Male body pressure becoming the same as women?
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crystalflame wrote: »
Wrong.crystalflame wrote: »How is that giving anyone an excuse? I also stated that people should be the best they can be, working with what they've been given. Unfortunately, the media doesn't portray that as good enough.
Nice try though.
I don't appreciate the condescending attitude. If I'm wrong, tell me your opinion why I am. I'd think you'd want to be the best at discussing a given topic as you can be, after all.
I'm speaking from my perspective, which is admittedly biased by having male friends who struggle with being taken seriously or viewed as desirable because of their appearance. They have to work much harder when it comes to dating, job interviews, and even making friends because of the snap judgments people tend to make. They've told me how when it comes to online dating, they feel women are looking for celebrity attractiveness and they don't stack up. Doesn't stop them from trying, but they haven't had success. One of them had a solid resume, but it took 10 job interviews before he finally got hired somewhere. These guys are very talented, work hard at their jobs, are financially stable, well-traveled... but it doesn't seem to matter to most people. One in particular is an intelligent, well-spoken, well-dressed lawyer, but he's short and has a glass eye. People remember and talk about the glass eye more than anything.
I see the same type of man in movies, ads, and TV over and over. Movies use trick shots to make Tom Cruise taller. Overweight men and people with disabilities are pitied or comedic, but rarely sexy. There are exceptions, of course, but they're a very small percentage.
Once again, I'm not condoning aiming for mediocrity. I'm saying, from my perspective, there is a specific definition of masculine put forth by the media and embraced by society, and those who don't fit that mold are viewed, subconsciously or not, as less-than.
Why are you even bothering? Like you said, there was no argument presented. He just said "Nope, you're wrong" and you're freaking out about it? Who cares? LOL0 -
crystalflame wrote: »
Wrong.crystalflame wrote: »How is that giving anyone an excuse? I also stated that people should be the best they can be, working with what they've been given. Unfortunately, the media doesn't portray that as good enough.
Nice try though.
I don't appreciate the condescending attitude. If I'm wrong, tell me your opinion why I am. I'd think you'd want to be the best at discussing a given topic as you can be, after all.
I'm speaking from my perspective, which is admittedly biased by having male friends who struggle with being taken seriously or viewed as desirable because of their appearance. They have to work much harder when it comes to dating, job interviews, and even making friends because of the snap judgments people tend to make. They've told me how when it comes to online dating, they feel women are looking for celebrity attractiveness and they don't stack up. Doesn't stop them from trying, but they haven't had success. One of them had a solid resume, but it took 10 job interviews before he finally got hired somewhere. These guys are very talented, work hard at their jobs, are financially stable, well-traveled... but it doesn't seem to matter to most people. One in particular is an intelligent, well-spoken, well-dressed lawyer, but he's short and has a glass eye. People remember and talk about the glass eye more than anything.
I see the same type of man in movies, ads, and TV over and over. Movies use trick shots to make Tom Cruise taller. Overweight men and people with disabilities are pitied or comedic, but rarely sexy. There are exceptions, of course, but they're a very small percentage.
Once again, I'm not condoning aiming for mediocrity. I'm saying, from my perspective, there is a specific definition of masculine put forth by the media and embraced by society, and those who don't fit that mold are viewed, subconsciously or not, as less-than.
Also, those women either find someone they ARE interested in, or stay single. I went on a few dates with a guy who had a prosthetic leg, and I didn't know until he told me, but it was early on. I didn't give a crap, but I did care that he was an @ss****. I'd rather be single than unhappy. Also, there are a ton of eligible, wonderful girls in my area that are looking for someone, so I don't think these "great" guys are looking very hard.0 -
I should have made popcorn. I had no idea we would get a MRA on here complete with canned antifeminist rhetoric. Bahahaha! I actually went back and read all the posts. Hubby's snoring on the couch and I really should go to bed, but.... the Internet! lol0
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I should have made popcorn. I had no idea we would get a MRA on here complete with canned antifeminist rhetoric. Bahahaha! I actually went back and read all the posts. Hubby's snoring on the couch and I really should go to bed, but.... the Internet! lol
THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!
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I feel like either I'm deeply missing your implications- or you don't understand the meaning of irony- because from where I'm sitting- one has nothing to do with the other.
Look at Mr_K's other posts, he posts a lot of things he doesn't understand, and is accidentally funny most of the time.0 -
NoelFigart1 wrote: »
I wouldn't accept that one bit.NoelFigart1 wrote: »
For example, whinging about societal pressure, instead of just trying to be the best one can be.
Okay, I have had a significant amount of personal and professional successes in my life. I'm a leader in my community and... Well, I have a lot of experience under my belt. I have big goals still left to achieve, only one of which is even peripherally about my body shape.
You know what I'm going to get the most praise and approbation for?
It will be about reducing the size of my butt. If I achieve one of my big goals, my WEIGHT LOSS is going to be the damn lead for it in the local paper.
THAT will define "the best I can be" in most people's eyes. You bloody well BET I resent the living soul that.
If you're a leader, you lead others to informed understandings of what you do and what you achieve. Someone can puke a lot and lose weight. Or go on Isagenix, etc etc. It takes work, dedication, ambition, and sacrifice to achieve excellence. The lead in they'd attempt would be weight, because not everyone else understands those other qualities. As a leader though, it will be your job to correct them.
you know- I had the same reaction- I kind of went- what a great opportunity to say yes- you to can do this with hard work-and while it's important to me- it needed to be done and really what my successes in life have been are X Y and Z.
And continue to steer the conversation/moment/whatever to that. if you're a leader- than lead and don't let someone pigeon hole you about your weight- clearly you are successful- so don't let them drive you.
I don't let people say what I can or cannot do, but I mean Jesus Tapdancing Christ, a bestselling novelist had the lead on her obit about her looks and weight. Didn't stop her from writing the novels, but the last things written about her were still that she was fat. If you think that's not indicative of severe wrongs in our cultural mindset, I can't help you.
I did not become scrappy as hell in a vacuum, friends.
... then continue to be scrappy, and define their story for them.
If my piddly little company can take over direction of a great deal of the articles about us, you surely can do the same.0 -
crystalflame wrote: »
Wrong.crystalflame wrote: »How is that giving anyone an excuse? I also stated that people should be the best they can be, working with what they've been given. Unfortunately, the media doesn't portray that as good enough.
Nice try though.
I don't appreciate the condescending attitude. If I'm wrong, tell me your opinion why I am. I'd think you'd want to be the best at discussing a given topic as you can be, after all.
I'm speaking from my perspective, which is admittedly biased by having male friends who struggle with being taken seriously or viewed as desirable because of their appearance. They have to work much harder when it comes to dating, job interviews, and even making friends because of the snap judgments people tend to make. They've told me how when it comes to online dating, they feel women are looking for celebrity attractiveness and they don't stack up. Doesn't stop them from trying, but they haven't had success. One of them had a solid resume, but it took 10 job interviews before he finally got hired somewhere. These guys are very talented, work hard at their jobs, are financially stable, well-traveled... but it doesn't seem to matter to most people. One in particular is an intelligent, well-spoken, well-dressed lawyer, but he's short and has a glass eye. People remember and talk about the glass eye more than anything.
I see the same type of man in movies, ads, and TV over and over. Movies use trick shots to make Tom Cruise taller. Overweight men and people with disabilities are pitied or comedic, but rarely sexy. There are exceptions, of course, but they're a very small percentage.
Once again, I'm not condoning aiming for mediocrity. I'm saying, from my perspective, there is a specific definition of masculine put forth by the media and embraced by society, and those who don't fit that mold are viewed, subconsciously or not, as less-than.
So? I don't appreciate your attitude of celebrating mediocrity. I guess we both have things we have identified that we do not appreciate.
Sounds like your male friends need to sack up. My god, 10 job interviews? Multiple attempts at dating? I can't tell if you're actually being serious with this.
From your perspective, and I'm saying this as someone who is a bit experienced at being male, you need to meet better males.
However, who the hell am I to say?
1. I'm short.
2. ESL.
3. Overweight.
4. Thinning hair.
5. My testes don't work.
6. My calves are thicker than my biceps by 4 inches.
7. Occasional bouts of social anxiety.
Leader in my field, and I still get phone numbers offered to me even though I'm very happily married to someone far better looking than me, and far more intelligent. I r iz speshul snowflayk appurntle. Why is this? Oh yeah, I worked at being engaging, looking the best I can, blah blah blah, all distilled to, "I made an effort." Plenty of guys can't even be wanked off to do that. Which is sad, but that's the difference between a winning horse, and a walking sack of glue.0 -
I should have made popcorn. I had no idea we would get a MRA on here complete with canned antifeminist rhetoric. Bahahaha! I actually went back and read all the posts. Hubby's snoring on the couch and I really should go to bed, but.... the Internet! lol
Heh, there aren't MRAs in this thread. You want to see MRAs? I can give you plenty of gamergate links, if you have enough popcorn. That'll be an education for you. Gamers are the worst.0 -
I should have made popcorn. I had no idea we would get a MRA on here complete with canned antifeminist rhetoric. Bahahaha! I actually went back and read all the posts. Hubby's snoring on the couch and I really should go to bed, but.... the Internet! lol
Heh, there aren't MRAs in this thread. You want to see MRAs? I can give you plenty of gamergate links, if you have enough popcorn. That'll be an education for you. Gamers are the worst.
....but no seriously, if you read back in the thread, there was one guy had clearly swallowed The Red Pill whole and was currently choking on it. I'm sure that's what she was referring to.0 -
I should have made popcorn. I had no idea we would get a MRA on here complete with canned antifeminist rhetoric. Bahahaha! I actually went back and read all the posts. Hubby's snoring on the couch and I really should go to bed, but.... the Internet! lol
Heh, there aren't MRAs in this thread. You want to see MRAs? I can give you plenty of gamergate links, if you have enough popcorn. That'll be an education for you. Gamers are the worst.
....but no seriously, if you read back in the thread, there was one guy had clearly swallowed The Red Pill whole and was currently choking on it. I'm sure that's what she was referring to.
Oh. I may have missed that... there were some posts from dudes where I just read the first few words, smelled the pathetic, and said, NOPE.
They're probably a gamergater too.... lol.0 -
crystalflame wrote: »
Wrong.crystalflame wrote: »How is that giving anyone an excuse? I also stated that people should be the best they can be, working with what they've been given. Unfortunately, the media doesn't portray that as good enough.
Nice try though.
I don't appreciate the condescending attitude. If I'm wrong, tell me your opinion why I am. I'd think you'd want to be the best at discussing a given topic as you can be, after all.
I'm speaking from my perspective, which is admittedly biased by having male friends who struggle with being taken seriously or viewed as desirable because of their appearance. They have to work much harder when it comes to dating, job interviews, and even making friends because of the snap judgments people tend to make. They've told me how when it comes to online dating, they feel women are looking for celebrity attractiveness and they don't stack up. Doesn't stop them from trying, but they haven't had success. One of them had a solid resume, but it took 10 job interviews before he finally got hired somewhere. These guys are very talented, work hard at their jobs, are financially stable, well-traveled... but it doesn't seem to matter to most people. One in particular is an intelligent, well-spoken, well-dressed lawyer, but he's short and has a glass eye. People remember and talk about the glass eye more than anything.
I see the same type of man in movies, ads, and TV over and over. Movies use trick shots to make Tom Cruise taller. Overweight men and people with disabilities are pitied or comedic, but rarely sexy. There are exceptions, of course, but they're a very small percentage.
Once again, I'm not condoning aiming for mediocrity. I'm saying, from my perspective, there is a specific definition of masculine put forth by the media and embraced by society, and those who don't fit that mold are viewed, subconsciously or not, as less-than.
So? I don't appreciate your attitude of celebrating mediocrity. I guess we both have things we have identified that we do not appreciate.
Sounds like your male friends need to sack up. My god, 10 job interviews? Multiple attempts at dating? I can't tell if you're actually being serious with this.
From your perspective, and I'm saying this as someone who is a bit experienced at being male, you need to meet better males.
However, who the hell am I to say?
1. I'm short.
2. ESL.
3. Overweight.
4. Thinning hair.
5. My testes don't work.
6. My calves are thicker than my biceps by 4 inches.
7. Occasional bouts of social anxiety.
Leader in my field, and I still get phone numbers offered to me even though I'm very happily married to someone far better looking than me, and far more intelligent. I r iz speshul snowflayk appurntle. Why is this? Oh yeah, I worked at being engaging, looking the best I can, blah blah blah, all distilled to, "I made an effort." Plenty of guys can't even be wanked off to do that. Which is sad, but that's the difference between a winning horse, and a walking sack of glue.
Thanks. I really do appreciate getting a reply and knowing your perspective.
I think we fundamentally disagree on some things, and that's cool. I like and respect my friends exactly the way they are, and I think they're pretty manly to handle the crap they get with the grace and resilience that they do. I also respect that you've put in a lot of work to make yourself awesome, and I agree that people need to make the effort. My friend did get a job in the end, and it was the best one of all of them. It's not like he quit. Continual learning and improvement until you accomplish what you set out to do.0 -
I agree with continual learning, etc.
10 job interviews? Even when you're a known name in your field, it's not beyond surprise to have to deal with double that. I know I'm being an inflexible cuss, because I view this as a simple binary decision.
Effort made:
Yes | No
You're right, we do fundamentally disagree, probably on more than a few things. The core of my point, and I don't think we'd disagree much there is that one must make an effort. There are very few people, even hot and rich ones (kardashian types not included) that can get anywhere without effort. Those of us with a few cards stacked against us means we need to work doubly hard, if not more.
That's where drive, ambition, and a "go eff yourself" type approach to life can pay off in spades and prevent someone from being mired down in the Swamp of Sadness, allowing their bones to join Artax's in memory and the failure of allowing an external pressure to best them.
I'll shut up now, there's an anti-vaxxer on my facebook feed that needs correcting...
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Hahahaha. Anti-vaxxers: WRONG. There's something we agree on!
I guess for context, we were fresh out of college, I got hired on my first interview, and most of our peers only had 3 or 4, even in the more competitive fields. 10 interviews and 60 applications for an entry-level job seemed excessive. But the job market's tough, and I know some people have it a hell of a lot worse. I can see how that seems whiny and entitled. Sorry.
Agree with this line very strongly, which was at the heart of the point I was trying to make from the beginning: Those of us with a few cards stacked against us means we need to work doubly hard, if not more.0 -
Just different and "lucky." Me, games industry, I think I got my first job out of college after 7 or 8 months of interviews. It's an extremely competitive industry, and *everyone* thinks that they can be in it.crystalflame wrote: »I guess for context, we were fresh out of college, I got hired on my first interview, and most of our peers only had 3 or 4, even in the more competitive fields. 10 interviews and 60 applications for an entry-level job seemed excessive. But the job market's tough, and I know some people have it a hell of a lot worse. I can see how that seems whiny and entitled. Sorry.
I'd have loved a situation like what you described.
Anti-vaxxers deserve no quarter.
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I personally think there's SOMETHING to it, but the author kind of implies that it's equal which I don't necessarily believe. Or should I say the standard may be equally impossible, but the pressure to obtain it isn't the same. Women can be shamed if they don't meet a certain standard (unfortunately) and from a society standpoint their worth is tied more to their looks than men.
[/quote]
As a woman, I appreciate your comment
It's definitely an interesting article (and thank you for sharing). I also think there's something to it, I haven't seen the effects be so extreme, but people are hypercritical of one another, especially when it comes to looks. Often, I think it's because it's the only thing we know about someone we don't know. The criticism and impossible standard seem to be exacerbated by the opportunity we have. For example, with internet dating, we can choose if we even want to acknowledge someone based purely on appearance, and I can't help but feel like this disregard for the humanity of other people is influenced by our consumer mentality. It seems that we view people as products (until we get to know them, hopefully) and we can ignore and disregard less attractive "products" in order to reserve our attentions for someone more appealing.
I do know that my boyfriend feels a lot of pressure to look a certain way, however he doesn't put a lot of time or effort into achieving that standard. I guess my point is, I do feel like this issue is becoming more pressing, but I think both sexes should handle it the same way, by trying to ignore the impossible, unhealthy "sexy" extremes, and focusing on being a decent person.
"And yes, there will always be shallow people who insist that physical beauty is the only thing that matters. We call these people *kitten*. And why would you want to date an *kitten* in the first place?"0 -
I feel like either I'm deeply missing your implications- or you don't understand the meaning of irony- because from where I'm sitting- one has nothing to do with the other.
Look at Mr_K's other posts, he posts a lot of things he doesn't understand, and is accidentally funny most of the time.
So this is what's its like to be on the receiving end of a man crush...
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I've never hidden the fact that I'm a power top.
I feel like either I'm deeply missing your implications- or you don't understand the meaning of irony- because from where I'm sitting- one has nothing to do with the other.
Look at Mr_K's other posts, he posts a lot of things he doesn't understand, and is accidentally funny most of the time.
So this is what's its like to be on the receiving end of a man crush...
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I do know that my boyfriend feels a lot of pressure to look a certain way, however he doesn't put a lot of time or effort into achieving that standard. I guess my point is, I do feel like this issue is becoming more pressing, but I think both sexes should handle it the same way, by trying to ignore the impossible, unhealthy "sexy" extremes, and focusing on being a decent person.
"And yes, there will always be shallow people who insist that physical beauty is the only thing that matters. We call these people *kitten*. And why would you want to date an *kitten* in the first place?"
Curious, how old is your boyfriend?
Shallow people, you don't date them, you top them then never call them back. lol.0 -
I've never hidden the fact that I'm a power top.
I feel like either I'm deeply missing your implications- or you don't understand the meaning of irony- because from where I'm sitting- one has nothing to do with the other.
Look at Mr_K's other posts, he posts a lot of things he doesn't understand, and is accidentally funny most of the time.
So this is what's its like to be on the receiving end of a man crush... 0 -
crystalflame wrote: »I'm speaking from my perspective, which is admittedly biased by having male friends who struggle with being taken seriously or viewed as desirable because of their appearance. They have to work much harder when it comes to dating, job interviews, and even making friends because of the snap judgments people tend to make. They've told me how when it comes to online dating, they feel women are looking for celebrity attractiveness and they don't stack up. Doesn't stop them from trying, but they haven't had success. One of them had a solid resume, but it took 10 job interviews before he finally got hired somewhere. These guys are very talented, work hard at their jobs, are financially stable, well-traveled... but it doesn't seem to matter to most people. One in particular is an intelligent, well-spoken, well-dressed lawyer, but he's short and has a glass eye. People remember and talk about the glass eye more than anything.
This really resonates with me too. I work in IT and I have some friends that are SERIOUSLY decent guys. Would treat a woman awesome but especially with online dating will never get a 'shot' because they have physical (unchangeable) attributes that are less appealing. They try to improve themselves, but some things (height, hair, jaw line, etc) they just can't. There's a lot of pressure on them to be someone just to get their foot in the door.0
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