Opinions needed on muscle building while lowering body fat

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  • britcurl
    britcurl Posts: 110 Member
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    Gaining muscle = calorie surplus

    Losing fat = calorie deficit

    Doing both at the same time = impossible unless genetic freak or new to training as the body adjusts.
    I think calorie surplus would be fat Gaining.
    I don't see where extra calories would make you gain muscle.

    It's called bulking
  • lizziebeth1028
    lizziebeth1028 Posts: 3,602 Member
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    Gaining muscle = calorie surplus

    Losing fat = calorie deficit

    Doing both at the same time = impossible unless genetic freak or new to training as the body adjusts.

    I'm not doubting you because from your pic you obviously know what you are doing!! But I get confused on this issue too! Is it pointless then to strength train while you're still trying to lose weight? What if you are just trying to 'tone' your muscles? Is there a difference between toning and building muscle....or is it one and the same thing? I'm making the transition to lifting heavier weights but I'm still wavering between a slight calorie deficit and maintenance calories. From everything I keep reading....it's an exercise in futility because I may not be consuming enough calories?!?!
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Gaining muscle = calorie surplus

    Losing fat = calorie deficit

    Doing both at the same time = impossible unless genetic freak or new to training as the body adjusts.

    I'm not doubting you because from your pic you obviously know what you are doing!! But I get confused on this issue too! Is it pointless then to strength train while you're still trying to lose weight? What if you are just trying to 'tone' your muscles? Is there a difference between toning and building muscle....or is it one and the same thing? I'm making the transition to lifting heavier weights but I'm still wavering between a slight calorie deficit and maintenance calories. From everything I keep reading....it's an exercise in futility because I may not be consuming enough calories?!?!

    Firstly, it is never an exercise in futiliy to weight train, if only for the benefitial impact to your bone density which is especially difficult for women.

    You do not actually gain new muscle on a deficit, but you strength train to try to maintain the muscle you have. Also, if you strength train, even on a deficit, you will improve the existing muscles you have.

    Oversimplification here but:

    - eat at a deficit and strength train - improve the strength and 'definition' of your pre-existing muscle
    - eat at a surplus and strength train - the above plus gain new muscle.

    Also, as a female, even at a surplus, you have to train really hard and eat right to make more than relatively small gains.
  • lizziebeth1028
    lizziebeth1028 Posts: 3,602 Member
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    Gaining muscle = calorie surplus

    Losing fat = calorie deficit

    Doing both at the same time = impossible unless genetic freak or new to training as the body adjusts.

    I'm not doubting you because from your pic you obviously know what you are doing!! But I get confused on this issue too! Is it pointless then to strength train while you're still trying to lose weight? What if you are just trying to 'tone' your muscles? Is there a difference between toning and building muscle....or is it one and the same thing? I'm making the transition to lifting heavier weights but I'm still wavering between a slight calorie deficit and maintenance calories. From everything I keep reading....it's an exercise in futility because I may not be consuming enough calories?!?!

    Firstly, it is never an exercise in futiliy to weight train, if only for the benefitial impact to your bone density which is especially difficult for women.

    You do not actually gain new muscle on a deficit, but you strength train to try to maintain the muscle you have. Also, if you strength train, even on a deficit, you will improve the existing muscles you have.

    Oversimplification here but:

    - eat at a deficit and strength train - improve the strength and 'definition' of your pre-existing muscle
    - eat at a surplus and strength train - the above plus gain new muscle.

    Also, as a female, even at a surplus, you have to train really hard and eat right to make more than relatively small gains.

    Thanks for your response! I'm a firm believer in strength training in addition to cardio for a well rounded fitness routine. And I really am only interested in improving the muscle I have...not making any gains.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Thanks for your response! I'm a firm believer in strength training in addition to cardio for a well rounded fitness routine. And I really am only interested in improving the muscle I have...not making any gains.

    Keep doing what you are doing - not a waste of time at all. :smile:
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    Gaining muscle = calorie surplus

    Losing fat = calorie deficit

    Doing both at the same time = impossible unless genetic freak or new to training as the body adjusts.

    I'm not doubting you because from your pic you obviously know what you are doing!! But I get confused on this issue too! Is it pointless then to strength train while you're still trying to lose weight? What if you are just trying to 'tone' your muscles? Is there a difference between toning and building muscle....or is it one and the same thing? I'm making the transition to lifting heavier weights but I'm still wavering between a slight calorie deficit and maintenance calories. From everything I keep reading....it's an exercise in futility because I may not be consuming enough calories?!?!

    Firstly, it is never an exercise in futiliy to weight train, if only for the benefitial impact to your bone density which is especially difficult for women.

    You do not actually gain new muscle on a deficit, but you strength train to try to maintain the muscle you have. Also, if you strength train, even on a deficit, you will improve the existing muscles you have.

    Oversimplification here but:

    - eat at a deficit and strength train - improve the strength and 'definition' of your pre-existing muscle
    - eat at a surplus and strength train - the above plus gain new muscle.

    Also, as a female, even at a surplus, you have to train really hard and eat right to make more than relatively small gains.

    Saurak2sf pretty much nailed it here. You won't build muscle in a deficit but you'll get neuro-muscular adptation. You muscles tissue will appear (and probably get) slightly larger and more defined and your get stronger leaner and healthier. All good things. Unless we want to get bigger, there are not a lot of reasons to need to grow new muscle tissue. Some, but not a lot and even fewer for women.
  • Matt_Wild
    Matt_Wild Posts: 2,673 Member
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    Gaining muscle = calorie surplus

    Losing fat = calorie deficit

    Doing both at the same time = impossible unless genetic freak or new to training as the body adjusts.

    I'm not doubting you because from your pic you obviously know what you are doing!! But I get confused on this issue too! Is it pointless then to strength train while you're still trying to lose weight? What if you are just trying to 'tone' your muscles? Is there a difference between toning and building muscle....or is it one and the same thing? I'm making the transition to lifting heavier weights but I'm still wavering between ha slight calorie deficit and maintenance calories. From everything I keep reading....it's an exercise in futility because I may not be consuming enough calories?!?!

    You can't tone, it doesn't exist. You either build muscle or lose fat. People tend to use the word 'tone' when they lose fat and expose the muscle they have underneath.

    In terms of cardio, it is good for you, helps nutrient uptake and overall as said, the body prefers to be well fed and calories burnt off rather than underfed due to hormonal controls within the body concerning leptin and thyroid hormones.
  • iWaffle
    iWaffle Posts: 2,208 Member
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    You can't tone, it doesn't exist. You either build muscle or lose fat.

    THIS!! I wish we could strike the word "tone" or have it automatically replaced with "build muscle" anytime someone says this. My other favorite is when people want to "tone up a little". Yeah, just do it a little because you would look awesome if you did it a lot.
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
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    You can't tone, it doesn't exist. You either build muscle or lose fat.

    THIS!! I wish we could strike the word "tone" or have it automatically replaced with "build muscle" anytime someone says this. My other favorite is when people want to "tone up a little". Yeah, just do it a little because you would look awesome if you did it a lot.

    While I agree...I've kind of come to think of 'toning' as a generic word for neuromuscular adaptation.

    *shrug*
  • lizziebeth1028
    lizziebeth1028 Posts: 3,602 Member
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    So........if I am lifting weights but at a slight deficit to maintenance calories -

    What type of benefits and results will I see?

    Just curious...I'm going to keep lifting regardless because I like it and it feels good. I'm just not comfortable with upping my calories when I feel I have a few more pounds to go.
  • Matt_Wild
    Matt_Wild Posts: 2,673 Member
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    You can't tone, it doesn't exist. You either build muscle or lose fat.

    THIS!! I wish we could strike the word "tone" or have it automatically replaced with "build muscle" anytime someone says this. My other favorite is when people want to "tone up a little". Yeah, just do it a little because you would look awesome if you did it a lot.

    While I agree...I've kind of come to think of 'toning' as a generic word for neuromuscular adaptation.

    *shrug*

    WHAT are you toning?
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    You can't tone, it doesn't exist. You either build muscle or lose fat.

    THIS!! I wish we could strike the word "tone" or have it automatically replaced with "build muscle" anytime someone says this. My other favorite is when people want to "tone up a little". Yeah, just do it a little because you would look awesome if you did it a lot.

    While I agree...I've kind of come to think of 'toning' as a generic word for neuromuscular adaptation.

    *shrug*


    Me too, although it is a little like fingernails on a blackboard when I see it.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    So........if I am lifting weights but at a slight deficit to maintenance calories -

    What type of benefits and results will I see?

    The benefits that were previously stated, improved bone density, improved strength and muscle structure and all kinds of postive hormonal benefits, reduced body fat and improved weight control.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    You can't tone, it doesn't exist. You either build muscle or lose fat.

    THIS!! I wish we could strike the word "tone" or have it automatically replaced with "build muscle" anytime someone says this. My other favorite is when people want to "tone up a little". Yeah, just do it a little because you would look awesome if you did it a lot.

    While I agree...I've kind of come to think of 'toning' as a generic word for neuromuscular adaptation.

    *shrug*

    I think (or assume) that this is what people mean. Most folks will not even know the accurate way to explain what they are trying to say.

    While the word 'toning" may be annoying to some, it really should be read in the context of what the person is trying to say, and "neuromuscular adaptation' is a little long and not exactly 'catchy'.
  • cnwofor
    cnwofor Posts: 9 Member
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    Hi again

    Someone posted the following in response to my post.

    "I don't doubt your expertise for one minute, however I'm not so sure of your theory. If you bump up your calories to 3000 you are NOT still getting 600 from your fat stores, as your body will not use these stores whilst it is getting enough from the easier to burn fuel source that you're giving it. It won't 'save' 600 of those calories for future muscle growth!"

    You have to realize that your body continually burns energy while you only feed it 3-5 times a day. If you are eating closer to 2-3 times a day the periods when your body dig into your reserves will be extended. Remember when you eat some of those calories become stored and some even turned to fat until slightly later when they are needed.

    I couldn't pin point the article I was referring to but if you head over at http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com and either search yourself or ask for the study link, you should get it.

    My previous post was a theory, a possible explanation for why it is possible and people are losing fat when adding muscle.
  • Matt_Wild
    Matt_Wild Posts: 2,673 Member
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    Sorry, if you eat 3000 cals in 2-3 meal or 3000 in 6, you still consume 3000 calories in total and the amount needing to be used for you to maintain is 3000. This has been shown in studies. More meals just make it easier for some people to stomach.
  • Wonderob
    Wonderob Posts: 1,372 Member
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    Sorry, if you eat 3000 cals in 2-3 meal or 3000 in 6, you still consume 3000 calories in total and the amount needing to be used for you to maintain is 3000. This has been shown in studies. More meals just make it easier for some people to stomach.

    Ok I get what you are saying there and wouldn't disagree - 3000 calories is 3000 calories. Meal timing doesn't alter that. Meal timing DOESN'T matter.

    However.....

    Athletes, bodybuilders, professional sporsmen all seem to follow a strict eating regime. Pasta for carbs BEFORE a football match, banana or similar DURING a tennis match. Some kind of nutrients AFTER a workout (I'm sure you have had your own pre and post workout food regime at some time) So meal timing DOES matter???
  • Matt_Wild
    Matt_Wild Posts: 2,673 Member
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    It helps with recovery it is argued. Many people equally argue that as long as the aminos and carbs etc are in your blood, it doesnt matter about specific timings.

    Thats NOTHING to do with fat loss.
  • Wonderob
    Wonderob Posts: 1,372 Member
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    It helps with recovery it is argued. Many people equally argue that as long as the aminos and carbs etc are in your blood, it doesnt matter about specific timings.

    Thats NOTHING to do with fat loss.

    Doesn't change the 3000 calories is 3000 calories regardless of when you consume them statement but I would argue that your workout intensity or your high intensity cario session will be affacted by your meal timings

    i.e. The person eating 4 or 5 meals a day is able to perform a high intensity session (high fat burn)
    The starving hungry person who has 2 meals a day and has gone 16 hours since he has last eaten is only able to perform a low intensity worout (low fat burn)

    So indirectly????
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    It helps with recovery it is argued. Many people equally argue that as long as the aminos and carbs etc are in your blood, it doesnt matter about specific timings.

    Thats NOTHING to do with fat loss.

    What Matt has said here! As an example, I just recently adjusted my carb intake before and after my lifting session as I was having issues with recovery and fatigue. Found out that, as the weights were getting heavier (I am doing Stronglifts 5x5) I was experienceing too much anaerobic glycolysis, a fancy way of saying I was utilizing too much glycogen and not replacing it adequately, so my body would be stressed for a day or 2 and I'd be tired until it would finally recover. I upped carbs and my recovery is much better. I didn't do it just before or just after my workout. I just did it within a 24 to 36 hour period. It had no effect on fat loss or overall calorie intake.

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