Disadvantages of Keto diet
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Lol, substitutions aren't the real thing. I drink Diet Pepsi to save calories, but it NOT the same as a regular Pepsi.ogmomma2012 wrote: »If you like to eat carbs and enjoy things like ice cream, cake, etc., then keto is a disadvantage.
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IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I can easily make these things keto and they don't trigger a binge & food coma like high-carb "real" cakes and ice cream.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 0 -
No you're not.TrailNurse wrote: »I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.
Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth
Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.
During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.
KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.
HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.
In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.
By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.
References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 6 -
No you're not.TrailNurse wrote: »I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.
Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth
Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.
During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.
KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.
HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.
In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.
By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.
References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
No you're not? Really?
I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.
Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/
I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Note these are based on my personal experience so they may or may not apply to you:
If you are a volume eater like me or if you tend to eat more vegetables than keto allows, you may find it very hard to adapt your portions and as a result may overeat and gain weight like I did.
If your food preferences are very far removed from what is allowed on keto, you may find it boring and even stressful.
If you are prone to chronic depression, stress, anxiety, cortisol issues, hormonal issues related to menstrual cycle or certain GI issues keto may be a very bad idea for you.
If you don't take very careful care to keep your electrolytes balanced and you are prone to imbalances you may experience bad side effects.
If your social food choices are often high in carbs it may be a bit hard to adapt to social situations.
You may still need to count calories if a ketogenic diet does not produce the desired spontaneous calorie reduction, making it unnecessary.
However, you may not experience any of the above and may find it easier to eat a ketogenic diet like some. The only way to find out if this diet is easier for you than good old moderation is to try it out for a couple of months and see how you feel. If it feels easy and pleasant, continue, if not, you can simply go back to what feels easier to you. It's not like you are signing a contract.
This/\
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No you're not.TrailNurse wrote: »I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.
Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth
Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.
During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.
KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.
HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.
In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.
By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.
References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
No you're not? Really?
I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.
Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/
I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.
Is there a like to the actual study? I didnt see it.
It would depend on your goals. If you want a good aesethic and maintain or increase muscle mass during a deficit than carb timing or total might be important. Personally sustaining muscle during weight loss is important to me because it will help keep you body lean, muscle is directly linked to metabolic functions, more muscle means a stronger body and so much more. Overall, i dont want skinny. I want fit and strong and i want the most effective route of doing that.
Now i have seen some studies that support keto as being able to maintain but i am not sure if it was keto or ckd (cycled keto diet) and protein was at 1g per lb of lbm.0 -
Surely there's sites dedicated and run by keto body builders?? I have no idea, I've never done a search for any.0
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No you're not.TrailNurse wrote: »I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.
Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth
Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.
During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.
KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.
HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.
In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.
By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.
References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
No you're not? Really?
I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.
Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/
I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.
Is there a like to the actual study? I didnt see it.
It would depend on your goals. If you want a good aesethic and maintain or increase muscle mass during a deficit than carb timing or total might be important. Personally sustaining muscle during weight loss is important to me because it will help keep you body lean, muscle is directly linked to metabolic functions, more muscle means a stronger body and so much more. Overall, i dont want skinny. I want fit and strong and i want the most effective route of doing that.
Now i have seen some studies that support keto as being able to maintain but i am not sure if it was keto or ckd (cycled keto diet) and protein was at 1g per lb of lbm.
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young.Christine_72 wrote: »Surely there's sites dedicated and run by keto body builders?? I have no idea, I've never done a search for any.
Ketogains is all I can think of. Some of those guys have had good results.0 -
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young..
I fifured there was very limited research. In fact, there isnt nearly that much research when it comes to bulk... well not compared to losing weight.
I have no doubt that i can be done and i know there are several members on low carb and keto diets that have impressive results. But as noted, while it can be done, it may not be as effective or apply to as great of a population.
But ultimately you have to chose a method that supports ones goals. Some its just health.. others its more aesthetic and performance and others its powerlifting.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Surely there's sites dedicated and run by keto body builders?? I have no idea, I've never done a search for any.
Body builders tend to use very complex diets, sometimes claiming it is a ketosis diet but they also carb load on a schedule to match some workouts. It is probably all over the map. In general a lot of body builders put a huge amount of effort into their diets. I don't think there would be many serious body builders on a pure LCHF ketosis diet.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.3 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.0 -
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young..
I fifured there was very limited research. In fact, there isnt nearly that much research when it comes to bulk... well not compared to losing weight.
I have no doubt that i can be done and i know there are several members on low carb and keto diets that have impressive results. But as noted, while it can be done, it may not be as effective or apply to as great of a population.
But ultimately you have to chose a method that supports ones goals. Some its just health.. others its more aesthetic and performance and others its powerlifting.
If you look at it logically, on keto you can't have too much protein in your diet, and some of that protein is going to get gluconeogenesis'd away. How much protein do people on keto usually take in? Probably less than the 0.8-1 gram per lbm optimum I guess.0 -
I eat a lot more protein now than i ever did on low carb/keto.0
-
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.
Kidney risks are not common on a nutritional ketosis diet. It is NOT a high protein diet. Most I know set protein around 20-25% of their total calories while ina deficit. For my deficit, set to 1420 kcal, my protein is set to 71g. That is not high. It would not be considered adequate for major muscle gains by many of the heavy lifters around here.
So by your logic, all North American diets are high in protein since they are all above average?
And you keep making up your own information and stating keto is high protein. That is simply incorrect. We don't eat more protein than the typical North American. Stop. Please. Educate yourself before you continue on with this. Please.2 -
stevencloser wrote: »
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young..
I fifured there was very limited research. In fact, there isnt nearly that much research when it comes to bulk... well not compared to losing weight.
I have no doubt that i can be done and i know there are several members on low carb and keto diets that have impressive results. But as noted, while it can be done, it may not be as effective or apply to as great of a population.
But ultimately you have to chose a method that supports ones goals. Some its just health.. others its more aesthetic and performance and others its powerlifting.
If you look at it logically, on keto you can't have too much protein in your diet, and some of that protein is going to get gluconeogenesis'd away. How much protein do people on keto usually take in? Probably less than the 0.8-1 gram per lbm optimum I guess.
And that is the ultimate question. Even if they are eating more protein that before, is it enough to sustain muscle mass.
At best, it will be muscle sparring but at worst it wont. And more importantly what are the goals of the individual.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I eat a lot more protein now than i ever did on low carb/keto.
How many grams are you eating? And are you doing provessive ovetload resistance training.0 -
I'm starting a keto diet today, but I am curious if there are signs for when one comes out of ketosis? For example, how does a person figure out the max carbs that are optimal not to go over? From what I understand carbs can halt the fat burning therefore stalling weight loss. Is this correct? Or is it simple CICO no matter what, and I will lose the same weight if I slip out of ketosis here and there?0
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I'm starting a keto diet today, but I am curious if there are signs for when one comes out of ketosis? For example, how does a person figure out the max carbs that are optimal not to go over? From what I understand carbs can halt the fat burning therefore stalling weight loss. Is this correct? Or is it simple CICO no matter what, and I will lose the same weight if I slip out of ketosis here and there?
Ketosis is not an on or off thing. There are various amounts of ketones being relied on. Anyone who fasts for 12 hours a day is making ketones at night. If you are eating fewer than about 130g of glucose you will be making some ketones, although not many. At below 50g of carbs per day, most people will being relying on ketones for some of their energy needs. Many of us ketofiles go to 20g of carbs so that we are mostly using ketones for energy (because we like the health effects) yet we can still enjoy some veggies. That's about 5% carbs for many people.
20-30g of carbs is a good starting point for many. You'll be in fairly deep ketosis within a day or two at that level. A sure thing.
If you want to test for ketosis there are ways. The cheapest is ketostix which test your urine. They give a rough idea of your ketone levels but some people stop spilling/urinating ketones after they have been on the diet a long time. Breath tests are very accurate but the most accurate (and expensive) is probably the blood ketone montitor.
Remember to up your sodium to 3000-5000 mg per day or you'll feel badly due to an electrolyte imbalance from the water weight lost.
Good luck. And maybe join us at the Low Carber Daily group where most of the ketofiles hang out.
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