I bulked and just got fat.
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Just to chime in, I see a few things, which the guys have already mentioned:
1) you need much tighter bracing in the thoracic region. "Chest up" is a useful cue IF it gets you to tighten the upper back. If not, then you could try imagining engaging your lats by pulling the bar down into your traps and pulling your elbows in towards your body. If you do it right, Your whole upper back will be solid and that will translate to your lower back being solid.
2) The other issue is you are driving up from the hole with your knees (possibly following on from the looseness in the upper back effecting stuff further down the chain). Stay tight, engage your glutes and drive upward from the hips. You'll know it when it's right, it'll feel like you're accelerating the bar up on the way out of the hole.
I agree with stripping the weight off and trying to nail it so that you have a near vertical bar path centred over the midfoot and that multiple reps over multiple sets look the same. Then your mechanics will be solid and will form a solid foundation for adding weight and building strength.
Putting too much weight too soon on a bad squat pattern just means all the wrong things end up doing the work and you end up eventually injured. Get the pattern right and you'll progress faster even though it feels like you're taking ages to get anywhere. There really are no shortcuts with this stuff.
to point two - I cue that someone once told me was to think like you are going to F the air...
Ha, I need to remember that next time as hip drive is something I need to work on as well.0 -
@lucygoesrawr
The bar position looks to low. Low bar is supposed to be on the rear delts. You're placing it on the upper tricep.
Your foot position looks both a little wide and it may be turned out more than necessary too. I'd suggest jumping high into air. When you come down, don't move. Look at your feet and remember exactly how far apart they are and what angle they land. This is going to be very close to your squat foot position.
Props for putting videos up. You're not that far off from a good squat.
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lucygoesrawr wrote: »MrM27 -
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about the bar being unsteady? I did unrack it a bit to the side for at least one set (I rely on my husband to tell me if the position of the bar is correct - can't really tell otherwise; he was busy with the camera) - so it was a bit lopsided, though can't say I noticed it moving, if that's what you mean.
When you suggest taking all the weight off, do you realise that that's about 28kg on the bar (from 32kg previously)? The bar only weighs about 20kg. That's quite a deload, and I'm not sure how necessary it is? I do warm ups with the bar before my work sets though (and increments from there). I do appreciate the advice - that just seems a bit extreme? It took several months to get to this point. Also, I feel the bar would be too far below the threshold at which the problems start happening, so I wouldn't be able to correct them.
In regards to the hip drive - I know
Was too busy focusing on everything else and I just...forgot.
As for my knees - they weren't any better at all? I'll keep trying. Won't add any weight next session.
Did you think they were deep enough (I know the knees are more of a problem, mind you)?
Regarding taking the weight of the bar, if your form is right then addressing the no weight on the bar will give you the opportunity to address form without worrying about being able to do a certain amount of weight. A year ago I was doing 5 reps of 220 that I thought were good, I posted videos for form check and I ended up having to swallow my pride and remove 50 lbs and fix my form. It was a blow to my ego but it was necessary. It took me months to get back to where I was. Being able to squat a nice number means nothing if your overall technique is off. When are driving put of the hole you lean forward basically transitioning it into a good morning almost.
Like EvgeniZyntx said above, strengthening accessory muscles will help your form as well.
When I say the bar isn't steady if you look at the bar closely you will see that it is lopsided to the left. Bringing your arms in tighter and creating a shelf with your traps should fix that. If you look at where the bar crosses over your delts and where the bar is at in the video I posted you will see that the bar positioning is off.
Is it just me or does her hand position seem wide on the bar??
I usually go for shoulder width apart and try to feel like I am pinning the bar to my shoulders as it helps me stay tight throughout the movement....0 -
Just to chime in, I see a few things, which the guys have already mentioned:
1) you need much tighter bracing in the thoracic region. "Chest up" is a useful cue IF it gets you to tighten the upper back. If not, then you could try imagining engaging your lats by pulling the bar down into your traps and pulling your elbows in towards your body. If you do it right, Your whole upper back will be solid and that will translate to your lower back being solid.
2) The other issue is you are driving up from the hole with your knees (possibly following on from the looseness in the upper back effecting stuff further down the chain). Stay tight, engage your glutes and drive upward from the hips. You'll know it when it's right, it'll feel like you're accelerating the bar up on the way out of the hole.
I agree with stripping the weight off and trying to nail it so that you have a near vertical bar path centred over the midfoot and that multiple reps over multiple sets look the same. Then your mechanics will be solid and will form a solid foundation for adding weight and building strength.
Putting too much weight too soon on a bad squat pattern just means all the wrong things end up doing the work and you end up eventually injured. Get the pattern right and you'll progress faster even though it feels like you're taking ages to get anywhere. There really are no shortcuts with this stuff.
to point two - I cue that someone once told me was to think like you are going to F the air...
Whatever gets you out of the hole....
Uhmmm...
LOL0 -
lucygoesrawr wrote: »MrM27 -
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about the bar being unsteady? I did unrack it a bit to the side for at least one set (I rely on my husband to tell me if the position of the bar is correct - can't really tell otherwise; he was busy with the camera) - so it was a bit lopsided, though can't say I noticed it moving, if that's what you mean.
When you suggest taking all the weight off, do you realise that that's about 28kg on the bar (from 32kg previously)? The bar only weighs about 20kg. That's quite a deload, and I'm not sure how necessary it is? I do warm ups with the bar before my work sets though (and increments from there). I do appreciate the advice - that just seems a bit extreme? It took several months to get to this point. Also, I feel the bar would be too far below the threshold at which the problems start happening, so I wouldn't be able to correct them.
In regards to the hip drive - I know Was too busy focusing on everything else and I just...forgot.
As for my knees - they weren't any better at all? I'll keep trying. Won't add any weight next session.
Did you think they were deep enough (I know the knees are more of a problem, mind you)?
Regarding taking the weight of the bar, if your form is right then addressing the no weight on the bar will give you the opportunity to address form without worrying about being able to do a certain amount of weight. A year ago I was doing 5 reps of 220 that I thought were good, I posted videos for form check and I ended up having to swallow my pride and remove 50 lbs and fix my form. It was a blow to my ego but it was necessary. It took me months to get back to where I was. Being able to squat a nice number means nothing if your overall technique is off. When are driving put of the hole you lean forward basically transitioning it into a good morning almost.
Like EvgeniZyntx said above, strengthening accessory muscles will help your form as well.
When I say the bar isn't steady if you look at the bar closely you will see that it is lopsided to the left. Bringing your arms in tighter and creating a shelf with your traps should fix that. If you look at where the bar crosses over your delts and where the bar is at in the video I posted you will see that the bar positioning is off.
Is it just me or does her hand position seem wide on the bar??
I usually go for shoulder width apart and try to feel like I am pinning the bar to my shoulders as it helps me stay tight throughout the movement....
Hand position is personal preference. Many beginners and people with no traps should find a closer grip helps especially since they do better at keeping their elbows pointed down (a cue for keeping upright). Plenty of experience powerlifters squat with their hands near the collars.0 -
lucygoesrawr wrote: »MrM27 -
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about the bar being unsteady? I did unrack it a bit to the side for at least one set (I rely on my husband to tell me if the position of the bar is correct - can't really tell otherwise; he was busy with the camera) - so it was a bit lopsided, though can't say I noticed it moving, if that's what you mean.
When you suggest taking all the weight off, do you realise that that's about 28kg on the bar (from 32kg previously)? The bar only weighs about 20kg. That's quite a deload, and I'm not sure how necessary it is? I do warm ups with the bar before my work sets though (and increments from there). I do appreciate the advice - that just seems a bit extreme? It took several months to get to this point. Also, I feel the bar would be too far below the threshold at which the problems start happening, so I wouldn't be able to correct them.
In regards to the hip drive - I know Was too busy focusing on everything else and I just...forgot.
As for my knees - they weren't any better at all? I'll keep trying. Won't add any weight next session.
Did you think they were deep enough (I know the knees are more of a problem, mind you)?
Regarding taking the weight of the bar, if your form is right then addressing the no weight on the bar will give you the opportunity to address form without worrying about being able to do a certain amount of weight. A year ago I was doing 5 reps of 220 that I thought were good, I posted videos for form check and I ended up having to swallow my pride and remove 50 lbs and fix my form. It was a blow to my ego but it was necessary. It took me months to get back to where I was. Being able to squat a nice number means nothing if your overall technique is off. When are driving put of the hole you lean forward basically transitioning it into a good morning almost.
Like EvgeniZyntx said above, strengthening accessory muscles will help your form as well.
When I say the bar isn't steady if you look at the bar closely you will see that it is lopsided to the left. Bringing your arms in tighter and creating a shelf with your traps should fix that. If you look at where the bar crosses over your delts and where the bar is at in the video I posted you will see that the bar positioning is off.
Is it just me or does her hand position seem wide on the bar??
I usually go for shoulder width apart and try to feel like I am pinning the bar to my shoulders as it helps me stay tight throughout the movement....
I personally have very stiff shoulders, and so my grip is kind of wide (my hands usually line up just outside the small mark in the knurling. But, I also feel like the OP's elbows kick back pretty far, I try to keep mine relatively tucked, but it's likely something I need to work on as sometimes the bar feels like it's slipping. Never thought I'd need shoulder mobility for squats.
OP, that might be something to consider - stretching your shoulders and trying to grab closer in if you can. It will make a difference as it gets heavier; like I said, sometimes I feel like my bar is slipping.0 -
I tend to have my hands wider for low-bar and narrower for high-bar.
But I couldn't tell you why - there's no grand bio-mechanical principle behind it - it just sorta feels right to me.
Getting the upper back engagement is the important thing and that just takes a bit of playing around to find what engages things for you.0 -
lucygoesrawr wrote: »MrM27 -
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about the bar being unsteady? I did unrack it a bit to the side for at least one set (I rely on my husband to tell me if the position of the bar is correct - can't really tell otherwise; he was busy with the camera) - so it was a bit lopsided, though can't say I noticed it moving, if that's what you mean.
When you suggest taking all the weight off, do you realise that that's about 28kg on the bar (from 32kg previously)? The bar only weighs about 20kg. That's quite a deload, and I'm not sure how necessary it is? I do warm ups with the bar before my work sets though (and increments from there). I do appreciate the advice - that just seems a bit extreme? It took several months to get to this point. Also, I feel the bar would be too far below the threshold at which the problems start happening, so I wouldn't be able to correct them.
In regards to the hip drive - I know Was too busy focusing on everything else and I just...forgot.
As for my knees - they weren't any better at all? I'll keep trying. Won't add any weight next session.
Did you think they were deep enough (I know the knees are more of a problem, mind you)?
Regarding taking the weight of the bar, if your form is right then addressing the no weight on the bar will give you the opportunity to address form without worrying about being able to do a certain amount of weight. A year ago I was doing 5 reps of 220 that I thought were good, I posted videos for form check and I ended up having to swallow my pride and remove 50 lbs and fix my form. It was a blow to my ego but it was necessary. It took me months to get back to where I was. Being able to squat a nice number means nothing if your overall technique is off. When are driving put of the hole you lean forward basically transitioning it into a good morning almost.
Like EvgeniZyntx said above, strengthening accessory muscles will help your form as well.
When I say the bar isn't steady if you look at the bar closely you will see that it is lopsided to the left. Bringing your arms in tighter and creating a shelf with your traps should fix that. If you look at where the bar crosses over your delts and where the bar is at in the video I posted you will see that the bar positioning is off.
Is it just me or does her hand position seem wide on the bar??
I usually go for shoulder width apart and try to feel like I am pinning the bar to my shoulders as it helps me stay tight throughout the movement....
Hand position is personal preference. Many beginners and people with no traps should find a closer grip helps especially since they do better at keeping their elbows pointed down (a cue for keeping upright). Plenty of experience powerlifters squat with their hands near the collars.lucygoesrawr wrote: »MrM27 -
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about the bar being unsteady? I did unrack it a bit to the side for at least one set (I rely on my husband to tell me if the position of the bar is correct - can't really tell otherwise; he was busy with the camera) - so it was a bit lopsided, though can't say I noticed it moving, if that's what you mean.
When you suggest taking all the weight off, do you realise that that's about 28kg on the bar (from 32kg previously)? The bar only weighs about 20kg. That's quite a deload, and I'm not sure how necessary it is? I do warm ups with the bar before my work sets though (and increments from there). I do appreciate the advice - that just seems a bit extreme? It took several months to get to this point. Also, I feel the bar would be too far below the threshold at which the problems start happening, so I wouldn't be able to correct them.
In regards to the hip drive - I know Was too busy focusing on everything else and I just...forgot.
As for my knees - they weren't any better at all? I'll keep trying. Won't add any weight next session.
Did you think they were deep enough (I know the knees are more of a problem, mind you)?
Regarding taking the weight of the bar, if your form is right then addressing the no weight on the bar will give you the opportunity to address form without worrying about being able to do a certain amount of weight. A year ago I was doing 5 reps of 220 that I thought were good, I posted videos for form check and I ended up having to swallow my pride and remove 50 lbs and fix my form. It was a blow to my ego but it was necessary. It took me months to get back to where I was. Being able to squat a nice number means nothing if your overall technique is off. When are driving put of the hole you lean forward basically transitioning it into a good morning almost.
Like EvgeniZyntx said above, strengthening accessory muscles will help your form as well.
When I say the bar isn't steady if you look at the bar closely you will see that it is lopsided to the left. Bringing your arms in tighter and creating a shelf with your traps should fix that. If you look at where the bar crosses over your delts and where the bar is at in the video I posted you will see that the bar positioning is off.
Is it just me or does her hand position seem wide on the bar??
I usually go for shoulder width apart and try to feel like I am pinning the bar to my shoulders as it helps me stay tight throughout the movement....
I personally have very stiff shoulders, and so my grip is kind of wide (my hands usually line up just outside the small mark in the knurling. But, I also feel like the OP's elbows kick back pretty far, I try to keep mine relatively tucked, but it's likely something I need to work on as sometimes the bar feels like it's slipping. Never thought I'd need shoulder mobility for squats.
OP, that might be something to consider - stretching your shoulders and trying to grab closer in if you can. It will make a difference as it gets heavier; like I said, sometimes I feel like my bar is slipping.I tend to have my hands wider for low-bar and narrower for high-bar.
But I couldn't tell you why - there's no grand bio-mechanical principle behind it - it just sorta feels right to me.
Getting the upper back engagement is the important thing and that just takes a bit of playing around to find what engages things for you.
All good points and makes sense...
I just thought that tightening up at the top might help OP stay higher through the movement....0 -
I tend to have my hands wider for low-bar and narrower for high-bar.
But I couldn't tell you why - there's no grand bio-mechanical principle behind it - it just sorta feels right to me.
Getting the upper back engagement is the important thing and that just takes a bit of playing around to find what engages things for you.
The lower bar position will automatically cause your arms to move wider since it's further behind you and lower so it causes a big stretch. When I do high bar squats I also take a more narrow stance and go ATG but that's just because I do high bar for Olympic training and low bar for power training.0 -
Mostly related to elbow pain, but Paul Carter shows wide hand placement for squats in the video on this page.
http://www.lift-run-bang.com/2012/06/fixing-your-low-bar-squat-hand-and.html
eta: It's Paul Carter, so the language is likely NSFW for most people.0 -
So back to the knees.
Someone else mentioned this- and It was in my brain as we started talking knees- but let's come back to it.
You may be too turned out for your knees to keep track with.
What does that mean- then people tell you to turn your toes wider- or push them wider- it's an effort (an honest effort but not always the correct effort) to get your knees out.
The turn out from the toe comes as a reaction from the open hip and knee. You're foot almost always will ALWAYS be able to turn wider than you knee (unless you're spending active time working on a dancer style turn out and open hip flexiblity).
So. Turning you're toes out only as far as your knee and hip will allow- then you're not trying to shove your knees further out then they allow.
So play MORE with your foot width- and in that how far out you turn your toes.
Some people recommend straight forward- to me- that is to uncomfortable and leaves me very unstable. I have a slight turn out and allows me to keep my knees tracking over the toes. I can turn out wider and operate reasonably well there because I dance and I spend time doing that- but I can't SQUAT that way. So I have to back off the turn out - to allow the mechanics and limitations I have working.
I posted a hip opening warm up video for someone a while back- it might behoove you to work through your own in depth warm up (or take the one I used and use) to work on opening the hip and really getting properly warmed up.0 -
Yeah- it's a sticking point- people focus on the FOOT turn out- when they need to realize that turn out is a reaction to the hip and leg being engaged- not turn the toe out and hope the leg follows.
Action comes from hip opening- reaction is the toe turn out.
Verses
Action- turn the toe/foot out- reaction let the knees hopefully keep up.
Hopefully that makes sense to you OP.
Speaking of MrM- how is that working for you? Have you made progress?0 -
it's so hard to focus on the details- but the higher you go- the more technical it becomes- and the more those technical details matter- I did the same thing last summer trying to really break the 200 threshold in a solid and complete manner- now I feel MUCH more comfortable over 200 than I ever have. But it took 6-9 months working at much lower weights.
It kind of sucks- but you're right- that detail really REALLY pays off in the long run.
I know I have more work to do- but baby's come a long way since getting stuck at 185 for a power curtsy LOL.0 -
Yeah- it's a sticking point- people focus on the FOOT turn out- when they need to realize that turn out is a reaction to the hip and leg being engaged- not turn the toe out and hope the leg follows.
Action comes from hip opening- reaction is the toe turn out.
Verses
Action- turn the toe/foot out- reaction let the knees hopefully keep up.
Hopefully that makes sense to you OP.
Speaking of MrM- how is that working for you? Have you made progress?
Since I made the adjustments on footing, bar placement and trajectory it's been ok but could be better. I went from 5 reps of 220 but sloppy as hell to now being able to get back up to about 235 x 5 and 265 x1. Honestly I should have been at 300 by now but I didn't put as much emphasis on increasing my squat numbers like I did with my bench and deads. I spent a lot of time hovering around the same squat numbers to to train in mechanics without worrying about looking for numbers. It was a lot of time spent doing that but in the long run I think I will benefit from the repetition and making things just be 2nd nature.
This week I can't squat after my concussion so hopefully I'll be under the bar real soon.
So what does your concussion protocol say about weight training? Are you able to do it at all?0 -
Yeah- it's a sticking point- people focus on the FOOT turn out- when they need to realize that turn out is a reaction to the hip and leg being engaged- not turn the toe out and hope the leg follows.
Action comes from hip opening- reaction is the toe turn out.
Verses
Action- turn the toe/foot out- reaction let the knees hopefully keep up.
Hopefully that makes sense to you OP.
Speaking of MrM- how is that working for you? Have you made progress?
Since I made the adjustments on footing, bar placement and trajectory it's been ok but could be better. I went from 5 reps of 220 but sloppy as hell to now being able to get back up to about 235 x 5 and 265 x1. Honestly I should have been at 300 by now but I didn't put as much emphasis on increasing my squat numbers like I did with my bench and deads. I spent a lot of time hovering around the same squat numbers to to train in mechanics without worrying about looking for numbers. It was a lot of time spent doing that but in the long run I think I will benefit from the repetition and making things just be 2nd nature.
This week I can't squat after my concussion so hopefully I'll be under the bar real soon.
slow and steady is better brother. About six months ago I was just adding like five pounds to squats every week and got up to 255 X 5 but it was sloppy as hell, and I knew it. So about two months into that I decided to back down to 225 and made sure I felt good at 4x5 and then went up to 230, same process and up to 235 and now I am at 240...but the movement feels a lot better....0 -
Hey, lucy! Just wanted to thank you for posting the videos. I hadn't done a form check on myself in a couple of months, so I videoed myself this morning. OMG -- time to drop a crapton off the bar and work on form again. And, no, not going to post the videos...it's embarrassing enough that people in the gym saw me squatting like that.
0
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