what to do when cals in vs cals out doesn't work? (long)

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  • meerkat70
    meerkat70 Posts: 4,616 Member
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    Did she ask you to post this?
  • stubbysticks
    stubbysticks Posts: 1,275 Member
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    Did she ask you to post this?
    ^^^^
    This.

    I get that you really do have her best interests in mind & that she has expressed desire & demonstrated effort to improve her fitness. It seems odd that you are the one troubleshooting here though.
    she can't be the only woman with stress issues. How do other people overcome it?
    People overcome stress by changing something. People are motivated to change something when the fear of things staying the same outweighs the fear of change. People don't need to change anything if they have an enabler willing to drive & take all responsibility for establishing the food & exercise program.

    I learned the most about nutrition & fitness when I took the initiative to get out there myself & did research & asked questions & talked to people. If my husband was doing all that for me, at some level I would interpret that to mean he didn't believe I was capable of doing it myself. Rather than fight it, I might just go along knowing it's something I need to do anyway...but my heart wouldn't be in it.

    And if you're doing all this for her, how is she supposed to take credit for her own success?
  • poptastic
    poptastic Posts: 151 Member
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    As others have said, it sounds like she's not sticking with it long enough, if she doesn't have a lot to lose then she will need to be really strict. Things like eating a portion of a sweet treat last thing at night make me think that maybe she's not sticking with it as much as you think - this sounds a lot like me when I started out, and got discouraged through not seeing results. You just have to know that long enough with a calorie defecit, keeping yourself healthy through exercise and eating the right things, and you will see results eventually! But also, there is only a limited amount you can do to change your body shape - if your body stores its extra fat on your *kitten*, that's never gonna change!
  • Quasita
    Quasita Posts: 1,530 Member
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    I think one of the primary things you could do to benefit both her AND your relationship is to electively remove yourself as her trainer, and let her work with the professionals she wants to work with, when she's ready to do so.

    I personally HATE it when someone that I want to have love me for who I am takes an active role in monitoring and guiding my diet and fitness. it's not about whether or not they know what they are talking about. It's about causing undue stress that will sabotage your goals because you'll go back and forth between feeling like you are a failure in their eyes, and wondering why they want you to change so badly.

    This sounds like the relationship from hell to me and I'm not surprised in the least that she is frustrated, stressed, and ready to give up often.

    If she has a nutritionist, why not defer to them, and encourage her to do what feels right and possibly work with a trainer at the gym instead of you? It could relieve a lot of underlying stress, and allow her to take accountability without putting pressure on your relationship.
  • Hannah_PRprincess13
    Hannah_PRprincess13 Posts: 45
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    Honestly, she is not overweight to me. I'm 5'2 and I WISH I WAS 140 pounds. That's just my opinion.
  • cbeutler
    cbeutler Posts: 667 Member
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    Have her get checked for food intolerance, I have a friend that is lactose intolerant, and a cousin that is gluten intolerant. Try as they might no results when they aren't eating what is right for their bodies.
  • ilovedeadlifts
    ilovedeadlifts Posts: 2,923 Member
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    Tell her that it's going to take a minimum of 3-4 weeks before she will see results. Hide the scale from her except on Sundays and have her weigh herself on THAT day in the morning on an empty stomach. Once a week.

    Re-evaluate in 4 weeks.

    this.
    If she's new to lifting and just lifts for a week, chances are the scale won't move because of water retention.
    I never see results from week to week. I usually go back and re-evaluate after 3-4 months of doing something to see how it's coming along.
    patience.
  • SteveTries
    SteveTries Posts: 723 Member
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    48 replies and only 1 of them dared to suggest that maybe cals in -vs- cals out wasn't in fact broken, but that it had not been realised?

    So I'll be devils advocate then.

    The TDEE you worked out is just an estimate based on a formula derived from tests on a sample population then applied to an average person. Perhaps it's just not applicable to your significant other and the root cause is that calories in is equalling calories out. I realise it's almost heretic to suggest on these boards that people actually less, but I'll do it.

    Your own experience is much like my own. I experimented, I observed, I adjusted. Repeatedly. I'd advocate the same here. Ignore the theoretical TDEE, try caloric reduction, observe and respond. If she is being chronically underfed you'll know pretty quick and can adjust upward.
  • nikkilucero23
    nikkilucero23 Posts: 2
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    What did you mean by 'refeed'?
  • Quasita
    Quasita Posts: 1,530 Member
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    What did you mean by 'refeed'?

    Refeed is one of those terms that is mistakenly used in this context. It's technically a medical practice used to rehabilitate starving and underfed individuals.

    In this context, it means having a day where you eat more than your normal calorie deficit to "shock the body" so to speak... However, if you have a history of eating disorders or thyroid issues, it is best to consult a physician or dietary consultant before incorporating a day where you say, double your calories, because serious consequences can occur for people that have had metabolic issues in the past.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    And to add, 'refeeds' actually accomplish nothing from a biological standpoint. They are purely for psychological reasons.
  • Quasita
    Quasita Posts: 1,530 Member
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    And to add, 'refeeds' actually accomplish nothing from a biological standpoint. They are purely for psychological reasons.

    Thank you! "Refeed" as stated on MFP is just a way of excusing a glutton day... Not to say that it's not a good thing to do occasionally, for psych reasons, but metabolism doesn't respond that quickly... Might surge your insulin levels but not change much overall.

    A technical, medical refeed is 100-200 increase every 1-2 days until reaching appropriate intake level for the individual, starting from 1200 calories. That's the one thing that gets me about calorie counting on here, people putting themselves less than 1200 when that's the minimum they start a starvation rehab patient on... ANyway, I've ranted a lot about that already lol!
  • SueInAz
    SueInAz Posts: 6,592 Member
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    I'm about 5'3", 46 years old and pear-shaped and I made the decision to lose weight when I hit 140 pounds last year. The kicker here is, I made that decision for myself. While I thought I wanted to lose the weight for quite awhile before, and made feeble attempts at it, it wasn't until I really committed myself that I saw any success. Keep this in mind. If your girlfriend doesn't really and truly want this, she isn't going to succeed.

    As you're learning, and I already know, "calories in/calories out" simply doesn't work for everyone. I started out on a low carb diet last year because I've had success with that approach in the past. I dropped 5 pounds pretty quickly. I then started the Couch to 5K plan as my exercise and dropped another 7 until I hit 128 in early May. My husband was giving me grief about my diet so I switched back to a more balanced approach (in other words, higher carb, lower fat). Within two weeks I'd put 4 pounds back on and I spent the next three months losing and gaining back a couple of pounds. I could never get below 131. In the meantime, I was upping my running distance until I was running 4-5 miles several days per week. I was seeing a very moderate loss of inches but the scale wasn't budging.

    In August, I got frustrated with the lack of scale movement and switched back to eating low carb. This time I modified my approach a bit to make my home life easier. I ate very few carbs for breakfast and lunch and ate fairly "normally" at dinner, keeping my overall carb intake to around 70-90 grams per day. I avoided sugar and "white" carbs almost entirely getting the vast majority of my carbs from whole grains and vegetables. This, coupled with a calorie intake of 1350, I started to immediately see some small losses. By October, I was down to 123 pounds and a size 4 in pants. I've mostly maintained my weight loss since then although a back injury and the flu back to back sidelined my running for the last month, so I've put a few pounds back on. Since I've learned how my body works, you can bet I'll be cutting carbs again.
  • SteveTries
    SteveTries Posts: 723 Member
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    The term refeed has been adopted/*kitten* into dieting parlance from its original clinical meaning.

    But its absolutely not true to suggest it is absent value. A day spent at or above TDEE is more than an excuse for gluttony. It's a powerful tool for retaining focus and being strict the other 6 days. It's something that can absolutely help sustain a long term plan.

    There is debate about whether it also helps to reduce metabolic slowdown. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. That's a potential second order benefit to my mind.
  • amandamotley
    amandamotley Posts: 63
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    Birth control and stress can both affect weight loss. Birth control due to the fact that it manipulates hormones, and stress due to cortisol. High stress means high cortisol, high cortisol means no weight loss.

    Yes, her nutritionist told us the same thing... but she can't be the only woman with stress issues. How do other people overcome it?

    I'm a stressed disaster right now, and there is no question that it's making me hold on to some fluff around the belly. Of course there's no magic bullet, but a few things that really help me: making time for a walk with my bf on the weekends, cardio (I have ZERO time right now, so this is a feat, but totally worth it for the endorphins), getting enough sleep, and believe it or not, logging my intake on MFP. Anything that gives me a sense of control while things are insane. Is she into cooking and healthy eating, or does she just tolerate it? If there's time, a meal plan for the week and a big grocery shop help me feel like I have the week set up right, but I might just be a weirdo.
  • wackyfunster
    wackyfunster Posts: 944 Member
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    Have her get her thyroid function checked. If that is OK, have her start doing IF daily. Stick with the big compound lifts, but make sure the volume isn't too much for her on a caloric deficit (any serious fatigue is a good indicator of too much volume). I normally recommend 2 compound movements, 3 working sets reverse pyramid style for people on a serious caloric deficit... that seems to be pretty well tolerated by most people.

    Make sure she is getting enough vitamin C (to help with cortisol levels from stress... the IF will help as well) and protein.

    Lower body fat (hips and thighs in particular) is EXTREMELY hard for women to lose. Once she is <20% body fat, you may want to have her try something like LeanGains, and supplement alpha-yohimbine prior to fasted workout, which will help a lot.
  • wackyfunster
    wackyfunster Posts: 944 Member
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    And to add, 'refeeds' actually accomplish nothing from a biological standpoint. They are purely for psychological reasons.
    It will actually boost leptin levels substantially, which is probably of less value to women (whose leptin levels are already several times higher than men's), but can make a big difference for men who have been on a caloric/carb deficit for a while, and/or are at very low body fat. OTOH a carb-refeed coupled with high fat intake can erase any progress very quickly. I think there is definitely value there, in addition to the psychological aspect. Timing (should be after weight training) and macro content (should be low-fat) are important though.

    Just my 2c.
  • Quasita
    Quasita Posts: 1,530 Member
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    The term refeed has been adopted/*kitten* into dieting parlance from its original clinical meaning.

    But its absolutely not true to suggest it is absent value. A day spent at or above TDEE is more than an excuse for gluttony. It's a powerful tool for retaining focus and being strict the other 6 days. It's something that can absolutely help sustain a long term plan.

    There is debate about whether it also helps to reduce metabolic slowdown. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. That's a potential second order benefit to my mind.

    I don't think anyone said it was absent of value. All that was stated was that in the dieting world, the pros of the practice are usually more on the psychological standpoint, which is just another way of saying exactly what you did...
  • Quasita
    Quasita Posts: 1,530 Member
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    And to add, 'refeeds' actually accomplish nothing from a biological standpoint. They are purely for psychological reasons.
    It will actually boost leptin levels substantially, which is probably of less value to women (whose leptin levels are already several times higher than men's), but can make a big difference for men who have been on a caloric/carb deficit for a while, and/or are at very low body fat. OTOH a carb-refeed coupled with high fat intake can erase any progress very quickly. I think there is definitely value there, in addition to the psychological aspect. Timing (should be after weight training) and macro content (should be low-fat) are important though.

    Just my 2c.

    Only thing is, there isn't much research that would support it as a long term appetite suppressing solution. Eating excessive amounts of food will of course raise leptin, because you are theorectically going to be eating past the point of satiation. However, the hormone will be processed out of the system relatively quickly, especially in individuals with lesser body fat (and therefore less room to store excess)

    I always say to each their own, I just have an issue with how many terms get crossed in the dieting world when they originated in other realms of science.. Well, sort of "other" just meaning here on MFP, you could regard it as a pop-diet, whereas the origins of the terms were for clinical conditions.
  • meerkat70
    meerkat70 Posts: 4,616 Member
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    I don't suppose that there's any chance of getting people to recognise that talking about this woman in the third person as if she were a pet project, and object to be poked and prodded is a teensy bit inappropriate?

    Nah. Let's just carry on talking about her, and what's best for her, and what she might be thinking and feeling.... in her absence.

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