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Disadvantages of Keto diet

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Replies

  • Posts: 6,412 Member
    @Hornsby The reason the wording bothered me is because he honed in on the "4oz" piece rather than the fact that I have lost 21 lbs of fat and managed to preserve muscle mass, even allowing for a margin of error inherent in all measuring devices short of autopsy. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I felt dismissed.
  • Posts: 10,322 Member
    @Hornsby The reason the wording bothered me is because he honed in on the "4oz" piece rather than the fact that I have lost 21 lbs of fat and managed to preserve muscle mass, even allowing for a margin of error inherent in all measuring devices short of autopsy. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I felt dismissed.

    I see. Well, I assumed you were replying in regards to the muscle gain discussion that was going on when you posted. I assume @FunkyTobias was thinking the same thing. Making that really the only thing worth discussing/rebutting. Whether the numbers are accurate or not doesn't change the fact that you are having great progress.
  • Posts: 6,412 Member
    @Hornsby Just curious, as I truly do not know...should I have expected to lose, maintain, or gain muscle mass during the loss of 21lbs? I am a 62 y.o. postmenopausal woman. I exercise 5 days a week and include resistance training in addtion to cardio. I want to start StrongLifts but have actually just started doing a kettle bell routine the last 2 weeks, so am going slow to be sure of technique and to avoid injury. I posted not to offer any opinion, but rather as a statement of fact. I didn't expect to invite ridicule, rather sorry now.
  • Posts: 38,438 MFP Moderator
    @Hornsby Just curious, as I truly do not know...should I have expected to lose, maintain, or gain muscle mass during the loss of 21lbs? I am a 62 y.o. postmenopausal woman. I exercise 5 days a week and include resistance training in addtion to cardio. I want to start StrongLifts but have actually just started doing a kettle bell routine the last 2 weeks, so am going slow to be sure of technique and to avoid injury. I posted not to offer any opinion, but rather as a statement of fact. I didn't expect to invite ridicule, rather sorry now.

    By doing resistance training and eating adequste protein, you should expect to minimize loss of lean body mass. If you actually gain is kind of irrelevant for the most part, as long as you are happy with your body and your progress.
  • Posts: 6,412 Member
    edited July 2016
    @psulemon I admit I actually expected to lose muscle mass as I lost weight and am pleased that I probably have not, or at least not much, even taking into account the inaccuracy of non-vivisection body analysis.

    Edited to clarify
  • Posts: 38,438 MFP Moderator
    @psulemon I admit I actually expected to lose muscle mass as I lost weight and am pleased that I probably have not, or at least not much, even taking into account the inaccuracy of non-vivisection body analysis.

    Edited to clarify

    Just keep it and ignore the rest.
  • Posts: 10,322 Member
    Obviously, you have a lot riding against you when it comes to building mass but if you were basically brand new to lifting I would think you are probably suffering minimal to 0 loss of lean mass. Another thing, that when we lift and use our muscles, they fill with water and become more efficient that which can make them feel fuller/harder which can translate to some as "bigger". Is it technically bigger, well is a sponge the same size when it's dry versus wet? Basically the same and somewhat debatable I guess. Add that transformation with the added fat loss and it can be very deceptive. There is a saying... "The fastest way to gain ten pounds of muscle is to lose ten pounds of fat". Kinda rambled. Sorry.
  • Posts: 6,412 Member
    edited July 2016
    @Hornsby Same exercise routine for a long time, weight loss is since April when I started logging. I am not talking about subjective perception of muscle mass. Done in internist's office.

    Edited to add - only new exercise has just been the last 2 weeks with beginner's kettle bell routine
  • Posts: 49,119 Member
    edited July 2016
    nvmomketo wrote: »

    I never said keto was faster for muscle building. Ever. I just said it can be done. Don't worry. Your carb loading is number 1 position is not being disputed. No need to defend that.

    Those pathways you are talking about are not shut off on a ketogenic diet. That would imply I have made no insulin, testosterone, IGF-1, or GH for the past 14 months because I ate below 20g of carbs per day for most of that time. It just isn't true.
    It doesn't say that you DON'T make hormones. It states that signal pathways and actual levels are different.
    Why do people do keto? So they can utilize fat as a primary source of energy right? Now tell me that if insulin was secreted at the same level as eating a meal with carbs will result in lypolysis effectively?
    In some people (like with testosterone in a woman with PCOS) the hormone production might be slowed. It isn't suddenly stopped when carbs are not eaten. Hormone uptake can increased on a LCHF diet. Sensitivity may be increased. Alternate fuel (ketones) can be used to signal some pathways.... It isn't full stop. Black or white.
    Didn't say it STOPPED. I stated it was reduced dramatically. Lower testosterone enough and the result is less chance of building any muscle, loss of libido, fatigue, etc.
    And yes, I am going with anecdotal evidence because there are no scientific peer reviewed studies on keto and body building. None. Nutritional ketogenic diets are just starting to gain in popularity. Myths surrounding it are slowly being debunked; we now know that keto adapted endurance athletes have higher VO2max, fat oxidation; lower lactate levels; and that muscle glycogen use and repletion patterns are the same for both the LCHF and higher carb athletes. Oh wait.... performance between the two groups were similar. I wonder how those long term keto adapted athletes got and mainatained those muscles?
    I posted them. The original print was done in Muscular Development (a leading bodybuilding magazine) in 2008.
    I thought I adressed the hormone levels needed for muscle. Yes, hormone levels matter. But how many bubbles do you need to wash your dishes?
    Well it's much more than than what's being received in a keto diet if hypertrophy isn't happening since the studies are stating it.
    Concerning the bolded, this was your initial link. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976 There is NOTHING about ketosis in this. Nothing. I don't see anything about hormones being tured off either.
    Not turned off, effectively reduced which is what I've stated all along. "Disrupted" doesn't mean "turned off". And yes while there's nothing on ketosis in the article, it's OBVIOUS the lowering of carbs reduces testosterone in the article. And of course the keto diet is the holy grail of carb deficiency, no?
    Nothing here either. http://www.nature.com/icb/journal/v78/n5/full/icb200076a.html Or here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21855365 Or here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091182
    This one gets close but it is a three day study. If they were eating at keto levels they were just starting to make ketones. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8495690

    If it is there, I am missing it.
    All of the articles show testosterone is lowered on low carb dieting. You don't see that?

    Just gotta say that this is something I've studied in detail (as well as done bulk, cuts, and contest prep diets with keto) since my 20's. Through Journals of Science nonetheless. So I believe this debate has run it's route. My intent was to show that if people wanted to add any significant (visual) muscle mass, the standard keto diet (no carb cycling) isn't the way to go about it.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • Posts: 800 Member
    edited July 2016
    Not a troll at all... I just find it humorous that people who do low carb are willing to admit that there might be more than one way to lose weight while those that don't agree with low carb are adament about CICO being the only thing that matters........WRONG..peoples bodies don't all work the same what about those that are insulin resistant..what about those with PCOS Like I said 1500 cals with carbs and walking no weight loss for over 3 months.....1500 cals with low carbs and walking the same amount weight loss....at least for me CICO isn't accurate....I think I will believe what my own body tells me over people on here who are all about CICO....you should be more open minded that there are different way to lose weight and that not the same thing will work for everyone....Bye!

    Wow, you have some chip on your shoulder. Frankly you are first low carb fan that I've seen claim that CICO doesn't matter. The general claim is the LCHF meal is more satisfying so fewer calories are consumed. Which I'm sure is true for many people. It actually sounds like you have an error in how you were counting calories or you are not really losing any fat. When a body shifts into ketosis, it burns through stores of glycogen which releases a lot of water. So there is normally a very rapid weight loss period which is mostly just water being lost. If you calorie level is high enough to sustain you, you might end up just maintaining your weight in ketosis. The initial weight loss will be gained back when the body has enough glucose to rebuild its glycogen stores.
  • Posts: 16,049 Member
    dykask wrote: »

    Wow, you have some chip on your shoulder. Frankly you are first low carb fan that I've seen claim that CICO doesn't matter. The general claim is the LCHF meal is more satisfying so fewer calories are consumed. Which I'm sure is true for many people. It actually sounds like you have an error in how you were counting calories or you are not really losing any fat. When a body shifts into ketosis, it burns through stores of glycogen which releases a lot of water. So there is normally a very rapid weight loss period which is mostly just water being lost. If you calorie level is high enough to sustain you, you might end up just maintaining your weight in ketosis. The initial weight loss will be gained back when the body has enough glucose to rebuild its glycogen stores.

    I think maybe when people say CICO doesn't work, they may mean that eating the "SAD" doesn't work for them, or that eating a diet with high carbs makes it hard for them to stay in a deficit and therefore makes it impossible to lose weight because they over eat. Some people also think CICO is a way of eating, like an eating plan or something. Just guessing here..
  • Posts: 38,438 MFP Moderator

    I think maybe when people say CICO doesn't work, they may mean that eating the "SAD" doesn't work for them, or that eating a diet with high carbs makes it hard for them to stay in a deficit and therefore makes it impossible to lose weight because they over eat. Some people also think CICO is a way of eating, like an eating plan or something. Just guessing here..

    Typically i hear people say CICO doesnt work, tend to be new to this or some way of eating and don't realize its an energy balance equation.

  • Posts: 800 Member
    psulemon wrote: »

    Typically i hear people say CICO doesnt work, tend to be new to this or some way of eating and don't realize its an energy balance equation.

    That makes sense.
  • Posts: 16,049 Member
    psulemon wrote: »

    Typically i hear people say CICO doesnt work, tend to be new to this or some way of eating and don't realize its an energy balance equation.

    Yep you said it better :lol:
  • Posts: 778 Member
    This debate has been so enlightening. I always wondered that why even have carbs if they are so horrible and what not (ketogenic followers) but it clearly goes to show (from my understanding so far from the thread ) that it'll be a very productive way to build muscle mass if carbs were consumed with proper resistance training (obviously).

    Just fyi this would've never happened in the locked LCHF forum. It's good to have an open policy so other side can be heard.

    P.S FYI - what the heck -my comment got deleted because I asked someone if they were trolling. It was a question not an attack SMH
  • Posts: 3,171 Member
    viren19890 wrote: »
    This debate has been so enlightening. I always wondered that why even have carbs if they are so horrible and what not (ketogenic followers) but it clearly goes to show (from my understanding so far from the thread ) that it'll be a very productive way to build muscle mass if carbs were consumed with proper resistance training (obviously).

    Just fyi this would've never happened in the locked LCHF forum. It's good to have an open policy so other side can be heard.

    P.S FYI - what the heck -my comment got deleted because I asked someone if they were trolling. It was a question not an attack SMH

    Of course not. No one in the LCD forum is ignorant enough to insist you can't build muscle mass eating a low carb diet.
  • Posts: 12,019 Member
    :D
    dykask wrote: »

    Wow, you have some chip on your shoulder. Frankly you are first low carb fan that I've seen claim that CICO doesn't matter. The general claim is the LCHF meal is more satisfying so fewer calories are consumed. Which I'm sure is true for many people. It actually sounds like you have an error in how you were counting calories or you are not really losing any fat. When a body shifts into ketosis, it burns through stores of glycogen which releases a lot of water. So there is normally a very rapid weight loss period which is mostly just water being lost. If you calorie level is high enough to sustain you, you might end up just maintaining your weight in ketosis. The initial weight loss will be gained back when the body has enough glucose to rebuild its glycogen stores.

    I think maybe when people say CICO doesn't work, they may mean that eating the "SAD" doesn't work for them, or that eating a diet with high carbs makes it hard for them to stay in a deficit and therefore makes it impossible to lose weight because they over eat. Some people also think CICO is a way of eating, like an eating plan or something. Just guessing here..

    I think some who say CICO doesn't work may mean that the calculated TDEE did not work for them because it did not take into account health, food choices and subsequent hormal reactions.

    I am another who found I "magically" lost more weight than expected on keto. I set my calories to 1420kcal per day when I was close to 190 lbs at 5'8". I was a completely sedentary SAHM who got a bit of exercise a couple of times per week coaching kids' sports. Barely enough to break a prolonged sweat.

    That 1420kcal was set for me to lose about 1.5 lbs per week. Agressive but not too much.

    Instead i lost 2-3 lbs on most weeks. I lost over 10 lbs per month for the first 3 months, and then in the 4th month I lost 5 lbs to hit the middle of my BMI and a size 8.

    And I was eating over 1420 kcal per day. I averaged out my calories over the first three months and it was 1500kcal.

    The calculated CI<CO didn't work for me. It should have taken months longer to lose my weight, and perhaps it would have if I hadn't changed my diet.

    Before changing to keto, I could lose on 1500 per day but it wasn't that much, and I could not maintain it more than a couple of weeks due to hunger (partially due to reactive hypoglycemia symptoms). I lost slower and couldn't keep it going... Some people might say CICO didn't work for me there, but a more accurate statement would be "moderation" didn't work for me.

    JMO
  • Posts: 12,019 Member
    psulemon wrote: »

    Typically i hear people say CICO doesnt work, tend to be new to this or some way of eating and don't realize its an energy balance equation.

    Oops. Just saw this. More succinct than my reply was. :)
  • Posts: 194 Member
    Keto is a very hard diet on your liver and kidneys. If you have problems with them you can die. This is not a diet for long term diet, prolonged keto diet(months or so) can damage your kidneys and liver very hard. thats why they are urine tests to measure level of ketones in blood. If i remember correctly when they turn black the level of ketones is critical.
  • Posts: 16,049 Member
    kimondo666 wrote: »
    Keto is a very hard diet on your liver and kidneys. If you have problems with them you can die. This is not a diet for long term diet, prolonged keto diet(months or so) can damage your kidneys and liver very hard. thats why they are urine tests to measure level of ketones in blood. If i remember correctly when they turn black the level of ketones is critical.

    But there are people who have been doing keto for years that are healthy and have never experienced any health problems..
  • Posts: 12,019 Member
    It really isn't hard on the kidneys or liver. How could a higher fat diet be harmful to them in any way? Sure those with gall bladder issues may have to tweak their ketogenic diet more than most but liver and kidneys? Nah.
  • Posts: 6,412 Member
    @kimondo666 Is it possible you are confusing ketoacidosis and nutritional ketosis? It is a very easy thing to do, lots of people mix those two up.,,
  • Posts: 800 Member
    edited July 2016
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    :D
    I think some who say CICO doesn't work may mean that the calculated TDEE did not work for them because it did not take into account health, food choices and subsequent hormal reactions.

    I am another who found I "magically" lost more weight than expected on keto. I set my calories to 1420kcal per day when I was close to 190 lbs at 5'8". I was a completely sedentary SAHM who got a bit of exercise a couple of times per week coaching kids' sports. Barely enough to break a prolonged sweat.

    That 1420kcal was set for me to lose about 1.5 lbs per week. Agressive but not too much.

    Instead i lost 2-3 lbs on most weeks. I lost over 10 lbs per month for the first 3 months, and then in the 4th month I lost 5 lbs to hit the middle of my BMI and a size 8.

    And I was eating over 1420 kcal per day. I averaged out my calories over the first three months and it was 1500kcal.

    The calculated CI<CO didn't work for me. It should have taken months longer to lose my weight, and perhaps it would have if I hadn't changed my diet.

    Before changing to keto, I could lose on 1500 per day but it wasn't that much, and I could not maintain it more than a couple of weeks due to hunger (partially due to reactive hypoglycemia symptoms). I lost slower and couldn't keep it going... Some people might say CICO didn't work for me there, but a more accurate statement would be "moderation" didn't work for me.

    JMO

    I glad you have figured out something that controls your hunger, running a 1000 kc / deficit is very aggressive in my book. Assuming you are still on the keto diet, once you go off of it you will add some weight (mostly water) back. I think that is a disadvantage of ketosis diets, the initial weight loss is temporary. (Loss of glycogen that the body will replace as soon as it can.)
  • Posts: 6,412 Member
    @dykask - I know this wasn't directed to me, but wanted to comment & ask you a question.

    I notice a rapid water weight gain if eat more carbs than usual over 2-3 days, which is disheartening, but I do know about the water weight thing. The water weight comes off again once I am back on low-"ish" carb again. I suspect my low carb is not as low as some people; I usually eat about 50-55g net carbs most days, which I find sustainable unless someone else is cooking for me (another disadvantage of LCHF).

    Do you know if there is a compelling reason to "go off" a keto diet other than by choice? (I have a bit of insulin resistance and was planning to continue on a lower carb diet as a permanent way of eating, rather than as a temporary "diet".)
  • Posts: 800 Member
    edited July 2016
    @dykask - I know this wasn't directed to me, but wanted to comment & ask you a question.

    I notice a rapid water weight gain if eat more carbs than usual over 2-3 days, which is disheartening, but I do know about the water weight thing. The water weight comes off again once I am back on low-"ish" carb again. I suspect my low carb is not as low as some people; I usually eat about 50-55g net carbs most days, which I find sustainable unless someone else is cooking for me (another disadvantage of LCHF).

    Do you know if there is a compelling reason to "go off" a keto diet other than by choice? (I have a bit of insulin resistance and was planning to continue on a lower carb diet as a permanent way of eating, rather than as a temporary "diet".)

    There are people that eat low carb for years. If it works and people are okay with it, more power to them I guess.

    It probably would be good to see a doctor once in a while, to make sure everything is fine and going well. But we should all be doing that anyways. The human body can probably handle a wide range of foods as long as the diet is reasonable.
  • Posts: 12,019 Member
    dykask wrote: »

    I glad you have figured out something that controls your hunger, running a 1000 kc / deficit is very aggressive in my book. Assuming you are still on the keto diet, once you go off of it you will add some weight (mostly water) back. I think that is a disadvantage of ketosis diets, the initial weight loss is temporary. (Loss of glycogen that the body will replace as soon as it can.)

    I wasn't on a 1000kcal per day deficit. I was on aboy a 700kcal deficit but I ate close to an extra 100kcal per day. So a 600kcal per day deficit. Supposedly. 600kcal X 7 days per week equals 4200kcal deficit per week. Since a pound is 3500kcal, I should have been losing close to 1.5 lbs per week instead of double that.

    I'm a sedentary middle aged woman who lost the equivalent of 3 lbs of fat per week. In order to do that I should have been eating a 1500kcal deficit on a daily basis. That would put my TDEE at close to 3000kcal. THAT is where the calculated CICO did not work for me. There is no way that is right. And I weighed my food so that wasn't it.

    And yes, most people regain the lost water weight if they go back to higher carb. It's only a couple of pounds, and just water, so I'm hoping that most people wouldn't care.

    But I don't plan on ever going back to high or moderate carb. The foods aren't worth the health benefits that I would lose.
  • Posts: 6,412 Member
    edited July 2016
    @nvmomketo I know you have probably posted this, but what are your net carb grams?
  • Posts: 38,438 MFP Moderator
    @nvmomketo how much weight have you lost in the past month?
  • Posts: 12,019 Member
    edited July 2016
    @nvmomketo I know you have probably posted this, but what are your net grams?

    @KetoneKaren For losing it was set at 1420 kcal they are 18g carbs (5%), 118g fat (75%) and 71g protein (20%). Net carbs? I don't know. Maybe half or two thrids of my total carbs. It's all from veggies, nuts, and whatever there is in eggs.

    I am not often trying to lose anymore so I usually eat a good 500-1000 kcal more now but the percentages are probably about the same. I guessing my carbs are now maybe 20-30g, fat is 120-140g, and protein is around 80g... Just a guess.
    psulemon wrote: »
    @nvmomketo how much weight have you lost in the past month?
    Not much. My weight bounced up with an autoimmune issue, and as it resolves I am slowly cutting back a bit on my foods. Probably close to 2000kcal. I am down a pond or two this month.

    ETA I am at a good weight now. About a size 10.
  • Posts: 6,412 Member
    @nvmomketo Do you have any trouble sustaining that level of carbs? (I guess you must not). The only thing I resent about LCHF is that I get petulant about limiting root vegetables. I like beets and carrots and parsnips. I also like edamame. I can live without bread and rice and pasta, they just give me heartburn anyway, but I get a bit pi$$y about limiting the others. I have settled on a higher carb intake as you know, having most of my carb intake in the evening so I stay relatively ketotic during the day. It's easy for me to eat mostly protein & fat for breakfast and lunch. Sorry if that's boring.
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