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stroutman81 wrote: »LiftAndBalance wrote: »Awesome information, thank you so much for doing this, Steve!
I was wondering how you would go about strengthening the shoulder muscles? I don't do a lot of upper body work, and have just started Strong Curves after doing AllPro's and some templates by Nia Shanks. Strong Curves includes horizontal push/pull twice a week and vertical push/pull once, all in the 8–12 rep range. Everything I've done before Strong Curves generally alternated between horizontal push/pull and vertical push/pull, and I've never done any accessory upper body lifts or more than one push and one pull exercise per workout. I lift three days a week.
While this is in accordance with my goals in general, it bothers me that I have not been able to progress in any meaningful way on my OHP since August. That means I might be able to progress a bit over let's say the course of two weeks but then I'll be forced to regress again. The problem is definitely my right shoulder. I generally get stuck at the point when my upper arm is extended about 45° upwards from my shoulder or I can't press the weight from the starting position at all. I also have problems stabilising the weight overhead. Do you have suggestions? More frequency, different rep ranges, accessory exercises?
It'd be helpful if I could see your form. I know it's a bit awkward, but my offer stands to assess form. You can shoot a quick video, upload it unlisted to youtube, and send it on over to me at stroutman81@gmail.com. Just throwing it out there as an option.
It's hard to say what's going on, though. One question would be, at what increment are you adding weight to the bar? Another question would be, what do you do when you plateau? By that, I mean do you cut weight and if so, by how much?
Thanks for the response! I'm gonna try to shoot a decent video of me this weekend.
In general, I tend to upp my weights more by how I feel than a strict plan, within the prescribed rep range. For OHPs I'm still stuck with tiny dumbbells so increments of 1 kg per side. First, I tried to get over a plateau by cheating a bit and using a little push on the last one or two reps of each set. That seemed to work well as I was able to decrease the reps I needed to push. Once I was able to complete all reps with strict form, I tried to increase the weights and could not even get out one rep without push. So I went back to the previous weight and was not even able to complete the same amount of reps with strict form but needed to push for the last few again. I now think that this strategy clearly isn't working... I did a few strength assessments and here are the stats: When I started lifting in July, I could do 8 reps with 2 kg. In August, I was up to 11 reps with 3 kg. At the end of September, I have 3 reps with 5 kg. And in January, I could only do 3 reps with 4 kg and failed even a first rep with 5 kg.
Forgot to mention: I had problems with my shoulder a few years back and saw a doctor and physio about it. They both said that my right deltoids were extremely weak and just needed strengthening.
Does that help?0 -
Does progressive weight training at maintenance calories build muscles, particularly in women?
I'm asking because I really enjoy weight training, am naturally quite muscular and was aware of changes whilst at a defecit (noob gains and fat loss showing more I assume). I would like to continue training without noticeably building much more musculature.
sorry, if it's a dumb question0 -
Does progressive weight training at maintenance calories build muscles, particularly in women?
I'm asking because I really enjoy weight training, am naturally quite muscular and was aware of changes whilst at a defecit (noob gains and fat loss showing more I assume). I would like to continue training without noticeably building much more musculature.
sorry, if it's a dumb question
I actually had the same question because I want to build more muscle without going through another bulking and cutting cycle. I can deal with slow gains over time and was wondering if staying at maintenance would do that.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »Hi, I am currently cutting down trying to get rid of some stubborn fat areas. I'm 5'5 148lbs and I'm pear-shaped. I have definition in my arms and abs but my lower half carries all of my fat. Some of it I accept but I think I should be able to improve it. I have spent the last 2.5 years lifting progressively and have made some decent gains and I'm cutting on 1300-1400 calories still lifting with some cardio. I train 6 days a week. I train all my lifts twice a week and do one day of crossfit which is more cardio focused and usually about 15-30 minutes of some kind of cardio on my lifting days. Thanks in advance!
Hi neighbor!
Sorry, that sounds stalkerish. But in context of the world wide web, we really are neighbors.
It's good that you accept some fat on your lower half. You ARE a woman. And women ARE genetically hardwired to keep some extra stores on the bottom half. Yay baby makability!
Do me a favor... please split out your actual daily training schedule. I don't mean exercises, sets, and reps and all of that detail. But what do you generally do on each day of the week?
And how long have you been eating your current calorie level?
No I laughed when I saw that, neighbor
I usually start the week with legs on Monday, Tuesday is back and chest, wed is shoulders, then Thursday it's legs again with more of a focus on hamstrings and Friday is an upper body day. Sat I do a crossfit workout that is more cardio. All of my days start with the main lifts with some accessory work for the given area I'm focusing on and some cardio at the end.
I've been at 1400 for almost 4 weeks.
Thank you so much!
It sounds like quite a bit of activity given your lowish calorie intake. I say that without knowing more about you or your training history. Do you train this much because you enjoy it? Or because you think you have to?
Assuming you haven't actually built up a training resume/capacity for the level of work you're currently doing... just for reference... if you were my client I'd likely start you in the 1600-1700 calorie range and I'd back off the training frequency a bit.
That being said, if you're comfortable with what you're doing and it's yielding the results you desire, I'm not one to say "you're doing it wrong."
There are plenty of ways to skin this cat and there's a lot of individual variability in terms of what "dose" of nutrition and exercise is doable and optimal.
I've been thinking of upping my calories because of the volume. I really enjoy the heavy lifting (cardio not so much) and worked my way up to this volume. I usually get pretty lean up top when I'm somewhere in the 130's but my lower half stays pretty chunky. I didn't know if there was some approach to try and even out a bit and help my bottom half to appear more solid.
In most cases, I'm not a fan of cardio for fat loss. I use cardio for specific performance goals I have from time to time. But when the goal is fat loss, I get my strength training dialed in and I get my diet dialed in.
As for stubborn fat, it's not something I'd worry about just yet. As you get lean again, you might consider something like Lyle McDonald's Stubborn Fat Solution. I've implemented it with some of my learner clients and as far as I could tell, it worked quite well.0 -
Thanks for the advice! I'm not sure if I can keep up with the training volume, but I'm hoping I'll like lifting almost as much as I like my classes. Did my first session with my trainer today, going over form and customizing the program to suit my fitness level (he said it was too easy for me, which is encouraging!)
Good deal. It's supposed to be easy at first. Ease your way into it. A lot of trainers like to crush clients right off the bat. They know it'll get them very worked and very sore. And they know that new clients relate these sensations with success. But in truth, I do everything in my power to NOT crush my clients at first.
The objective is to feel a client out and, above all else, assess and teach proper movement. This is the foundation that more intense training can be built upon.He also recommended I up my calories a bit (100-200 calories) on lifting days, so I'm going to try that and see how it goes.
It's the weekly totals or the daily average that matters most. I tend to place more calories on training days, but this is a give and take thing, right? If you add more calories "here" you need to subtract a little "there," assuming you're trying to maintain the same average.
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amandarunning wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »I should add, I'm by no means shredded. I couldn't step on stage or anything. But I'm happy lean. I'm strong, I feel fit, I eat some junk every single day, I'm not deprived, I pass physicals with flying colors, and I feel I have a pretty damn good relationship with food.
I could maintain this level of leanness year round without much effort. I mean, 5 x/wk strength training is a lot of effort I suppose. Especially relative to most Americans. But I love working out. But what I mean is, I don't really feel like I'm dieting. I'm not exerting truckloads of willpower each and everyday simply trying to keep the train on the tracks.
Of course this is merely n=1. It doesn't mean much relative to you or anyone else. We're all different. But the point is, we need to find that intersection of lifestyle, aesthetics, performance, health, fun, and sustainability. And it's going to be different for each person.
If you follow the BI facebook page, that likely sounds pretty familiar seeing as how I just wrote the exact same thing there yesterday.
Heck, even for any given person, the intersection is going to change depending on what's going on in their lives right now. My training and diet hasn't always looked like this. That's for sure.
In a very objective...ummm...look at human form I'd say (imho) you look v good :-)
"Happy Lean" - I like that term. Kind of what I'm searching for - happy lean, fit and strong!
Thanks very much! And yeah, happy lean is a good place to be. This is my maintainable level. I'll certainly try and improve it. Looking to head into a muscle gaining phase shortly actually. But I'll never be one of those people who are trying to see veins in my stomach and striations in my *kitten*. That level of leanness simply isn't worth the "price of admission" for me personally.0 -
In most cases, I'm not a fan of cardio for fat loss. I use cardio for specific performance goals I have from time to time. But when the goal is fat loss, I get my strength training dialed in and I get my diet dialed in.
As for stubborn fat, it's not something I'd worry about just yet. As you get lean again, you might consider something like Lyle McDonald's Stubborn Fat Solution. I've implemented it with some of my learner clients and as far as I could tell, it worked quite well.
Thanks! I will give that program a try once I get lean. I've been trying to focus on the strength aspect because I want to keep as much muscle as possible. Im trying to keep the guns. haha. I've decided not to bulk or cut again, I think it's too difficult on my body and mind. I'm trying to find a place where I can be happy and work more on performance and trying new things. I saw a new parkor gym opening I want to continue to improve and thought I could do that while at maintenance. Not sure if you can gain muscle there or not, but for now I'll focus on finishing this cut and trying to get to that happy place.
Thanks for all your help. Sometimes information is hard to get for women. The guys at the gym keep asking me if I'm competing. They can't understand a woman gaining muscle just because she likes it. Haha0 -
Can we talk about this stubborn fat solution a little bit? I'm a mom and although I am reasonably lean (5'7", 140 lb, 20% bf by caliper method), my fat isn't sitting evenly and it makes me sad. Most of it is on my lower abdomen like a little pillow. It's pouchy and while some of that is loose skin it's mostly pudge. And yet I can see all of my ribs and spinous processes ect. I've been operating under the impression that if I just get lean enough that baby pouch will eventually dry out. And it's sort of working. Except it's slow and it sucks. I do feel hungry. Too hungry and I don't think I would want to stay that lean and deprived feeling. So my question is this, if you lose stubborn fat and then gain some weight, can you get a more even distribution or will it go right back to those stubborn areas? Which is another way of asking, is it worth it?0
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stroutman81 wrote: »Thanks for the advice! I'm not sure if I can keep up with the training volume, but I'm hoping I'll like lifting almost as much as I like my classes. Did my first session with my trainer today, going over form and customizing the program to suit my fitness level (he said it was too easy for me, which is encouraging!)
Good deal. It's supposed to be easy at first. Ease your way into it. A lot of trainers like to crush clients right off the bat. They know it'll get them very worked and very sore. And they know that new clients relate these sensations with success. But in truth, I do everything in my power to NOT crush my clients at first.
The objective is to feel a client out and, above all else, assess and teach proper movement. This is the foundation that more intense training can be built upon.He also recommended I up my calories a bit (100-200 calories) on lifting days, so I'm going to try that and see how it goes.
It's the weekly totals or the daily average that matters most. I tend to place more calories on training days, but this is a give and take thing, right? If you add more calories "here" you need to subtract a little "there," assuming you're trying to maintain the same average.
He said that I was likely to burn 100-200 calories during the workout, and I don't want to lose weight faster than I am, so he advised eating at least some of them back. I'm going to add 100 calories on training days and seeing how it goes. If I cut calories more I think I would reduce all evenly so training days still have an increase of 100 calories over non training days (1600 on non training, 1700 training)
I've been training with my trainer for a few sessions, so I don't think he's throwing things at me I can't handle, just adapting to what we've been doing. We mostly focused on form and what weights to start with yesterday, not too sore today, just a little in the pecs where I've always been weak. We also talked about when to up weights and how to know if I've hit failure and what to do when that happens.
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LiftAndBalance wrote: »Thanks for the response! I'm gonna try to shoot a decent video of me this weekend.
Sounds good!In general, I tend to upp my weights more by how I feel than a strict plan, within the prescribed rep range. For OHPs I'm still stuck with tiny dumbbells so increments of 1 kg per side. First, I tried to get over a plateau by cheating a bit and using a little push on the last one or two reps of each set. That seemed to work well as I was able to decrease the reps I needed to push. Once I was able to complete all reps with strict form, I tried to increase the weights and could not even get out one rep without push. So I went back to the previous weight and was not even able to complete the same amount of reps with strict form but needed to push for the last few again. I now think that this strategy clearly isn't working... I did a few strength assessments and here are the stats: When I started lifting in July, I could do 8 reps with 2 kg. In August, I was up to 11 reps with 3 kg. At the end of September, I have 3 reps with 5 kg. And in January, I could only do 3 reps with 4 kg and failed even a first rep with 5 kg.
I really need to see your form to make any sort of reasonable assessment.
Also, are you dieting?
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Does progressive weight training at maintenance calories build muscles, particularly in women?
I'm asking because I really enjoy weight training, am naturally quite muscular and was aware of changes whilst at a defecit (noob gains and fat loss showing more I assume). I would like to continue training without noticeably building much more musculature.
sorry, if it's a dumb question
Definitely not a dumb question.
Let's put it this way. Hypertrophy is a very intensive process, energetically speaking. If your body doesn't have a supportive level of calories for this process, it's not going to go adding slabs of this metabolically tissue just because you're lifting some weights. Make sense?
But, as you noticed during your deficit, for reasons that can't entirely be explained, novices can get away with some wonky voodoo. I wish I could bottle it up and drink it for breakfast! How far removed are you from this stage? Hard to say, really. As I've noted a few times in this thread, usually it's the first year of consistent training that really lights up the relatively fast progress and wonky adaptations with or without a corresponding calorie level.
I've seen folks ride this novice wave a bit longer past the one year mark too, though.
End of the day, I don't think you have a lot to worry about if you're eating maintenance.
Now, I will say this... our culture sucks at maintenance. If you're able to easily maintain your weight, you're an outlier. Granted, I'd wager that the population at MFP is better at it than the population at large. But if you're creeping into surplus territory AND you have the genetics to grow muscle easily... it doesn't take a genius to figure out some growth is going to happen.
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I just want to say how awesome this thread is.
Seriously. How are you this awesome?
I don't have a question. I'm only at the beginning of my weightloss journey, but I've learned so much good, practical info from this thread that's really helping me clarify where I want to go with this.
So thanks for both- the awesome, intelligent questions AND the down to earth answers.0 -
Does progressive weight training at maintenance calories build muscles, particularly in women?
I'm asking because I really enjoy weight training, am naturally quite muscular and was aware of changes whilst at a defecit (noob gains and fat loss showing more I assume). I would like to continue training without noticeably building much more musculature.
sorry, if it's a dumb question
I actually had the same question because I want to build more muscle without going through another bulking and cutting cycle. I can deal with slow gains over time and was wondering if staying at maintenance would do that.
Yeah, not likely. Maintenance means maintenance. Like I said above, there's a chance depending on where you are on the spectrum of novicehood. But if you're truly at maintenance and you have a decent amount of training under your belt... any noticeable growth isn't very likely.
Another though, though, is maintenance isn't set in stone. It's a moving target. We aren't robots with fixed inputs and outputs. We're adaptive organisms living a bit differently day to day. So if we're trying to eat at maintenance... sure, we can get pretty damn close most days. But it's a given that you're always going to be in a slight surplus or a slight deficit.
Slow gains are the way to go... and I achieve them by flirting with a slight surplus and gauging how much harder to press the gas or pump the brakes based on what's actually happening with weight, measurements, and pictures on a month to month basis.0 -
Thanks! I will give that program a try once I get lean. I've been trying to focus on the strength aspect because I want to keep as much muscle as possible. Im trying to keep the guns. haha. I've decided not to bulk or cut again, I think it's too difficult on my body and mind.
I can appreciate that. On a physiological level, I'm not sure it's the healthiest of pursuits. It doesn't stop me and many of my clients. And if you're smart about it, I think most of the side effects are mitigated. But many people, while smart, have a hard time doing it smartly due to the emotional/mental side of things.
A lot of nasty behaviors and obsessions can grow from the process if you're not careful. And even if you are careful, some folks just seem to have an ingrained mindset that doesn't do well with it.
The good news is, pretty much everyone has the potential to look dang good by reducing fat while preserving the muscle they do have.I'm trying to find a place where I can be happy and work more on performance and trying new things. I saw a new parkor gym opening I want to continue to improve and thought I could do that while at maintenance. Not sure if you can gain muscle there or not, but for now I'll focus on finishing this cut and trying to get to that happy place.
I approve!
I'm big on focusing on performance. It's part of the process based mentality in my perspective. It's not as cut and dry as I make it out to be... but form follows function. If you get your body functioning at a higher level, its form will follow suit. Of course you need to wrap that concept around a nutrition approach that matches your goals... but that's a given.
I always wanted to try parkor. I don't have the joints for it though... I'm pretty sure my shoulders would fall off. I like extreme stuff, though. For now, mountain biking and mountaineering provide me with my outlets.
Granted, I almost killed myself on my mountain bike a couple years back.
I should maybe just stick with the weights, haha. It's far more controlled.Thanks for all your help. Sometimes information is hard to get for women. The guys at the gym keep asking me if I'm competing. They can't understand a woman gaining muscle just because she likes it. Haha
It's a lot more common nowadays than 10 years ago, that's for sure. But you're right, it's still not common enough. Heck, I don't even like a lot of muscle on women... my preference is for curves and feminine fat as odd as that might sound. That said, I fully support any woman who's set on adding muscle to her frame! And the awesomeness of a strong female simply can't be denied!
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That makes sense. Kinda going with the flow of your training. Cut when u need, push when you can, rest when you have to. I got you. Thanks for all of the advice. You make things simple again. Sometimes it gets so complicated that we need ppl like you telling us to simplify, listen to your body, use common sense, remember science. Haha0
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Can we talk about this stubborn fat solution a little bit? I'm a mom and although I am reasonably lean (5'7", 140 lb, 20% bf by caliper method), my fat isn't sitting evenly and it makes me sad. Most of it is on my lower abdomen like a little pillow. It's pouchy and while some of that is loose skin it's mostly pudge. And yet I can see all of my ribs and spinous processes ect. I've been operating under the impression that if I just get lean enough that baby pouch will eventually dry out. And it's sort of working. Except it's slow and it sucks. I do feel hungry. Too hungry and I don't think I would want to stay that lean and deprived feeling. So my question is this, if you lose stubborn fat and then gain some weight, can you get a more even distribution or will it go right back to those stubborn areas? Which is another way of asking, is it worth it?
Unfortunately you're likely not going to change the genetically derived storage pattern for fat. I wish I had a different answer, but I'm a realist. Fist on, last off. Last off, first one. That's the way it generally goes. And only you can answer if it's worth it. For many, it's not.
I posted my pic above. I'm lean, but not crazy lean. The price paid to be as I am not is worth it. The price required to get leaner is not. And that's obviously my personal judgement.
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stroutman81 wrote: »Thanks for the advice! I'm not sure if I can keep up with the training volume, but I'm hoping I'll like lifting almost as much as I like my classes. Did my first session with my trainer today, going over form and customizing the program to suit my fitness level (he said it was too easy for me, which is encouraging!)
Good deal. It's supposed to be easy at first. Ease your way into it. A lot of trainers like to crush clients right off the bat. They know it'll get them very worked and very sore. And they know that new clients relate these sensations with success. But in truth, I do everything in my power to NOT crush my clients at first.
The objective is to feel a client out and, above all else, assess and teach proper movement. This is the foundation that more intense training can be built upon.He also recommended I up my calories a bit (100-200 calories) on lifting days, so I'm going to try that and see how it goes.
It's the weekly totals or the daily average that matters most. I tend to place more calories on training days, but this is a give and take thing, right? If you add more calories "here" you need to subtract a little "there," assuming you're trying to maintain the same average.
He said that I was likely to burn 100-200 calories during the workout, and I don't want to lose weight faster than I am, so he advised eating at least some of them back. I'm going to add 100 calories on training days and seeing how it goes. If I cut calories more I think I would reduce all evenly so training days still have an increase of 100 calories over non training days (1600 on non training, 1700 training)
I've been training with my trainer for a few sessions, so I don't think he's throwing things at me I can't handle, just adapting to what we've been doing. We mostly focused on form and what weights to start with yesterday, not too sore today, just a little in the pecs where I've always been weak. We also talked about when to up weights and how to know if I've hit failure and what to do when that happens.
Sounds good to me.
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If muscle cannot be built during maintenance after newby gains, does it mean the person will eventually stop making progress in his/her performance too?Maintenance means maintenance
I am just curious.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »Can we talk about this stubborn fat solution a little bit? I'm a mom and although I am reasonably lean (5'7", 140 lb, 20% bf by caliper method), my fat isn't sitting evenly and it makes me sad. Most of it is on my lower abdomen like a little pillow. It's pouchy and while some of that is loose skin it's mostly pudge. And yet I can see all of my ribs and spinous processes ect. I've been operating under the impression that if I just get lean enough that baby pouch will eventually dry out. And it's sort of working. Except it's slow and it sucks. I do feel hungry. Too hungry and I don't think I would want to stay that lean and deprived feeling. So my question is this, if you lose stubborn fat and then gain some weight, can you get a more even distribution or will it go right back to those stubborn areas? Which is another way of asking, is it worth it?
Unfortunately you're likely not going to change the genetically derived storage pattern for fat. I wish I had a different answer, but I'm a realist. Fist on, last off. Last off, first one. That's the way it generally goes. And only you can answer if it's worth it. For many, it's not.
I posted my pic above. I'm lean, but not crazy lean. The price paid to be as I am not is worth it. The price required to get leaner is not. And that's obviously my personal judgement.
^^ More proof you're awesome! Realism rocks
A lot of women find themselves with chicken bones up top and pork chops below, even after a lot of work. That's just how it is. I personally think it's best to accept that distribution, and to try to see beauty in that form. (And to just pack as much muscle as possible into the pork chops so they're firm. I think for a lot of women over a certain age, sadly, it's often a choice between the face and the ****. 20-22% body fat is a good balance for that, imo).0 -
I just want to say how awesome this thread is.
Seriously. How are you this awesome?
I get it from my mama.
Honestly, I used to be the top poster on another huge weight loss forum. I literally spent years racking up posts debating with every single member I found posting what I considered to be misinformation. I enjoyed it and it wound up being educational for a lot of people. It was really one of the main ways I started my online training business.
But honestly, it was tiring. And my intentions really weren't to help people. I just liked to debate. That was in my early twenties. When I found this place, I was in a much different place in my life and career.
I thoroughly enjoy talking about this stuff. The more I talk about it, the better my "delivery package" becomes for my clients and my writing. And I think a lot of people like my style. So it's a win-win. I learn from you and you learn from me.I don't have a question. I'm only at the beginning of my weightloss journey, but I've learned so much good, practical info from this thread that's really helping me clarify where I want to go with this.
So thanks for both- the awesome, intelligent questions AND the down to earth answers.
Yeah, absolutely. You're welcome and good luck to you on your journey.
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