Ketosis
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »ETA I also wouldn't recommend it for endurance athletes since your body would need to generate all glocouse via gluconeogenesis and I am not aware of any top performers who have been successful on Keto diets but if anyone has a study I would be interested.
I am not on a keto diet but would also be interested in seeing such a study. Has anyone heard of any athlete ever winning an endurance event on a keto diet?
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in….because this seems like fun…
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
This.
Whether we choose keto, low fat, sugar free, IIFYM, whatever, we lose weight because of the calorie deficit, not because of some magic properties in the diet itself. Type of diet is personal preference, or perhaps even doctor directed for health related reasons, but one is never superior in and of itself. it's all about what works for the individual.
I don't see myself going on any type of special diet, including keto, because I love the bowl of lactose free ice cream sprinkled with sunflower kernels that I just ate for desert.
However, it's interesting reading about the pros and cons.
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MinimalistShoeAddict wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »ETA I also wouldn't recommend it for endurance athletes since your body would need to generate all glocouse via gluconeogenesis and I am not aware of any top performers who have been successful on Keto diets but if anyone has a study I would be interested.
I am not on a keto diet but would also be interested in seeing such a study. Has anyone heard of any athlete ever winning an endurance event on a keto diet?
apparently Lebron and Kobi have been doing low carb….but I don't think they are doing Keto..
on that subject, has anyone seen pictures of ole King James these days? he looks ALOT smaller and he used to be jacked….interesting to see how that works for him this season ..I think it will hurt him, but that is just my opinion ..
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blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »in….because this seems like fun…
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved.
I can't address the specifics of that study without access to more than simply the abstract listed, but it looks like somebody else did...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18646093
The Cochrane Database systematic review does a pretty thorough and respectable job of dissecting the literature.
However, having said that, the original article quoted seems to me to simply boil down to people being randomly assigned to 2 different diets. One diet had fewer calories than the other diet and the people on the one with fewer calories lost more weight.
If they don't control for identical caloric intake (one diet with ketosis and one diet without ketosis) they can't make conclusions about that aspect of the diet.
The link you provided is low calorie vs low fat. This does not apply to keto as it is high fat.
The first study I posted page back was of diabetes patients and low calorie vs keto. That showed that the keto test group lost more weight, as well. The numbers are pretty much mirrored on all studies I've found so far.
Furthermore, I think doing very low calorie as opposed to just a low calorie and not being on the keto diet would cause more lean body mass to be negatively affected. Which is probably why they didn't do it that way.
Here is an interesting study that I have used in a few threads: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046
"KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted."
Full Text:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/83/5/1055.long
Personally, I think they are effective, but I find over restriction (personal view) is necessary for a lot of people. I am one of those.
That study gets overly cited but is just a drop in the bucket. There are tons of studies on this subject and the results aren't always in agreement, but the common themes are that there's no real metabolic advantage to low carb diets and yet there aren't significant disadvantages to LC diets either. For instance, just last month we had this study come out (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25178568) which concluded:CONCLUSION:
The low-carbohydrate diet was more effective for weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor reduction than the low-fat diet. Restricting carbohydrate may be an option for persons seeking to lose weight and reduce cardiovascular risk factors.
The low carb group also ended up with a better body fat percentage at the end of the 12 month window, which can likely be explained by their increased protein intake. But this is just one of many studies that flies in the face of posters like the OP, who herself eats less than the recommended protein macro and yet claims low carb dieters are at increased risk of LBM loss.
Another recent study is http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25182101, which reaches a much more practical conclusion that the study you're citing (and others like to cite):CONCLUSIONS AND RELEVANCE:
Significant weight loss was observed with any low-carbohydrate or low-fat diet. Weight loss differences between individual named diets were small. This supports the practice of recommending any diet that a patient will adhere to in order to lose weight.
In short, encouraging people to figure out what works for them to lose weight.0 -
MinimalistShoeAddict wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »ETA I also wouldn't recommend it for endurance athletes since your body would need to generate all glocouse via gluconeogenesis and I am not aware of any top performers who have been successful on Keto diets but if anyone has a study I would be interested.
I am not on a keto diet but would also be interested in seeing such a study. Has anyone heard of any athlete ever winning an endurance event on a keto diet?
I just saw how bad my spelling was from my phone keypad, what did I say? Glugoneogensis? Glocouse? I must have been on something!
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It's funny how you can grab part information from the internet and use it to "prove" your particular point.
Here's what I KNOW about ketosis.- After trying to lose weight for 20 years it's the ONLY thing that's worked. No binges, no falling off the wagon, no craving rubbish food, eating foods I can happily eat for the rest of my life. Y'all say "omg I can't give up icecream and pizza and cookies" but you know what, you switch to Ketosis and you don't even want them anymore.
- My family is riddled with diabetes. I am no longer a risk, my bloods are perfect (glucose, cholesterol, everything).
- All of my joint pain and inflammation is gone. This happened after I changed my diet, not after I lost weight.
- I was at far more risk at my heaviest weight that I ever will be 80lbs lighter and not eating carbs.
- Of all the people I've read about (I'm a member of a large online group) who have actually stuck to LCHF long enough to get over the period of switching from sugar burning to fat burning (about 2 weeks) I've not heard any of them report any bad health consequenses. I've read hundreds of instances of vast improvement in health, even after a short time in Keto.
- Based on a dexa, the 55lbs I've lost are primarily fat. I have not suffered a loss in muscle mass, as I eat a decent amount of protein, and burn fat for fuel.
I'm not seeing a downside to be honest.
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I'm not seeing a downside to be honest.
The downside is that some people would be absolutely miserable on a ketogenic diet. For these people, the restrictive nature of the diet usually outweighs any benefit in terms of satiation, and frankly some people just don't deal well with cutting things out of their diet. It also makes anaerobic activities more challenging and eventually requires you to reintroduce carbohydrates in some form to mitigate the anaerobic performance impact (which is not a big deal, but simply adds even more structure to your diet). The cons outweigh the pros for what I'd wager is the majority of people.0 -
I agree with most of what you said accept craving pizza. I don't crave the cookies, nor the icecream.. but I cannot get rid of my craving for pizza.It's funny how you can grab part information from the internet and use it to "prove" your particular point.
Here's what I KNOW about ketosis.- After trying to lose weight for 20 years it's the ONLY thing that's worked. No binges, no falling off the wagon, no craving rubbish food, eating foods I can happily eat for the rest of my life. Y'all say "omg I can't give up icecream and pizza and cookies" but you know what, you switch to Ketosis and you don't even want them anymore.
- My family is riddled with diabetes. I am no longer a risk, my bloods are perfect (glucose, cholesterol, everything).
- All of my joint pain and inflammation is gone. This happened after I changed my diet, not after I lost weight.
- I was at far more risk at my heaviest weight that I ever will be 80lbs lighter and not eating carbs.
- Of all the people I've read about (I'm a member of a large online group) who have actually stuck to LCHF long enough to get over the period of switching from sugar burning to fat burning (about 2 weeks) I've not heard any of them report any bad health consequenses. I've read hundreds of instances of vast improvement in health, even after a short time in Keto.
- Based on a dexa, the 55lbs I've lost are primarily fat. I have not suffered a loss in muscle mass, as I eat a decent amount of protein, and burn fat for fuel.
I'm not seeing a downside to be honest.
It is by far my all time favourite food. Iv'e tried the cauliflower crust, the cheese crust, etc.
and while they are ok they don't even come close to my favourite local italian pizzeria, or even my pre-keto homemade pizzas.
One thing I haven't tried yet which I am going to this weekend, is I found some low carb lavash bread https://www.josephsbakery.com/shop/flax-oat-bran-whole-wheat-square-lavash.html that I am going to try and make pizza on. I also have some of their tortillas that I will also try. While I am pretty sure it still isn't going to come close to regular pizza, I think it will still be better than those other "imitation" crusts... guess Ill find out in a couple days.
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I hope that this isn't considered a derail of the thread, but I'm coming at this from a completely different perspective. I have no idea at all what a keto diet is. This topic caught my eye because I really enjoy human acid base physiology--Yeah, I know how nerdy that sounded. Anyway, my experience with ketosis comes solely from that perspective not from the diet or weight loss world.
So, why do the diet plan authors recommend ketosis above and beyond the simple notion of taking in fewer calories than you expend? How do followers of these diet plans determine if they are in the state of ketosis? Is it just a basic assumption that if you follow the prescribed diet you will be in a ketotic state or are people actually monitoring their urine or doing blood tests?
To answer these questions, I recommend you read "Why We Get Fat" by Gary Taubes. He does a good job explaining the endocrinology (not sure that's the right word - a little help?)
But I'll try to answer your questions. I'm doing this from memory, so if you need to correct me please be kind.
Why do the diet plan authors recommend ketosis...
Diet authors recommend ketosis over simple calorie restriction for certain people. Not for everybody. I haven't seen a clear definition of who should be trying it, and who should avoid it; I don't think science has made it that far. So you only know if it will work by trying it.
The greatest benefit is appetite control. I find if I eat bread, fruit, or pasta I feel hungry again shortly after. But if I eat an equivalent amount of protein or fat, that doesn't happen.
This reason for this - as I recall - is because your body processes glucose first. Too much glucose in the blood stream is toxic, so insulin kinda shuts down the processing of fat until the glucose is dealt with. If you normally eat a lot of carbs, then your body gets used to releasing a lot of insulin to process them. Then if you don't need as much insulin as has been released it kinda lingers in your system and prevents you from processing fat while it's there.
The goal of all low-carbers it to become "fat adapted". When you eat carbs all the time, the fat you eat just gets stored and not used for energy. When you become "fat adapted" it means your body has re-learned how to burn fat as a primary fuel instead of simply screaming for more carbs. This is why low-carbers often have trouble eating enough. We don't get hunger signals because the body is getting the required energy from stored fat.
I don't think ketosis actually causes weight loss in any way. I think it's just a way to keep your brain functioning while you severely restrict your carb intake in an effort to become fat adapted. But that's just my interpretation, I'm not sure it's right.
How do followers of these diet plans determine if they are in the state of ketosis? Is it just a basic assumption...
There are symptoms. There are sticks that measure ketones in your urine. A lot of people monitor it that way. I've never used those though. I get keto-breath, that's how I know. Some others: dehydration, sudden weight loss caused by water loss when the glycogen gets flushed out, and a temporary-but-severe brain fog are all common.0 -
I'm gonna side-step a little here. I think everybody that participated in this discussion did a wonderful job of sharing facts, and justifying their opinions, and not putting people down. I got very disillusioned by these forums because it seemed all the discussions about low-carb/ketogenic diets just broke down into mindless bickering.
So I want to thank you all for contributing in a meaningful way. I've enjoyed this discussion.0 -
I'm not seeing a downside to be honest.
The downside is that some people would be absolutely miserable on a ketogenic diet. For these people, the restrictive nature of the diet usually outweighs any benefit in terms of satiation, and frankly some people just don't deal well with cutting things out of their diet. It also makes anaerobic activities more challenging and eventually requires you to reintroduce carbohydrates in some form to mitigate the anaerobic performance impact (which is not a big deal, but simply adds even more structure to your diet). The cons outweigh the pros for what I'd wager is the majority of people.
"the majority of people who haven't tried it" ...
Sorry, I should have said "I'm not seeing a HEALTH RELATED downside".
I know some people cling onto their cookies and icecream for dear life, and it's their right to do so. But I bet those people (you know who you are) who have been "on a diet" for most of their life, but just managed to feel hungry and deprived and think about nothing but food every time they tried to restrict QUANTITIES instead of WHAT they eat, and gained weight over the years rather than lost it - would find it much easier to control their food if they upped their fat a bit more and gave away most of their carb intake.
There are alot of people who can not stop at just one cookie. One square of chocolate. One slice of pizza. I'm not the only one. I wish I could. But what usually happens is a few days of "you can only have one cookie within your calories" and then "omg I'm eating the whole packet, screw it, I'll get back on track tomorrow/Monday". AMIRITE?
You know what, eating meat and veg and eggs and avocado and other healthy foods and avoiding processed stuff doesn't feel restrictive. It feels great. Best I've felt in 20 years. Just sayin.0 -
Thank you for sharing this, because what you've done is shared why this type of diet plan worked for you. . That is what most important.It's funny how you can grab part information from the internet and use it to "prove" your particular point.
Here's what I KNOW about ketosis.- After trying to lose weight for 20 years it's the ONLY thing that's worked. No binges, no falling off the wagon, no craving rubbish food, eating foods I can happily eat for the rest of my life. Y'all say "omg I can't give up icecream and pizza and cookies" but you know what, you switch to Ketosis and you don't even want them anymore.
- My family is riddled with diabetes. I am no longer a risk, my bloods are perfect (glucose, cholesterol, everything).
- All of my joint pain and inflammation is gone. This happened after I changed my diet, not after I lost weight.
- I was at far more risk at my heaviest weight that I ever will be 80lbs lighter and not eating carbs.
- Of all the people I've read about (I'm a member of a large online group) who have actually stuck to LCHF long enough to get over the period of switching from sugar burning to fat burning (about 2 weeks) I've not heard any of them report any bad health consequenses. I've read hundreds of instances of vast improvement in health, even after a short time in Keto.
- Based on a dexa, the 55lbs I've lost are primarily fat. I have not suffered a loss in muscle mass, as I eat a decent amount of protein, and burn fat for fuel.
I'm not seeing a downside to be honest.
However, I suspect your food choices were such that you stayed full longer and ate less, therefore you created a calorie deficit, which is what caused the weight loss.
It seems to me that often a type of dietary plan can have many more benefits than just losing weight. For example, my friend went on the Paleo diet at the suggestion of her doctor for inflammation of her muscles and bones, and it helped immensely.
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But, none of this sounds good, especially the brain fog.....I get keto-breath, that's how I know. Some others: dehydration, sudden weight loss caused by water loss when the glycogen gets flushed out, and a temporary-but-severe brain fog are all common.
I've not had these symptoms eating less of the foods I love.
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blktngldhrt wrote: »The link you provided is low calorie vs low fat. This does not apply to keto as it is high fat.
it's title is "WITHDRAWN: Advice on low-fat diets for obesity." too.0 -
Here is an interesting study that I have used in a few threads: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046
I see what you did there. A study with Barry Sears of The Zone Diet involved, no conflict at all. LOL.
"HH is an employee of Zone Labs Inc. BS is a stockholder and serves on the boards of directors of Zone Labs Inc and Zone Cuisine Inc; he is also on the boards of directors of Zone Café and ZoneNet. "
The interested reader is referred to the follow-up correspondence from the same journal at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/1/238.long
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blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »in….because this seems like fun…
for the record, I do not care what people do IF, low carb, ketosis, etc…just don't try to say that one is superior to "boring calorie deficit" and we are good to go ...
Not saying you're wrong but..it seems to be the better way to go for the obese.
"In a group of obese patients, the VLCK diet was significantly more effective than a standard LC diet. At one year follow-up in the group with VLCK diet, most of the patients loss more than 10 % of their initial weight and lean mass was well preserved."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24584583/
@kellyb28 one year follow up..lean mass well preserved.
I can't address the specifics of that study without access to more than simply the abstract listed, but it looks like somebody else did...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18646093
The Cochrane Database systematic review does a pretty thorough and respectable job of dissecting the literature.
However, having said that, the original article quoted seems to me to simply boil down to people being randomly assigned to 2 different diets. One diet had fewer calories than the other diet and the people on the one with fewer calories lost more weight.
If they don't control for identical caloric intake (one diet with ketosis and one diet without ketosis) they can't make conclusions about that aspect of the diet.
The link you provided is low calorie vs low fat. This does not apply to keto as it is high fat.
The first study I posted page back was of diabetes patients and low calorie vs keto. That showed that the keto test group lost more weight, as well. The numbers are pretty much mirrored on all studies I've found so far.
Furthermore, I think doing very low calorie as opposed to just a low calorie and not being on the keto diet would cause more lean body mass to be negatively affected. Which is probably why they didn't do it that way.
Here is an interesting study that I have used in a few threads: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046
"KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted."
Full Text:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/83/5/1055.long
Personally, I think they are effective, but I find over restriction (personal view) is necessary for a lot of people. I am one of those.
That study gets overly cited but is just a drop in the bucket. There are tons of studies on this subject and the results aren't always in agreement, but the common themes are that there's no real metabolic advantage to low carb diets and yet there aren't significant disadvantages to LC diets either. For instance, just last month we had this study come out (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25178568) which concluded:CONCLUSION:
The low-carbohydrate diet was more effective for weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor reduction than the low-fat diet. Restricting carbohydrate may be an option for persons seeking to lose weight and reduce cardiovascular risk factors.
The low carb group also ended up with a better body fat percentage at the end of the 12 month window, which can likely be explained by their increased protein intake. But this is just one of many studies that flies in the face of posters like the OP, who herself eats less than the recommended protein macro and yet claims low carb dieters are at increased risk of LBM loss.
Another recent study is http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25182101, which reaches a much more practical conclusion that the study you're citing (and others like to cite):CONCLUSIONS AND RELEVANCE:
Significant weight loss was observed with any low-carbohydrate or low-fat diet. Weight loss differences between individual named diets were small. This supports the practice of recommending any diet that a patient will adhere to in order to lose weight.
In short, encouraging people to figure out what works for them to lose weight.[/quote]
This is what it's all about0 -
But, none of this sounds good, especially the brain fog.....I get keto-breath, that's how I know. Some others: dehydration, sudden weight loss caused by water loss when the glycogen gets flushed out, and a temporary-but-severe brain fog are all common.
I've not had these symptoms eating less of the foods I love.
A lot of people report what they call "keto flu" which is feeling a little disoriented and run down as your body adapts to a different fuel source. It usually only lasts a few days. But as anything else, it is highly individual. Some experience a little over a week or more with difference degrees of severity and symptoms.
Keto-flu was not a big deal for me. I had minor headaches, and a lot of the thirsties, for 3 days. Then, suddenly cravings were gone, chronic fatigue was gone, brain-fog from carbs was gone, energy returned, appetite got normal, and I felt phenomenal. The next week, I was exercising. I had acquired something I had never had before: control. Entirely worth it for a few days of discomfort, IMO. Considering what life was like before for me.
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Sorry it took me so long to reply, I've been extremely busy.
Anyway, I'm really glad I made this thread and appreciate all your comments. I'm not here to be "right" about something or to win a debate, I'm here to learn! Thanks for all of you who were polite in your response. As I said in my original post, if a ketogenic diet works for you, absolutely continue, I'm not saying you shouldn't. Also, I found another study online that changed my perspective a bit. Here it is:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC524027/
The study concluded that those switching to a ketogenic diet have decreased energy and endurance for the first week until they adapt in which their endurance improved and was sustained (except for anaerobic activities like sprinting or weight lifting). The subjects took sodium and potassium bicarbonate supplements and made sure to eat their required protein. It also looked at the health of the Inuit people and others living in Arctic regions where they survive off meat and the results showed that they were "physically unhampered despite consuming a diet that was essentially free of identifiable carbohydrate."
However, many physicians reported that those following a low-carb diet complained of lightheadedness, dizziness, and fatigue.
So, I have come to realize that a keto-diet might work for some people and is not necessarily unhealthy. However, for others, like myself, it may not work at all. I feel so much more energized when I eat enough carbs and don't have as much cravings. All depends on the person I suppose
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Sorry it took me so long to reply, I've been extremely busy.
Anyway, I'm really glad I made this thread and appreciate all your comments. I'm not here to be "right" about something or to win a debate, I'm here to learn! Thanks for all of you who were polite in your response. As I said in my original post, if a ketogenic diet works for you, absolutely continue, I'm not saying you shouldn't. Also, I found another study online that changed my perspective a bit. Here it is:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC524027/
The study concluded that those switching to a ketogenic diet have decreased energy and endurance for the first week until they adapt in which their endurance improved and was sustained (except for anaerobic activities like sprinting or weight lifting). The subjects took sodium and potassium bicarbonate supplements and made sure to eat their required protein. It also looked at the health of the Inuit people and others living in Arctic regions where they survive off meat and the results showed that they were "physically unhampered despite consuming a diet that was essentially free of identifiable carbohydrate."
However, many physicians reported that those following a low-carb diet complained of lightheadedness, dizziness, and fatigue.
So, I have come to realize that a keto-diet might work for some people and is not necessarily unhealthy. However, for others, like myself, it may not work at all. I feel so much more energized when I eat enough carbs and don't have as much cravings. All depends on the person I suppose
Yep. Everyone's body reacts differently to different things.
I'm just a nothing scientist..but I am wondering if the light-headedness, dizziness and fatigue might be related to the 'hypoglycemia.' Some people get its effects due to the blood glucose levels being lower than they normally were while consuming lots of carbs. Their glucose doesn't have to be too low in order to feel symptoms..it just has to be lower than what they're used to.
Then again..I'm reactive hypoglycemic so I see symptoms like that paired with a low carb diet and make assumptions. I lost my light-headedness, dizziness, and fatigue once I decreased my carbs.0 -
Humans are highly adaptive omnivores. We can survive for long periods relying on a ketogenic diet as well as a vegan diet. Both can have pitfalls.0
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