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lemurcat12 wrote: »Loving this thread.
I'm almost to my initial goal: 5'3, 125, would like to be 120. About 25% BF (had a DXA), would like to be 22% or under, and eventually (after getting the fat somewhat lower) would like to start working on increasing muscle mass.
I freaked a little last month when I did my follow-up DXA and saw I'd lost some muscle mass. I have been continuing with a 20%/500 cal deficit in part because otherwise I feel like it gets lost in the logging errors (I was really sloppy over the holidays and I go out a couple times a week anyway), plus I've been aware that my TDEE is probably lower than it was since my favorite exercise is running outdoors and the winter is interfering.
I've been losing inconsistently, but basically stalled in December (predictable), 5-6 down in January (I logged consistently and ate around 1600 on average or a bit below that), and feel like I'm stalling again, but clearly too soon to say and possibly paranoia.
My goal is to lose the rest without compromising muscle mass if possible. So do I just have to accept that I need to reduce my deficit and track better? Or don't overthink it?
I've also been warned that the muscle mass issue could be related to too much cardio (I did a lot through the fall, was training for half marathons and am planning to train for tris, although my cardio lately has been more interval runs, biking, and exercise class stuff). I do strength train (was too haphazard, am trying to keep track of my weights better and push to increase them, have been doing a NRoL-based program).
A couple of important points:
1. It's February 5th. You lost 5-6 lbs in January. That's a LOT for someone your size. You are far from stalled.
2. Should you get deeper into February without much progress... sure, conservatively cutting calories a bit might be necessary. As I've noted elsewhere, a GENERAL range for fat loss is 10-12 cals/lb. You're above that right now... so chances are you'll have to cut eventually.
3. Yeah, sure... lots of running isn't conducive to muscle preservation. The adaptations associated with endurance based training lead to small, efficient muscles. That said, if you manage within a total setup that's tailored for muscle preservation (sufficient protein and progressive lifting), you should be fine. Unless of course you do just silly volumes of endurance work.0 -
Great. I'll go with the 12 cals/lb for a couple of weeks and see how things go. I think you'e right that to shift some body fat would potentially give me the shape I'm looking for. The muscles are there so just gotta reveal them and then decide if they're enough. If 12 doesn't cut it then I'll drop further and see.
The protein is .8-1.5g/lb? I've opened my diary if you get the chance to see what you think. Don't think I'm far off with the new calories and the macros I've been at for a couple of weeks. I might need to review my daily dose of PB for something less calorie dense!
Thanks again. Feels great to have some focus and a plan...suits my nature.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »Let me rephrase- I am curious to know your thoughts on the balance between striving to become lean while minimizing losses in strength and power endurance. How does one do this and what sort of progress, in your experience, is realistic?
Sorry... I need a bit more clarification. Are you actually taking about strength endurance and power endurance? Or strength, power, and endurance? The way I'm reading your question, it seems like the former. However, something tells me you're simply asking how to keep your strength while cutting.
I've done some investigating since asking this confusing question. And I can distill it to this - how can you modify heavy compound weightlifting sets to maximize training power endurance. And by power endurance I mean anaerobic endurance I think. I think that is the more correct term.
Can I ask why you're concerned about this strength attribute?
And are you strong? Meaning... have you invested considerable time building up strength with progressive resistance training?0 -
Am I strong? Loaded question. I have been wt training with progressive overload for 6 months. I am 140#. Yesterday I benched 80# for 8. I can do full back squats with 115#. DL isn't much better than that bc I am worried about my form and working on it. I can do two strict pull-ups in a row. So, not bad but I wouldn't call myself strong. I think I can get much much stronger. I care for climbing. Specifically long outdoor overhung stuff where you have to pull and pull and pull doing 50-100 moves on a pitch with limited rest. Some of that is grip strength anaerobic forearm training but before I started weight training consistently with progressive overload my pull (horizontal and vertical) often quit before my forearms.0
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Yey! I love this thread!0
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stroutman81 wrote: »girlviernes wrote: »Do you know if you can get keto flu type symptoms at 100-120g net carbs/day and these persist because you aren't actually going into/staying in ketosis?
I don't know. Sorry. It stands to reason that if you're constantly flirting with the threshold of ketosis, you're never fully adapting to it and each time you float over to the keto side of that threshold, you're left feeling crappy.
Thanks! I should think of some fitness questions
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Heya! Thanks so much for offering the opportunity to ask questions
If a person (maybe a woman person in her late 30s) is at a normal weight, can't lift heavy (because she's working around injuries) but has a high body fat % (and lower LBM), what is a good way to think about improving body composition in terms of nutrition?
Is it better to stay at or around maintenance calories, and aim to get what muscle gain/conservation is possible out of higher rep routines + cardio with high resistance, or would it make more sense to do more of a cut?
Thank you!0 -
Thanks! Yeah, I know I'm being silly about the perceived stall. I mostly need to focus on the lifting and otherwise stay the course and be patient, I think.0
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Another question (greedy!). What's your take on protein sources such as whey powder and protein bars? I have a sweet tooth and was satisfying that with a bar or two a day. Started to wonder if that was stalling weight loss so not had any for 3 weeks. No change on the scales so thinking that to hit my revised macros (with protein being the main goal) then adding a bar a day either for breakfast or as a snack wouldn't be such a bad thing? Just can't do savoury for breakfast!0
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Am I strong? Loaded question. I have been wt training with progressive overload for 6 months. I am 140#. Yesterday I benched 80# for 8. I can do full back squats with 115#. DL isn't much better than that bc I am worried about my form and working on it. I can do two strict pull-ups in a row. So, not bad but I wouldn't call myself strong. I think I can get much much stronger. I care for climbing. Specifically long outdoor overhung stuff where you have to pull and pull and pull doing 50-100 moves on a pitch with limited rest. Some of that is grip strength anaerobic forearm training but before I started weight training consistently with progressive overload my pull (horizontal and vertical) often quit before my forearms.
Okay, so the reason I asked is strength endurance and power endurance are different attributes. Power is strength displayed quickly. So any component of power is sort of silly to prioritize if you don't already have a solid foundation of strength.
I think that's what was throwing me off the most.
But frankly, building your relative strength via basic progressive strength training will make the management of your bodyweight much more manageable on the wall. Obviously the program should have a lot of leg and back work... but this should be factored into the bigger picture of your body, its weaknesses, and simply getting stronger all over.
In terms of the endurance side of things... the best way to build it is to do it. Get on the wall as frequently as possible. I do a lot of winter backpacking/mountaineering and my conditioning is always most dialed in when I come into season with a solid foundation of time on the hills replicating exactly what I'm going to be doing in the winter.
I also like to keep my resting HR in the high 50s going into big trips. Why? Our aerobic engine is what facilitates recovery between anaerobic bouts. It's the foundation that keeps everything above it (strength, power, etc) trucking along for extended periods of time. I train this quality with what's commonly referred to as cardiac output training. Any activity that keeps your HR constant at the 120-140 bpm range for extended periods of time (45-90 minutes).
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amandarunning wrote: »Great. I'll go with the 12 cals/lb for a couple of weeks and see how things go. I think you'e right that to shift some body fat would potentially give me the shape I'm looking for. The muscles are there so just gotta reveal them and then decide if they're enough. If 12 doesn't cut it then I'll drop further and see.
Exactly. I've had so many clients (especially male) come to me wanting to get bigger. Yet, when they send in their pictures they're rocking relatively high body fats. When I tell them I'd prefer that they cut first, they tend to get up in arms about getting smaller. With a little coaxing... they finally agree. Some wind up substantially smaller in terms of circumference. I'm dealing with a guy right now who came to me 195 and proud of his tight t-shirts. Never mind the fact he was soft. he's not 176, buying new pants, and most importantly surprised by how much bigger he looks... even though he's substantially smaller.
The illusion exposing muscles gives off is pretty incredible actually.The protein is .8-1.5g/lb?
If you're not overweight... yeah, this will work just fine. For those who are carrying around a lot of excess fat... based it on target body weight makes a little more sense.I've opened my diary if you get the chance to see what you think. Don't think I'm far off with the new calories and the macros I've been at for a couple of weeks. I might need to review my daily dose of PB for something less calorie dense!
Sorry, I don't get involved with looking at diaries. I don't care what foods you eat. It's your calories and macro totals that account for the vast majority of progress. Beyond that, you're dealing with things like nutrient timing, food quality, and supplements. These things are on the fringe of importance. Sadly, a bunch of people focus on them at the expense of the foundation, which, again, is calorie and macro totals.
I will say that I firmly believe it to be a good idea to have most of your food coming from whole, minimally processed sources. But most health conscious people are already doing this with their focus on lean meats, eggs, dairy, nuts/seeds,veggies, and fruits. In fact, I encounter more folks who take it to the other extreme and don't allow ANY room for treats and that's just silliness if you ask me.
If it's a personal preference/taste thing... well so be it. But if it's a deprivation thing simply for the name of perfection and being "clean,"... it's just stupid. Deprivation tends to beget anxiety, cravings, and rebellion.
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What is your opinion on meal timing and frequency from a performance stand point (ex - 3 meals vs 6 meals; post workout vs pre workout consumption of protein) while in a cut?
This assumes you are averaging 1g of protein per lb of lean body mass.0 -
Heya! Thanks so much for offering the opportunity to ask questions
If a person (maybe a woman person in her late 30s) is at a normal weight, can't lift heavy (because she's working around injuries) but has a high body fat % (and lower LBM), what is a good way to think about improving body composition in terms of nutrition?
Is it better to stay at or around maintenance calories, and aim to get what muscle gain/conservation is possible out of higher rep routines + cardio with high resistance, or would it make more sense to do more of a cut?
Thank you!
1. I'd want to know exactly what injuries are present and what specific contraindications are in place. Generally 1 or 2 injuries don't negate all heavy lifting. Sometimes... but generally not.
2. In terms of cutting vs. gaining... you don't want to focus on gaining muscle when your body fat is already high. Generally speaking, you wan to start muscle gain phases from a lean body comp. The reason's simple...
Muscle gain requires a calorie surplus, right? Well... the higher your body fat %, the more fat you'll gain while rocking a surplus. So it makes the most sense to get lean first and then, only after, ease into a surplus. It should be such that you're providing your body sufficient calories to facilitate the energy intensive process of muscle growth but no so much to where you're outpacing your bodies ability to built muscle and thus having the excess spill over to fat.
3. What builds muscle during a surplus or preserves muscle during a deficit depends a lot of training experience. If someone comes to me with a decade of progressive resistance training under their belt, being confined to what amounts to "cardio with weights" is likely not going to be conducive to muscle growth or preservation. But if someone comes to me with very little experience, their muscles are more sensitive - they're less discriminatory toward the type and amount of stimulus for growth/preservation.
So yeah, this is another wrinkle of context that's going to influence things, too.0 -
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Thanks! Yeah, I know I'm being silly about the perceived stall. I mostly need to focus on the lifting and otherwise stay the course and be patient, I think.
It's the process. Not the outcome. Nail down the process and the outcome will follow suit. People spend too much mental energy on the concept of their preferred destination - they wind up:
a) losing sight of the road and forget that the outcome is merely the sum of a lot of daily, small behaviors/choices
b) getting overly anxious and needlessly frustrated with how long it's taking and how far they've left to go
Learning to live in the now is about as powerful a skill one can develop.
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amandarunning wrote: »Another question (greedy!). What's your take on protein sources such as whey powder and protein bars? I have a sweet tooth and was satisfying that with a bar or two a day. Started to wonder if that was stalling weight loss so not had any for 3 weeks. No change on the scales so thinking that to hit my revised macros (with protein being the main goal) then adding a bar a day either for breakfast or as a snack wouldn't be such a bad thing? Just can't do savoury for breakfast!
Let me ask you this...
Why do you think powders and bars could stall your fat loss irrespective of calories?
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Stroutman Thanks for your advice. I'll carry on with my balanced lifting routine but it seems like I need more cardiac output training as you put it. Means more food probably which is going to be several kinds of awesome.0
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stroutman81 wrote: »amandarunning wrote: »Another question (greedy!). What's your take on protein sources such as whey powder and protein bars? I have a sweet tooth and was satisfying that with a bar or two a day. Started to wonder if that was stalling weight loss so not had any for 3 weeks. No change on the scales so thinking that to hit my revised macros (with protein being the main goal) then adding a bar a day either for breakfast or as a snack wouldn't be such a bad thing? Just can't do savoury for breakfast!
Let me ask you this...
Why do you think powders and bars could stall your fat loss irrespective of calories?
Good question. Firstly, clutching at straws (other than tightening my belt calorie-wise!) for the scales refusing to budge. Secondly, if I continue to use them then I never really get top-side of my sweet tooth. Not getting top-side of that can lead to eating more calories as it's about taste and craving rather than hunger/nutrition/macros. Plus not using them makes me focus on protein & macro splits from whole/less processed foods which has to be a better option?
Going cold turkey on them hasn't hurt too much plus my wallet appreciates the change!
Am I answering my own question? Possibly. I'm thinking they should be the exception rather than the norm??
Today has been a juggling act with calories and macros which I've enjoyed. Then part of me wonders about doing this every day for the rest of my life and that seems obsessive, strict, controlling etc etc. That suits my nature but sometimes also makes me sigh...0 -
What is your opinion on meal timing and frequency from a performance stand point (ex - 3 meals vs 6 meals; post workout vs pre workout consumption of protein) while in a cut?
This assumes you are averaging 1g of protein per lb of lean body mass.
I think there are benefits to certain meal timing strategies but I also think that a) it's individual and b) it plays a very small role relative to daily totals.
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Stroutman Thanks for your advice. I'll carry on with my balanced lifting routine but it seems like I need more cardiac output training as you put it. Means more food probably which is going to be several kinds of awesome.
Yuppers! Sometimes I feel a bit lazy heading into "preseason" of mountaineering/backpacking. I don't feel like adding to the exercise load. But one of the things that pulls me out of that funk is the greater TDEE which means greater freedom in terms of calorie intake.
Eating is awesome!
I'll say this, though. I periodize my plan of attack. It's not simply about identifying all the qualities that need training and than working toward building each simultaneously. Rather, it's about building a logical sequence of developing these attributes and balancing things accordingly. This is the art of performance programming, really.
We can't build all qualities at once, generally speaking.
One of the best books on the market about this stuff, even though it's geared toward fighters, is Joel Jamieson's Ultimate MMA Conditioning.0
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