenic diets seem a bit less exciting then hoped.

    First, the group of Michael Lisanti has published work suggesting that tumors can evade the metabolic restrictions of a ketogenic diet by manipulating neighboring normal cells. The idea (here is an overview) is that cancer cells release hydrogen peroxide, which causes a stress response in neighboring cells, stimulating them to release lactic acid, which the cancer cells can metabolize. This process can happen nearly as well on a ketogenic as on a normal diet, so the effectiveness of a ketogenic diet in starving the cancer cells is reduced.

    The Lisanti group results are hardly conclusive – indeed so far as I know no other group has supported their claims – and there are plenty of skeptics."
    http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=4739

    Go take a read at the link if interested, a lot more information.
  • indrani1947
    indrani1947 Posts: 178 Member
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    bump
  • shar140
    shar140 Posts: 1,158 Member
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    Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

    While this is true, being insulin resistant, I was spiking my insulin EVERY TIME I ATE before cutting down the carbs, inturn making me MORE insulin resistant and eventually probably would have led to type 2 diabetes. Instead, I'll spike my insulin every few days or once a week, not multiple times a day.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

    While this is true, being insulin resistant, I was spiking my insulin EVERY TIME I ATE before cutting down the carbs, inturn making me MORE insulin resistant and eventually probably would have led to type 2 diabetes. Instead, I'll spike my insulin every few days or once a week, not multiple times a day.

    So you only eat protein a few days a week to once a week?

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