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Thanks for your response. If I understand it correctly the answer is to be patient and consistent and only anticipate slow results.
Ayup.
I know there's a lot of talk about reverse dieting and all this metabolic damage flying around the industry. And adaptive thermogenesis is certainly a real phenomenon. But my primary point is it's not the roadblock most people are running into. More often than not... at least in my experience... it's a lack of patience and/or flawed expectations.
Squeezing that last bit of leanness out is extremely hard.
For some, depending on their genetics and lifestyle, it could become worst than a job you don't like.
I don't think everyone understands what they're signing up for when they embark on a journey to get super lean. Especially women.
And I'm not faulting anyone who sets out to do it. It's a fine goal. You just have to be prepared is all I'm saying.A relate question: I get lost in the advice to lift heavy etc for women looking to become leaner. I'm a climber and I want to get the best strength to weight ratio possible. Is there different advice for gym workouts compared to someone that wants to be fit and have a nice physique or, in your opinion is this just a variation on the "don't be afraid to lift heavy ladies you won't get bulky." FYI I'm 36, 5'7" 144 lbs and 20% bf by calipers.
I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're asking. Can you rephrase the question please.
Sorry... I'm dense at times!0 -
Hi Steve, can you explain this a little bit more: I know there's a lot of talk about reverse dieting and all this metabolic damage flying around the industry. And adaptive thermogenesis is certainly a real phenomenon.0
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Interesting discussion on getting to a certain point of Leanness for females.
I hit around 11-12% bodyfat earlier in the year, and was not on a really stringent eating regime or anything, I simply trained fairly hard with a combination of boxing training, cycling and walking. But it took me to that point to see my upper abs starting to poke through a bit.
But each time I manage to train myself down to that sort of bodyfat%, I totally fall off the wagon, in terms of both eating and training and find I just cannot sustain it.
I do have a sort of question... earlier this year, after 2 months off from the gym, due to a severe chest infection and during which I gained a fair amount of fat, I restarted training hard and within a month, even though I trained just as hard the year prior, and weighed more, my period stopped...for 7 months. I have absolutely no idea what might have caused it. My prolactin levels were elevated for a while, oestrogen was low, thought maybe I was going through an early menopause, but lo and behold, when I gained 6 Ibs over the course of a month back in August, they returned. (I stopped them at about 138Ibs, lost to about 132Ibs, and they came back when I gained back to 138, lol)
I find it odd, as the only other times I have ever lost my period, were when I dropped below 119Ibs (I am 5'10)
So, was this some sort of response to my swinging from low bodyfat to higher, then hitting the training hard again or what?
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Liftng4Lis wrote: »Hi Steve, can you explain this a little bit more: I know there's a lot of talk about reverse dieting and all this metabolic damage flying around the industry. And adaptive thermogenesis is certainly a real phenomenon.
Oh I just think it's way overstated. I think more often than not peoples' "metabolic damage" is really just what I refer to as the funnel effect. Liquid running through a funnel flows smoothly and quickly at the top. But as the funnel narrows, everything slows down and gets backed up. Sometimes you have to stop pouring into the funnel in order to allow for the backup to work it's way through the narrowing space.
That's the exact nature of fat loss as we get leaner and leaner.
Except most people don't know how to live in that narrow space.
And metabolic damage is a very convenient justification as to why they're struggling in that narrow space. And there are all sort of people writing and selling massively overpriced products feeding they hype of metabolic damage. So it's driving this mindset where people are quicker to turn to the idea of having a screwed up metabolism than they are to much more likely things such as water weight, not enough time, closer to maintenance than they realize, etc.
Again, I'm not saying adaptive thermogenesis doesn't exist.
Hardly.
But I do think there are tons of people "reverse dieting" who don't need to be.
That being said, there's definitely a contingent of our population who do in fact diet and train far too hard... pushing what I label the jackhammer approach where they try and beat the fat off their bodies. And in these cases... sure... backing off of all the stress they're applying... from diet to training... is likely a good idea.
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OHHH can I have another??? You rock! How long can water weight last? I quit smoking 2+ mos. ago, sleep 4-5 hours a night and well overall am just one of those stress balls who probably exercises too much without recovery. I was told all of this plays into water retention??0
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That is all very interesting about reverse dieting. I wonder what the effects of reverse dieting are on someone who isn't experiencing this so-called metabolic damage? I ask this because I came from (what I now consider) a steep deficit (TDEE 2900-3100, I was eating around 2100), I then added 100 calories a week for a total of 11 weeks or so in order to finally find my maintenance to bulk. I wonder if adding the calories over such a long period of time had any effect on my body and is the reason for my current high consumption?0
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Graelwyn75 wrote: »Interesting discussion on getting to a certain point of Leanness for females.
I hit around 11-12% bodyfat earlier in the year, and was not on a really stringent eating regime or anything, I simply trained fairly hard with a combination of boxing training, cycling and walking. But it took me to that point to see my upper abs starting to poke through a bit.
Are you female?
If so, how were you measuring your bodyfat? That's epicly low bf% for someone who's not really "eating stringently." I mean, some data suggests the neighborhood of 12% is the lower limit for females... since going below that would be sacrificing essential fat.But each time I manage to train myself down to that sort of bodyfat%, I totally fall off the wagon, in terms of both eating and training and find I just cannot sustain it.
If you're a female, it's really no wonder why. You can't take your body to the brink and expect it to agree with you. Our bodies are biologically hardwired to defend AGAINST extreme leanness. This hardwiring includes hormones and chemicals that act on your body - from your brain to your gut - and in physiological and psychological capacities - to reduce fat loss and increase hunger.
In a way, you can view it as sustainability reducing, hand in hand, along with level of leanness.
Of course there are going to be outliers who can seemingly get super lean without skipping a beat. But that's outliers - they "lay" outside of what pretty much anyone else can expect.I do have a sort of question... earlier this year, after 2 months off from the gym, due to a severe chest infection and during which I gained a fair amount of fat, I restarted training hard and within a month, even though I trained just as hard the year prior, and weighed more, my period stopped...for 7 months. I have absolutely no idea what might have caused it. My prolactin levels were elevated for a while, oestrogen was low, thought maybe I was going through an early menopause, but lo and behold, when I gained 6 Ibs over the course of a month back in August, they returned. (I stopped them at about 138Ibs, lost to about 132Ibs, and they came back when I gained back to 138, lol)
I find it odd, as the only other times I have ever lost my period, were when I dropped below 119Ibs (I am 5'10)
So, was this some sort of response to my swinging from low bodyfat to higher, then hitting the training hard again or what?
Haha, sorry... I'm replying as I read along. Obviously I have my answer about whether you're male or female.
Hard to say what's going on here.
The body changes over time and it's impossible to say you were training and eating exactly the same as you were a year prior. It might seem that way... but maybe you weren't.
Plus, you can't view the stress load from exercise and diet in isolation. The body isn't discriminatory against where stress is coming from. Stress is stress and after you pass a certain threshold, systemically, wonky and sometimes bad stuff can happen.
I'm no doctor and I'm not about to diagnose the causative variables that causes your amenorrhea. I'll say this, though. I wouldn't take the loss of your period lightly. It should be a warning that something is off and you're either beating up your body too much, you're lacking something nutritionally, or you could be dealing with a more serious condition.
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Tagging to read later0
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I've never read your threads before, but your advice is fantastic and I've been following everything covered so far on this one. Thanks for the great thread!
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Liftng4Lis wrote: »OHHH can I have another??? You rock! How long can water weight last? I quit smoking 2+ mos. ago, sleep 4-5 hours a night and well overall am just one of those stress balls who probably exercises too much without recovery. I was told all of this plays into water retention??
I can't answer how long water can stick around. If you're completely high strung though, and you're overdoing it on top of inadequate sleep and recovery... it could be a permanent state.
Now of course a calorie deficit is a calorie deficit. If you diet hard enough and long enough, eventually the fat loss will outpace the water storage in terms of scale weight. Just ask someone dealing with anorexia.
But primary goal should be to chill the heck out. Find ways to induce relaxation and a quieting of the mind in your daily routine. Give yourself timeouts. Check irrational and extreme thoughts and counter them with logical ones. Learn and embrace the art of mindfulness.
I'm serious about this stuff.
The body - especially the female body - can be crazy sensitive to stress. Like I said in the post above to the other woman (starting to notice a recurring theme in this thread yet?)... there's all sorts of machinery under the hood that regulate our body's response to stress. A lot of it has to do with hormonal regulation. Just do some research on cortisol and it's relationship to aldosterone.
But suffice it to say that some of the hormones involved can lead to water retention. And let's say you go causing 5 lbs of water retention. And let's also say that you're calorically set up, knowingly or not, to lose .5 lbs per week.
Newsflash:
Most women... especially the high strung ones... aren't going to have the patience to wait 10 weeks for their fat loss to outpace their water retention. They're either going to beat themselves harder, thus potentially causing more water storage or they're going to cave and binge, thus reversing the direction of their fat.
See how that works?
I think the best article I can remember reading about this came from (the now infamous porn star) Lyle McDonald who wrote an awesome review in Alan Aragon's Research Review about metabolic damage.
Don't ask me what month if you're a subscriber... I can't remember and I'm WAY behind in reading my AARRs.
But the point is, most women would do a heck of a lot better if they relaxed, inserted some sanity into their lives, and stopped doing the equivalent of punching themselves in the face every single day with excessive cardio, dieting, anxiety, and stress.0 -
Best thread ever!!!!0
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That is all very interesting about reverse dieting. I wonder what the effects of reverse dieting are on someone who isn't experiencing this so-called metabolic damage? I ask this because I came from (what I now consider) a steep deficit (TDEE 2900-3100, I was eating around 2100), I then added 100 calories a week for a total of 11 weeks or so in order to finally find my maintenance to bulk. I wonder if adding the calories over such a long period of time had any effect on my body and is the reason for my current high consumption?
There's always an effect. Our bodies are tightly regulated systems.
But if you're asking if the process you went through potentially led to some big spike in metabolic rate... the answer is no. Anytime we rock a deficit, big or small, there is going to be some metabolic adaptation. How much depends on your level of fatness, genetics, etc. So, in theory, when you "refeed" there should be some uptick in metabolic rate in general.
It's a complex topic though. For one, our bodies are better at adapting to a deficit than they are at adapting to a surplus. Meaning our bodies will defend against a deficit more intensely than they will against a surplus.
Secondly, some people are more "thrifty" than others, meaning they respond poorly to deficits and surpluses relative to their "spend thrift" counterparts. Meaning when the former group eats a surplus, they tend to store energy more easily than the latter group. The latter group has a tendency to burn off excess energy by way of something referred to as NEAT... non-exercise activity thermogenesis.
Point being, how your body responds to increasing calories is going to vary pretty wildly depending on genetics, diet history, level of fatness, etc.
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stroutman81 wrote: »That is all very interesting about reverse dieting. I wonder what the effects of reverse dieting are on someone who isn't experiencing this so-called metabolic damage? I ask this because I came from (what I now consider) a steep deficit (TDEE 2900-3100, I was eating around 2100), I then added 100 calories a week for a total of 11 weeks or so in order to finally find my maintenance to bulk. I wonder if adding the calories over such a long period of time had any effect on my body and is the reason for my current high consumption?
There's always an effect. Our bodies are tightly regulated systems.
But if you're asking if the process you went through potentially led to some big spike in metabolic rate... the answer is no. Anytime we rock a deficit, big or small, there is going to be some metabolic adaptation. How much depends on your level of fatness, genetics, etc. So, in theory, when you "refeed" there should be some uptick in metabolic rate in general.
It's a complex topic though. For one, our bodies are better at adapting to a deficit than they are at adapting to a surplus. Meaning our bodies will defend against a deficit more intensely than they will against a surplus.
Secondly, some people are more "thrifty" than others, meaning they respond poorly to deficits and surpluses relative to their "spend thrift" counterparts. Meaning when the former group eats a surplus, they tend to store energy more easily than the latter group. The latter group has a tendency to burn off excess energy by way of something referred to as NEAT... non-exercise activity thermogenesis.
Point being, how your body responds to increasing calories is going to vary pretty wildly depending on genetics, diet history, level of fatness, etc.
Thank you Steve for taking the time to answer. Very interesting stuff!0 -
ashleydawndill wrote: »I've never read your threads before, but your advice is fantastic and I've been following everything covered so far on this one. Thanks for the great thread!
Well thanks. I used to post a lot around here. Three kids later and a blossoming business put a quick end to that though. I'm trying to make a point to get on here more though. It's still my favorite community on the 'net.
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Liftng4Lis wrote: »Best thread ever!!!!
I don't know about that but it's quickly turning into another installment of the "lean women trying to get leaner" thread that went on forever a few years back. Which is fine.
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I have a question that you may not be able to answer (and not a lean women getting leaner question, although that thread was an interesting read too).
About 7 weeks ago I fell while hiking in the woods and bruised my tailbone (per my random pain in the rear, not an official diagnosis). I continued to do strong curves for about two weeks. During the lifts, I didn't really feel much pain, which was why I continued to lift, but things like going from sitting to laying down to get into position for glute bridges killed. I didn't actually cry in the gym, but it was close. Very bad pain.
After two weeks, I decided to call of lifting so that it would actually heal. Unfortunately, sitting for long periods of time also hurts. In the past three weeks, I've had my tonsils removed and gotten a stomach flu, so way too much sitting and lying down for my tastes. And sometimes it's sore even after walking. Basically, I can't find much that doesn't hurt.
It's now 7 weeks after injury and 5 weeks after stopping lifting, and it still hurts pretty bad. But, not lifting is seriously affecting me (I think). I'm having problems with binging and my moods. I know it's a mental problem, but I really attribute lifting to keeping me out of these cycles I've had all my life. I am feeling desperate to start lifting again, but I don't want to do myself more harm than good.
Do you think I need to hold off on lifting (I know you're not a doctor or a PT), and if so, any ideas on how long typical injuries like this last?0 -
Thanks for these threads, Steve - always informative.stroutman81 wrote: »I think the best article I can remember reading about this came from (the now infamous porn star) Lyle McDonald who wrote an awesome review in Alan Aragon's Research Review about metabolic damage.
Don't ask me what month if you're a subscriber... I can't remember and I'm WAY behind in reading my AARRs.
I believe this is the article you're referring to: bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/another-look-at-metabolic-damage.html/#more-9313
[Warning: certain sensitive souls may be offended by some generalizations he makes regarding females]
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why do my ankles, knees and feet make a symphony of clicking sounds when Im walking?0
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Hi, any ideas for workouts I can do in my house on days when I cannot get out? I'm looking at a long winter and I don't have a gym membership. I'm used to walking and biking, but will soon not be able to do much of that. I can do light yoga and lift hand weights. Mine are 5 pounds. I'm open to ideas, tv workouts, videos, internet workouts, whatever...just so I get some exercise on a daily basis.
Leslie Sansone has online vids that let you walk a mile or more. Great while watching the news.0 -
Hi Steve, Nice to meet you. I was wondering if you have any advice for a woman looking to get rid of belly fat after pregnancy. My 2nd son is 19 months old. I'm steadily losing a lb a week and seeing great results everywhere but the tummy. I've had 2 c-sections in the past 4 years.
People keep telling me that you can't lose from specific spots. I am in the overweight range still and haven't hit a healthy BMI yet. For exercise, I've been intimidated by weights and heavy lifting so I've stuck with running, eliptical, crunches, squats, and super basic weights on the bowflex type machines at the gym.
I still need to lose everywhere, but it would be nice not to look like I'm 3 months pregnant.0
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