Everything in moderation? Really?
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Everything in moderation is what is FINALLY working for me. It doesn't mean I will eat everything...there are things I simply can't even imagine eating now that I used to think were delicious. However, FOR ME, it works because as a bit of a perfectionist, in the past when I caved and had a bite of something, I thought screw it, I might as well eat the whole thing....and then continue to eat everything in sight and go on a binge. Now I say, hmmmm, that really wasn't worth it. Or, gosh that was good! And that's it. Right back to eating the tasty stuff I know my body REALLY craves...and it isn't the high fat, high sugar, high sodium I used to think I craved.
Everyone has to find what works for them to become happier and healthier. :drinker:0 -
This is another one of those "in my experience" things. For example, I used to love...*LOVE* frosted brown sugar cinnamon poptarts. De-frickin'-licious. After having cut the flours and added sugars and artificial flavorings from my diet for a while, I took a bite of one of these incredibly awesome foods and...ugh. So overpoweringly sugary and the flavor was so...(unnatural? chemical?)...just not good. Similar thing with other foods. Foods that I once thought were delicious, once I stopped eating them (and others like them) for a long period of time, were no longer tasty to me.
And I am not currently in a "lose" state of my diet, so I certainly have room for the calories if I want to partake of these foods. It's just that this time, for whatever reason, I do not want to. This differs from times in my life before when I followed the EIM approach and never stopped craving them. I would build my calories around them one today, and then find myself building my calories around something else the next day. My day was consumed with when I was going to get my next hit of instantly satisfying food...
Eh, at this point, I'm probably just repeating things I've said earlier in this thread. So I'll repeat my (latest version of my) summary: there is another path available besides EIM that may work for you. And it may not. But it just might be worth considering the potential benefits of exploring it.
First I want to say I get what you are trying to say about your message and I don't disagree.
As for this post, I also get what you are saying, and have had a similar experience, but came about it in a different way. I did my first bodybuilding competition this year. My diet was extremely restrictive, which I don't tend to do well with. I was allowed an evil "cheat day", then later only a cheat meal, once every week or two. I was surprised to find that I managed ok. When I had a craving, I put it on my mental "to eat" list. Often, by the time my cheat rolled around, I found I not longer wanted the food. If I did, I had it.
The other thing I found was that with only so much time (even a whole day you can only eat so much), I started really placing a value on food. Suddenly the Big Mac or Whopper just wasnt as good as a meal from my favorite local restaurant that uses fresh ingredients, or my homemade pasta. Very early on I stopped going for fast food, not because I couldnt but because indidnt want to, and I haven't returned since (competition was in April). I will never go without a good pizza but could care less if I ate a whopper again. I am not restricting myself, my tastes have changed. Very similar to what happened to you, only different way of getting there. I am not saying my way is better or will work for everyone either. My opinion on "cheat days" or "free days" or what ever you want to call it is also hotly debated.0 -
I think if someone's going to take the superior foodie and clean eater position they need to do a little better than supermarket chocolate and mass market butter. Tbh, my idea of a good meal is a whole bunch of offal, bread, and at least one "complimentary" palate cleanser. I also enjoy a good chicken schnitz or a pie (entrails and hoofs!) at the footy. And you know what? Airline food is freaking awesome. I don't care what class it is; from risotto and giant prawns in business to a tray of unidentifiable meat while cramped in economy. Oh, and the way some lounges have these really downmarket canapes with wilting chives as garnish... magic. It all has its place. There's a Russian restaurant near me that I'm dying to visit, and apparently one of the dishes is... get this... a whole bunch of cooked and raw vegetables mixed together with supermarket mayonnaise and chopped processed meat. You'd better believe that sucker is going to get in my tummy sometime in the next month or so.
For me a big part of life is enjoying myself, and enjoying other people's company, over good food. Whether that be splitting a hot dog for a quick post-theatre supper, chomping my way through the best in condensed milk and fried bread that KL has to offer, or just kicking back with oysters, cheap white bread and plenty of beer on a hot day. I've tried cutting all that out and only managed to alienate friends and family with my absolutely mad eating style. Why inconvenience others because I'm incapable of saying to myself "no, you will not eat half a loaf of bread and butter with your slimy shellfish"? Why hurt myself by missing out on the fun? I'd rather learn to enjoy all these things in moderation than declare war on a loaf of squishy, preservative-laden, nutritionally bankrupt bread.
Nice story, but I think you missed the point. (If it's any solace, you aren't the first to use this opportunity to share your food-centered lifestyle with the group.) My post was about a possible alternative to EIM to make effective changes to dietary habits. I'm sorry to hear that your initial attempts at making better food choices resulted in alienating friends and family. I would say that you didn't do it right, but I don't really know the whole story. I will say that I have not experienced any problems whatsoever in my network of friends and family, but our relationships have never been that strongly dictated by or centered around food. Perhaps *I* am the one that has been doing it wrong.
So how did you get "superior foodie" from my posts or my food diary? My open food diary should make it very clear that I am most certainly not (or if I am, I don't realize it yet...and I'm not a very good one either). My food diary should be make it very obvious that I have a rather simple palate. Given your jab at "supermarket chocolate" and "mass market butter", I suppose you already looked at that though. I haven't found an 85%+ chocolate that I like better than Green & Black's 85%. If you have any recommendations (and surely you do), I'm all ears; similarly for the "mass market butter", although I am currently very comfortable with the nutritional profile of the Kerrygold butter that I enjoy so often now.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with your diet, but it's a hardly a platform from which to make a stand against the horrors of moderate eating and processed foods. So no, I haven't missed the point. You're slating a way of eating and demonising processed foods while enjoying a fairly low quality diet. Hey, nothing wrong with that. I prefer Lindt's 85% dark chocolate to the freetrade Ecuadorian stuff without evilllllll soy and opt for jarred olives with delicious gelatinous pimento centres instead of fancy almond stuffed beasts bathing in oil. I love lowrent eating! Here's to butter from unpastured cows and guacamole in a plastic tub!
That said, most cultures revolve around food. Food is love, it's comfort, it's an assurance of economic stability. Food is a way for families to connect. It's not a conscious decision to focus on food, rather it's a series of rituals that have worked for generations. I just can't see travelling to countries where food plays such an important role and not following along with the (slim) locals. Why go out of your way to ruin a holiday by demanding only food that meets a certain (seemingly very low) standard? Why insult the families of good friends by insisting that I can't enjoy a few bites of homemade chips wrapped in Lebanese bread because it's not on a short list of pre-approved meals? Why spoil that trip to the theatre by rushing home to eat a 'clean' meal because the play started half an hour after I got out of the office and I hadn't eaten since midmorning thanks to a hectic schedule? Half the pleasure in heading to the theatre is the discussion afterward, whether that be over a hotdog, some nice cheese or something else entirely. I'd rather not have my life revolve around what I don't eat and instead learn to mimic my slim friends' moderate eating habits. That way I can travel and socialise in a world where I don't fret over the origin and makeup of my next meal while still getting to my goal weight. Perhaps I won't get there as quickly as other dieters, but I'd rather get there slowly than avoid my friends and tell my travel partner that all future trips are to be planned around a very specific diet.0 -
I see absolutely nothing wrong with your diet, but it's a hardly a platform from which to make a stand against the horrors of moderate eating and processed foods. So no, I haven't missed the point. You're slating a way of eating and demonising processed foods while enjoying a fairly low quality diet. Hey, nothing wrong with that. I prefer Lindt's 85% dark chocolate to the freetrade Ecuadorian stuff without evilllllll soy and opt for jarred olives with delicious gelatinous pimento centres instead of fancy almond stuffed beasts bathing in oil. I love lowrent eating! Here's to butter from unpastured cows and guacamole in a plastic tub!
That said, most cultures revolve around food. Food is love, it's comfort, it's an assurance of economic stability. Food is a way for families to connect. It's not a conscious decision to focus on food, rather it's a series of rituals that have worked for generations. I just can't see travelling to countries where food plays such an important role and not following along with the (slim) locals. Why go out of your way to ruin a holiday by demanding only food that meets a certain (seemingly very low) standard? Why insult the families of good friends by insisting that I can't enjoy a few bites of homemade chips wrapped in Lebanese bread because it's not on a short list of pre-approved meals? Why spoil that trip to the theatre by rushing home to eat a 'clean' meal because the play started half an hour after I got out of the office and I hadn't eaten since midmorning thanks to a hectic schedule? Half the pleasure in heading to the theatre is the discussion afterward, whether that be over a hotdog, some nice cheese or something else entirely. I'd rather not have my life revolve around what I don't eat and instead learn to mimic my slim friends' moderate eating habits. That way I can travel and socialise in a world where I don't fret over the origin and makeup of my next meal while still getting to my goal weight. Perhaps I won't get there as quickly as other dieters, but I'd rather get there slowly than avoid my friends and tell my travel partner that all future trips are to be planned around a very specific diet.
"fairly low quality diet"? With most of my produce sourced directly from local farmers? Grass fed beef raised by family on local pastures? Fairly low quality diet indeed. :huh:
I suppose if you frequently travel to these awesome locations, then no, this approach would probably not work for you. However, if you're like most people and only occasionally travel outside your own local area, then it just might. I suppose my post is for them.
I tried the Lindt 85% and wasn't overly impressed. I suppose my palate lacks a proper sophistication for fine chocolate.
And to be clear, I am not currently trying to diet to a goal weight. I lost it already through about six months of miserable, torturous deprivation of certain foods-that-shall-not-be-named. No, wait, that isn't exactly right, but it's close enough to what it seems others read this approach as being.0 -
And given an overly simplistic choice between a path that leads to truly believing a McDonald's Big Mac tastes awesome and a path that leads to truly believing that baked salmon with fresh veggies and fruit tastes awesome, well, I'm just letting people know that this latter path exists and that some people have found success on it.
This doesn't sound anything like your OP. What does enjoying the taste of salmon, veggies and fruit have to do with not eating other things in moderation? I love salmon, love most veggies, and many fruits. That doesn't stop me from enjoying a piece of cake at an occasional wedding or birthday party. Nor does enjoying that piece of cake make me fat or ruin my health.
Because I believe that indulging in certain foods (which likely differ by individual) may be derailing some people from reaching their goals.
Is it the indulging or the overindulging?
I think both sides of this can agree that "overindulging" is probably not optimal. My (clearly unpopular) position is that by not indulging at all, some may find that they are then able to stay "on plan" and no longer have issues with cravings for certain foods. It's just an alternative approach to a problem with which it seems many people struggle.
I think that if you had made the general comment that people should not insist that there is only one way to reach their weight loss and fitness goals, and should change what they're doing if it doesn't work for them (either from an adherence or weight loss perspective), no one would have disagreed. I'm still not sure why EIM was singled out, and not any of the other 300 ways.0 -
And given an overly simplistic choice between a path that leads to truly believing a McDonald's Big Mac tastes awesome and a path that leads to truly believing that baked salmon with fresh veggies and fruit tastes awesome, well, I'm just letting people know that this latter path exists and that some people have found success on it.
This doesn't sound anything like your OP. What does enjoying the taste of salmon, veggies and fruit have to do with not eating other things in moderation? I love salmon, love most veggies, and many fruits. That doesn't stop me from enjoying a piece of cake at an occasional wedding or birthday party. Nor does enjoying that piece of cake make me fat or ruin my health.
Because I believe that indulging in certain foods (which likely differ by individual) may be derailing some people from reaching their goals.
Is it the indulging or the overindulging?
I think both sides of this can agree that "overindulging" is probably not optimal. My (clearly unpopular) position is that by not indulging at all, some may find that they are then able to stay "on plan" and no longer have issues with cravings for certain foods. It's just an alternative approach to a problem with which it seems many people struggle.
I think that if you had made the general comment that people should not insist that there is only one way to reach their weight loss and fitness goals, and should change what they're doing if it doesn't work for them (either from an adherence or weight loss perspective), no one would have disagreed. I'm still not sure why EIM was singled out, and not any of the other 300 ways.
I probably picked on EIM because, in this very week, I have read several times in a few different places, and even heard it in person once, a combination of 1) it is impossible to maintain long-term if you eliminate certain foods, 2) that it is dangerous to eliminate certain foods (such as "heart healthy grains" in all of their various forms), and 3) cravings are a part of dieting and there is nothing you can do about it. (And many times on MFP, I've seen EIM held up (by many) as the One True Way to dietary enlightenment.) My personal opinion is that those points are all bogus (or at the least are not necessarily true). So rather than make a relatively benign (and boring) "we are all on equally worthy multiple paths to our goals and all of us are going to achieve them" post with the intention of everyone getting along perfectly, I chose to single out the sacred cow of EIM and try to spark some dialogue about it.
If I had it to do over again, eh, I still would...(although I'd like to think I would have been more thorough in my initial post, but honestly, probably not as I enjoyed the back and forth as I further refined what I was trying to convey). And judging from the responses on this thread (and several that I received directly), I would say that, (my failure in effectively and efficiently communicating notwithstanding), it was a success.
We now return you to your usual MFP forum threads about eating back exercise calories, how to obtain optimal health on only 1200 calories per day, the relative densities of fat and muscle, and rate the person above you.0 -
Does this all boil down to the fact that you don't think people should eat grains?0
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Sorry, you ruin your position with the chocolate, butter, and guacamole in a plastic tub. I'm sure there are more examples of poor diet to be had but you can only diary stalk for so long.
Lindt is absolutely downmarket chocolate. And my goodness I enjoy the stuff. I'm not going to pretend that I'm better than supermarket chocolate or the odd entrail and hoof pie at the footy.
Maybe most people you know don't often travel, but a fair number of my circle are overseas often for work, to visit family, or just to have fun. It's what you do when you live on a sparsely populated continent with a limited number of options for domestic travel.
I totally agree with with your approach to weight loss as long as you can maintain it (as Boris Yelnikoff so wisely said 'whatever works'), but you've a fairly haughty view of other people's eating habits despite your own being unimpressive. Also, your diet is incredibly repetitive. Personally I'm a big fan of repetitive eating but I know it would drive a lot of people into the loving, sugary arms of a box of Poptarts. So you don't do work functions, travel, spend time with friends whose cultural backgrounds are very food-centred or engage in activities where the occasional treat plays a central role. Cool. Not a life I could imagine living, and probably not one that a lot of other posters would want. But again... whatever works.
Cheers!0 -
Sorry, you ruin your position with the chocolate, butter, and guacamole in a plastic tub. I'm sure there are more examples of poor diet to be had but you can only diary stalk for so long.
Lindt is absolutely downmarket chocolate. And my goodness I enjoy the stuff. I'm not going to pretend that I'm better than supermarket chocolate or the odd entrail and hoof pie at the footy.
Maybe most people you know don't often travel, but a fair number of my circle are overseas often for work, to visit family, or just to have fun. It's what you do when you live on a sparsely populated continent with a limited number of options for domestic travel.
I totally agree with with your approach to weight loss as long as you can maintain it (as Boris Yelnikoff so wisely said 'whatever works'), but you've a fairly haughty view of other people's eating habits despite your own being unimpressive. Also, your diet is incredibly repetitive. Personally I'm a big fan of repetitive eating but I know it would drive a lot of people into the loving, sugary arms of a box of Poptarts. So you don't do work functions, travel, spend time with friends whose cultural backgrounds are very food-centred or engage in activities where the occasional treat plays a central role. Cool. Not a life I could imagine living, and probably not one that a lot of other posters would want. But again... whatever works.
Cheers!
I didn't even recognize that you were quoting my own diary when you referenced the Lindt chocolate, Kerrygold (although I think you had a different derogatory descriptor for it) butter, and guacamole from a plastic tub. (How far back did you have to go to get to the Lindt chocolate? I can't remember the last time I had that...but I did remember that I didn't care much for it.)
And my position on these foods you selected for discussion is far from ruined. I guess we have differing views on the nutritional qualities of them because, in my opinion, (and based on my research) each are fine choices and in no way violate my overall approach to eating.
As for the consistency of my diet, that will change as different fruits and veggies are in season (and if my grocery store of choice would stop running sales on the fresh sockeye salmon).
Cheers, indeed.0 -
Does this all boil down to the fact that you don't think people should eat grains?
For those who are struggling to reach and maintain their goals, grains would be a type of food that they may want to consider taking a break from to see if it affects cravings. It is not uncommon for some to struggle with cravings for grain-based foods while trying to eat them in moderation, and for those cravings to disappear (or be significantly diminished) after they eliminate them entirely from their diet.
(EDIT: with sentences this long and awkwardly phrased, it can be difficult to keep the verb tense consistent.)0 -
"This is another one of those "in my experience" things. For example, I used to love...*LOVE* frosted brown sugar cinnamon poptarts. De-frickin'-licious. After having cut the flours and added sugars and artificial flavorings from my diet for a while, I took a bite of one of these incredibly awesome foods and...ugh. So overpoweringly sugary and the flavor was so...(unnatural? chemical?)...just not good. Similar thing with other foods. Foods that I once thought were delicious, once I stopped eating them (and others like them) for a long period of time, were no longer tasty to me.
And I am not currently in a "lose" state of my diet, so I certainly have room for the calories if I want to partake of these foods. It's just that this time, for whatever reason, I do not want to. This differs from times in my life before when I followed the EIM approach and never stopped craving them. I would build my calories around them one today, and then find myself building my calories around something else the next day. My day was consumed with when I was going to get my next hit of instantly satisfying food...
Eh, at this point, I'm probably just repeating things I've said earlier in this thread. So I'll repeat my (latest version of my) summary: there is another path available besides EIM that may work for you. And it may not. But it just might be worth considering the potential benefits of exploring it. "
As much as it absolutely PAINS me to agree with you...
I MUST agree with you that once you give up the processed JUNK...that it just isnt very good anymore...take my crutch, Dr. Peppers...I gave them up cold turkey 3 months ago....a few weeks back, I really wanted on...so badly....I popped the top, almost giddy with excitement...that first sip...EWWWW...gross...syrupy, sweet, simply gross!!!
I have gone pretty clean with my diet as of late...not nearly to your level...not sure that I will ever be to YOUR level...but then again...I didnt think that I would be very low in carbs everyday either! Something very surprising to me...is that my energy level is dramatically better...I feel terrific!
So, even though you aren't making many friends here....LOL....I get ya....and you have made me a believer! And I am a *****...so...
Still gonna have my glass of wine here and there...we can butt heads about that at a later date!
Carry on... :drinker:0 -
I find it utterly ridiculous to equate happiness with food. That is an unhealthy emotional attachment with something that can be very detrimental to one's health.
Centuries worth of cultures around the world would find your statement utterly ridiculous. Food is part of life. It's part of ritual, and family, and local custom and many other things. All throughout time people found joy through food and celebration. It wasn't until the scientist got involved that food got a bad rap.
You just made my Anthropology degree squeal with delight.0 -
Am I the only person on MFP who *doesn't* believe in "everything in moderation"?
sadly, no. but I wish you were.0 -
You pick your vices and I'll pick mine. If it's working for you, whatever, but don't get mad when I happily sit down next to you with my occassional chick fil a or my second glass of 4oz of wine or my carefully alloted for cookie or my measured handful of dark chocolate goodness.
For you it's not worth it to eat those things, for me it's worth the extra time in the gym so I can eat those things and still have it work for me.
Pull up a chair. And if the topic of food choice comes up in our conversation, we can share our differing viewpoints. (Although we will at least find common ground on quality dark chocolate. My current preference is Green & Black's 85%. Mmmm.)
If anyone thinks I am mad that people are finding their successes in an "EIM" approach, or that I somehow feel superior to them because my approach is different, I believe they are completely misunderstanding.
I may share my chocolate, but I am particular about who I'm sharing that with, lol. Honestly, I'm a binger (used to also be a purger) and I find that Eim is the healthiest outlook on food for me and my past issues. Now the only time I binge (no purging) is when I let a craving go on for too long, I'm in general too hungry, or grieving.
I do find that occasionally people who don't understand the work I put in and the slight amount of discipline I have do get pretty bitter because I eat what I want. I'm just responsible about how I do it.0 -
If I really like something, I'm not gonna deprive myself completely of it even if it is "unhealthy". It will just be reserved for special occasions.0
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I believe in most foods in moderation.
I still don't eat fried food at all, though.0 -
we dont have much money and sometimes not much food in the house. Neighbor uses my cell phone and gives me unhealthy food in return. I usually let the kids have it but sometimes I cant pass it by as it sometimes is pretty much the only thing to eat in the house0
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I eat pretty much anything I want... in moderation. Works for me. But... if you want to avoid something... that is cool too. If it works for you, do your thing.0
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I agree with you, I eat in moderation and if I REALLY want something, I eat it, but I don't eat junk daily and I try to hold myself off for a while on things sometimes.0
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agreed...Am I the only person on MFP who *doesn't* believe in "everything in moderation"? That some foods just aren't worth eating, so I don't? That some foods are processed to the point that they don't really seem like food anymore and the only reason you *think* they taste good is because you are conditioned to believe they taste good? That the excuse of "if I don't eat it, then I'll just crave it more and that will destroy my diet" is just that, an excuse? That maybe, just maybe, the "secret" to ending a "bad relationship" with certain foods that ultimately cause you to stumble in your diet is to stop eating them entirely (and then learning that once you do, these foods no longer have such power over you)?
:huh:
ETA: And please don't misunderstand, I'm not talking about *never* eating something that isn't totally healthy for you. I understand that sometimes, certain foods *are* worth the dietary hit. I'm talking about the constant insistence that *nothing* is ever off limits (and then the subsequent problem: a frequent indulgence in foods like these).0
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