Disadvantages of Keto diet
Replies
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.3 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.0 -
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young..
I fifured there was very limited research. In fact, there isnt nearly that much research when it comes to bulk... well not compared to losing weight.
I have no doubt that i can be done and i know there are several members on low carb and keto diets that have impressive results. But as noted, while it can be done, it may not be as effective or apply to as great of a population.
But ultimately you have to chose a method that supports ones goals. Some its just health.. others its more aesthetic and performance and others its powerlifting.
If you look at it logically, on keto you can't have too much protein in your diet, and some of that protein is going to get gluconeogenesis'd away. How much protein do people on keto usually take in? Probably less than the 0.8-1 gram per lbm optimum I guess.0 -
I eat a lot more protein now than i ever did on low carb/keto.0
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.
Kidney risks are not common on a nutritional ketosis diet. It is NOT a high protein diet. Most I know set protein around 20-25% of their total calories while ina deficit. For my deficit, set to 1420 kcal, my protein is set to 71g. That is not high. It would not be considered adequate for major muscle gains by many of the heavy lifters around here.
So by your logic, all North American diets are high in protein since they are all above average?
And you keep making up your own information and stating keto is high protein. That is simply incorrect. We don't eat more protein than the typical North American. Stop. Please. Educate yourself before you continue on with this. Please.2 -
stevencloser wrote: »
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young..
I fifured there was very limited research. In fact, there isnt nearly that much research when it comes to bulk... well not compared to losing weight.
I have no doubt that i can be done and i know there are several members on low carb and keto diets that have impressive results. But as noted, while it can be done, it may not be as effective or apply to as great of a population.
But ultimately you have to chose a method that supports ones goals. Some its just health.. others its more aesthetic and performance and others its powerlifting.
If you look at it logically, on keto you can't have too much protein in your diet, and some of that protein is going to get gluconeogenesis'd away. How much protein do people on keto usually take in? Probably less than the 0.8-1 gram per lbm optimum I guess.
And that is the ultimate question. Even if they are eating more protein that before, is it enough to sustain muscle mass.
At best, it will be muscle sparring but at worst it wont. And more importantly what are the goals of the individual.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I eat a lot more protein now than i ever did on low carb/keto.
How many grams are you eating? And are you doing provessive ovetload resistance training.0 -
I'm starting a keto diet today, but I am curious if there are signs for when one comes out of ketosis? For example, how does a person figure out the max carbs that are optimal not to go over? From what I understand carbs can halt the fat burning therefore stalling weight loss. Is this correct? Or is it simple CICO no matter what, and I will lose the same weight if I slip out of ketosis here and there?0
-
I'm starting a keto diet today, but I am curious if there are signs for when one comes out of ketosis? For example, how does a person figure out the max carbs that are optimal not to go over? From what I understand carbs can halt the fat burning therefore stalling weight loss. Is this correct? Or is it simple CICO no matter what, and I will lose the same weight if I slip out of ketosis here and there?
Ketosis is not an on or off thing. There are various amounts of ketones being relied on. Anyone who fasts for 12 hours a day is making ketones at night. If you are eating fewer than about 130g of glucose you will be making some ketones, although not many. At below 50g of carbs per day, most people will being relying on ketones for some of their energy needs. Many of us ketofiles go to 20g of carbs so that we are mostly using ketones for energy (because we like the health effects) yet we can still enjoy some veggies. That's about 5% carbs for many people.
20-30g of carbs is a good starting point for many. You'll be in fairly deep ketosis within a day or two at that level. A sure thing.
If you want to test for ketosis there are ways. The cheapest is ketostix which test your urine. They give a rough idea of your ketone levels but some people stop spilling/urinating ketones after they have been on the diet a long time. Breath tests are very accurate but the most accurate (and expensive) is probably the blood ketone montitor.
Remember to up your sodium to 3000-5000 mg per day or you'll feel badly due to an electrolyte imbalance from the water weight lost.
Good luck. And maybe join us at the Low Carber Daily group where most of the ketofiles hang out.
1 -
stevencloser wrote: »
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young..
I fifured there was very limited research. In fact, there isnt nearly that much research when it comes to bulk... well not compared to losing weight.
I have no doubt that i can be done and i know there are several members on low carb and keto diets that have impressive results. But as noted, while it can be done, it may not be as effective or apply to as great of a population.
But ultimately you have to chose a method that supports ones goals. Some its just health.. others its more aesthetic and performance and others its powerlifting.
If you look at it logically, on keto you can't have too much protein in your diet, and some of that protein is going to get gluconeogenesis'd away. How much protein do people on keto usually take in? Probably less than the 0.8-1 gram per lbm optimum I guess.
And that is the ultimate question. Even if they are eating more protein that before, is it enough to sustain muscle mass.
At best, it will be muscle sparring but at worst it wont. And more importantly what are the goals of the individual.
I started walking 30-90 minutes per day at the fastest pace I can handle about 2 months ago. I can physically feel the muscles that have grown in my legs. The shape is different (yes I am in poor shape). I'm also doing regular push-up becaues I am in a push-up challenge with a teenaged friend. Muscle gains there too. This at around 70g of protein per day.
It's not just muscle sparing. People can grow muscles without excess carb consumption.0 -
I'm starting a keto diet today, but I am curious if there are signs for when one comes out of ketosis? For example, how does a person figure out the max carbs that are optimal not to go over? From what I understand carbs can halt the fat burning therefore stalling weight loss. Is this correct? Or is it simple CICO no matter what, and I will lose the same weight if I slip out of ketosis here and there?
Ketosis is not an on or off thing. There are various amounts of ketones being relied on. Anyone who fasts for 12 hours a day is making ketones at night. If you are eating fewer than about 130g of glucose you will be making some ketones, although not many. At below 50g of carbs per day, most people will being relying on ketones for some of their energy needs. Many of us ketofiles go to 20g of carbs so that we are mostly using ketones for energy (because we like the health effects) yet we can still enjoy some veggies. That's about 5% carbs for many people.
20-30g of carbs is a good starting point for many. You'll be in fairly deep ketosis within a day or two at that level. A sure thing.
If you want to test for ketosis there are ways. The cheapest is ketostix which test your urine. They give a rough idea of your ketone levels but some people stop spilling/urinating ketones after they have been on the diet a long time. Breath tests are very accurate but the most accurate (and expensive) is probably the blood ketone montitor.
Remember to up your sodium to 3000-5000 mg per day or you'll feel badly due to an electrolyte imbalance from the water weight lost.
Good luck. And maybe join us at the Low Carber Daily group where most of the ketofiles hang out.
I made a broth using Lipton onion soup and low carb veggies and meat. I'm hoping that the sodium in that will offset the sodium loss so I don't get the "keto flu".
Thanks for the reassurance. I'm relieved because I thought I might have to stay in ketosis for the whole duration which would be somewhat unbearable for me to stay on.
0 -
I do have ketostix on hand. Thanks for the reminder. I'm going to experiment with 5:2 IF as well.0
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I'm starting a keto diet today, but I am curious if there are signs for when one comes out of ketosis? For example, how does a person figure out the max carbs that are optimal not to go over? From what I understand carbs can halt the fat burning therefore stalling weight loss. Is this correct? Or is it simple CICO no matter what, and I will lose the same weight if I slip out of ketosis here and there?
Ketosis is not an on or off thing. There are various amounts of ketones being relied on. Anyone who fasts for 12 hours a day is making ketones at night. If you are eating fewer than about 130g of glucose you will be making some ketones, although not many. At below 50g of carbs per day, most people will being relying on ketones for some of their energy needs. Many of us ketofiles go to 20g of carbs so that we are mostly using ketones for energy (because we like the health effects) yet we can still enjoy some veggies. That's about 5% carbs for many people.
20-30g of carbs is a good starting point for many. You'll be in fairly deep ketosis within a day or two at that level. A sure thing.
If you want to test for ketosis there are ways. The cheapest is ketostix which test your urine. They give a rough idea of your ketone levels but some people stop spilling/urinating ketones after they have been on the diet a long time. Breath tests are very accurate but the most accurate (and expensive) is probably the blood ketone montitor.
Remember to up your sodium to 3000-5000 mg per day or you'll feel badly due to an electrolyte imbalance from the water weight lost.
Good luck. And maybe join us at the Low Carber Daily group where most of the ketofiles hang out.
I made a broth using Lipton onion soup and low carb veggies and meat. I'm hoping that the sodium in that will offset the sodium loss so I don't get the "keto flu".
Thanks for the reassurance. I'm relieved because I thought I might have to stay in ketosis for the whole duration which would be somewhat unbearable for me to stay on.
Take a look at the sodium levels on the soup. One bowl of semi-salty soup may not be enough. I eventually started salting my water (with a teaspoon of salt) every day because I could not get enough salt. Some use salt tablets often used by athletes.
You'll lose fat weight if your CI<CO even if your carbs are going up and down. Just remember that your weight may go up and down due to water changes. A carb binge after being keto can result in a 5lb water gain. Carbs retain water so staying higher carb will hold that water. But it is just water.
0 -
Okay, great. I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I joined the LCHF and IF groups.
1 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
Is it true we need close to a gram of protein for every pound of body weight per day? I've been reading up in preparation for LCHF that I just started. I imagine going too low with protein will cause lean body mass to go down and body fat % to go up?0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
Is it true we need close to a gram of protein for every pound of body weight per day? I've been reading up in preparation for LCHF that I just started. I imagine going too low with protein will cause lean body mass to go down and body fat % to go up?
The gram of protein per pound of lean body weight is towards the higher end for protein needs That's more for people who are trying to make muscle gains. Bulking and not losing weight - they are gaining. And that is lean body weight. For someone like me who is around 150lbs and not overly fit anymore, my lean body mass is probably no more than 100lbs.
If you aren't bulking or doing a body recomp, your protein needs are less. The basic need is somewhere around 0.36 or 0.4 g per pound of body weight. For me, that's about 60g of protein. I try to hit 70g each day and often go over.
You might want to google that one if you are active. I am the opposite of an expert when it comes to protein needs for athletes.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »
Hmm. I guess not. I'm looking but I am mainly finding how ketosis is muscle sparing and personal stories rather than good for protein syntheisis. Thia is an interview with Volek that discusses athletic performance, and how it does not suffer from ketosis, but I stopped looking. http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/lowcarbapproach There just isn't much done on very low carb high fat diets and athletic performance yet. LCHF is still pretty young..
I fifured there was very limited research. In fact, there isnt nearly that much research when it comes to bulk... well not compared to losing weight.
I have no doubt that i can be done and i know there are several members on low carb and keto diets that have impressive results. But as noted, while it can be done, it may not be as effective or apply to as great of a population.
But ultimately you have to chose a method that supports ones goals. Some its just health.. others its more aesthetic and performance and others its powerlifting.
If you look at it logically, on keto you can't have too much protein in your diet, and some of that protein is going to get gluconeogenesis'd away. How much protein do people on keto usually take in? Probably less than the 0.8-1 gram per lbm optimum I guess.
And that is the ultimate question. Even if they are eating more protein that before, is it enough to sustain muscle mass.
At best, it will be muscle sparring but at worst it wont. And more importantly what are the goals of the individual.
I started walking 30-90 minutes per day at the fastest pace I can handle about 2 months ago. I can physically feel the muscles that have grown in my legs. The shape is different (yes I am in poor shape). I'm also doing regular push-up becaues I am in a push-up challenge with a teenaged friend. Muscle gains there too. This at around 70g of protein per day.
It's not just muscle sparing. People can grow muscles without excess carb consumption.
That isnt how muscle growth works. It take progressive overload and adequate levels of nutrition to gain actual muscle. Since you are losing weight, you muscles are becoming more visible and since you work them they are becoming more efficient. This is what people commonly confuse as muscle growth. Even if you are losing muscle, the existing muscle can become more efficient.
Walking is definitely not going to cause muscle growth. And the fact that you aren't focuses on the compound lifts (squat, DL, OHP, chest press, etc..), you can almost be assured that there wont be any growth. Push ups are good but only address a small set of muscles.2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
Is it true we need close to a gram of protein for every pound of body weight per day? I've been reading up in preparation for LCHF that I just started. I imagine going too low with protein will cause lean body mass to go down and body fat % to go up?
The gram of protein per pound of lean body weight is towards the higher end for protein needs That's more for people who are trying to make muscle gains. Bulking and not losing weight - they are gaining. And that is lean body weight. For someone like me who is around 150lbs and not overly fit anymore, my lean body mass is probably no more than 100lbs.
If you aren't bulking or doing a body recomp, your protein needs are less. The basic need is somewhere around 0.36 or 0.4 g per pound of body weight. For me, that's about 60g of protein. I try to hit 70g each day and often go over.
You might want to google that one if you are active. I am the opposite of an expert when it comes to protein needs for athletes.
Protein goals are based on goals. If you want to sustain muscle mass during weight loss, its .8 to 1g per lb of lean body mass. This is not just when you are body building or recomping. Protein is key to a lot of things, outside of maintaining muscle; its supports strong muscles which can help prevent injury, maintain metabolicm functions, support a stronger immune system and much more. Not only that, a person who sustains muscle will reach goals quicker as there loss will be mainly fat.
1 -
ogmomma2012 wrote: »...Keto is great, and just like a lot of eating style it requires a little discipline with food choices. Some people eat keto for inflammation control, some people to help control T1 & T2 diabetes and some people simply feel better and less bloaty when doing keto.
...Keto doesn't need to work for everyone for it to work for you, if you want to fiddle around with it I would try at least a 30 day challenge to allow room for you to play with ingredients and recipes.
Those are some of the reasons why I'm going to do a "30 Day Challenge". I'm going to see how I feel at varying levels of low carbs as I go. I bought a carb counting 30 day cookbook and have been researching a bit. ~~hope I am ready
0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
Is it true we need close to a gram of protein for every pound of body weight per day? I've been reading up in preparation for LCHF that I just started. I imagine going too low with protein will cause lean body mass to go down and body fat % to go up?
The gram of protein per pound of lean body weight is towards the higher end for protein needs That's more for people who are trying to make muscle gains. Bulking and not losing weight - they are gaining. And that is lean body weight. For someone like me who is around 150lbs and not overly fit anymore, my lean body mass is probably no more than 100lbs.
If you aren't bulking or doing a body recomp, your protein needs are less. The basic need is somewhere around 0.36 or 0.4 g per pound of body weight. For me, that's about 60g of protein. I try to hit 70g each day and often go over...
This is helpful. My lean body mass is ~118 pounds.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I eat a lot more protein now than i ever did on low carb/keto.
How many grams are you eating? And are you doing provessive ovetload resistance training.
Lol zero weight lifting in my life. I have my protein set at 30%, and usually get over 120g every day. When i was low carbing protein was around 70g a day.1 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.
Kidney risks are not common on a nutritional ketosis diet. It is NOT a high protein diet. Most I know set protein around 20-25% of their total calories while ina deficit. For my deficit, set to 1420 kcal, my protein is set to 71g. That is not high. It would not be considered adequate for major muscle gains by many of the heavy lifters around here.
So by your logic, all North American diets are high in protein since they are all above average?
And you keep making up your own information and stating keto is high protein. That is simply incorrect. We don't eat more protein than the typical North American. Stop. Please. Educate yourself before you continue on with this. Please.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.
Kidney risks are not common on a nutritional ketosis diet. It is NOT a high protein diet. Most I know set protein around 20-25% of their total calories while ina deficit. For my deficit, set to 1420 kcal, my protein is set to 71g. That is not high. It would not be considered adequate for major muscle gains by many of the heavy lifters around here.
So by your logic, all North American diets are high in protein since they are all above average?
And you keep making up your own information and stating keto is high protein. That is simply incorrect. We don't eat more protein than the typical North American. Stop. Please. Educate yourself before you continue on with this. Please.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
35% of my intake is 350 grams. Even on a 2000 calorie diet 35% is 175 grams.
And a high protein diet would keep a person out of ketosis so one who is keto really can't go high protein, because it won't work.
And fats? Hello peanut butter.2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.
Kidney risks are not common on a nutritional ketosis diet. It is NOT a high protein diet. Most I know set protein around 20-25% of their total calories while ina deficit. For my deficit, set to 1420 kcal, my protein is set to 71g. That is not high. It would not be considered adequate for major muscle gains by many of the heavy lifters around here.
So by your logic, all North American diets are high in protein since they are all above average?
And you keep making up your own information and stating keto is high protein. That is simply incorrect. We don't eat more protein than the typical North American. Stop. Please. Educate yourself before you continue on with this. Please.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
35% of my intake is 350 grams.
And a high protein diet would keep a person out of ketosis so one who is keto really can't go high protein, because it won't work.
And fats? Hello peanut butter.
You are eating 4000 kc/day? That is lot of food. Also peanut butter is a rich source of protein. 3.5 grams / teaspoon.
The way people talk about ketosis diets here would make such a diet the least nutritious diet on the planet.
1 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.
Kidney risks are not common on a nutritional ketosis diet. It is NOT a high protein diet. Most I know set protein around 20-25% of their total calories while ina deficit. For my deficit, set to 1420 kcal, my protein is set to 71g. That is not high. It would not be considered adequate for major muscle gains by many of the heavy lifters around here.
So by your logic, all North American diets are high in protein since they are all above average?
And you keep making up your own information and stating keto is high protein. That is simply incorrect. We don't eat more protein than the typical North American. Stop. Please. Educate yourself before you continue on with this. Please.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
35% of my intake is 350 grams.
And a high protein diet would keep a person out of ketosis so one who is keto really can't go high protein, because it won't work.
And fats? Hello peanut butter.
You are eating 4000 kc/day? That is lot of food. Also peanut butter is a rich source of protein. 3.5 grams / teaspoon.
Yes. When I am maintaining. And it's really not that much for an active, lean male with plenty of lean mass. Most guys on here are that I communicate with are on 3-4K per day.
And I was mentioning fat that wasn't greasy. I'm not keto so don't care if they can eat it or not. more for me. 0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »<snip>
I wouldn't try to claim that people in ketosis don't experience profound metabolic improvements. However that isn't an ketosis only advantage either as there are many diets and approaches that accomplish that goal. That is why I personally think it is something else like added sugars that's makes the difference. It could be something else too, but there has to be a reason why radically different diet approaches work.
I don't agree that there isn't anything different going on with ketosis but I absolutely believe that improved diet quality eating low carb is partly responsible for the good health some people experience and the improved health markers shown in studies. Christopher Gardner even listed diet quality as a potential confounding variable on his latest study.
When you take away these foods:
You're left with a ton of nutritious foods to choose from and not much else:
Increasing food quality alone can improve health but not as much as weight loss and exercise. But for optimal health, you should do all three.
My issue with your chart is limiting high sugar fruits, rice and things like potatoes. All of those are highly nutrient dense and only need to limited by those with IR or medical issues. Applying that to everyone is meaningless.
People don't need those specific sources of nutrient dense foods though. Those of us who are low carb choose other nurient dense food because they are lower carb. It is not being applied to everyone is the point here.
Rice hasn't been available to my north eastern European ancestors for more than a couple of hundred years. At most. We made due with other vegetables and meats. Rice is not bad but we don't need it.
Potatoes were thought of as food only fit for livestock until just over a couple hundred years ago. My ancestors did fine without it. Potatoes are not bad but we don't need them.
And we didn't have the high sugar fruits from the tropics. We don't need those either. Berries and some apples was probably the extent of it.
These foods you listed are not needed for good health. At all. There are so many nutritious options, that are low carb, that people on a low carb diet can choose instead. People on a higher carb diet may well choose potatoes, rice and high sugar fruits and pass up lower carb, nutrient dense foods like avocado, nuts, spinach, kale - that's their perogative.
That is the lamest reasons yet for a low carb diet. Many of the foods used in a ketosis diet are unnecessary for a healthy life. There are many different groups all over the world that eat different diets and do fine.
FACT: We don't need large amounts of protein in our diet and can get enough protein from plants.
FACT: We don't need any animal products in our foods for a healthy life.
FACT: We don't need to add fats to our foods.
Vegans on the average are probably much more healthy than almost any other group and they consist on a very high starch, low fat diet. This avoiding high carbs because they aren't needed is no different than saying avoid anything from animals because it simply isn't needed. Both are pretty lame reasons.
I never said those were reasons for a low carb diet. I said we can easily, and healthfully, choose other nutrient dense foods that are lower in carbs.
I eat a ketogenic diet because I have stubborn insulin resistance that did not respond to a 20% body weight loss, did not improve with regular exercise, and does badly with a higher carb diet. I also use it to treat a few autoimmune disorders and for a feeling of overall improved health. I did not switch to a ketogenic diet so that I would have the opportunity to switch from rice to spinach.
And I never said that people on other diets would not do fine.
Your "FACTS" are relatively true but have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
No, we don't need large amounts of protein. I agree. A ketogenic diet is low carb high fat diet. Not high protein. And I do know of vegetarians who follow a ketogenic diet. Vegetarianism and ketogenic diets aren't exclusive of each other.
So we don't need any animal products in our food for a healthy life? I disagree with that. Without supplementation, I doubt many vegans would stay healthy over the long term.
We don't need to add fats to our foods? I like adding fats to my food. Butter on steamed veggies or a steak is wonderful. Whipped cream in coffee is tasty. Melted cheese in a egg, veggie and ground beef casseole is excellent, and eggs cooked in bacon drippings are the best. Why would I not add fat to my foods? I see no problem there.
I still think that rice, potatoes, and high sugar fruit are not needed for good health. At all.
Most keto diets I've seen and the way people describe eating is very heavy on protein compared to the way most people eat. While that might not be a high protein diet by some standards it is all relative.
Rice, potatoes, other starches and fruits and the like are actually exteremly important for health on a global scale. The reason is that production of animal products is resource intensive and there really isn't enough resources with current technoglies in the world for everyone to have diets heavily based on animal products. The starches provide much needed energy and a good base for additions like fruits. As much as you like adding animal fats to your food, it isn't necessary for a healthy diet. My point is there isn't any single food that is necessary for a healthy diet. So arguments that rice and potatoes aren't necessary for health is really baseless.
Animal products are pretty common all over the world, but the amounts used vary widely. Still I think all the ketosis based diets I've seen use a lot of animal products. Which could be a major disadvantage to some people.
Around here, ketogenic diets seem to mostly be high in fat. Most experts in this field, like Phinney and Volek or Attia, suggest the high fat approach. I believe it is much more common than you realize.
Because it is not a protein heavy diet, it is often not meat heavy. I have meat at two meals a day. Usually. Sometimes less and sometimes more. Yesterday I guess I had meat twice - a burger patty at dinner and a pepperoni stick as a mid afternoon snack. I had cheese on my patty; I guess that counts as animal protein too. Most of my fats yesterday came from coconut cream, nuts, and avocado.
Sure I believe animal fats are healthy. No argument there. Do I think everyone needs to eat mainly animal products? No. But I do think including some in your diet is a good idea.
You have some misconceptions about a ketogenic diet. Your arguments are not all based on actual facts and you've misconstrued some of my statements. You seem to have linked eating lots of animal products with a ketogenic diet, and that just isn't always true. For a minority it is. I know of a few true carnivores but it really is not the norm. To be honest, I know of many more vegetarians so the meat and plant eating probably balances out in the end.
Compared to most people in the world, you meat consumption is on the high side. http://chartsbin.com/view/12730
The average meat consumption per person is about 41.9 kg / year. That is only about 115 gr/day or 4 oz of meat a day. As you noted you also get some protein from dairy but also things like eggs have protein. Low carb food just tends to have more protein in it.
While that is an interesting chart (with Canada over double the average world wide meat consumption, and the USA almost triple) it has nothing to do with a ketogenic diet.
It doesn't have much to do with health either. 4 oz of meat only has about 30g of protein in it. 30g of protein per day is not enough protein for me... or most adults.
I'm not sure of your point here.
The point is you are eating a lot more meat than you probably realized and meat isn't the only source of protein in a ketogenic diet. There is always this claim floating around that ketogenic diets aren't high protein diets, but that is misleading. If you cut out carbs you only have protein and fats left. So it is only natural that more protein gets consumed. Some foods like meat, because protein and fat aren't separate and some just because the food choices have become limited. It would be very difficult to not consume more protein.
Protein isn't necessary a bad thing as it is necessary for building lean body mass and it takes a more energy to break down protein. Still there can be risks with increased protein consumption and it seems common for ketogenic diet supports to try to downplay any risks by claiming a ketogenic diet isn't a high protein diet. The problem is "high" doesn't mean anything useful in this content. Most people on ketogenic diets will consume more protein once they are on the diet, not less protein or even about the same. In my book that makes a ketogenic diet a higher protein diet. At least a relative term means something.
Kidney risks are not common on a nutritional ketosis diet. It is NOT a high protein diet. Most I know set protein around 20-25% of their total calories while ina deficit. For my deficit, set to 1420 kcal, my protein is set to 71g. That is not high. It would not be considered adequate for major muscle gains by many of the heavy lifters around here.
So by your logic, all North American diets are high in protein since they are all above average?
And you keep making up your own information and stating keto is high protein. That is simply incorrect. We don't eat more protein than the typical North American. Stop. Please. Educate yourself before you continue on with this. Please.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
35% of my intake is 350 grams.
And a high protein diet would keep a person out of ketosis so one who is keto really can't go high protein, because it won't work.
And fats? Hello peanut butter.
You are eating 4000 kc/day? That is lot of food. Also peanut butter is a rich source of protein. 3.5 grams / teaspoon.
Yes. When I am maintaining. And it's really not that much for an active, lean male with plenty of lean mass. Most guys on here are that I communicate with are on 3-4K per day.
And I was mentioning fat that wasn't greasy. I'm not keto so don't care if they can eat it or not. more for me.
Okay on your point about peanut butter, it isn't as greasy as many fats.
Muscle burns a lot of calories when it is being used, so active is your keyword. At rest muscle is only slightly better than fat. So it really doesn't matter that much how much muscle mass you have, you need to have enough activity to burn almost an extra 2000 kc/day to maintain on 4000 kc / day. So yes that is a lot of food and a lot of activity.0 -
@Gallowmere1984
"
"TdB is amazing by default, but a beautiful, almost surreal haven"
since beginning this WOE, haven't been there.....enjoyed thoroughly every visit in the past which, incidentally, was a great sign that LCHF would be the way 2 go.
texasdebrazil0 -
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/how-much-protein
"Adults in the U.S. are encouraged to get 10% to 35% of their day's calories from protein foods. That's about 46 grams of protein for women, and 56 grams of protein for men"
So 71g a day is higher than what is recommended. There is a mistaken believe that lean body mass can't be built with lower amounts of protein and while it is true that lower levels of protein could reduce the rate of muscle building, very few people would actually be hitting that kind of limit. Body builders are often trying to add more than a kg of muscle every couple of weeks. That is extremely high rate of muscle development and requires a lot more than just surplus protein.
I don't believe most people would experience lower protein levels on a ketosis based diet unless they are considerably undereating. That is possible, trying to get more than 50% calories from fats is revolting to many people. For example roughly 1 out 3 people dislike mayo, which is basically just whipped fat. (I know this because I'm in that group, it actually causes me to gag.) My daughter probably only gets 20% to 30% of her calories from fats because she doesn't like greasily tastes. So I think it would be pretty natural for ketosis based diet to lean towards more proteins because for many, there is only so much fat that is editable per meal.
Men can generally gain 2 lbs a month if its the first time they bulk. Roughly 20 to 25 lbs a year and then it tapers. They will only do it in a calorie surplus.. if we are talking during a deficit, then it is recommended to maintain higher levels of protein to sustain (not build) muscle mass. On top of that, progressive resistance is also required to maintain while in a deficit.
<--- i maintain at 3000 calories too. And need 22% of my calories from protein when i cut on 2400 calories.0 -
OP
Hoping you know that there isn't a "one size fits all" KETO way to eat,
however you really want to be sure you consume enough "healthy fat", it's the fat intake that eliminates cravings. Correct fat and salt intake are very important.
During my first month, often I ate all of my favorite salami(s)...... it was tasty, it was easy! I'd have a big salad with protein in it and add olive oil--- jump started my weight loss.
So go ahead, get started if you think you can benefit and tweak the eating/meal plan as you go.0
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