Fed Up Documentary
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GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Alright. I need some clarification here after seeing how much the thread blew up...
I saw the documentary, and it actually resonated as quite true with me, and I'd like to think that I am not a completely uninformed and ignorant person. Rather the contrary, as nutrition was always a big topic in my family. (and before someone asks me to open my diary – I can, but I got my wisdom teeth pulled two weeks ago and currently don't have access to a kitchen or a scale, and thus my feeding pattern is far from representative not to mention that I am guesstimating a lot)
Some parts of it were blatantly sensationalist, and I found the way exercise and calories in/out were presented problematic, as one could interpret it as "exercise is pointless and I can eat whatever I want as long as I cut sugar".
However, the rest of the core theses – the fact that processed foods are bad for one's health (and by processed foods I mean pre-processed such as ramen and eventually refined sugars and cereals) and that excess sugar is a big issue in modern world didn't sound as far-fetched. Neither that sugar may very well be addictive, considering not only the effects that is has had on rats* but also that due to its characteristics similar to morphine it is sometimes used as an anaesthetic on premature babies**. Moreover, none of these facts were really new either, so I am not sure what is wrong with that thesis?
Finally, I the way I saw it, the documentary wasn't necessarily aimed at those who already know how to eat healthy and choose to eat crap, but was trying to highlight how a lot of these families with obese kids simply do not know how to eat and properly feed themselves. Which is kind of a problem – I know it's easy to say "but these days everybody has an Internet connection", but then again, the trouble with the Internet is that in order to use it, you also need to know how to filter the information thrown at you. And if you do not have a certain educational background you just are not able to do so.martyqueen52 wrote: »http://nutritionstudies.org/fed-up-with-fed-up/ ..... dumb documentary and anyone who believes its.... loaded *kitten* is an idiot, period.
I agree partly with what is written in the article, about Fed Up being reductive in many ways, but I don't see how the documentary speaks against a Whole Food and Plant Based diet? It seemed to be the contrary for me?
So my question is – am I missing some important piece of context to understand why this documentary in particular is so much hated?
Many of us have science backgrounds and we do not let pseudo-science and hype go unchallenged since it is in the nature of those who value the emprical method to challenge interpretation of the facts; this is how science has always evolved and those who are not well trained in science are the ones who generally take easy offence to this approach. It's not that we are being mean, as often we are accused of, but trying to actually indicate what is really out there as fact versus what is out there that is really not accurate and highly misleading.
<b>The facts do not support the idea that sugar is addictive like cocaine or heroine so you will be challenged on this if you state it. </b> If one chooses to avoid added sugar than this is fine but if you try to justify it through statements of facts that do not meet a certain standard of evidence you will be challenged on them. This documentary is known to be a collection of bias and misinformation and this is what we challenge.
Lol, sorry but worded like that it kind of sounds like a threat. ^^ (I know it's not, I just found that amusing)
Ok, I understand that. On the other hand, going through the discussion, I see very few comments offering a scientific explanation and links to scientific articles giving counterarguments, and plenty stating that "if THAT is the source you are getting information from, you are not to be taken seriously" and general remarks about why a person is wrong.
I don't think I ever stated sugar is addictive in the same way cocaine and heroine is. What I said was that it was shown to have addictive effects in lab rats and, in one study, shown to surpass cocaine reward*. Now, I am well aware that this does not necessarily translate to humans, but it is an indicator that it might.
As for the documentary, you state that "it is known" to be a collection of bias and misinformation. No, I am sorry, it is not know, evidently. Otherwise I would not be asking about it.
Now, I have seen some articles arguing against the documentary, which were however in some way financed or associated with large food corporations and one, from Sweetenerstudies.com seems to be associated with the Corn Refiner's Association. Pardon me if I take those with a grain of salt. 
Also, please know that I have not read the book, so I am analysing the documentary on its own terms.
Would you have any studies at hand that speak against sugar being addictive and scientific reviews on the documentary? (I have been looking for the latter and have not found any)
As I stated, I realise that the documentary is far from being hard, scientific facts and is problematic at times. However, the basic thesis – eat less sugar and processed products – resonates with me as basic common sense and far from the usual promotion of fad diets. Which is why I am confused as why this documentary in particular is attracting so much hate.
*http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000698
There have been credible links posted in this thread already that show the issues with the claims made in the documentary.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/does-the-movie-fed-up-make-sense/
http://www.foodinsight.org/FedUp-review
Thank you! I must have missed those two.
I swear every time I clicked on a link I kept ending up on some corporation-sponsoder web side. 0 -
GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Alright. I need some clarification here after seeing how much the thread blew up...
I saw the documentary, and it actually resonated as quite true with me, and I'd like to think that I am not a completely uninformed and ignorant person. Rather the contrary, as nutrition was always a big topic in my family. (and before someone asks me to open my diary – I can, but I got my wisdom teeth pulled two weeks ago and currently don't have access to a kitchen or a scale, and thus my feeding pattern is far from representative not to mention that I am guesstimating a lot)
Some parts of it were blatantly sensationalist, and I found the way exercise and calories in/out were presented problematic, as one could interpret it as "exercise is pointless and I can eat whatever I want as long as I cut sugar".
However, the rest of the core theses – the fact that processed foods are bad for one's health (and by processed foods I mean pre-processed such as ramen and eventually refined sugars and cereals) and that excess sugar is a big issue in modern world didn't sound as far-fetched. Neither that sugar may very well be addictive, considering not only the effects that is has had on rats* but also that due to its characteristics similar to morphine it is sometimes used as an anaesthetic on premature babies**. Moreover, none of these facts were really new either, so I am not sure what is wrong with that thesis?
Finally, I the way I saw it, the documentary wasn't necessarily aimed at those who already know how to eat healthy and choose to eat crap, but was trying to highlight how a lot of these families with obese kids simply do not know how to eat and properly feed themselves. Which is kind of a problem – I know it's easy to say "but these days everybody has an Internet connection", but then again, the trouble with the Internet is that in order to use it, you also need to know how to filter the information thrown at you. And if you do not have a certain educational background you just are not able to do so.martyqueen52 wrote: »http://nutritionstudies.org/fed-up-with-fed-up/ ..... dumb documentary and anyone who believes its.... loaded *kitten* is an idiot, period.
I agree partly with what is written in the article, about Fed Up being reductive in many ways, but I don't see how the documentary speaks against a Whole Food and Plant Based diet? It seemed to be the contrary for me?
So my question is – am I missing some important piece of context to understand why this documentary in particular is so much hated?
Many of us have science backgrounds and we do not let pseudo-science and hype go unchallenged since it is in the nature of those who value the emprical method to challenge interpretation of the facts; this is how science has always evolved and those who are not well trained in science are the ones who generally take easy offence to this approach. It's not that we are being mean, as often we are accused of, but trying to actually indicate what is really out there as fact versus what is out there that is really not accurate and highly misleading.
<b>The facts do not support the idea that sugar is addictive like cocaine or heroine so you will be challenged on this if you state it. </b> If one chooses to avoid added sugar than this is fine but if you try to justify it through statements of facts that do not meet a certain standard of evidence you will be challenged on them. This documentary is known to be a collection of bias and misinformation and this is what we challenge.
Lol, sorry but worded like that it kind of sounds like a threat. ^^ (I know it's not, I just found that amusing)
Ok, I understand that. On the other hand, going through the discussion, I see very few comments offering a scientific explanation and links to scientific articles giving counterarguments, and plenty stating that "if THAT is the source you are getting information from, you are not to be taken seriously" and general remarks about why a person is wrong.
I don't think I ever stated sugar is addictive in the same way cocaine and heroine is. What I said was that it was shown to have addictive effects in lab rats and, in one study, shown to surpass cocaine reward*. Now, I am well aware that this does not necessarily translate to humans, but it is an indicator that it might.
As for the documentary, you state that "it is known" to be a collection of bias and misinformation. No, I am sorry, it is not know, evidently. Otherwise I would not be asking about it. Now, I have seen some articles arguing against the documentary, which were however in some way financed or associated with large food corporations and one, from Sweetenerstudies.com seems to be associated with the Corn Refiner's Association. Pardon me if I take those with a grain of salt.
Also, please know that I have not read the book, so I am analysing the documentary on its own terms.
Would you have any studies at hand that speak against sugar being addictive and scientific reviews on the documentary? (I have been looking for the latter and have not found any)
As I stated, I realise that the documentary is far from being hard, scientific facts and is problematic at times. However, the basic thesis – eat less sugar and processed products – resonates with me as basic common sense and far from the usual promotion of fad diets. Which is why I am confused as why this documentary in particular is attracting so much hate.
*http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000698
LOL, guess it could sound like a threat but a challenge is normally just a request to lay out your facts for examination. This is why some of the studies and sources are already discounted since we have seen them before and we have found them lacking, i.e. they are motivated by something other than disinterested investigation or have been discredited for weak methodologies etc.
As for the evidence that sugar is not addictive, I will cop out for the time since I am at work and don't have a lot of time to link them all, but I do know that there are others here that have them locked and loaded and they have been posted numerous times.
I certainly support eating healthfully and higly processed foods are at the top of the list for reduction or removal if that is your goal, but remember that they also contain a lot of fat and since we don't demonize fat we should extend the same to sugar as well since it is no worse if eaten in moderation.
ETA, oh I didn't accuse you directly of stating that sugar was addictive like a drug but that does come up a lot so that's why I mentioned that a few times.
Alright, I'll wait for the people that have them "locked and loaded."
I'm afraid I am myself packed with work myself and thus do not have the time to go on a 30-page hunt.
Well, I am not looking to demonise sugar, really. I was just majorly confused as to why everyone was trying to demonise this documentary in particular. What I extrapolate for what you are saying though is that there is a risk is that if one does not look at it critically, it may very well end up with people demonising sugar. Which could be true, I guess, and I assume some people have if it's such a hot topic. I just did not see it in that way at all.
In any case, thanks for the patience and the reply.
my main complaint is that people watch/read garbage like this and think "oh, I am fat because of all the sugar;" when in reality the reason is that people are fat from overeating and lack of movement. Eliminating sugar has nothing to do with weight loss, unless one has a medical condition.
Go back and review the posts in this thread about sugar causing obesity and sugar being comported to heroin...
Ugh, ok, I have some time while waiting at the airport.0 -
GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Alright. I need some clarification here after seeing how much the thread blew up...
I saw the documentary, and it actually resonated as quite true with me, and I'd like to think that I am not a completely uninformed and ignorant person. Rather the contrary, as nutrition was always a big topic in my family. (and before someone asks me to open my diary – I can, but I got my wisdom teeth pulled two weeks ago and currently don't have access to a kitchen or a scale, and thus my feeding pattern is far from representative not to mention that I am guesstimating a lot)
Some parts of it were blatantly sensationalist, and I found the way exercise and calories in/out were presented problematic, as one could interpret it as "exercise is pointless and I can eat whatever I want as long as I cut sugar".
However, the rest of the core theses – the fact that processed foods are bad for one's health (and by processed foods I mean pre-processed such as ramen and eventually refined sugars and cereals) and that excess sugar is a big issue in modern world didn't sound as far-fetched. Neither that sugar may very well be addictive, considering not only the effects that is has had on rats* but also that due to its characteristics similar to morphine it is sometimes used as an anaesthetic on premature babies**. Moreover, none of these facts were really new either, so I am not sure what is wrong with that thesis?
Finally, I the way I saw it, the documentary wasn't necessarily aimed at those who already know how to eat healthy and choose to eat crap, but was trying to highlight how a lot of these families with obese kids simply do not know how to eat and properly feed themselves. Which is kind of a problem – I know it's easy to say "but these days everybody has an Internet connection", but then again, the trouble with the Internet is that in order to use it, you also need to know how to filter the information thrown at you. And if you do not have a certain educational background you just are not able to do so.martyqueen52 wrote: »http://nutritionstudies.org/fed-up-with-fed-up/ ..... dumb documentary and anyone who believes its.... loaded *kitten* is an idiot, period.
I agree partly with what is written in the article, about Fed Up being reductive in many ways, but I don't see how the documentary speaks against a Whole Food and Plant Based diet? It seemed to be the contrary for me?
So my question is – am I missing some important piece of context to understand why this documentary in particular is so much hated?
Many of us have science backgrounds and we do not let pseudo-science and hype go unchallenged since it is in the nature of those who value the emprical method to challenge interpretation of the facts; this is how science has always evolved and those who are not well trained in science are the ones who generally take easy offence to this approach. It's not that we are being mean, as often we are accused of, but trying to actually indicate what is really out there as fact versus what is out there that is really not accurate and highly misleading.
<b>The facts do not support the idea that sugar is addictive like cocaine or heroine so you will be challenged on this if you state it. </b> If one chooses to avoid added sugar than this is fine but if you try to justify it through statements of facts that do not meet a certain standard of evidence you will be challenged on them. This documentary is known to be a collection of bias and misinformation and this is what we challenge.
Lol, sorry but worded like that it kind of sounds like a threat. ^^ (I know it's not, I just found that amusing)
Ok, I understand that. On the other hand, going through the discussion, I see very few comments offering a scientific explanation and links to scientific articles giving counterarguments, and plenty stating that "if THAT is the source you are getting information from, you are not to be taken seriously" and general remarks about why a person is wrong.
I don't think I ever stated sugar is addictive in the same way cocaine and heroine is. What I said was that it was shown to have addictive effects in lab rats and, in one study, shown to surpass cocaine reward*. Now, I am well aware that this does not necessarily translate to humans, but it is an indicator that it might.
As for the documentary, you state that "it is known" to be a collection of bias and misinformation. No, I am sorry, it is not know, evidently. Otherwise I would not be asking about it. Now, I have seen some articles arguing against the documentary, which were however in some way financed or associated with large food corporations and one, from Sweetenerstudies.com seems to be associated with the Corn Refiner's Association. Pardon me if I take those with a grain of salt.
Also, please know that I have not read the book, so I am analysing the documentary on its own terms.
Would you have any studies at hand that speak against sugar being addictive and scientific reviews on the documentary? (I have been looking for the latter and have not found any)
As I stated, I realise that the documentary is far from being hard, scientific facts and is problematic at times. However, the basic thesis – eat less sugar and processed products – resonates with me as basic common sense and far from the usual promotion of fad diets. Which is why I am confused as why this documentary in particular is attracting so much hate.
*http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000698
LOL, guess it could sound like a threat but a challenge is normally just a request to lay out your facts for examination. This is why some of the studies and sources are already discounted since we have seen them before and we have found them lacking, i.e. they are motivated by something other than disinterested investigation or have been discredited for weak methodologies etc.
As for the evidence that sugar is not addictive, I will cop out for the time since I am at work and don't have a lot of time to link them all, but I do know that there are others here that have them locked and loaded and they have been posted numerous times.
I certainly support eating healthfully and higly processed foods are at the top of the list for reduction or removal if that is your goal, but remember that they also contain a lot of fat and since we don't demonize fat we should extend the same to sugar as well since it is no worse if eaten in moderation.
ETA, oh I didn't accuse you directly of stating that sugar was addictive like a drug but that does come up a lot so that's why I mentioned that a few times.
Alright, I'll wait for the people that have them "locked and loaded." I'm afraid I am myself packed with work myself and thus do not have the time to go on a 30-page hunt.
Well, I am not looking to demonise sugar, really. I was just majorly confused as to why everyone was trying to demonise this documentary in particular. What I extrapolate for what you are saying though is that there is a risk is that if one does not look at it critically, it may very well end up with people demonising sugar. Which could be true, I guess, and I assume some people have if it's such a hot topic. I just did not see it in that way at all.
In any case, thanks for the patience and the reply.
my main complaint is that people watch/read garbage like this and think "oh, I am fat because of all the sugar;" when in reality the reason is that people are fat from overeating and lack of movement. Eliminating sugar has nothing to do with weight loss, unless one has a medical condition.
Go back and review the posts in this thread about sugar causing obesity and sugar being comported to heroin...
Alright, I just found it. O.O I don't even know what to say. I had a similar conversation with my boyfriend last night. We were being sarcastic.
I am now going to add a disclaimer to my previous post in which I mention opiates...
0 -
GingerbreadCandy wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Alright. I need some clarification here after seeing how much the thread blew up...
I saw the documentary, and it actually resonated as quite true with me, and I'd like to think that I am not a completely uninformed and ignorant person. Rather the contrary, as nutrition was always a big topic in my family. (and before someone asks me to open my diary – I can, but I got my wisdom teeth pulled two weeks ago and currently don't have access to a kitchen or a scale, and thus my feeding pattern is far from representative not to mention that I am guesstimating a lot)
Some parts of it were blatantly sensationalist, and I found the way exercise and calories in/out were presented problematic, as one could interpret it as "exercise is pointless and I can eat whatever I want as long as I cut sugar".
However, the rest of the core theses – the fact that processed foods are bad for one's health (and by processed foods I mean pre-processed such as ramen and eventually refined sugars and cereals) and that excess sugar is a big issue in modern world didn't sound as far-fetched. Neither that sugar may very well be addictive, considering not only the effects that is has had on rats* but also that due to its characteristics similar to morphine it is sometimes used as an anaesthetic on premature babies**. Moreover, none of these facts were really new either, so I am not sure what is wrong with that thesis?
Finally, I the way I saw it, the documentary wasn't necessarily aimed at those who already know how to eat healthy and choose to eat crap, but was trying to highlight how a lot of these families with obese kids simply do not know how to eat and properly feed themselves. Which is kind of a problem – I know it's easy to say "but these days everybody has an Internet connection", but then again, the trouble with the Internet is that in order to use it, you also need to know how to filter the information thrown at you. And if you do not have a certain educational background you just are not able to do so.martyqueen52 wrote: »http://nutritionstudies.org/fed-up-with-fed-up/ ..... dumb documentary and anyone who believes its.... loaded *kitten* is an idiot, period.
I agree partly with what is written in the article, about Fed Up being reductive in many ways, but I don't see how the documentary speaks against a Whole Food and Plant Based diet? It seemed to be the contrary for me?
So my question is – am I missing some important piece of context to understand why this documentary in particular is so much hated?
Many of us have science backgrounds and we do not let pseudo-science and hype go unchallenged since it is in the nature of those who value the emprical method to challenge interpretation of the facts; this is how science has always evolved and those who are not well trained in science are the ones who generally take easy offence to this approach. It's not that we are being mean, as often we are accused of, but trying to actually indicate what is really out there as fact versus what is out there that is really not accurate and highly misleading.
<b>The facts do not support the idea that sugar is addictive like cocaine or heroine so you will be challenged on this if you state it. </b> If one chooses to avoid added sugar than this is fine but if you try to justify it through statements of facts that do not meet a certain standard of evidence you will be challenged on them. This documentary is known to be a collection of bias and misinformation and this is what we challenge.
Lol, sorry but worded like that it kind of sounds like a threat. ^^ (I know it's not, I just found that amusing)
Ok, I understand that. On the other hand, going through the discussion, I see very few comments offering a scientific explanation and links to scientific articles giving counterarguments, and plenty stating that "if THAT is the source you are getting information from, you are not to be taken seriously" and general remarks about why a person is wrong.
I don't think I ever stated sugar is addictive in the same way cocaine and heroine is. What I said was that it was shown to have addictive effects in lab rats and, in one study, shown to surpass cocaine reward*. Now, I am well aware that this does not necessarily translate to humans, but it is an indicator that it might.
As for the documentary, you state that "it is known" to be a collection of bias and misinformation. No, I am sorry, it is not know, evidently. Otherwise I would not be asking about it. Now, I have seen some articles arguing against the documentary, which were however in some way financed or associated with large food corporations and one, from Sweetenerstudies.com seems to be associated with the Corn Refiner's Association. Pardon me if I take those with a grain of salt.
Also, please know that I have not read the book, so I am analysing the documentary on its own terms.
Would you have any studies at hand that speak against sugar being addictive and scientific reviews on the documentary? (I have been looking for the latter and have not found any)
As I stated, I realise that the documentary is far from being hard, scientific facts and is problematic at times. However, the basic thesis – eat less sugar and processed products – resonates with me as basic common sense and far from the usual promotion of fad diets. Which is why I am confused as why this documentary in particular is attracting so much hate.
*http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000698
LOL, guess it could sound like a threat but a challenge is normally just a request to lay out your facts for examination. This is why some of the studies and sources are already discounted since we have seen them before and we have found them lacking, i.e. they are motivated by something other than disinterested investigation or have been discredited for weak methodologies etc.
As for the evidence that sugar is not addictive, I will cop out for the time since I am at work and don't have a lot of time to link them all, but I do know that there are others here that have them locked and loaded and they have been posted numerous times.
I certainly support eating healthfully and higly processed foods are at the top of the list for reduction or removal if that is your goal, but remember that they also contain a lot of fat and since we don't demonize fat we should extend the same to sugar as well since it is no worse if eaten in moderation.
ETA, oh I didn't accuse you directly of stating that sugar was addictive like a drug but that does come up a lot so that's why I mentioned that a few times.
Alright, I'll wait for the people that have them "locked and loaded." I'm afraid I am myself packed with work myself and thus do not have the time to go on a 30-page hunt.
Well, I am not looking to demonise sugar, really. I was just majorly confused as to why everyone was trying to demonise this documentary in particular. What I extrapolate for what you are saying though is that there is a risk is that if one does not look at it critically, it may very well end up with people demonising sugar. Which could be true, I guess, and I assume some people have if it's such a hot topic. I just did not see it in that way at all.
In any case, thanks for the patience and the reply.
my main complaint is that people watch/read garbage like this and think "oh, I am fat because of all the sugar;" when in reality the reason is that people are fat from overeating and lack of movement. Eliminating sugar has nothing to do with weight loss, unless one has a medical condition.
Go back and review the posts in this thread about sugar causing obesity and sugar being comported to heroin...
Alright, I just found it. O.O I don't even know what to say. I had a similar conversation with my boyfriend last night. We were being sarcastic.
I am now going to add a disclaimer to my previous post in which I mention opiates...
I hope you brought enough opiates for the entire class. 0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Alright. I need some clarification here after seeing how much the thread blew up...
I saw the documentary, and it actually resonated as quite true with me, and I'd like to think that I am not a completely uninformed and ignorant person. Rather the contrary, as nutrition was always a big topic in my family. (and before someone asks me to open my diary – I can, but I got my wisdom teeth pulled two weeks ago and currently don't have access to a kitchen or a scale, and thus my feeding pattern is far from representative not to mention that I am guesstimating a lot)
Some parts of it were blatantly sensationalist, and I found the way exercise and calories in/out were presented problematic, as one could interpret it as "exercise is pointless and I can eat whatever I want as long as I cut sugar".
However, the rest of the core theses – the fact that processed foods are bad for one's health (and by processed foods I mean pre-processed such as ramen and eventually refined sugars and cereals) and that excess sugar is a big issue in modern world didn't sound as far-fetched. Neither that sugar may very well be addictive, considering not only the effects that is has had on rats* but also that due to its characteristics similar to morphine it is sometimes used as an anaesthetic on premature babies**. Moreover, none of these facts were really new either, so I am not sure what is wrong with that thesis?
Finally, I the way I saw it, the documentary wasn't necessarily aimed at those who already know how to eat healthy and choose to eat crap, but was trying to highlight how a lot of these families with obese kids simply do not know how to eat and properly feed themselves. Which is kind of a problem – I know it's easy to say "but these days everybody has an Internet connection", but then again, the trouble with the Internet is that in order to use it, you also need to know how to filter the information thrown at you. And if you do not have a certain educational background you just are not able to do so.martyqueen52 wrote: »http://nutritionstudies.org/fed-up-with-fed-up/ ..... dumb documentary and anyone who believes its.... loaded *kitten* is an idiot, period.
I agree partly with what is written in the article, about Fed Up being reductive in many ways, but I don't see how the documentary speaks against a Whole Food and Plant Based diet? It seemed to be the contrary for me?
So my question is – am I missing some important piece of context to understand why this documentary in particular is so much hated?
Many of us have science backgrounds and we do not let pseudo-science and hype go unchallenged since it is in the nature of those who value the emprical method to challenge interpretation of the facts; this is how science has always evolved and those who are not well trained in science are the ones who generally take easy offence to this approach. It's not that we are being mean, as often we are accused of, but trying to actually indicate what is really out there as fact versus what is out there that is really not accurate and highly misleading.
<b>The facts do not support the idea that sugar is addictive like cocaine or heroine so you will be challenged on this if you state it. </b> If one chooses to avoid added sugar than this is fine but if you try to justify it through statements of facts that do not meet a certain standard of evidence you will be challenged on them. This documentary is known to be a collection of bias and misinformation and this is what we challenge.
Lol, sorry but worded like that it kind of sounds like a threat. ^^ (I know it's not, I just found that amusing)
Ok, I understand that. On the other hand, going through the discussion, I see very few comments offering a scientific explanation and links to scientific articles giving counterarguments, and plenty stating that "if THAT is the source you are getting information from, you are not to be taken seriously" and general remarks about why a person is wrong.
I don't think I ever stated sugar is addictive in the same way cocaine and heroine is. What I said was that it was shown to have addictive effects in lab rats and, in one study, shown to surpass cocaine reward*. Now, I am well aware that this does not necessarily translate to humans, but it is an indicator that it might.
As for the documentary, you state that "it is known" to be a collection of bias and misinformation. No, I am sorry, it is not know, evidently. Otherwise I would not be asking about it. Now, I have seen some articles arguing against the documentary, which were however in some way financed or associated with large food corporations and one, from Sweetenerstudies.com seems to be associated with the Corn Refiner's Association. Pardon me if I take those with a grain of salt.
Also, please know that I have not read the book, so I am analysing the documentary on its own terms.
Would you have any studies at hand that speak against sugar being addictive and scientific reviews on the documentary? (I have been looking for the latter and have not found any)
As I stated, I realise that the documentary is far from being hard, scientific facts and is problematic at times. However, the basic thesis – eat less sugar and processed products – resonates with me as basic common sense and far from the usual promotion of fad diets. Which is why I am confused as why this documentary in particular is attracting so much hate.
*http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000698
LOL, guess it could sound like a threat but a challenge is normally just a request to lay out your facts for examination. This is why some of the studies and sources are already discounted since we have seen them before and we have found them lacking, i.e. they are motivated by something other than disinterested investigation or have been discredited for weak methodologies etc.
As for the evidence that sugar is not addictive, I will cop out for the time since I am at work and don't have a lot of time to link them all, but I do know that there are others here that have them locked and loaded and they have been posted numerous times.
I certainly support eating healthfully and higly processed foods are at the top of the list for reduction or removal if that is your goal, but remember that they also contain a lot of fat and since we don't demonize fat we should extend the same to sugar as well since it is no worse if eaten in moderation.
ETA, oh I didn't accuse you directly of stating that sugar was addictive like a drug but that does come up a lot so that's why I mentioned that a few times.
Alright, I'll wait for the people that have them "locked and loaded." I'm afraid I am myself packed with work myself and thus do not have the time to go on a 30-page hunt.
Well, I am not looking to demonise sugar, really. I was just majorly confused as to why everyone was trying to demonise this documentary in particular. What I extrapolate for what you are saying though is that there is a risk is that if one does not look at it critically, it may very well end up with people demonising sugar. Which could be true, I guess, and I assume some people have if it's such a hot topic. I just did not see it in that way at all.
In any case, thanks for the patience and the reply.
my main complaint is that people watch/read garbage like this and think "oh, I am fat because of all the sugar;" when in reality the reason is that people are fat from overeating and lack of movement. Eliminating sugar has nothing to do with weight loss, unless one has a medical condition.
Go back and review the posts in this thread about sugar causing obesity and sugar being comported to heroin...
Alright, I just found it. O.O I don't even know what to say. I had a similar conversation with my boyfriend last night. We were being sarcastic.
I am now going to add a disclaimer to my previous post in which I mention opiates...
I hope you brought enough opiates for the entire class.
No, but... do you realise? That means every parent an unwilling drug dealer every halloween!
0 -
GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Alright. I need some clarification here after seeing how much the thread blew up...
I saw the documentary, and it actually resonated as quite true with me, and I'd like to think that I am not a completely uninformed and ignorant person. Rather the contrary, as nutrition was always a big topic in my family. (and before someone asks me to open my diary – I can, but I got my wisdom teeth pulled two weeks ago and currently don't have access to a kitchen or a scale, and thus my feeding pattern is far from representative not to mention that I am guesstimating a lot)
Some parts of it were blatantly sensationalist, and I found the way exercise and calories in/out were presented problematic, as one could interpret it as "exercise is pointless and I can eat whatever I want as long as I cut sugar".
However, the rest of the core theses – the fact that processed foods are bad for one's health (and by processed foods I mean pre-processed such as ramen and eventually refined sugars and cereals) and that excess sugar is a big issue in modern world didn't sound as far-fetched. Neither that sugar may very well be addictive, considering not only the effects that is has had on rats* but also that due to its characteristics similar to morphine it is sometimes used as an anaesthetic on premature babies**. Moreover, none of these facts were really new either, so I am not sure what is wrong with that thesis?
Finally, I the way I saw it, the documentary wasn't necessarily aimed at those who already know how to eat healthy and choose to eat crap, but was trying to highlight how a lot of these families with obese kids simply do not know how to eat and properly feed themselves. Which is kind of a problem – I know it's easy to say "but these days everybody has an Internet connection", but then again, the trouble with the Internet is that in order to use it, you also need to know how to filter the information thrown at you. And if you do not have a certain educational background you just are not able to do so.martyqueen52 wrote: »http://nutritionstudies.org/fed-up-with-fed-up/ ..... dumb documentary and anyone who believes its.... loaded *kitten* is an idiot, period.
I agree partly with what is written in the article, about Fed Up being reductive in many ways, but I don't see how the documentary speaks against a Whole Food and Plant Based diet? It seemed to be the contrary for me?
So my question is – am I missing some important piece of context to understand why this documentary in particular is so much hated?
Many of us have science backgrounds and we do not let pseudo-science and hype go unchallenged since it is in the nature of those who value the emprical method to challenge interpretation of the facts; this is how science has always evolved and those who are not well trained in science are the ones who generally take easy offence to this approach. It's not that we are being mean, as often we are accused of, but trying to actually indicate what is really out there as fact versus what is out there that is really not accurate and highly misleading.
<b>The facts do not support the idea that sugar is addictive like cocaine or heroine so you will be challenged on this if you state it. </b> If one chooses to avoid added sugar than this is fine but if you try to justify it through statements of facts that do not meet a certain standard of evidence you will be challenged on them. This documentary is known to be a collection of bias and misinformation and this is what we challenge.
Lol, sorry but worded like that it kind of sounds like a threat. ^^ (I know it's not, I just found that amusing)
Ok, I understand that. On the other hand, going through the discussion, I see very few comments offering a scientific explanation and links to scientific articles giving counterarguments, and plenty stating that "if THAT is the source you are getting information from, you are not to be taken seriously" and general remarks about why a person is wrong.
I don't think I ever stated sugar is addictive in the same way cocaine and heroine is. What I said was that it was shown to have addictive effects in lab rats and, in one study, shown to surpass cocaine reward*. Now, I am well aware that this does not necessarily translate to humans, but it is an indicator that it might.
As for the documentary, you state that "it is known" to be a collection of bias and misinformation. No, I am sorry, it is not know, evidently. Otherwise I would not be asking about it. Now, I have seen some articles arguing against the documentary, which were however in some way financed or associated with large food corporations and one, from Sweetenerstudies.com seems to be associated with the Corn Refiner's Association. Pardon me if I take those with a grain of salt.
Also, please know that I have not read the book, so I am analysing the documentary on its own terms.
Would you have any studies at hand that speak against sugar being addictive and scientific reviews on the documentary? (I have been looking for the latter and have not found any)
As I stated, I realise that the documentary is far from being hard, scientific facts and is problematic at times. However, the basic thesis – eat less sugar and processed products – resonates with me as basic common sense and far from the usual promotion of fad diets. Which is why I am confused as why this documentary in particular is attracting so much hate.
*http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000698
LOL, guess it could sound like a threat but a challenge is normally just a request to lay out your facts for examination. This is why some of the studies and sources are already discounted since we have seen them before and we have found them lacking, i.e. they are motivated by something other than disinterested investigation or have been discredited for weak methodologies etc.
As for the evidence that sugar is not addictive, I will cop out for the time since I am at work and don't have a lot of time to link them all, but I do know that there are others here that have them locked and loaded and they have been posted numerous times.
I certainly support eating healthfully and higly processed foods are at the top of the list for reduction or removal if that is your goal, but remember that they also contain a lot of fat and since we don't demonize fat we should extend the same to sugar as well since it is no worse if eaten in moderation.
ETA, oh I didn't accuse you directly of stating that sugar was addictive like a drug but that does come up a lot so that's why I mentioned that a few times.
Alright, I'll wait for the people that have them "locked and loaded." I'm afraid I am myself packed with work myself and thus do not have the time to go on a 30-page hunt.
Well, I am not looking to demonise sugar, really. I was just majorly confused as to why everyone was trying to demonise this documentary in particular. What I extrapolate for what you are saying though is that there is a risk is that if one does not look at it critically, it may very well end up with people demonising sugar. Which could be true, I guess, and I assume some people have if it's such a hot topic. I just did not see it in that way at all.
In any case, thanks for the patience and the reply.
my main complaint is that people watch/read garbage like this and think "oh, I am fat because of all the sugar;" when in reality the reason is that people are fat from overeating and lack of movement. Eliminating sugar has nothing to do with weight loss, unless one has a medical condition.
Go back and review the posts in this thread about sugar causing obesity and sugar being comported to heroin...
Alright, I just found it. O.O I don't even know what to say. I had a similar conversation with my boyfriend last night. We were being sarcastic.
I am now going to add a disclaimer to my previous post in which I mention opiates...
I hope you brought enough opiates for the entire class.
No, but... do you realise? That means every parent an unwilling drug dealer every halloween!
Unwilling? Hmm, we give chocolate to strangers kids because they have sugar and caffeine and they will be eating before they go to bed and maybe we just find that amusing. 0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GingerbreadCandy wrote: »Alright. I need some clarification here after seeing how much the thread blew up...
I saw the documentary, and it actually resonated as quite true with me, and I'd like to think that I am not a completely uninformed and ignorant person. Rather the contrary, as nutrition was always a big topic in my family. (and before someone asks me to open my diary – I can, but I got my wisdom teeth pulled two weeks ago and currently don't have access to a kitchen or a scale, and thus my feeding pattern is far from representative not to mention that I am guesstimating a lot)
Some parts of it were blatantly sensationalist, and I found the way exercise and calories in/out were presented problematic, as one could interpret it as "exercise is pointless and I can eat whatever I want as long as I cut sugar".
However, the rest of the core theses – the fact that processed foods are bad for one's health (and by processed foods I mean pre-processed such as ramen and eventually refined sugars and cereals) and that excess sugar is a big issue in modern world didn't sound as far-fetched. Neither that sugar may very well be addictive, considering not only the effects that is has had on rats* but also that due to its characteristics similar to morphine it is sometimes used as an anaesthetic on premature babies**. Moreover, none of these facts were really new either, so I am not sure what is wrong with that thesis?
Finally, I the way I saw it, the documentary wasn't necessarily aimed at those who already know how to eat healthy and choose to eat crap, but was trying to highlight how a lot of these families with obese kids simply do not know how to eat and properly feed themselves. Which is kind of a problem – I know it's easy to say "but these days everybody has an Internet connection", but then again, the trouble with the Internet is that in order to use it, you also need to know how to filter the information thrown at you. And if you do not have a certain educational background you just are not able to do so.martyqueen52 wrote: »http://nutritionstudies.org/fed-up-with-fed-up/ ..... dumb documentary and anyone who believes its.... loaded *kitten* is an idiot, period.
I agree partly with what is written in the article, about Fed Up being reductive in many ways, but I don't see how the documentary speaks against a Whole Food and Plant Based diet? It seemed to be the contrary for me?
So my question is – am I missing some important piece of context to understand why this documentary in particular is so much hated?
Many of us have science backgrounds and we do not let pseudo-science and hype go unchallenged since it is in the nature of those who value the emprical method to challenge interpretation of the facts; this is how science has always evolved and those who are not well trained in science are the ones who generally take easy offence to this approach. It's not that we are being mean, as often we are accused of, but trying to actually indicate what is really out there as fact versus what is out there that is really not accurate and highly misleading.
<b>The facts do not support the idea that sugar is addictive like cocaine or heroine so you will be challenged on this if you state it. </b> If one chooses to avoid added sugar than this is fine but if you try to justify it through statements of facts that do not meet a certain standard of evidence you will be challenged on them. This documentary is known to be a collection of bias and misinformation and this is what we challenge.
Lol, sorry but worded like that it kind of sounds like a threat. ^^ (I know it's not, I just found that amusing)
Ok, I understand that. On the other hand, going through the discussion, I see very few comments offering a scientific explanation and links to scientific articles giving counterarguments, and plenty stating that "if THAT is the source you are getting information from, you are not to be taken seriously" and general remarks about why a person is wrong.
I don't think I ever stated sugar is addictive in the same way cocaine and heroine is. What I said was that it was shown to have addictive effects in lab rats and, in one study, shown to surpass cocaine reward*. Now, I am well aware that this does not necessarily translate to humans, but it is an indicator that it might.
As for the documentary, you state that "it is known" to be a collection of bias and misinformation. No, I am sorry, it is not know, evidently. Otherwise I would not be asking about it. Now, I have seen some articles arguing against the documentary, which were however in some way financed or associated with large food corporations and one, from Sweetenerstudies.com seems to be associated with the Corn Refiner's Association. Pardon me if I take those with a grain of salt.
Also, please know that I have not read the book, so I am analysing the documentary on its own terms.
Would you have any studies at hand that speak against sugar being addictive and scientific reviews on the documentary? (I have been looking for the latter and have not found any)
As I stated, I realise that the documentary is far from being hard, scientific facts and is problematic at times. However, the basic thesis – eat less sugar and processed products – resonates with me as basic common sense and far from the usual promotion of fad diets. Which is why I am confused as why this documentary in particular is attracting so much hate.
*http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000698
LOL, guess it could sound like a threat but a challenge is normally just a request to lay out your facts for examination. This is why some of the studies and sources are already discounted since we have seen them before and we have found them lacking, i.e. they are motivated by something other than disinterested investigation or have been discredited for weak methodologies etc.
As for the evidence that sugar is not addictive, I will cop out for the time since I am at work and don't have a lot of time to link them all, but I do know that there are others here that have them locked and loaded and they have been posted numerous times.
I certainly support eating healthfully and higly processed foods are at the top of the list for reduction or removal if that is your goal, but remember that they also contain a lot of fat and since we don't demonize fat we should extend the same to sugar as well since it is no worse if eaten in moderation.
ETA, oh I didn't accuse you directly of stating that sugar was addictive like a drug but that does come up a lot so that's why I mentioned that a few times.
Alright, I'll wait for the people that have them "locked and loaded." I'm afraid I am myself packed with work myself and thus do not have the time to go on a 30-page hunt.
Well, I am not looking to demonise sugar, really. I was just majorly confused as to why everyone was trying to demonise this documentary in particular. What I extrapolate for what you are saying though is that there is a risk is that if one does not look at it critically, it may very well end up with people demonising sugar. Which could be true, I guess, and I assume some people have if it's such a hot topic. I just did not see it in that way at all.
In any case, thanks for the patience and the reply.
my main complaint is that people watch/read garbage like this and think "oh, I am fat because of all the sugar;" when in reality the reason is that people are fat from overeating and lack of movement. Eliminating sugar has nothing to do with weight loss, unless one has a medical condition.
Go back and review the posts in this thread about sugar causing obesity and sugar being comported to heroin...
Alright, I just found it. O.O I don't even know what to say. I had a similar conversation with my boyfriend last night. We were being sarcastic.
I am now going to add a disclaimer to my previous post in which I mention opiates...
I hope you brought enough opiates for the entire class.
No, but... do you realise? That means every parent an unwilling drug dealer every halloween!
Unwilling? Hmm, we give chocolate to strangers kids because they have sugar and caffeine and they will be eating before they go to bed and maybe we just find that amusing.
I had never seen it that way before.
0 -
herrspoons wrote: »
Very few fall into the former group. In my experience they generally are well educated and versed in analysis.herrspoons wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Yeah I know, but no one is backing down and you all are just going round and round in circles.
What bothers me most is that some people appear to be taking great pleasure in ridiculing and putting others down
One thing I have learned over the years is that some people respond to polite, well thought out arguments and others just need a good kicking.
So it goes.
Most need a boot.
Pretty much. Most of the ones who take offence are the perpetual failures and people who are looking for excuses, and, let's face it, they'll never be convinced by any form of argument, so why waste the time?
Its not a waste of time if it makes you think outside the way everyone else is doing things. If you take a look at what you are doing and pick the things that work for you and toss the ones that don't.
0 -
herrspoons wrote: »
Very few fall into the former group. In my experience they generally are well educated and versed in analysis.herrspoons wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Yeah I know, but no one is backing down and you all are just going round and round in circles.
What bothers me most is that some people appear to be taking great pleasure in ridiculing and putting others down
One thing I have learned over the years is that some people respond to polite, well thought out arguments and others just need a good kicking.
So it goes.
Most need a boot.
Pretty much. Most of the ones who take offence are the perpetual failures and people who are looking for excuses, and, let's face it, they'll never be convinced by any form of argument, so why waste the time?
I usually only take offense when people promote misinformation and refuse to back down, or tell me I'm "doing it wrong," unsolicited, mind you, even though I continue to be successful.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »
Very few fall into the former group. In my experience they generally are well educated and versed in analysis.herrspoons wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Yeah I know, but no one is backing down and you all are just going round and round in circles.
What bothers me most is that some people appear to be taking great pleasure in ridiculing and putting others down
One thing I have learned over the years is that some people respond to polite, well thought out arguments and others just need a good kicking.
So it goes.
Most need a boot.
Pretty much. Most of the ones who take offence are the perpetual failures and people who are looking for excuses, and, let's face it, they'll never be convinced by any form of argument, so why waste the time?
I usually only take offense when people promote misinformation and refuse to back down, or tell me I'm "doing it wrong," unsolicited, mind you, even though I continue to be successful.
I wish I could like this, but MFP doesn't gve us that opion. Maybe I will flag it in place of a like? 0 -
On another note, it is killing me not being able to post my weight loss yet, because my official weigh-in day isn't until Saturday. But...I hit ONDERLAND!! 0
-
herrspoons wrote: »
Very few fall into the former group. In my experience they generally are well educated and versed in analysis.herrspoons wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Yeah I know, but no one is backing down and you all are just going round and round in circles.
What bothers me most is that some people appear to be taking great pleasure in ridiculing and putting others down
One thing I have learned over the years is that some people respond to polite, well thought out arguments and others just need a good kicking.
So it goes.
Most need a boot.
Pretty much. Most of the ones who take offence are the perpetual failures and people who are looking for excuses, and, let's face it, they'll never be convinced by any form of argument, so why waste the time?
I usually only take offense when people promote misinformation and refuse to back down, or tell me I'm "doing it wrong," unsolicited, mind you, even though I continue to be successful.
I wish I could like this, but MFP doesn't gve us that opion. Maybe I will flag it in place of a like?
Just your quote makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. 0 -
ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »
What a great article. I've been looking for something like this. Thanks for posting it.
0 -
-
GingerbreadCandy wrote: »I have enormous trouble with the "I can't believe people are that dumb" part. I have to state here – I don't live in the US, and although I knew that a lot of junk food is consumed in the states, Fed Up! was the first documentary I saw on the matter, and I was shocked by what is served in food cantines.
This actually explains a lot, since I think it's probably easier to believe rather extreme examples presented as normal from outside the US. I get the impression that crazy US stuff is rather enjoyed by some in other countries (at least we aren't like them!) in the way that, perhaps, some in the US like embarrassing reality shows about certain segments of the population. Doesn't necessarily make it actually that representative or people actually as dumb as those they found to focus on (or as they are willing to act to be in a movie or on TV).Let's take a personal example – I consider a breakfast of bread-based products and something nutella as a perfectly healthy part of an everyday meal. Now, I know that nutella is high-calorie not the healthiest food on the market, but if I didn't know better, I would most likely keep it in my diet even if I was trying to lose wight, because it just appears to be healthy to me. Even better – my grandmother, would routinely cook us fried chicken breasts and serve it with fried eggplants, for example, because in her mind it was good, filling food for growing children.
Hmm. I could buy this if we were just talking about traditional food items, like cereal for breakfast or, say, bacon, but even so people are capable of understanding the distinction between so-called healthy cereal (I hate cereal, and it was forced on me as a kid, so am prejudiced here) and super sugary kid's cereals. I actually have never found anyone who claims to be unaware that the latter is not the best choice (not that it can't be part of an overall balanced diet in moderation if you like it, of course).
Same, really, with fried foods--people might not think they are "unhealthy," but they sure know they are high in calories (or "fattening," as my own grandmother would have said).What I am saying is that I guess the issue is not stupidity, but just plain ignorance. Nutrition, to my knowledge, is not something taught in school, and in any case most definitely wasn't 40-50 years ago, when the parents of these obese kids were in school.
Hmm. At a certain point one has to try hard to be so incredibly ignorant, though, and that's where it becomes either unbelievable or unsympathetic to me, certainly not a basis for public policy choices.
Also, I'm 44 (more the age of the parents, although some could easily be younger), and back when I was in school nutrition WAS taught (not super well, but what a balanced diet was, the four food groups, so on). It was taught more when my mom was in school (she had to take home ec, I did not, although it was offered), but even more important, in her generation and even mine one just grew up having a sense of what proper nutrition was based on ideas about how one ate, what a meal was. I think nutrition is probably taught more now, but I get the sense that for many families the standard traditions about what proper meals are (including vegetables and all that) are gone. People love to mock the traditional American diet that I grew up with, and certainly it assumed meat and had plenty of starch, and the veggies weren't always well cooked and were frequently canned, but looking back the essence of it was reasonably healthy and it's not surprising that few kids were overweight (and not even that many adults) back then. There also may have been more activity, although a lot of the changes related to that had already occurred, I think.Also, at the time, eating fat, calorie-heavy foods made sense as there was a lot more manual labour and thus energy needed to be restored. In the case of my grandparents, there is and ben more subtle reason: they just were not very rich people and could not afford tons of food. So pimping up the meals with lots of fat helped them get their daily calorie-intake. Neither situations, however, apply today.
I largely agree with this, except I don't think fat is the problem even now, and I'd say that my grandparents (for similar reasons--also they lived on a farm in one case and one generation removed in the other, both sets had necessarily active lifestyles) also ate far more starchy foods (grains and potatoes) than I do or even than I grew up with, and for the same reasons that didn't lead to the same consequences as if they were sedentary. (My greatgrandparents even had a mill, so clearly my family is to blame for the obesity epidemic, since they processed all that wheat and such!)
We aren't going to agree on food addiction, so I'll leave it. The conflation of liking/wanting something pleasurable and addiction tends to bug me more than it probably should.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
Thanks!! I am doubly motivated now!0 -
herrspoons wrote: »
Very few fall into the former group. In my experience they generally are well educated and versed in analysis.herrspoons wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Yeah I know, but no one is backing down and you all are just going round and round in circles.
What bothers me most is that some people appear to be taking great pleasure in ridiculing and putting others down
One thing I have learned over the years is that some people respond to polite, well thought out arguments and others just need a good kicking.
So it goes.
Most need a boot.
Pretty much. Most of the ones who take offence are the perpetual failures and people who are looking for excuses, and, let's face it, they'll never be convinced by any form of argument, so why waste the time?
As a cynic, I agree, and suggest the basic approach of validate or ignore. People don't need that though, even though they crave it. (Like Brawndo.)0 -
oedipa_maas wrote: »ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »
What a great article. I've been looking for something like this. Thanks for posting it.
Probably an article entirely funded by Big Sugar™ (or a more far-reaching conspiracy, Big Food™).0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »oedipa_maas wrote: »ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »
What a great article. I've been looking for something like this. Thanks for posting it.
Probably an article entirely funded by Big Sugar™ (or a more far-reaching conspiracy, Big Food™).
Don't forget the ultimate conspiracy: Big™ -- it's really, really, really Big™!0
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