If you're not building muscle in a deficit, you're...
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None of the detractors mentioned anything about my experience (see page one - about 1/2 way down). Well, maybe they did because one of the posts said this thread made their head hurt...but he didn't call me out by name :-)
So I have to ask:
How did I go from Fatty McFatty, couch potato, to being able to do chin ups, push ups, insanity, etc. all while running a 1-pound per week deficit and losing 75 pounds over 18 months all while working out, hard, every other day?
As I mentioned in my prior thread, I agree you are not going to build big, well-defined muscle mass (like you do with bulking and cutting)...but there is no way that you can tell me that I did not gain muscle and that the muscle "I thought I gained" was already there but hidden in my chubby gut, chest, and arms, and that I just made my existing fat-hidden muscles stronger, but in no way bigger, with my deficit workouts.
Maybe a better way for me to phrase it is to say:
I got much stronger without gaining any muscle because my muscles knew I was a newb...and everyone knows that newb muscles don't gain mass.
I need to find another unicorn. I need a rainbow.0 -
Go_Mizzou99 wrote: »None of the detractors mentioned anything about my experience (see page one - about 1/2 way down). Well, maybe they did because one of the posts said this thread made their head hurt...but he didn't call me out by name :-)
So I have to ask:
How did I go from Fatty McFatty, couch potato, to being able to do chin ups, push ups, insanity, etc. all while running a 1-pound per week deficit and losing 75 pounds over 18 months all while working out, hard, every other day?
As I mentioned in my prior thread, I agree you are not going to build big, well-defined muscle mass (like you do with bulking and cutting)...but there is no way that you can tell me that I did not gain muscle and that the muscle "I thought I gained" was already there but hidden in my chubby gut, chest, and arms, and that I just made my existing fat-hidden muscles stronger, but in no way bigger, with my deficit workouts.
Maybe a better way for me to phrase it is to say:
I got much stronger without gaining any muscle because my muscles knew I was a newb...and everyone knows that newb muscles don't gain mass.
I need to find another unicorn. I need a rainbow.
I think your results don't sound unreasonable which is why you aren't getting any resistance. You lifted heavy and had noob gains in the beginning which were hidden underneath the fat. Then you burned fat while building a little bit more maybe as you kept going which started to reveal your now a bit larger, a bit harder and conditioned muscles. Now eat at maintenance for a few months and take measurements along the way to see what happens. That would be the real test.
All of your achievements you listed are related to strength, not mass.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
Agree - that's actually what happens not just day to day but also within the day with everyone unless they are constantly grazing and in a huge surplus.
You eat - anabolic. Finished digesting your last meal - catabolic (simplistic view i know!). That seems to get lost somewhere and some people assume a calorie deficit (no matter how small???) means you are in a catabolic state all the time.
So in reality the calorie balance alters the proportion of time you are in either state it doesn't mean people are one thing or the other 24x7.
A lot of the uneven eating protocols (Alan Aragon, Brad Schoenfeld etc.) work on these principles. I happen to eat in an uneven pattern (for other reasons) but even when in a weekly deficit I still had at least five days a week at maintenance - with plenty of protein "bricks" to build my wall (slowly).
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herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
Even if you are nailing your maintenance level perfectly, your body will be at surpluses and deficits at various parts of the day/night because we eat in discrete chunks. So right before a meal you'll be running at a small deficit, right after a meal you'll be running at a slight surplus.
Using that logic, wouldn't a person who eats fewer, higher calorie meals at maintenance averaged levels have a better chance of adding muscle while at maintenance? If they add say 1%, and then cut the next day and lost .5% but .4% of that is fat, they would come out on the positive in mass gains? Just a thought. (Percentages are just numbers, they don't reflect reality and are just there to make the point).
I don't know, but I suspect that's correct. Whether the difference is easily measurable is another question, though.ETA: although after reading it I don't know if I am clear. It's clear to me, but that doesn't mean much.
:drinker:
Sounds like a book I need to write to capitalize on all the BS! I'm calling Dr. Oz.
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Go_Mizzou99 wrote: »None of the detractors mentioned anything about my experience (see page one - about 1/2 way down). Well, maybe they did because one of the posts said this thread made their head hurt...but he didn't call me out by name :-)
So I have to ask:
How did I go from Fatty McFatty, couch potato, to being able to do chin ups, push ups, insanity, etc. all while running a 1-pound per week deficit and losing 75 pounds over 18 months all while working out, hard, every other day?
As I mentioned in my prior thread, I agree you are not going to build big, well-defined muscle mass (like you do with bulking and cutting)...but there is no way that you can tell me that I did not gain muscle and that the muscle "I thought I gained" was already there but hidden in my chubby gut, chest, and arms, and that I just made my existing fat-hidden muscles stronger, but in no way bigger, with my deficit workouts.
Maybe a better way for me to phrase it is to say:
I got much stronger without gaining any muscle because my muscles knew I was a newb...and everyone knows that newb muscles don't gain mass.
I need to find another unicorn. I need a rainbow.
you trained your muscles to be more "productive" AKA lift more with the same amount of muscle mass...
strength gains do not equal muscle gains...
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herrspoons wrote: »Next week: Can you build a brick wall with no bricks?
I use that analogy all the time..
I think with recomp though you are slowly lose fat and then adding muscle because you fluctuate between a deficit and surplus? That is just my theory based on the fact that no one is going to have their maintenance number 100% accurate so you must go through periods of deficit and surplus...
just tossing that out there...
Agree - that's actually what happens not just day to day but also within the day with everyone unless they are constantly grazing and in a huge surplus.
You eat - anabolic. Finished digesting your last meal - catabolic (simplistic view i know!). That seems to get lost somewhere and some people assume a calorie deficit (no matter how small???) means you are in a catabolic state all the time.
So in reality the calorie balance alters the proportion of time you are in either state it doesn't mean people are one thing or the other 24x7.
A lot of the uneven eating protocols (Alan Aragon, Brad Schoenfeld etc.) work on these principles. I happen to eat in an uneven pattern (for other reasons) but even when in a weekly deficit I still had at least five days a week at maintenance - with plenty of protein "bricks" to build my wall (slowly).
uneven eating protocol ...so is that like loading up most of your calories around post workout out time and having less around non-workout time...< probably a simplistic way of putting it but just curious..
I know when I did IF they recommended largest meal always being post-workout..which I still follow as I workout in afternoon and my largest meal is always dinner...0 -
joepratt503 wrote: »So much "You will" "you cannot" "it doesn't". the level of bro-science here is astounding sometimes.
None of this is a yes/no answer, it so much depends on where you are starting from, what exactly you are doing, how its actually getting done, what has been done before, what is your genetic capability...
Crazy crazy bro-science.
care to list some examples of what you are viewing as "broscience"....?
Figured someone would come in and mess up an interesting conversation. If you have an opinion or some facts for us, please share it. Childish rant not needed.
there is always one...0 -
Go_Mizzou99 wrote: »None of the detractors mentioned anything about my experience (see page one - about 1/2 way down). Well, maybe they did because one of the posts said this thread made their head hurt...but he didn't call me out by name :-)
So I have to ask:
How did I go from Fatty McFatty, couch potato, to being able to do chin ups, push ups, insanity, etc. all while running a 1-pound per week deficit and losing 75 pounds over 18 months all while working out, hard, every other day?
As I mentioned in my prior thread, I agree you are not going to build big, well-defined muscle mass (like you do with bulking and cutting)...but there is no way that you can tell me that I did not gain muscle and that the muscle "I thought I gained" was already there but hidden in my chubby gut, chest, and arms, and that I just made my existing fat-hidden muscles stronger, but in no way bigger, with my deficit workouts.
Maybe a better way for me to phrase it is to say:
I got much stronger without gaining any muscle because my muscles knew I was a newb...and everyone knows that newb muscles don't gain mass.
I need to find another unicorn. I need a rainbow.
you trained your muscles to be more "productive" AKA lift more with the same amount of muscle mass...
strength gains do not equal muscle gains...
I think I am having one of those "Aha" moments.
Using the correct terminology is key....strength gain of existing muscles vs. gained muscle mass is critical to this discussion.0 -
I'd agree with staying in deficit and reducing BF% first - much easier to lose fat than gain muscle. IMHO opinion you are too far away from your goals of "getting lean and losing fat" to recomp.Okay then....I've read about body recomp and that is what I am trying to do. Reading this thread, now I'm starting to wonder about a few things. Several people here seem pretty knowlegable and may be able to help. I am at 26% bf looking to get down to 19%. I'm 5'5" and my weight is 122 (I don't care if it goes up or down). The goal is to lose fat, get lean and build muscle. I have had good results from doing Body Beast (Lean Program). However, I never ate at a maintenance level. I was always in a deficit. Your opinions on whether I would gain muscle faster if I stopped the deficit? Would I still lose fat or would I risk gaining fat? Remember, maintenance not surplus. From the looks of some of the posters, you have this down to a science already. I'd love your input.
sij might disagree with me...
but I would suggest cutting your body fat down to 19% and then doing a bulk where you look to gain .5 pounds per week.
I would also suggest looking into a structured program like strong lifts, new rules of lifting for woman, or starting strength.
I would also suggest venturing over to the gaining forum and reading the sticky there on bulking...
Certainly a good lifting program, adequate protein and moderate deficit will help retain maximum amount of muscle while losing fat. If you get some newby gains then look at it as a bonus.
(I recomp because I'm very close to where I want to be, I'm focused on performance not aesthetics and after 40 years of training no matter what I do muscle gain will be slow.)
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Thank you, gentlemen for your honest feedback. I am glad I deferred to those with greater knowledge and experience. And I will definitely take a peek at the gaining forum as well. Thanks again. 0
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You can grow muscle on a deficit, you just will not get big muscles. I am so tired of reading the lies on this board about it. Muscles will grow, fat is reduced, people look better. If you starve yourself or don't do strength training, then yes, your muscles will not grow in a deficit but if you maintain a decent deficit, strength train and have a good diet you will. Muscle changes are not all diet related. I wish some people would read and anatomy and physiology book........
lies.
we are all liars!!! and we just want to keep the man down!!!! no success for you peons!!!!0 -
chivalryder wrote: »This is so much wrong in this thread, my head it beginning to hurt.
You cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit. That is a fact. Yes, your muscles will appear bigger, but that's because you're losing the fat around them which will make them more defined. They are not growing in size.
The "gains" you can get are from strength. Muscle size and strength are not directly related. The efficiency of your body and how well adapted your muscles are has more to do with actual strength than pure size. Muscles work by passing electrons from your nervous system to the muscle, causing them to contract. The more electrons you can transfer (sodium and potassium have a lot to do with this) and the more efficient and dense your muscles are, the stronger you will be. Strength training will improve the efficiency of this system, and can make your muscles more dense while in a caloric deficit. You will not, as mentioned before, build muscle mass or size while in a deficit.
Bolded part is just plain wrong. Your are stating it as an absolute fact - there are plenty of categories of people that can and do build some muscle mass in a deficit. Thinking everyone mistakes better muscle definition or strength gains for growth is just silly.
Do you really believe that some magical switch gets thrown at one calorie under TDEE? Or gets thrown again at maintenance?
How about an 18 year old, chubby, male just starting out training? You really think they need a calorie surplus and cannot use some of their stored energy (fat) to support growth?
Everyone will have a point at which their calorie intake will not support muscle growth but there's loads of factors that determine where that point will be for the individual.
It is possible to gain while in a deficit, even in experienced lifters. HOWEVER, there are a lot of factors that come into play... size of the deficit, genetics, training, macro breakdown etc.
I recall Brad Schoenfeld posting about this on Facebook a month or two ago, and mentioning that there were site specific increases in muscle hypertrophy in experienced lifters, but they tended to be more common in underdeveloped muscles/areas. So, in addition to all of the factors above... it is possible, but not nearly as optimal as if you were in a surplus.0 -
I wanted to add that in my case I hadn't strength trained since I was in 10th grade. I am 37 now. So I definitely had some noob gains. My gains haven't really slowed as of yet though so I don't know.
just to address this- having lost all your weight via cardio and not doing any strength training- you have a lot of room to "do work son" without having to bulk.
At some point though- you will tap out those reserves. I've been physically active and mostly fit for the large majority of my adult/child life. By the time I came back to serious lifting-I already had a good base of muscle I got almost a year of nice strength gains- with no structure training plan... and then I tapped my strength gains and I started bulking almost immediately just so I could hit strength goals.
I'd say that has quiet a bit to do with it- because at some point- all those "you won't gain unless/excepts" will run out... and in order to see real growth- you'll have to do the time- and eat the food.
And really it's not a bad thing... people get all butt hurt about it the concept- and yeah- you can see changes and moderate growth under certain conditions- but one of the big reasons we say "no you can't" is because "you'r fat is turning to muscle" myth- and " oh I lift and I got big"...
and most of them really didn't/don't. So in the bigger picture- it's essentially boiling down of the principle of the thing- and yeah- it's a semantics issue- but the amount of brain hurt about " well I just got to big" when really said persons gains were modest at best.
Hopefully that makes SOME amount of sense. Because- I'm only on cup 3 of coffee- and I'm fu4king cold as hell- so I'm probably only making half sense.0 -
benjaminhkohl wrote: »Then explain to me how I am losing weight but my shoulders are actually getting measurably larger. To increase in size is to gain mass. But I am still losing weight at a deficit. I am not talking about body building here, just some strength building that has increased the size of my shoulders. Nobody can tell me it is impossible when it has happened.
Nice newbie gains.
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LolBroScience wrote: »chivalryder wrote: »This is so much wrong in this thread, my head it beginning to hurt.
You cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit. That is a fact. Yes, your muscles will appear bigger, but that's because you're losing the fat around them which will make them more defined. They are not growing in size.
The "gains" you can get are from strength. Muscle size and strength are not directly related. The efficiency of your body and how well adapted your muscles are has more to do with actual strength than pure size. Muscles work by passing electrons from your nervous system to the muscle, causing them to contract. The more electrons you can transfer (sodium and potassium have a lot to do with this) and the more efficient and dense your muscles are, the stronger you will be. Strength training will improve the efficiency of this system, and can make your muscles more dense while in a caloric deficit. You will not, as mentioned before, build muscle mass or size while in a deficit.
Bolded part is just plain wrong. Your are stating it as an absolute fact - there are plenty of categories of people that can and do build some muscle mass in a deficit. Thinking everyone mistakes better muscle definition or strength gains for growth is just silly.
Do you really believe that some magical switch gets thrown at one calorie under TDEE? Or gets thrown again at maintenance?
How about an 18 year old, chubby, male just starting out training? You really think they need a calorie surplus and cannot use some of their stored energy (fat) to support growth?
Everyone will have a point at which their calorie intake will not support muscle growth but there's loads of factors that determine where that point will be for the individual.
It is possible to gain while in a deficit, even in experienced lifters. HOWEVER, there are a lot of factors that come into play... size of the deficit, genetics, training, macro breakdown etc.
I recall Brad Schoenfeld posting about this on Facebook a month or two ago, and mentioning that there were site specific increases in muscle hypertrophy in experienced lifters, but they tended to be more common in underdeveloped muscles/areas. So, in addition to all of the factors above... it is possible, but not nearly as optimal as if you were in a surplus.
Just to echo this, you can get visually significant hypertrophy in a smaller body part like shoulders if you stimulate them enough in a deficit.
It's probably going to be less pronounced/effective on a larger body part...
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hollydubs85 wrote: »Are your calves actually measuring larger with a measuring tape, or is your physical therapist just saying that your calf *muscles* have increased in size? If it's the latter, I'm curious how your PT could know that.
My PT, who has a doctorate in PT, uses a goniometer, a dynamometer, a measuring tape, a force gauge, balance scales, and a manual muscle tester.
I, on the other hand, can see that my calf muscles, which were atrophied and soft, now have definition and are hard to the touch, with a visible bulge when I flex my calf.
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I wanted to add that in my case I hadn't strength trained since I was in 10th grade. I am 37 now. So I definitely had some noob gains. My gains haven't really slowed as of yet though so I don't know.
just to address this- having lost all your weight via cardio and not doing any strength training- you have a lot of room to "do work son" without having to bulk.
At some point though- you will tap out those reserves. I've been physically active and mostly fit for the large majority of my adult/child life. By the time I came back to serious lifting-I already had a good base of muscle I got almost a year of nice strength gains- with no structure training plan... and then I tapped my strength gains and I started bulking almost immediately just so I could hit strength goals.
I'd say that has quiet a bit to do with it- because at some point- all those "you won't gain unless/excepts" will run out... and in order to see real growth- you'll have to do the time- and eat the food.
And really it's not a bad thing... people get all butt hurt about it the concept- and yeah- you can see changes and moderate growth under certain conditions- but one of the big reasons we say "no you can't" is because "you'r fat is turning to muscle" myth- and " oh I lift and I got big"...
and most of them really didn't/don't. So in the bigger picture- it's essentially boiling down of the principle of the thing- and yeah- it's a semantics issue- but the amount of brain hurt about " well I just got to big" when really said persons gains were modest at best.
Hopefully that makes SOME amount of sense. Because- I'm only on cup 3 of coffee- and I'm fu4king cold as hell- so I'm probably only making half sense.
I completely concur and agree with you. I have just been shocked to see how long those gains have continued to come. I thought I would "need" to bulk by now but I haven't really seen the need yet. When the progress stops, I will reevaluate, but most people seem to imply that "recomping" is super slow. I do stand by the fact that you need a surplus to make gains, but I do think the recomping and gains while in a defict get a little underplayed around here. They aren't as minimal as a lot like to think. I was just giving my experience as I don't think 9-12 months is all that slow for the gains I have gotten and the fat I have lost.0 -
I wanted to add that in my case I hadn't strength trained since I was in 10th grade. I am 37 now. So I definitely had some noob gains. My gains haven't really slowed as of yet though so I don't know.
just to address this- having lost all your weight via cardio and not doing any strength training- you have a lot of room to "do work son" without having to bulk.
At some point though- you will tap out those reserves. I've been physically active and mostly fit for the large majority of my adult/child life. By the time I came back to serious lifting-I already had a good base of muscle I got almost a year of nice strength gains- with no structure training plan... and then I tapped my strength gains and I started bulking almost immediately just so I could hit strength goals.
I'd say that has quiet a bit to do with it- because at some point- all those "you won't gain unless/excepts" will run out... and in order to see real growth- you'll have to do the time- and eat the food.
And really it's not a bad thing... people get all butt hurt about it the concept- and yeah- you can see changes and moderate growth under certain conditions- but one of the big reasons we say "no you can't" is because "you'r fat is turning to muscle" myth- and " oh I lift and I got big"...
and most of them really didn't/don't. So in the bigger picture- it's essentially boiling down of the principle of the thing- and yeah- it's a semantics issue- but the amount of brain hurt about " well I just got to big" when really said persons gains were modest at best.
Hopefully that makes SOME amount of sense. Because- I'm only on cup 3 of coffee- and I'm fu4king cold as hell- so I'm probably only making half sense.
I completely concur and agree with you. I have just been shocked to see how long those gains have continued to come. I thought I would "need" to bulk by now but I haven't really seen the need yet. When the progress stops, I will reevaluate, but most people seem to imply that "recomping" is super slow. I do stand by the fact that you need a surplus to make gains, but I do think the recomping and gains while in a defict get a little underplayed around here. They aren't as minimal as a lot like to think. I was just giving my experience as I don't think 9-12 months is all that slow for the gains I have gotten and the fat I have lost.
I also think the thing that's downplayed around here are individual differences. You may be genetically gifted in some respect we don't understand. Someone else might run the same routine as you, get everything else lined up the same way and not profit to the extent you have, if at all.
I guess I'm trying to say... we're all special snowflakes after all. Wow.
And approaches (after raw beginner - where anything works) have to be tailored to the individual.
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I wanted to add that in my case I hadn't strength trained since I was in 10th grade. I am 37 now. So I definitely had some noob gains. My gains haven't really slowed as of yet though so I don't know.
just to address this- having lost all your weight via cardio and not doing any strength training- you have a lot of room to "do work son" without having to bulk.
At some point though- you will tap out those reserves. I've been physically active and mostly fit for the large majority of my adult/child life. By the time I came back to serious lifting-I already had a good base of muscle I got almost a year of nice strength gains- with no structure training plan... and then I tapped my strength gains and I started bulking almost immediately just so I could hit strength goals.
I'd say that has quiet a bit to do with it- because at some point- all those "you won't gain unless/excepts" will run out... and in order to see real growth- you'll have to do the time- and eat the food.
And really it's not a bad thing... people get all butt hurt about it the concept- and yeah- you can see changes and moderate growth under certain conditions- but one of the big reasons we say "no you can't" is because "you'r fat is turning to muscle" myth- and " oh I lift and I got big"...
and most of them really didn't/don't. So in the bigger picture- it's essentially boiling down of the principle of the thing- and yeah- it's a semantics issue- but the amount of brain hurt about " well I just got to big" when really said persons gains were modest at best.
Hopefully that makes SOME amount of sense. Because- I'm only on cup 3 of coffee- and I'm fu4king cold as hell- so I'm probably only making half sense.
I completely concur and agree with you. I have just been shocked to see how long those gains have continued to come. I thought I would "need" to bulk by now but I haven't really seen the need yet. When the progress stops, I will reevaluate, but most people seem to imply that "recomping" is super slow. I do stand by the fact that you need a surplus to make gains, but I do think the recomping and gains while in a defict get a little underplayed around here. They aren't as minimal as a lot like to think. I was just giving my experience as I don't think 9-12 months is all that slow for the gains I have gotten and the fat I have lost.
It's probably down played so much since people swing so wildly into the "well it' because I got big/bulky/put on so much muscle"
and those of us who have been doing this for a while- have a visceral reaction to that and just going THAT"S NOT HOW THAT WORKS. LOL- we should- as a group of lifters in whole be more clear about why/how that works. You're right.
My experience with recomping is minimal-but I know it can work- but it's just slower... and honestly I wouldn't want do it at this point- a bulk/cut is more productive to me and it's going to get more immediate/clear results.0 -
In my world - Genetics
I have a natural tendency to add muscle. It's the way my body is and my body has picked that up from my dad and he picked it from his dad. My father was a light weight boxing champion and so was his dad. My dad is right now 72 years old and just last year he won 1st place in bodybuilding for the age group 55 plus.
Be it in maintenance or slight deficit I do have a tendency to add muscle. I am endurance athlete and I run. When I train for my races I will basically loose my muscle definition from biceps but I never ever loose muscle definition from my legs (ofcourse running), shoulders and triceps.
My race season ended last Sept 2014. I started lifting since then 90% lifting, slight cardio. My main goal for lifting was to build my upper body strength. I have had maintained slight deficit since then and I log everything everyday that goes in my mouth in grams exception being 10 -15 days of "Damn It!!!I want to take a break."
Since Sept 2014 @ being in slight Calorie Deficit -
I have barely lost 1 pound
I have lost 2 pant sizes. I'm now @ comfortable pant size 8.
I have lost one T-shirt size. I'm comfortably @ Large now.
I have lost 3% BF since September 2014 (I have trainer for my HIIT Camp who measures it).
My Leg Press and Deadlifts have increased but I play conservative and do not aggressively go after my #s b'coz that's not my goal. Like I said my goal is to only build enough strength to assist me during my endurance.
Last but not the least I have a 19 year old daughter who's genes have followed my grandfather's, my dad's and my genes. Naturally builds muscles on slight deficit.
Here to tell my story of how genetics can plays role.0
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