Ketosis
Options
Replies
-
Are people looking at ketogenic diets as a therapy to treat an illness, or a long-term lifestyle?
I start suspecting things when a particular treatment is considered a panacea for extremely different diseases/disorders. From reading these studies, not one mentions how other diet alterations might produce the same effects, though dietary changes for many of these disorders have been tried and also shown results. For instance, Alzheimer's and the "Mediterranean Diet", or obesity/diabetes and any diet that limits calories (for energy burned) and refined carbohydrates.
Also the rigor of all these studies are abysmal. Very few participants, use of questionaries, not comparing to another type of diet (I did find ONE that did compare to a moderate carb intake diet, but both groups lost weight, keto an average of 6 kg and non-keto an average of 4 kg, and there were only 17 participants). Then I found a study that basically said there was no change in insulin sensitivity for keto-diets after a year, though keto-diet had more weight loss (again, both groups had weight loss and study design is flawed): http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=717452
For that article GaleHawkins posted that lists all the supposed improvements for a wide variety of ailments, there is one reference for it (though not for all she listed) that is a review paper and it says this in the final conclusion: "Despite the relative lack of clinical data, there is an emerging literature supporting the broad use of the KD (and its variants) against a variety of neurological conditions."
Nice. Let's all jump on the bandwagon now before it's too late!0 -
Glucose excess in many seems to result in obesity and diabetes.
Funny how the OP isn't worried about that. LOL0 -
blktngldhrt wrote: »in….because this seems like fun…
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved.
Its not a full article but what I understood that keto dieters lost more weight because they were having a larger deficit VLCD. Non keto dieters were on LCD not VLCD! So where is the comparison?
Edit: Also non keto dieters lost 4.8 KG (+/- something) 10 lbs, in two months. Which is a good amount in itself!
0 -
Are people looking at ketogenic diets as a therapy to treat an illness, or a long-term lifestyle?
I start suspecting things when a particular treatment is considered a panacea for extremely different diseases/disorders. From reading these studies, not one mentions how other diet alterations might produce the same effects, though dietary changes for many of these disorders have been tried and also shown results. For instance, Alzheimer's and the "Mediterranean Diet", or obesity/diabetes and any diet that limits calories (for energy burned) and refined carbohydrates.
Also the rigor of all these studies are abysmal. Very few participants, use of questionaries, not comparing to another type of diet (I did find ONE that did compare to a moderate carb intake diet, but both groups lost weight, keto an average of 6 kg and non-keto an average of 4 kg, and there were only 17 participants). Then I found a study that basically said there was no change in insulin sensitivity for keto-diets after a year, though keto-diet had more weight loss (again, both groups had weight loss and study design is flawed): http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=717452
For that article GaleHawkins posted that lists all the supposed improvements for a wide variety of ailments, there is one reference for it (though not for all she listed) that is a review paper and it says this in the final conclusion: "Despite the relative lack of clinical data, there is an emerging literature supporting the broad use of the KD (and its variants) against a variety of neurological conditions."
Nice. Let's all jump on the bandwagon now before it's too late!
The only thing I've seen confirmed medically for NK is epilepsy and ADHD due to the connection between GABA and ketone bodies.0 -
RockstarWilson wrote: »
If we thought about things in the sense of it might take a very long time for something to become a risk, possibly, then we wouldn't do anything in life.
I'm not a fan of Keto for myself because:
I don't find it necessary to burn fat.
I love eating pizza, ice cream, bagels, pancakes, waffles, cookies, cereal, brownies on a regular basis.
I like to cut with my calories and carbs as high as possible to allow for as much variety as possible and also to allow myself as much room as possible to adjust calories and macros towards the end of my cut as needed without having to do cardio.
Keto allows me to eat bacon every day. Keto allows me to have half a block of cheese every day. keto allows me to eat avocados every day. The foods I enjoy I eat everyday on this diet, in mass quantities. Heck, most times I eat bacon, it is the main course. So, there is no right or wrong answer here. If you get results by how you do things, then it is a right way.
But just out of curiosity, how often do you enjoy those foods? A lot of what you listed off has a ton of fat that comes with those carbs, and they cannot coexist as healthy, so those must be novelties in your diet.
Why do people on a Keto diet think they are the only ones to eat bacon and cheese everyday?0 -
RockstarWilson wrote: »
If we thought about things in the sense of it might take a very long time for something to become a risk, possibly, then we wouldn't do anything in life.
I'm not a fan of Keto for myself because:
I don't find it necessary to burn fat.
I love eating pizza, ice cream, bagels, pancakes, waffles, cookies, cereal, brownies on a regular basis.
I like to cut with my calories and carbs as high as possible to allow for as much variety as possible and also to allow myself as much room as possible to adjust calories and macros towards the end of my cut as needed without having to do cardio.
Keto allows me to eat bacon every day. Keto allows me to have half a block of cheese every day. keto allows me to eat avocados every day. The foods I enjoy I eat everyday on this diet, in mass quantities. Heck, most times I eat bacon, it is the main course. So, there is no right or wrong answer here. If you get results by how you do things, then it is a right way.
But just out of curiosity, how often do you enjoy those foods? A lot of what you listed off has a ton of fat that comes with those carbs, and they cannot coexist as healthy, so those must be novelties in your diet.
Why do people on a Keto diet think they are the only ones to eat bacon and cheese everyday?
I am on keto and I don't think that or anything close to that. Is it fair to lump all keto eaters in one pot?0 -
Dave198lbs wrote: »RockstarWilson wrote: »
If we thought about things in the sense of it might take a very long time for something to become a risk, possibly, then we wouldn't do anything in life.
I'm not a fan of Keto for myself because:
I don't find it necessary to burn fat.
I love eating pizza, ice cream, bagels, pancakes, waffles, cookies, cereal, brownies on a regular basis.
I like to cut with my calories and carbs as high as possible to allow for as much variety as possible and also to allow myself as much room as possible to adjust calories and macros towards the end of my cut as needed without having to do cardio.
Keto allows me to eat bacon every day. Keto allows me to have half a block of cheese every day. keto allows me to eat avocados every day. The foods I enjoy I eat everyday on this diet, in mass quantities. Heck, most times I eat bacon, it is the main course. So, there is no right or wrong answer here. If you get results by how you do things, then it is a right way.
But just out of curiosity, how often do you enjoy those foods? A lot of what you listed off has a ton of fat that comes with those carbs, and they cannot coexist as healthy, so those must be novelties in your diet.
Why do people on a Keto diet think they are the only ones to eat bacon and cheese everyday?
I am on keto and I don't think that or anything close to that. Is it fair to lump all keto eaters in one pot?
Where did I say all Keto dieters?0 -
bcomingfitmom wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »in….because this seems like fun…
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved.
Its not a full article but what I understood that keto dieters lost more weight because they were having a larger deficit VLCD. Non keto dieters were on LCD not VLCD! So where is the comparison?
Edit: Also non keto dieters lost 4.8 KG (+/- something) 10 lbs, in two months. Which is a good amount in itself!
Maybe not. http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
In a lot of the studies listed here, the low fat diets were calorie restricted and the keto dieters still lost more as well as improved cholesterol, a1c levels, insulin sensitivity, waist to hip ratio..etc.
I personally wouldn't be able to do very low calorie without it also being keto.
I'm sure different bodies and different medical conditions can benefit from different diets.0 -
blktngldhrt wrote: »bcomingfitmom wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »in….because this seems like fun…
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved.
Its not a full article but what I understood that keto dieters lost more weight because they were having a larger deficit VLCD. Non keto dieters were on LCD not VLCD! So where is the comparison?
Edit: Also non keto dieters lost 4.8 KG (+/- something) 10 lbs, in two months. Which is a good amount in itself!
Maybe not. http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
In a lot of the studies listed here, the low fat diets were calorie restricted and the keto dieters still lost more as well as improved cholesterol, a1c levels, insulin sensitivity, waist to hip ratio..etc.
I personally wouldn't be able to do very low calorie without it also being keto.
I'm sure different bodies and different medical conditions can benefit from different diets.
Exactly! So in case of obese people without any underlying medical conditions any diet with a reasonable calorie deficit work! All I am trying to say is keto is not superior to CICO, may be on par. Heck, I am obese class 1 and vegetarian and I am losing nearly 2 lbs a week by eating at TDEE-20%!!0 -
bcomingfitmom wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »bcomingfitmom wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »in….because this seems like fun…
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved.
Its not a full article but what I understood that keto dieters lost more weight because they were having a larger deficit VLCD. Non keto dieters were on LCD not VLCD! So where is the comparison?
Edit: Also non keto dieters lost 4.8 KG (+/- something) 10 lbs, in two months. Which is a good amount in itself!
Maybe not. http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
In a lot of the studies listed here, the low fat diets were calorie restricted and the keto dieters still lost more as well as improved cholesterol, a1c levels, insulin sensitivity, waist to hip ratio..etc.
I personally wouldn't be able to do very low calorie without it also being keto.
I'm sure different bodies and different medical conditions can benefit from different diets.
Exactly! So in case of obese people without any underlying medical conditions any diet with a reasonable calorie deficit work! All I am trying to say is keto is not superior to CICO, may be on par. Heck, I am obese class 1 and vegetarian and I am losing nearly 2 lbs a week by eating at TDEE-20%!!
I never said other diets wouldn't work.0 -
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...[/quote]
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved. [/quote]
^^ There is where you said it0 -
I hope that this isn't considered a derail of the thread, but I'm coming at this from a completely different perspective. I have no idea at all what a keto diet is. This topic caught my eye because I really enjoy human acid base physiology--Yeah, I know how nerdy that sounded. Anyway, my experience with ketosis comes solely from that perspective not from the diet or weight loss world.
So, why do the diet plan authors recommend ketosis above and beyond the simple notion of taking in fewer calories than you expend? How do followers of these diet plans determine if they are in the state of ketosis? Is it just a basic assumption that if you follow the prescribed diet you will be in a ketotic state or are people actually monitoring their urine or doing blood tests?
To answer these questions, I recommend you read "Why We Get Fat" by Gary Taubes. He does a good job explaining the endocrinology (not sure that's the right word - a little help?)
But I'll try to answer your questions. I'm doing this from memory, so if you need to correct me please be kind.
Why do the diet plan authors recommend ketosis...
Diet authors recommend ketosis over simple calorie restriction for certain people. Not for everybody. I haven't seen a clear definition of who should be trying it, and who should avoid it; I don't think science has made it that far. So you only know if it will work by trying it.
The greatest benefit is appetite control. I find if I eat bread, fruit, or pasta I feel hungry again shortly after. But if I eat an equivalent amount of protein or fat, that doesn't happen.
This reason for this - as I recall - is because your body processes glucose first. Too much glucose in the blood stream is toxic, so insulin kinda shuts down the processing of fat until the glucose is dealt with. If you normally eat a lot of carbs, then your body gets used to releasing a lot of insulin to process them. Then if you don't need as much insulin as has been released it kinda lingers in your system and prevents you from processing fat while it's there.
The goal of all low-carbers it to become "fat adapted". When you eat carbs all the time, the fat you eat just gets stored and not used for energy. When you become "fat adapted" it means your body has re-learned how to burn fat as a primary fuel instead of simply screaming for more carbs. This is why low-carbers often have trouble eating enough. We don't get hunger signals because the body is getting the required energy from stored fat.
I don't think ketosis actually causes weight loss in any way. I think it's just a way to keep your brain functioning while you severely restrict your carb intake in an effort to become fat adapted. But that's just my interpretation, I'm not sure it's right.
How do followers of these diet plans determine if they are in the state of ketosis? Is it just a basic assumption...
There are symptoms. There are sticks that measure ketones in your urine. A lot of people monitor it that way. I've never used those though. I get keto-breath, that's how I know. Some others: dehydration, sudden weight loss caused by water loss when the glycogen gets flushed out, and a temporary-but-severe brain fog are all common.
you don't need a book to know why people get fat.
people get fat because they eat more then they consume….that must be a short book...0 -
bcomingfitmom wrote: »for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved. [/quote]
^^ There is where you said it[/quote]
link to full study would be appreciated..that is just an abstract…says nothing about sample size, methods etc…
0 -
A calorie deficit will work whether keto, high carb, vegetarian etc. What people doing keto try to explain is that it is easier to lose on keto because you feel full and not constantly hungry. Fat and in particular protein are satiating so it is hard to overeat, whereas it is easy to eat carb rich foods all day. I have been doing keto for 10 months, it is now a lifestyle, it was a diet for the first few months, I felt great so do not feel I need to change.0
-
http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2014/08/all-roads-lead-through-krebs-true-keto.html
"Being in ketosis is NOT an indicator of net BODY fat burning."0 -
A calorie deficit will work whether keto, high carb, vegetarian etc. What people doing keto try to explain is that it is easier to lose on keto because you feel full and not constantly hungry. Fat and in particular protein are satiating so it is hard to overeat, whereas it is easy to eat carb rich foods all day. I have been doing keto for 10 months, it is now a lifestyle, it was a diet for the first few months, I felt great so do not feel I need to change.
i don't do keto and I feel full all the time ….does my sample size trump your sample size??????0 -
Most people doing keto think that eating carbs is a recipe for failure! I am a vegetarian, I don't eat meat but I get my protein for the day from plant sources. I have both carbs and protein for each meal and feel full and stay full for upto 3-4 hrsA calorie deficit will work whether keto, high carb, vegetarian etc. What people doing keto try to explain is that it is easier to lose on keto because you feel full and not constantly hungry. Fat and in particular protein are satiating so it is hard to overeat, whereas it is easy to eat carb rich foods all day. I have been doing keto for 10 months, it is now a lifestyle, it was a diet for the first few months, I felt great so do not feel I need to change.
0 -
bcomingfitmom wrote: »
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved. [/quote]
[/quote]
Still don't see where I said nothing else would work.
Also, I wasn't just reffering to weight loss.
Generally, the obese are at greater risk for many of the things a keto diet can help with. If you're obese and have no problems with your metabolic system, cholesterol or diabetes or other insulin issues..that's great. The majority of those who are obese..I don't mean just on the line of being obese..would benefit more from low carb rather than just counting calories.0 -
blktngldhrt wrote: »bcomingfitmom wrote: »
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved.
[/quote]
Still don't see where I said nothing else would work.
Also, I wasn't just reffering to weight loss.
Generally, the obese are at greater risk for many of the things a keto diet can help with. If you're obese and have no problems with your metabolic system, cholesterol or diabetes or other insulin issues..that's great. The majority of those who are obese..I don't mean just on the line of being obese..would benefit more from low carb rather than just counting calories. [/quote]
If thats what you mean then yes I agree with you. But in your frist statement you said obese in general that is why I said its not true.
0 -
bcomingfitmom wrote: »for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved.
^^ There is where you said it[/quote]
link to full study would be appreciated..that is just an abstract…says nothing about sample size, methods etc…
[/quote]
Nope. Never, in that quote did I say nothing else would work.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 392K Introduce Yourself
- 43.6K Getting Started
- 259.8K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.7K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 402 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.8K Motivation and Support
- 7.9K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.4K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 998 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.4K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions