Disadvantages of Keto diet
Replies
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http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.0 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
I don't purposefully aim to eat high protein, it's just the foods i gravitate toward are usually high in protein.0 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
What was your starting weight and current?
Also, simple question. For someone like me who eats 4K calories per day, what should my macros be in your opinion? I lift 2 hours a day, 6 days a week and do cardio for about 4-7 hours per week (cycling). I'm 6', 178lbs, 7% body fat.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.
Kidney risks are not common on a nutritional ketosis diet. It is NOT a high protein diet. Most I know set protein around 20-25% of their total calories while ina deficit. For my deficit, set to 1420 kcal, my protein is set to 71g. That is not high. It would not be considered adequate for major muscle gains by many of the heavy lifters around here.
So by your logic, all North American diets are high in protein since they are all above average?
And you keep making up your own information and stating keto is high protein. That is simply incorrect. We don't eat more protein than the typical North American. Stop. Please. Educate yourself before you continue on with this. Please.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
I don't think it's all that hard to get more than half your calories from fat. Certainly not as hard as you are making it out to be. And mayo certainly is not required, lol. Just eating fattier cuts of meat (think rib eye instead of sirloin, pork shoulder instead of loin, chicken thighs with the skin instead of boneless skinless breasts, salmon instead of tilapia, etc), eating whole eggs (don't toss the yolks), switching to full fat dairy (whole milk, real cream, real cheese, full fat yogurt, real sour cream, etc), not being afraid of seeds and nuts, and using butter and full fat dressings on your veggies and salads, and viola! You're most of the way there. You don't need to eat "greasy" foods, which in my experience are mostly fried foods, which would be breaded and therefore a no go (plus the frying medium is usually some kind of rancid oil, which is also a no go on most low carb plans).
I'm not sure why you think it's "natural" to be so fat phobic. LC and keto are not high protein. I'm standard low carb and I get about 20-30% of cals from protein. Not really high.
4 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
Protrein is also highly studied and there are tons of studies to back up my claims.
Btw, how are you measuring muscle gained?4 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.
Kidney risks are not common on a nutritional ketosis diet. It is NOT a high protein diet. Most I know set protein around 20-25% of their total calories while ina deficit. For my deficit, set to 1420 kcal, my protein is set to 71g. That is not high. It would not be considered adequate for major muscle gains by many of the heavy lifters around here.
So by your logic, all North American diets are high in protein since they are all above average?
And you keep making up your own information and stating keto is high protein. That is simply incorrect. We don't eat more protein than the typical North American. Stop. Please. Educate yourself before you continue on with this. Please.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
I'm not sure why you think it's "natural" to be so fat phobic. LC and keto are not high protein. I'm standard low carb and I get about 20-30% of cals from protein. Not really high.
It could be a symptom of the fat phobic 80's?? I love fatty foods too, but not the drenched in grease rancid oil type fats, and yes I love mayo especially hellmans, nuts, seeds, avocados, cream, butter, the list of healthy fats is endless.
2 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
What was your starting weight and current?
Also, simple question. For someone like me who eats 4K calories per day, what should my macros be in your opinion? I lift 2 hours a day, 6 days a week and do cardio for about 4-7 hours per week (cycling). I'm 6', 178lbs, 7% body fat.
My starting weight was 94 kg and now I'm at 90.4 kg this morning. (~200 pounds)
To be honest I haven't put a lot of thought into macros, I only know mine because the food dairy tracks them. However I often see a lot of Japanese men doing body weight calisthenics that are pretty amazing. In general the Japanese diet is much lower in protein than say a US diet. (Heavier in booze though which kind of wipes out a lot of the healthy stuff, but I don't drink it.) I workout about 12 hours a week, but seven of those is just walking up stairs and general walking, not very serious but it is before breakfast.
As for you ... you are working out a huge amount, 12 hours of lifting a week alone! That is why you can eat 4000 kc a day. However as long as you avoid a lot of added sugar which could mess things up, with that much food I think you could eat whatever you want. I think you said you eat 350 grams of protein a day, probably way more than you need but hey at 7% body fat your diet is working. My son is 9.5% body fat and that is very lean. I'm currently a hefty 20.5% ... but 4 years ago I was 106 kg and way over 30% body fat.
1 -
Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.
No you're not.TrailNurse wrote: »I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.
Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth
Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.
During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.
KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.
HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.
In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.
By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.
References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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No you're not? Really?
I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.
Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/
I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
You have a misunderstanding of how muscle growth works then. Progressive overload resistance is how one gains muscle. And of course if one is gaining quite a bit, body weight is going to increase due to increase in mass.stevencloser wrote: »
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young..
I fifured there was very limited research. In fact, there isnt nearly that much research when it comes to bulk... well not compared to losing weight.
I have no doubt that i can be done and i know there are several members on low carb and keto diets that have impressive results. But as noted, while it can be done, it may not be as effective or apply to as great of a population.
But ultimately you have to chose a method that supports ones goals. Some its just health.. others its more aesthetic and performance and others its powerlifting.
If you look at it logically, on keto you can't have too much protein in your diet, and some of that protein is going to get gluconeogenesis'd away. How much protein do people on keto usually take in? Probably less than the 0.8-1 gram per lbm optimum I guess.
And that is the ultimate question. Even if they are eating more protein that before, is it enough to sustain muscle mass.
At best, it will be muscle sparring but at worst it wont. And more importantly what are the goals of the individual.
I started walking 30-90 minutes per day at the fastest pace I can handle about 2 months ago. I can physically feel the muscles that have grown in my legs. The shape is different (yes I am in poor shape). I'm also doing regular push-up becaues I am in a push-up challenge with a teenaged friend. Muscle gains there too. This at around 70g of protein per day.
It's not just muscle sparing. People can grow muscles without excess carb consumption.
Also in you're in keto, all protein isn't used for muscle building. If energy expenditure is high, then a good amount of that protein is used for energy, which of course reduces the amount of protein used for actually building (not rebuilding) muscle.
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2 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
Protrein is also highly studied and there are tons of studies to back up my claims.
Btw, how are you measuring muscle gained?
I use bio-impedance to measure muscle mass but that requires one to be pretty controlled in how they take the measurement. I confirm my measurements by testing my strength. For example doing dips until exhaustion. But a lot of different exercises across muscle groups has to be used. For me my strength is continuing to gain. I work out about 12 hours a week so it is easy for me to track if I'm gaining or losing. The 3rd check is measurements, I use and electrical measure to make it easy, I just have to worry about positioning the tape correctly. (Measuring shoulders or upper arms is hard enough without having also read the tape.) I guess a forth that I don't really depend on is the mirror. I'm developing more of a V shape and at least I can see where my abs are, but still too much fat to see anything clearly. (However a good part of that is fat loss in the middle.)
The actual percent of muscle could be off by a constant amount, the relative difference should be good. For me I'm consistently measuring 2% higher than when I started. I actually expected to lose some muscle and I was okay with that but it is running different this time. However a couple points, 2200 kc is well above my BMR so I'm not really starving myself and I'm not getting very many calories from added sugars. I do eat a good amount of fruit though. I think cutting foods with lots of added sugar as greatly helped me. Still 2 pounds of muscle gain in 10 weeks isn't any kind of speed record, it is pretty slow.
Oh I forgot to mention, I do work some HIIT into workouts. That helps a lot with building strength. Also this is the scale I use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001803OS6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It is a pretty good mid-range device.0 -
Bio impedance is one of the least accurate ways to measure muscle/fat ratio. Just how much water you retain in your body throws it off by up to 5%.http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
Protrein is also highly studied and there are tons of studies to back up my claims.
Btw, how are you measuring muscle gained?
I use bio-impedance to measure muscle mass but that requires one to be pretty controlled in how they take the measurement.
Gaining strength doesn't equate to gaining muscle. On any strength program, a person can increase their strength progressively for quite some time without adding muscle. It's referred to as Neuromuscular Adaptation.I confirm my measurements by testing my strength. For example doing dips until exhaustion. But a lot of different exercises across muscle groups has to be used. For me my strength is continuing to gain. I work out about 12 hours a week so it is easy for me to track if I'm gaining or losing.
Not uncommon to gain some girth in any part of the body immediately, on a lifting program due to the fact that body loads up on glycogen and water storage.The 3rd check is measurements, I use and electrical measure to make it easy, I just have to worry about positioning the tape correctly. (Measuring shoulders or upper arms is hard enough without having also read the tape.)
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Bio impedance is one of the least accurate ways to measure muscle/fat ratio. Just how much water you retain in your body throws it off by up to 5%.http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
Protrein is also highly studied and there are tons of studies to back up my claims.
Btw, how are you measuring muscle gained?
I use bio-impedance to measure muscle mass but that requires one to be pretty controlled in how they take the measurement.
Gaining strength doesn't equate to gaining muscle. On any strength program, a person can increase their strength progressively for quite some time without adding muscle. It's referred to as Neuromuscular Adaptation.I confirm my measurements by testing my strength. For example doing dips until exhaustion. But a lot of different exercises across muscle groups has to be used. For me my strength is continuing to gain. I work out about 12 hours a week so it is easy for me to track if I'm gaining or losing.
Not uncommon to gain some girth in any part of the body immediately, on a lifting program due to the fact that body loads up on glycogen and water storage.The 3rd check is measurements, I use and electrical measure to make it easy, I just have to worry about positioning the tape correctly. (Measuring shoulders or upper arms is hard enough without having also read the tape.)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Bio impedance works very well if one is consistent in how they use it. And the type is strength gains I've had don't happen without more muscle mass. I'm not new to this, I've been working out consistently for 4 years and before I had children I worked out consistently for more than a decade. I also know very well when I've stressed my muscles and when I haven't. When you are breaking down muscle fiber it doesn't happen with out a good amount of soreness.
The measurements I use are rock solid as far as consistency goes. There likely is a constant offset but the delta is good. My numbers have changed slowly and consistently. I also understand very well how impedance works and my background is electrical engineering.0 -
Bio impedance is one of the least accurate ways to measure muscle/fat ratio. Just how much water you retain in your body throws it off by up to 5%.http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
Protrein is also highly studied and there are tons of studies to back up my claims.
Btw, how are you measuring muscle gained?
I use bio-impedance to measure muscle mass but that requires one to be pretty controlled in how they take the measurement.
Gaining strength doesn't equate to gaining muscle. On any strength program, a person can increase their strength progressively for quite some time without adding muscle. It's referred to as Neuromuscular Adaptation.I confirm my measurements by testing my strength. For example doing dips until exhaustion. But a lot of different exercises across muscle groups has to be used. For me my strength is continuing to gain. I work out about 12 hours a week so it is easy for me to track if I'm gaining or losing.
Not uncommon to gain some girth in any part of the body immediately, on a lifting program due to the fact that body loads up on glycogen and water storage.The 3rd check is measurements, I use and electrical measure to make it easy, I just have to worry about positioning the tape correctly. (Measuring shoulders or upper arms is hard enough without having also read the tape.)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Bio impedance works very well if one is consistent in how they use it. And the type is strength gains I've had don't happen without more muscle mass. I'm not new to this, I've been working out consistently for 4 years and before I had children I worked out consistently for more than a decade. I also know very well when I've stressed my muscles and when I haven't. When you are breaking down muscle fiber it doesn't happen with out a good amount of soreness.
The measurements I use are rock solid as far as consistency goes. There likely is a constant offset but the delta is good. My numbers have changed slowly and consistently. I also understand very well how impedance works and my background is electrical engineering.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21555168 is a study that shows for middle aged adults bio impedance works particularly well for measuring lean body mass and also works well body fat measurement but with a wider error range. Like all tools if you don't use it correctly you don't get the expected results.
I've seen absurd statements on MFP, like measure yourself eat a meal and measure yourself again and you get different results. Of coarse you get different results because the food and drink change your body weight so the percent that is fat and muscle is lower.
Also I think a lot of people judge bio impedance on really cheap scales that are little more than toys. You need to get a real scale that uses both hands and feet and measures with multiple frequencies.
One of the disadvantages of a KETO diet is most of the rapid initial weight loss is just water and that will return as carbs are eaten again. That also causes confusion with tools like bio impedance because it is a major change in hydration.0 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
Protrein is also highly studied and there are tons of studies to back up my claims.
Btw, how are you measuring muscle gained?
I use bio-impedance to measure muscle mass but that requires one to be pretty controlled in how they take the measurement. I confirm my measurements by testing my strength. For example doing dips until exhaustion. But a lot of different exercises across muscle groups has to be used. For me my strength is continuing to gain. I work out about 12 hours a week so it is easy for me to track if I'm gaining or losing. The 3rd check is measurements, I use and electrical measure to make it easy, I just have to worry about positioning the tape correctly. (Measuring shoulders or upper arms is hard enough without having also read the tape.) I guess a forth that I don't really depend on is the mirror. I'm developing more of a V shape and at least I can see where my abs are, but still too much fat to see anything clearly. (However a good part of that is fat loss in the middle.)
The actual percent of muscle could be off by a constant amount, the relative difference should be good. For me I'm consistently measuring 2% higher than when I started. I actually expected to lose some muscle and I was okay with that but it is running different this time. However a couple points, 2200 kc is well above my BMR so I'm not really starving myself and I'm not getting very many calories from added sugars. I do eat a good amount of fruit though. I think cutting foods with lots of added sugar as greatly helped me. Still 2 pounds of muscle gain in 10 weeks isn't any kind of speed record, it is pretty slow.
Oh I forgot to mention, I do work some HIIT into workouts. That helps a lot with building strength. Also this is the scale I use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001803OS6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It is a pretty good mid-range device.
BIA is useless.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-4-the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-parts-3-and-4-bod-pod-and-bioelectrical-impedance-bia/the-pitfalls-of-bodyfat-measurement-part-4-bioelectrical-impedance-bia/&ved=0ahUKEwiJge2O0O3NAhWEPz4KHbn-ASIQFggdMAE&usg=AFQjCNFM119wr470saMz0mVy_0kne3TqZg&sig2=0wpHujRmZaYfzMX9LtWqmA
Edited url0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
Protrein is also highly studied and there are tons of studies to back up my claims.
Btw, how are you measuring muscle gained?
I use bio-impedance to measure muscle mass but that requires one to be pretty controlled in how they take the measurement. I confirm my measurements by testing my strength. For example doing dips until exhaustion. But a lot of different exercises across muscle groups has to be used. For me my strength is continuing to gain. I work out about 12 hours a week so it is easy for me to track if I'm gaining or losing. The 3rd check is measurements, I use and electrical measure to make it easy, I just have to worry about positioning the tape correctly. (Measuring shoulders or upper arms is hard enough without having also read the tape.) I guess a forth that I don't really depend on is the mirror. I'm developing more of a V shape and at least I can see where my abs are, but still too much fat to see anything clearly. (However a good part of that is fat loss in the middle.)
The actual percent of muscle could be off by a constant amount, the relative difference should be good. For me I'm consistently measuring 2% higher than when I started. I actually expected to lose some muscle and I was okay with that but it is running different this time. However a couple points, 2200 kc is well above my BMR so I'm not really starving myself and I'm not getting very many calories from added sugars. I do eat a good amount of fruit though. I think cutting foods with lots of added sugar as greatly helped me. Still 2 pounds of muscle gain in 10 weeks isn't any kind of speed record, it is pretty slow.
Oh I forgot to mention, I do work some HIIT into workouts. That helps a lot with building strength. Also this is the scale I use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001803OS6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It is a pretty good mid-range device.
BIA is useless.
http://py/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-4-the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-parts-3-and-4-bod-pod-and-bioelectrical-impedance-bia/the-pitfalls-of-bodyfat-measurement-part-4-bioelectrical-impedance-bia/
Not even a working link.
Years ago there were a lot of really poor BIA devices. The technology has improved to the point where it is quite reasonable. There is still a lot of junk out there are even more people that refuse to learn how to use it correctly.0 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
What was your starting weight and current?
Also, simple question. For someone like me who eats 4K calories per day, what should my macros be in your opinion? I lift 2 hours a day, 6 days a week and do cardio for about 4-7 hours per week (cycling). I'm 6', 178lbs, 7% body fat.
My starting weight was 94 kg and now I'm at 90.4 kg this morning. (~200 pounds)
To be honest I haven't put a lot of thought into macros, I only know mine because the food dairy tracks them. However I often see a lot of Japanese men doing body weight calisthenics that are pretty amazing. In general the Japanese diet is much lower in protein than say a US diet. (Heavier in booze though which kind of wipes out a lot of the healthy stuff, but I don't drink it.) I workout about 12 hours a week, but seven of those is just walking up stairs and general walking, not very serious but it is before breakfast.
As for you ... you are working out a huge amount, 12 hours of lifting a week alone! That is why you can eat 4000 kc a day. However as long as you avoid a lot of added sugar which could mess things up, with that much food I think you could eat whatever you want. I think you said you eat 350 grams of protein a day, probably way more than you need but hey at 7% body fat your diet is working. My son is 9.5% body fat and that is very lean. I'm currently a hefty 20.5% ... but 4 years ago I was 106 kg and way over 30% body fat.
No, I don't eat 350 gr per day. I eat 175. The reason I asked is because you are against too much fat as well which I'm not sure what too much is to you but if I eat say 100 grams of fat and 175 gr of protein, that leaves me with 2500 calories for carbs. That's a lot of carbs. Even for me. But some say don't eat too many carbs. Don't eat added sugars. It all gets confusing for a guy who just practices a flexible diet. That's all. Luckily, you are right and I have it figured out and it's been working for a few years.
And as an aside, I had stepped on a BIA scale and it told me 25% BF and 5 seconds later it showed 13%, and 5 seconds after that showed 17%. The this was an expensive unit at my dietitian's office. Moral of the story is BIA scales are just as meaningless as no scale at all.3 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
What was your starting weight and current?
Also, simple question. For someone like me who eats 4K calories per day, what should my macros be in your opinion? I lift 2 hours a day, 6 days a week and do cardio for about 4-7 hours per week (cycling). I'm 6', 178lbs, 7% body fat.
My starting weight was 94 kg and now I'm at 90.4 kg this morning. (~200 pounds)
To be honest I haven't put a lot of thought into macros, I only know mine because the food dairy tracks them. However I often see a lot of Japanese men doing body weight calisthenics that are pretty amazing. In general the Japanese diet is much lower in protein than say a US diet. (Heavier in booze though which kind of wipes out a lot of the healthy stuff, but I don't drink it.) I workout about 12 hours a week, but seven of those is just walking up stairs and general walking, not very serious but it is before breakfast.
As for you ... you are working out a huge amount, 12 hours of lifting a week alone! That is why you can eat 4000 kc a day. However as long as you avoid a lot of added sugar which could mess things up, with that much food I think you could eat whatever you want. I think you said you eat 350 grams of protein a day, probably way more than you need but hey at 7% body fat your diet is working. My son is 9.5% body fat and that is very lean. I'm currently a hefty 20.5% ... but 4 years ago I was 106 kg and way over 30% body fat.
No, I don't eat 350 gr per day. I eat 175. The reason I asked is because you are against too much fat as well which I'm not sure what too much is to you but if I eat say 100 grams of fat and 175 gr of protein, that leaves me with 2500 calories for carbs. That's a lot of carbs. Even for me. But some say don't eat too many carbs. Don't eat added sugars. It all gets confusing for a guy who just practices a flexible diet. That's all. Luckily, you are right and I have it figured out and it's been working for a few years.
And as an aside, I had stepped on a BIA scale and it told me 25% BF and 5 seconds later it showed 13%, and 5 seconds after that showed 17%. The this was an expensive unit at my dietitian's office. Moral of the story is BIA scales are just as meaningless as no scale at all.
I'm not against fat, but I do think that trying to consume over half of your calories from fat may not actually be safe. All we know about fat consumption is cutting from 40% of the diet to 30% or less doesn't help with heart disease. We really don't know what happens long term to the people getting > 70% of their calories from fat.
Same with sugar, I don't have any major issues with some sugar, but now many are getting 20% or much more of their calories from added sugars. That is crazy.
I'm all for flexible diets. They work and tend to work for years.
Your experience with a BIA scale is not normal. Something was clearly wrong, the technology though is sound. I've been taking daily readings for months and I only see very small variations from day to day, a difference of 0.2% is large for total body fat %. The scale you used may have been showing readings for different types of fat. For example mine gives me a reading for overall fat % and visceral fat %, however you have push buttons to see either. Seems likely either the scale was broken or you didn't know how to use it or maybe it needed new batteries. More expensive scales might require reading a pages of documentation to know what is going on. My scale has multiple usage modes and you have to extend your arms while holding the hand unit while it is measuring body fat. Some readings like visceral fat % do jump by 1% some days because it is only displayed in a whole number. For example it is currently reading 13% but more and more I see 12%. Part of that is probably error and part is because weight moves around from day to day. On a heavy day the visceral fat % is much more likely to be 12%. As I continue to lose fat the 12% will become constant. Moral of the story is using a random scale you don't know about at a random time is probably useless.
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Yes, this was my dietitian's scale and she knew how to use it. It wasn't a random scale. It didn't take batteries. I know how they work and the numbers they spit out. A BIA scale might show you a trend, but the numbers it spits out aren't accurate so the trend is of little importance in my opinion.
If you feel like you've added muscle mass though, I'd say carry on as I do believe in the power of the placebo.1 -
Again, accuracy on this is based on water in the body. Unless you know how much water is actually in your body at any given time, the reading is just a reflection of electrical resistance of what may be perceived as fat tissue.
Bio impedance is one of the least accurate ways to measure muscle/fat ratio. Just how much water you retain in your body throws it off by up to 5%.http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
Protrein is also highly studied and there are tons of studies to back up my claims.
Btw, how are you measuring muscle gained?
I use bio-impedance to measure muscle mass but that requires one to be pretty controlled in how they take the measurement.
Gaining strength doesn't equate to gaining muscle. On any strength program, a person can increase their strength progressively for quite some time without adding muscle. It's referred to as Neuromuscular Adaptation.I confirm my measurements by testing my strength. For example doing dips until exhaustion. But a lot of different exercises across muscle groups has to be used. For me my strength is continuing to gain. I work out about 12 hours a week so it is easy for me to track if I'm gaining or losing.
Not uncommon to gain some girth in any part of the body immediately, on a lifting program due to the fact that body loads up on glycogen and water storage.The 3rd check is measurements, I use and electrical measure to make it easy, I just have to worry about positioning the tape correctly. (Measuring shoulders or upper arms is hard enough without having also read the tape.)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Bio impedance works very well if one is consistent in how they use it.
Anecdotal. Strength gains will differ from person to person and many many people can gain quite a bit of strength without adding muscle. Power lifters do it all the time due to competing in weight categories.And the type is strength gains I've had don't happen without more muscle mass. I'm not new to this, I've been working out consistently for 4 years and before I had children I worked out consistently for more than a decade.
Yes, but just because one's sore doesn't mean one is building (hypertrophy) muscle. Soreness is an indication of muscle breakdown, but recovery and rebuild will always come first before any hypertrophy. I get sore basically every week training, but I know I'm not putting on any muscle mass.I also know very well when I've stressed my muscles and when I haven't. When you are breaking down muscle fiber it doesn't happen with out a good amount of soreness.
Lol, that's like saying "I'm a cop, so I know how court room law works".The measurements I use are rock solid as far as consistency goes. There likely is a constant offset but the delta is good. My numbers have changed slowly and consistently. I also understand very well how impedance works and my background is electrical engineering.
Also, you've never addressed on the hormonal signalling issues with mTOR and IGF-1 on the previous. You posted a link, but it didn't address it. So again, your opinion on building muscle on keto is anecdotal unless you have something to show that there's a study showing keto DOES offer enough hormonal response for hypertrophy.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 3 -
I love eating a keto diet. It really helps me with making healthy food choices, controlling portions, and staying in a good calorie range. Nothing has been more effective for me for weight loss and food control. It is harder to do high intensity working out without the carbs. Also, I take potassium supplements for leg cramp reduction. I think the feeling tired in the beginning can vary in length depending on how you were eating before, for me it was not more than one week. I know keto eating is not right for everyone, and some people will say not to do it just stay in your cal range. But it seems i do SOOOOO much better staying in the recommended calorie range (without even trying) when I follow a keto diet. So, in the end we accomplish similar things.
I think it depends on what kind of food issues you have and if you are trying to build a bunch of muscle mass. For me I was trying to loose body fat and tone up, but not be super muscular. So it works very well for me.2 -
Well let's look at what is said:
Bio impedance is one of the least accurate ways to measure muscle/fat ratio. Just how much water you retain in your body throws it off by up to 5%.http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
Protrein is also highly studied and there are tons of studies to back up my claims.
Btw, how are you measuring muscle gained?
I use bio-impedance to measure muscle mass but that requires one to be pretty controlled in how they take the measurement.
Gaining strength doesn't equate to gaining muscle. On any strength program, a person can increase their strength progressively for quite some time without adding muscle. It's referred to as Neuromuscular Adaptation.I confirm my measurements by testing my strength. For example doing dips until exhaustion. But a lot of different exercises across muscle groups has to be used. For me my strength is continuing to gain. I work out about 12 hours a week so it is easy for me to track if I'm gaining or losing.
Not uncommon to gain some girth in any part of the body immediately, on a lifting program due to the fact that body loads up on glycogen and water storage.The 3rd check is measurements, I use and electrical measure to make it easy, I just have to worry about positioning the tape correctly. (Measuring shoulders or upper arms is hard enough without having also read the tape.)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Bio impedance works very well if one is consistent in how they use it. And the type is strength gains I've had don't happen without more muscle mass. I'm not new to this, I've been working out consistently for 4 years and before I had children I worked out consistently for more than a decade. I also know very well when I've stressed my muscles and when I haven't. When you are breaking down muscle fiber it doesn't happen with out a good amount of soreness.
The measurements I use are rock solid as far as consistency goes. There likely is a constant offset but the delta is good. My numbers have changed slowly and consistently. I also understand very well how impedance works and my background is electrical engineering.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21555168 is a study that shows for middle aged adults bio impedance works particularly well for measuring lean body mass and also works well body fat measurement but with a wider error range. Like all tools if you don't use it correctly you don't get the expected results.
I've seen absurd statements on MFP, like measure yourself eat a meal and measure yourself again and you get different results. Of coarse you get different results because the food and drink change your body weight so the percent that is fat and muscle is lower.
Also I think a lot of people judge bio impedance on really cheap scales that are little more than toys. You need to get a real scale that uses both hands and feet and measures with multiple frequencies.
One of the disadvantages of a KETO diet is most of the rapid initial weight loss is just water and that will return as carbs are eaten again. That also causes confusion with tools like bio impedance because it is a major change in hydration.
"Although bioimpedance analysis (BIA) can easily assess body composition, its accuracy remains unclear."
And while DSM-BIA units are more accurate, those machines aren't available (unless you spent about $1000 getting one) on the general market. So you're saying you actually have one? We have one at my gym that we use with clients and for contests, but again it wasn't a cheap piece of equipment to buy (InBody 270 model).
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
What was your starting weight and current?
Also, simple question. For someone like me who eats 4K calories per day, what should my macros be in your opinion? I lift 2 hours a day, 6 days a week and do cardio for about 4-7 hours per week (cycling). I'm 6', 178lbs, 7% body fat.
My starting weight was 94 kg and now I'm at 90.4 kg this morning. (~200 pounds)
To be honest I haven't put a lot of thought into macros, I only know mine because the food dairy tracks them. However I often see a lot of Japanese men doing body weight calisthenics that are pretty amazing. In general the Japanese diet is much lower in protein than say a US diet. (Heavier in booze though which kind of wipes out a lot of the healthy stuff, but I don't drink it.) I workout about 12 hours a week, but seven of those is just walking up stairs and general walking, not very serious but it is before breakfast.
As for you ... you are working out a huge amount, 12 hours of lifting a week alone! That is why you can eat 4000 kc a day. However as long as you avoid a lot of added sugar which could mess things up, with that much food I think you could eat whatever you want. I think you said you eat 350 grams of protein a day, probably way more than you need but hey at 7% body fat your diet is working. My son is 9.5% body fat and that is very lean. I'm currently a hefty 20.5% ... but 4 years ago I was 106 kg and way over 30% body fat.
No, I don't eat 350 gr per day. I eat 175. The reason I asked is because you are against too much fat as well which I'm not sure what too much is to you but if I eat say 100 grams of fat and 175 gr of protein, that leaves me with 2500 calories for carbs. That's a lot of carbs. Even for me. But some say don't eat too many carbs. Don't eat added sugars. It all gets confusing for a guy who just practices a flexible diet. That's all. Luckily, you are right and I have it figured out and it's been working for a few years.
And as an aside, I had stepped on a BIA scale and it told me 25% BF and 5 seconds later it showed 13%, and 5 seconds after that showed 17%. The this was an expensive unit at my dietitian's office. Moral of the story is BIA scales are just as meaningless as no scale at all.
I'm not against fat, but I do think that trying to consume over half of your calories from fat may not actually be safe. All we know about fat consumption is cutting from 40% of the diet to 30% or less doesn't help with heart disease. We really don't know what happens long term to the people getting > 70% of their calories from fat.
If lowering fat intake from 40% to 30% or less doesn't help heart disease, why would you automatically assume that increasing it would increase heart disease. That simply doesn't follow. Assuming the fats eaten are healthy (not trans fats or rancid seed oils, and the omega 3:6 ratio is kept around 1:1 - 1:3). There is no reason to believe a LCHF diet would contribute to CVD. If anything, reducing the carbs (which tend to drive inflammation and increase triglyceride levels) and reducing the heavily processed oils (also inflammatory), while increasing saturated fats (increase HDL) would improve CVD risk by not only reducing inflammation, but also improving the cholesterol profile (higher HDL, coupled with lowered triglycerides, and larger particle LDL is shown to reduce risk of CVD, regardless of total cholesterol). Not to mention better blood glucose control for diabetics (as is so often achieved on a LCHF diet) reduces their risk of CVD.
If healthy fats get replaced by carbs and/or poly oils, we actually see CVD risk increase. Fat is not bad.
1 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
What was your starting weight and current?
Also, simple question. For someone like me who eats 4K calories per day, what should my macros be in your opinion? I lift 2 hours a day, 6 days a week and do cardio for about 4-7 hours per week (cycling). I'm 6', 178lbs, 7% body fat.
My starting weight was 94 kg and now I'm at 90.4 kg this morning. (~200 pounds)
To be honest I haven't put a lot of thought into macros, I only know mine because the food dairy tracks them. However I often see a lot of Japanese men doing body weight calisthenics that are pretty amazing. In general the Japanese diet is much lower in protein than say a US diet. (Heavier in booze though which kind of wipes out a lot of the healthy stuff, but I don't drink it.) I workout about 12 hours a week, but seven of those is just walking up stairs and general walking, not very serious but it is before breakfast.
As for you ... you are working out a huge amount, 12 hours of lifting a week alone! That is why you can eat 4000 kc a day. However as long as you avoid a lot of added sugar which could mess things up, with that much food I think you could eat whatever you want. I think you said you eat 350 grams of protein a day, probably way more than you need but hey at 7% body fat your diet is working. My son is 9.5% body fat and that is very lean. I'm currently a hefty 20.5% ... but 4 years ago I was 106 kg and way over 30% body fat.
No, I don't eat 350 gr per day. I eat 175. The reason I asked is because you are against too much fat as well which I'm not sure what too much is to you but if I eat say 100 grams of fat and 175 gr of protein, that leaves me with 2500 calories for carbs. That's a lot of carbs. Even for me. But some say don't eat too many carbs. Don't eat added sugars. It all gets confusing for a guy who just practices a flexible diet. That's all. Luckily, you are right and I have it figured out and it's been working for a few years.
And as an aside, I had stepped on a BIA scale and it told me 25% BF and 5 seconds later it showed 13%, and 5 seconds after that showed 17%. The this was an expensive unit at my dietitian's office. Moral of the story is BIA scales are just as meaningless as no scale at all.
I'm not against fat, but I do think that trying to consume over half of your calories from fat may not actually be safe. All we know about fat consumption is cutting from 40% of the diet to 30% or less doesn't help with heart disease. We really don't know what happens long term to the people getting > 70% of their calories from fat.
If lowering fat intake from 40% to 30% or less doesn't help heart disease, why would you automatically assume that increasing it would increase heart disease. That simply doesn't follow. Assuming the fats eaten are healthy (not trans fats or rancid seed oils, and the omega 3:6 ratio is kept around 1:1 - 1:3). There is no reason to believe a LCHF diet would contribute to CVD. If anything, reducing the carbs (which tend to drive inflammation and increase triglyceride levels) and reducing the heavily processed oils (also inflammatory), while increasing saturated fats (increase HDL) would improve CVD risk by not only reducing inflammation, but also improving the cholesterol profile (higher HDL, coupled with lowered triglycerides, and larger particle LDL is shown to reduce risk of CVD, regardless of total cholesterol). Not to mention better blood glucose control for diabetics (as is so often achieved on a LCHF diet) reduces their risk of CVD.
If healthy fats get replaced by carbs and/or poly oils, we actually see CVD risk increase. Fat is not bad.
Your last statement isnt completely correct. It depends on the type of carb. Fruits, veggies, whole grains and oats wont increase cvd.0 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.
There are all kinds of different claims on the web. Anyway I've done very well on 50 to 60 grams of protein / day. While my 2200 kc is at a deficit and I've lost 3kg over ten weeks, I've almost gained a kg of muscle during that period. (Muscle mass at 36.5% from 34.5% at the start). Since my goal was to reduce fat I'm pretty happy with the modest muscle gain. Personally I think people greatly overeat protein.
What was your starting weight and current?
Also, simple question. For someone like me who eats 4K calories per day, what should my macros be in your opinion? I lift 2 hours a day, 6 days a week and do cardio for about 4-7 hours per week (cycling). I'm 6', 178lbs, 7% body fat.
My starting weight was 94 kg and now I'm at 90.4 kg this morning. (~200 pounds)
To be honest I haven't put a lot of thought into macros, I only know mine because the food dairy tracks them. However I often see a lot of Japanese men doing body weight calisthenics that are pretty amazing. In general the Japanese diet is much lower in protein than say a US diet. (Heavier in booze though which kind of wipes out a lot of the healthy stuff, but I don't drink it.) I workout about 12 hours a week, but seven of those is just walking up stairs and general walking, not very serious but it is before breakfast.
As for you ... you are working out a huge amount, 12 hours of lifting a week alone! That is why you can eat 4000 kc a day. However as long as you avoid a lot of added sugar which could mess things up, with that much food I think you could eat whatever you want. I think you said you eat 350 grams of protein a day, probably way more than you need but hey at 7% body fat your diet is working. My son is 9.5% body fat and that is very lean. I'm currently a hefty 20.5% ... but 4 years ago I was 106 kg and way over 30% body fat.
No, I don't eat 350 gr per day. I eat 175. The reason I asked is because you are against too much fat as well which I'm not sure what too much is to you but if I eat say 100 grams of fat and 175 gr of protein, that leaves me with 2500 calories for carbs. That's a lot of carbs. Even for me. But some say don't eat too many carbs. Don't eat added sugars. It all gets confusing for a guy who just practices a flexible diet. That's all. Luckily, you are right and I have it figured out and it's been working for a few years.
And as an aside, I had stepped on a BIA scale and it told me 25% BF and 5 seconds later it showed 13%, and 5 seconds after that showed 17%. The this was an expensive unit at my dietitian's office. Moral of the story is BIA scales are just as meaningless as no scale at all.
I'm not against fat, but I do think that trying to consume over half of your calories from fat may not actually be safe. All we know about fat consumption is cutting from 40% of the diet to 30% or less doesn't help with heart disease. We really don't know what happens long term to the people getting > 70% of their calories from fat.
Same with sugar, I don't have any major issues with some sugar, but now many are getting 20% or much more of their calories from added sugars. That is crazy.
I'm all for flexible diets. They work and tend to work for years.
Your experience with a BIA scale is not normal. Something was clearly wrong, the technology though is sound. I've been taking daily readings for months and I only see very small variations from day to day, a difference of 0.2% is large for total body fat %. The scale you used may have been showing readings for different types of fat. For example mine gives me a reading for overall fat % and visceral fat %, however you have push buttons to see either. Seems likely either the scale was broken or you didn't know how to use it or maybe it needed new batteries. More expensive scales might require reading a pages of documentation to know what is going on. My scale has multiple usage modes and you have to extend your arms while holding the hand unit while it is measuring body fat. Some readings like visceral fat % do jump by 1% some days because it is only displayed in a whole number. For example it is currently reading 13% but more and more I see 12%. Part of that is probably error and part is because weight moves around from day to day. On a heavy day the visceral fat % is much more likely to be 12%. As I continue to lose fat the 12% will become constant. Moral of the story is using a random scale you don't know about at a random time is probably useless.
Youre tell us at 200 lbs you are 12% body fat? Do you have abs?
Bioimpedance machines are notorious to be off even if you know how to program it correctly and use it consistently.
Also, as others noted increasing neurological muscular efficiency doesnt mean increases in muscle mass. Its your central nervous system responding to stimuli. Noobs can frequently see improvements in efficiency for 6 months to a year.
Overall, it doesnt matter too much becausw in a deficit one can only gain a few lbs of muscle, especially if its a steep deficit..but the ability to gain is based on protein level and programming. If either are inadequate, then thr likelihood of gaining is very small.0 -
Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.
No you're not.TrailNurse wrote: »I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.
Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth
Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.
During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.
KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.
HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.
In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.
By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.
References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
No you're not? Really?
I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.
Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/
I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.
You have a misunderstanding of how muscle growth works then. Progressive overload resistance is how one gains muscle. And of course if one is gaining quite a bit, body weight is going to increase due to increase in mass.stevencloser wrote: »
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young..
I fifured there was very limited research. In fact, there isnt nearly that much research when it comes to bulk... well not compared to losing weight.
I have no doubt that i can be done and i know there are several members on low carb and keto diets that have impressive results. But as noted, while it can be done, it may not be as effective or apply to as great of a population.
But ultimately you have to chose a method that supports ones goals. Some its just health.. others its more aesthetic and performance and others its powerlifting.
If you look at it logically, on keto you can't have too much protein in your diet, and some of that protein is going to get gluconeogenesis'd away. How much protein do people on keto usually take in? Probably less than the 0.8-1 gram per lbm optimum I guess.
And that is the ultimate question. Even if they are eating more protein that before, is it enough to sustain muscle mass.
At best, it will be muscle sparring but at worst it wont. And more importantly what are the goals of the individual.
I started walking 30-90 minutes per day at the fastest pace I can handle about 2 months ago. I can physically feel the muscles that have grown in my legs. The shape is different (yes I am in poor shape). I'm also doing regular push-up becaues I am in a push-up challenge with a teenaged friend. Muscle gains there too. This at around 70g of protein per day.
It's not just muscle sparing. People can grow muscles without excess carb consumption.
Also in you're in keto, all protein isn't used for muscle building. If energy expenditure is high, then a good amount of that protein is used for energy, which of course reduces the amount of protein used for actually building (not rebuilding) muscle.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.
I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).
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@nvmomketo appreciate the articles. The elite one touched on some goods point and even eludes to there are tons of unknowns. The big take away are things i have touched on... adequate protein and timed keto diets (tkd) or cycled keto diets (ckd). I wouldnt deny thay it couldnt be done because it can... no different than fat gains, but it may not be as ideal based on the training style or goals.0
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Shawn Baker experiments with this stuff all of the time by the looks of his twitter timeline. Scroll through. He usually eats 20g-50g of carbs but for the past couple of weeks he's been experimenting with a no carb diet to see what it does to his performance and body comp.
It's not an interest of mine so I don't really pay attention but now I'm curious to see how he makes out.0 -
Weakness isn't mentioned in any of the articles. It's the gaining of lean muscle that is. The articles I've posted are research that's likely compared what happens on just keto vs carb included diets alone for muscle gain. And I have yet to hear of any culture, especially now, that just survives on keto. Adding any fruit or vegetables in high quantities would trump that.
Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.
No you're not.TrailNurse wrote: »I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.
Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth
Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.
During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.
KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.
HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.
In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.
By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.
References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
No you're not? Really?
I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.
Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/
I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.
Please post a link showing that protein isn't converted to glycogen before fat if on a keto diet. I'd like to review it.
I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.
I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).
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0 -
stevencloser wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
You don't need large amounts of carbs or fat either.
You can even get all the nutrition you want JUST from animal products if you like organs.
You don't need to add carbs to your foods, don't even have to eat a single gram of it for health.
And that I, as someone who can't stand low carb, tells you this should make you think.
True ~~things that make you go hmmmmm~~
I read an article yesterday that stated that carb requirement is {{zero}.
Typo0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »Shawn Baker experiments with this stuff all of the time by the looks of his twitter timeline. Scroll through. He usually eats 20g-50g of carbs but for the past couple of weeks he's been experimenting with a no carb diet to see what it does to his performance and body comp.
It's not an interest of mine so I don't really pay attention but now I'm curious to see how he makes out.
I'll look through his stuff. Interesting.
Weakness isn't mentioned in any of the articles. It's the gaining of lean muscle that is. The articles I've posted are research that's likely compared what happens on just keto vs carb included diets alone for muscle gain. And I have yet to hear of any culture, especially now, that just survives on keto. Adding any fruit or vegetables in high quantities would trump that.
Post links that actually contradict what info is above. I'd like to see it.
No you're not.TrailNurse wrote: »I like Keto a lot and have been on it long term. No adverse reactions to the diet and I am still building muscle with low carbs. I also coach clients who are on Keto and they are all losing weight and doing exceptionally well.
Ketogenic Diets Inhibit mTOR, Insulin, IGF-1 and Muscle Growth
Nutrition is arguably the most important component of an athlete or bodybuilder's training regimen. A precise and effective nutritional diet plan produces a biochemical environment that promotes the most efficient muscular adaptations to resistance or endurance exercise. Throughout the years, bodybuilders and athletes have tried to improve their physiques by implementing the ketogenic diet that is high in fat and low in protein and carbohydrate. The fundamental idea behind the ketogenic diet, besides being hypocaloric, is to persuade the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates or protein due to the lack of carbohydrate and protein in the diet. The excessive fatty acid oxidation in the liver leads to the inevitable conversion of accumulated fatty acid oxidation intermediates into ketone bodies, which were suspected to possess appetite-suppressant properties— thus further facilitating caloric restriction and loss of body fat.
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.
During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.
KETOGENIC DIETS INHIBIT INSULIN SIGNALING, PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT
Insulin is the primary hormone that responds to increases in blood sugar, causing sugar to be shuttled into the cell for energy consumption or storage. Insulin has also been shown to be one of the most potent activators of mTOR.1 Therefore, the low-carbohydrate feature of the ketogenic diet diminishes insulin signaling and may diminish mTOR signaling. In order to investigate this hypothesis, McDaniel et al.2 investigated the influence of ketogenic diets on insulin signaling. In this study, they showed that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets significantly diminish insulin action— and this lack of insulin signaling weakens mTOR's ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
GROWTH HORMONE AND IGF-1 FUNCTION ARE DRASTICALLY REDUCED WHILE CONSUMING A KETOGENIC DIET
Growth hormone also integrally participates in mTOR signaling. Since growth hormone is secreted after protein consumption3, the low-protein aspect of the ketogenic diet is further implicated as a potential cause for deficient muscle growth. Consequently, Bielohuby et a1.4 investigated the relationship between growth hormone and ketogenesis. In this study, they demonstrated that the low-carbohydrate aspect of ketogenic diets also leads to a decrease in growth hormone signaling by causing a decrease in the amount of growth hormone receptor levels in the liver. Growth hormone insensitivity in the liver leads to a lack of IGF-1 production, which in turn reduces IGF-1 activation of mTOR, leading to lower protein synthesis levels within muscle cells contributing to muscle atrophy.
HIGH FAT CONSUMPTION FROM THE KETOGENIC DIET ACTIVATES AMPK AND DIMINISHES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY
Another deleterious consequence that may come from high fat consumption while on a ketogenic diet is the greater amount of fatty acid stored in adipose tissue. The increase in fat storage eventually leads to the release of hormone leptin from the fat cell5, which has been shown to activate the energy-sensing enzyme AMPK in muscle cells and elsewhere.6 AMPK is the cell's master metabolic energy regulator that is typically activated when cellular energy levels are low. However, when high-fat diets— like the ketogenic diet— are consumed, the abundance of fat stored in the fat cell overrides this regulatory principle of AMPK control and triggers AMPK activity, despite the energy status of the cell. AMPK then immediately stimulates fatty acid oxidation. Since AMPK plays such an important role regulating cellular energy, it's no great surprise that AMPK also interacts and regulates mTOR. Moreover, an activated AMPK has been shown to inhibit mTOR function, thus inhibiting muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. In addition, this increase in adiposity would also lead to a desensitization of the insulin-signaling pathway, which again diminishes the activation of mTOR
.
IDEAL DIET CONTAINS A MORE EVEN BALANCE OF MACRONUTRIENTS THAN FOUND IN THE KETOGENIC DIET
The ideal diet for building muscle and burning body fat apparently does not include extreme approaches such as the ketogenic diet, especially for the athlete and bodybuilder who wants to maximize muscle size and strength while losing body fat.The ketogenic diet's low-carbohydrate feature produces a cellular-energy deficit as the human body preferentially and optimally utilizes carbohydrates as an energy source. Carbohydrate depletion reduces the capacity to perform extremely intense resistance and endurance exercise protocols, which will also decrease the capacity to develop muscle mass and remove body fat. Also, the low-protein attribute of the ketogenic diet forces the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source by breaking down muscle protein into amino acids to burn for energy. This, of course, will drive muscle atrophy as well as deplete strength. Finally, the high fat consumption during the ketogenic diet behaves like a molecular monkey wrench within the muscle tissue— wreaking havoc on several biochemical signaling cascades that negatively influence the proper function of mTOR— depleting muscle mass.
In conclusion, a well-balanced diet with plenty of lean protein to drive muscle protein synthesis with complex carbohydrates to supply plenty of energy during resistance training— along with an economic amount of essential fatty acids for long-term energy during endurance work— seems to be the most effective approach to your nutritional routine.
By Michael J. Rudolph, Ph.D.
References:
1. Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Proc Nutr Soc 2004;63(2), 351-356.
2. McDaniel SS, Reusing NR, et al. Epilepsia 2011;52(3), e7-11.
3. van Vught AJ, Nieuwenhuizen AG, et al. Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(1), 15-18.
4. Bielohuby M, Sawitzky M, et al. Endocrinology 2011;152(5), 1948-1960.
5. Jazet IM, Pijl H, et al. Neth J Med 2003;61(6), 194-212.
6. MinokoshiY, KimYB, et al. Nature 2002; 415(6869), 339-343.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
No you're not? Really?
I won't claim to know much about lifting but to claim that people can;t gain muscle while eting low carb seems ... goofy. And out dated. Is this info for a medicinal ketogenic diet rather than nutritional ketogenic diet? The first is low protein while the second is not.
Maybe look through ketogains and see what they have to say there. People like"Darth Luigi might take exception to your denial that people can gain muscle while on a keto genic diet. Maybe this? http://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/
I won't say that someone who is eating high carb with high IGF-1 and insulin may bulk faster than someone on a ketogenic diet but I seriously doubt the difference is something the vast majority of people should be concerned with. My guess is that only top bodybuilding competitors would worry about this. Don't those people supplemen with IGF-1 and insulin. Not something for the typical Joe to worry about.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That's the problem. There isn't much out there. I've seen people who have had success gaining muscle while it keto, and it does not seem harder that when not in keto. There are a few member of the low carb group who are incredible athletes (cycling, lifting) but they don't post here often. Beyond personal stories, there is not a lot of science into testing muscle gains while in ketosis.
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/bodybuilding/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
There is more on endurance sports where VO2max and fat oxidation levels are shown to be higher than expected. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
In lifting, there just isn't much out there. I am guessing that a carb heavy diet may be more effective when working towards muscle gains, but it isn't the only way. If there could be no muscle gains in a ketogenic diet, there are whole cultures that would have floundered and died out from physical weakness.
Please post a link showing that protein isn't converted to glycogen before fat if on a keto diet. I'd like to review it.
I might. But I have a pretty good understanding of ketosis. The protein in the diet is not used before fat for an energy source once you are fat adapted. Sure some is for glucose needs but it isn't a lot. Protein will be used for muscle building if you are not in a deficit and increasing your resistance over time.
I am not in a deficit. I have actually gained a few pounds. Combining that with resistance exercise means some of that weight gain may be muscle (though not lots - I know I am not doing a great deal of exercise but it was significantly more than before).
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The cultures I was thinking of were the inuit, western Canadian First Nations peoples like the Tsu T'sina, or the Masai. There aren't many but they are (were) often in ketosis and I doubt their muscle gains happened only when there was a carb surplus. Their health was good. The First Nations peoples (beyond the inuit who are more compact due to adapting to cold weather) were initially noted for for their unusal height and health (while eating their traditional diet.
I'm not saying muscle gains in ketosis may not be more difficult than for sugar burners, but I am saying it is doable. Would it win a Mr Olympia title? Maybe not. Would it be good gains for someone in it for the fitness. Sure.
I think I posted this earlier but here it is again. Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners
"Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans are highest when large amounts of carbohydrate are consumed immediately post-exercise [29], yet the LC athletes had similar rates of glycogen repletion compared to the HC athletes, despite receiving a negligible amount of carbohydrate after exercise (4 vs 43 g) and more fat (31 vs 14 g). When no carbohydrate or energy is provided after prolonged exercise, a small amount of muscle glycogen synthesis occurs [30] presumably due to hepatic gluconeogenesis providing a source of glucose for glycogen. Horses supplemented with fat after exercise showed impaired glycogen synthesis, but 3 weeks of a high-fat diet resulted in similar glycogen repletion as horses fed a high-carbohydrate diet [31]. An obvious question that arises is what is the carbon source for glycogen synthesis in the absence of carbohydrate intake post-exercise? Although speculative, lactate and/or glycerol, which were two-fold higher at the end of exercise in LC athletes and then sharply decreased during recovery, may have provided a source of carbons for glycogen synthesis during recovery [32]. Lactate conversion to glycogen could occur directly (lactate glyconeogenesis) or indirectly via the Cori cycle. Interestingly, lactate and ketones are both transported across cell membranes by monocarboxylic acid transporters, which are upregulated after a ketogenic diet [33]. Lactate was shown to account for up to 18% of skeletal muscle glycogen synthesized after high-intensity exercise [34]. It could be that lactate rapidly replenished liver glycogen and it has an ability to maintain hepatic glucose output in the face of limited exogenous carbohydrate intake. Regardless of the mechanism, these results suggest that long-term consumption of a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet in highly trained ultra-marathoners results in adaptations in the homeostatic regulation of muscle glycogen that acts to preserve levels similar to those observed when exogenous carbohydrate availability is high"
A lot of their interpretation of the results is still guess work. Athletic performance while in ketosis has not been studied much. Yet.0
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