20 year old girl wanting to gain muscle, need advice!
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1) so, a full body? How would that work 4 x a week?
Why not? Or could do half the workout twice a week like I said.2) why would you make that assumption.
I'm assuming intensity (RPE) is constant yes. Why would it not be?3) what about warm up sets - those do not count?
In a minor way they could possibly count a little bit towards volume but then there is the caveat of sufficient intensity which I've mentioned so most likely not. Also, wouldn't they be roughly the same in either workout? You're kind of scraping the barrel here. Do I have to spell out and justify every minute detail of saying that 5x5 is probably not the best way to go?4) re muscle gain - you are responding to a totally different point - which is the crux of the issue with you assumptions.
Do you think hypertrophy comes from an increase in training variables or just a defined magnitude?
The level of volume which produces hypertrophy is simply: more.
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ScottJTyler wrote: »
1) so, a full body? How would that work 4 x a week?
Why not? Or could do half the workout twice a week like I said.2) why would you make that assumption.
I'm assuming intensity (RPE) is constant yes. Why would it not be?3) what about warm up sets - those do not count?
In a minor way they could possibly count a little bit towards volume but then there is the caveat of sufficient intensity which I've mentioned so most likely not. Also, wouldn't they be roughly the same in either workout? You're kind of scraping the barrel here. Do I have to spell out and justify every minute detail of saying that 5x5 is probably not the best way to go?4) re muscle gain - you are responding to a totally different point - which is the crux of the issue with you assumptions.
Do you think hypertrophy comes from an increase in training variables or just a defined magnitude?
The level of volume which produces hypertrophy is simply: more.
1) Full body - not due to recovery. A 2 day split - do not really have an issue with this - but wouldn't a 3 x a week give more frequency - and you seem to like frequency.
2) Why are you even bringing RPE into it? That has nothing to do with the question.
3) Not minor at all. Hypertrophy happens at 50% above 1RM (arguably 30%). This is a minor point however as the following is the biggest misconception you have
4) Still missing the point. Muscle gain is limited, period. At a certain point, more volume =/= more muscle gain. You can only gain so much muscle in a day, no matter how much you work out/your volume/frequency or whatever. Women less than men.
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1) Full body - not due to recovery. A 2 day split - do not really have an issue with this - but wouldn't a 3 x a week give more frequency - and you seem to like frequency.
'Full body - not due to recovery' sorry I don't know what this means.2) Why are you even bringing RPE into it? That has nothing to do with the question.Also, you are assuming that the 192 - 360 reps hit all muscles with some degree of intensity for each of the lifts.
RPE is a way of defining/measuring intensity. Sometimes defined as % of 1RM but I don't like that definition as it doesn't take into account the proximity to failure.
This is partly why I am recommending higher frequency as if the workouts are more split up, the sets can be higher quality because that bodypart will be fresher.
If you're doing 20 sets in one day then the last few sets are not going to be very intense. But if split up into 4 lots of 5 on different days all 5 sets each time should be high quality.4) Still missing the point. Muscle gain is limited, period. At a certain point, more volume =/= more muscle gain. You can only gain so much muscle in a day, no matter how much you work out/your volume/frequency or whatever. Women less than men.
This is where some people fall down in their understanding of hypertrophy because they are considering it too acutely.
Muscle grows in response to an increase in stimulus over time.
If you are providing the same stimulus week in, week out, you will not grow.
The equation isn't 'a certain volume = muscle gain'
It is 'increase in volume = muscle gain'
Noobs can gain kilos of muscle in their first few weeks because the stimulus increase is so large. So yes you can build muscle quickly, you just need a sufficiently large jump in stimulus.
So I think your recommendation of decreasing the hypertrophy stimulus because daily muscle gain is limited is not a good one.
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You say "at a certain point" and this is true. At some point your recovery ability is the limiting factor. Incremental increases in hypertrophy for advanced lifters is more down to improving or adapting recovery ability (joints, nervous system etc.) and getting nutrition right. Since OP is only lifting 4x per week and working bodyparts 1x per week I'd say there's a lot of room for more volume while still being able to recover. Especially when increasing calories.-2
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ScottJTyler wrote: »
1) Full body - not due to recovery. A 2 day split - do not really have an issue with this - but wouldn't a 3 x a week give more frequency - and you seem to like frequency.
'Full body - not due to recovery' sorry I don't know what this means.2) Why are you even bringing RPE into it? That has nothing to do with the question.Also, you are assuming that the 192 - 360 reps hit all muscles with some degree of intensity for each of the lifts.
RPE is a way of defining/measuring intensity. Sometimes defined as % of 1RM but I don't like that definition as it doesn't take into account the proximity to failure.
This is partly why I am recommending higher frequency as if the workouts are more split up, the sets can be higher quality because that bodypart will be fresher.
If you're doing 20 sets in one day then the last few sets are not going to be very intense. But if split up into 4 lots of 5 on different days all 5 sets each time should be high quality.4) Still missing the point. Muscle gain is limited, period. At a certain point, more volume =/= more muscle gain. You can only gain so much muscle in a day, no matter how much you work out/your volume/frequency or whatever. Women less than men.
This is where some people fall down in their understanding of hypertrophy because they are considering it too acutely.
Muscle grows in response to an increase in stimulus over time.
If you are providing the same stimulus week in, week out, you will not grow.
The equation isn't 'a certain volume = muscle gain'
It is 'increase in volume = muscle gain'
Noobs can gain kilos of muscle in their first few weeks because the stimulus increase is so large. So yes you can build muscle quickly, you just need a sufficiently large jump in stimulus.
So I think your recommendation of decreasing the hypertrophy stimulus because daily muscle gain is limited is not a good one.
Full body is not good to back to back generally.
lol, I know what RPE is - its the context that you were applying it in that was not making sense, and the way you are explaining/applying it now is misguided. Not disagreeing with higher frequency and no-one in here has that I can recall.
OP is not in her first few week. Women cannot gain kilos in any event in that time - however, its a totally moot point in this context.
You are still not getting that volume does no directly translate into muscle gain at all ends of the spectrum. There is a cap. I do not know any other way to explain this to you.
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ScottJTyler wrote: »
Missed this one.
Please try to read what I am actually typing and apply context.
What I am saying is that more volume can mean no actual muscle gain as you have maxed out and then the more volume = more fatigue which can = less effective workouts.
More is not always more.
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Let me put this in simple terms and then I am done as I am kind of bored of repeating myself and the point being overlooked or ignored entirely.
- Muscle gains are limited and there is a diminishing return on providing more stimuli than the body can utilize for gaining muscle. Adding more and more volume and/or frequency does not automatically equate into more and more muscle gain. [And I am not referring to recovery here, even though recovery is an important factor to consider]
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don't forget to increase weight.0
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Let me put this in simple terms and then I am done as I am kind of bored of repeating myself and the point being overlooked or ignored entirely.
- Muscle gains are limited and there is a diminishing return on providing more stimuli than the body can utilize for gaining muscle. Adding more and more volume and/or frequency does not automatically equate into more and more muscle gain. [And I am not referring to recovery here, even though recovery is an important factor to consider]
So you think someone lifting 4 days a week (one of them just arms) and each bodypart once per week is at their peak of the maximum volume they can ever get benefit from and should drop down to 5x5. OK I see now.
The question was 'I am doing this amount of volume and can't progress what should I do?'
and your response is 'Do less volume, less work=more gains!'. If only.
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ScottJTyler wrote: »Let me put this in simple terms and then I am done as I am kind of bored of repeating myself and the point being overlooked or ignored entirely.
- Muscle gains are limited and there is a diminishing return on providing more stimuli than the body can utilize for gaining muscle. Adding more and more volume and/or frequency does not automatically equate into more and more muscle gain. [And I am not referring to recovery here, even though recovery is an important factor to consider]
So you think someone lifting 4 days a week (one of them just arms) and each bodypart once per week is at their peak of the maximum volume they can ever get benefit from and should drop down to 5x5. OK I see now.
The question was 'I am doing this amount of volume and can't progress what should I do?'
and your response is 'Do less volume, less work=more gains!'. If only.
Wut??
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<experiences flashbacks of a certain coach>-1
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I love it that the new fish isn't getting it, even when explained in small terms. >_<-1
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ScottJTyler wrote: »Let me put this in simple terms and then I am done as I am kind of bored of repeating myself and the point being overlooked or ignored entirely.
- Muscle gains are limited and there is a diminishing return on providing more stimuli than the body can utilize for gaining muscle. Adding more and more volume and/or frequency does not automatically equate into more and more muscle gain. [And I am not referring to recovery here, even though recovery is an important factor to consider]
So you think someone lifting 4 days a week (one of them just arms) and each bodypart once per week is at their peak of the maximum volume they can ever get benefit from and should drop down to 5x5. OK I see now.
The question was 'I am doing this amount of volume and can't progress what should I do?'
and your response is 'Do less volume, less work=more gains!'. If only.
It's a good thing yer pretty.0 -
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PikaKnight wrote: »<experiences flashbacks of a certain coach>
I'm ready, are you ready?
Ok I even had to lol at that one.....
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Starting to see a trend in MFP forums.
Q. I've got a question about hypertrophy training
A1. Do Stronglifts 5x5
A2. Yeah I agree with that guy or maybe do Wendler
A3. Why not do something other than strength training?
A4. 'NO YOU'RE WRONG 5x5 IS THE BEST FOR EVERYTHING'
Any other suggestion or criticism of beginner programs gets shot down by regulars.
You're all very, very established on these forums and have spouted the same stuff for so long you don't want someone coming in and telling you that something else could be better. Fine, good luck to you. You've chased me out.-3 -
ScottJTyler wrote: »Starting to see a trend in MFP forums.
Q. I've got a question about hypertrophy training
A1. Do Stronglifts 5x5
A2. Yeah I agree with that guy or maybe do Wendler
A3. Why not do something other than strength training?
A4. 'NO YOU'RE WRONG 5x5 IS THE BEST FOR EVERYTHING'
Any other suggestion or criticism of beginner programs gets shot down by regulars.
You're all very, very established on these forums and have spouted the same stuff for so long you don't want someone coming in and telling you that something else could be better. Fine, good luck to you. You've chased me out.
lmfao...I actually never recommended it. Try again - and maybe try applying some reading comprehension and context this time.
You also did not actually recommend a program...just spreading what she is doing...no note or suggestions re progression of specificity ..just..coz volume apparently trumps errything, and muscle gains are only limited to the volume you can get in...errr..but frequency too.
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