Alternative to weight training for muscle maintenance?
Chrysalid2014
Posts: 1,038 Member
Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose). I simply cannot stand weight training but I do a body-conditioning-type program that includes exercises such as: planks, pressups, lunges, crow pose, raised leg crunches, L-sit lifts, standing leg lifts, seated straddle lifts, and handstands (all alternated with stretching). My question is, will these type of exercises perform the same function as weight training? I have to say, I have done weight training in the past and these new exercises seem A LOT more difficult – I'm literally shaking after trying to hold some of them for the required time (or actually even get into the position on some of them). Then again I'm a lot older now!
Any insight/knowledge on this would be appreciated.
Any insight/knowledge on this would be appreciated.
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Replies
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I'm no expert on those various exercises you've listed, but you can accomplish resistance training without using weights (it is sometimes just tougher to measure progress). Popular programs praised here on MFP include Convict Conditioning, You Are Your Own Gym, and a few others.
Here's a blog by an MFP poster who had great success with bodyweight exercises when she found that lifting weights just wasn't for her: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/fourfiftythree/view/calisthenics-roadmap-a-list-of-resources-to-get-started-with-bodyweight-strength-training-6943380 -
Weight training isn't the only thing ever suggested. It's resistance training that's needed. Progressive resistance training. So if you can make it more challenging, you don't need a barbell0
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Thanks for the replies! That blog post is fantastic and the resources the writer has listed will keep me going for a good while. The word I was looking for is 'calisthenics' and it sounds like exactly what I want to achieve. Cheers!0
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per kg protein (minus fat). Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself (my diary is open if you want to see an example of this).
Also, lower the weights if you have trouble getting into a position needed for lifts. The shaking could also be an indication of too much weight. It is also a sign that the smaller muscle groups are too weak. Dont just focus on biceps, triceps, and thighs. you should focus on your back muscles, shoulder, etc as well.
eg, try 8lbs instead of 20lbs for lateral raises (common mistake I see and read about others doing). lateral rises will help condition smaller muscle groups that support larger muscles when doing exercises such as a military press.
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also try nerdfitness.com and look for bodyweight exercises
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself.
That's not realistic at all, and not even necessary. You are advocating that a 250 pound person eats 500 grams of protein. That's 2000 calories of protein alone! Not to mention it often comes packed with fat and carbs, so no way one would lose weight on that. 1.5 gram per kg is often suggested, but could also go for 1 gram per pound of body mass.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself (my diary is open if you want to see an example of this).
Also, lower the weights if you have trouble getting into a position needed for lifts. The shaking could also be an indication of too much weight. It is also a sign that the smaller muscle groups are too weak. Dont just focus on biceps, triceps, and thighs. you should focus on your back muscles, shoulder, etc as well.
eg, try 8lbs instead of 20lbs for lateral raises (common mistake I see and read about others doing). lateral rises will help condition smaller muscle groups that support larger muscles when doing exercises such as a military press.
That is terrible advice
0.8-1g protein per lb of LBM0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself.
That's not realistic at all, and not even necessary. You are advocating that a 250 pound person eats 500 grams of protein. That's 2000 calories of protein alone! Not to mention it often comes packed with fat and carbs, so no way one would lose weight on that. 1.5 gram per kg is often suggested, but could also go for 1 gram per pound of body mass.
I agree that's completely unnecessary. It's true that research supports eating more than the RDA while working out and in a deficit:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/823505
But most people recommend 1 gram per pound of LBM. Personally I'd hate trying to eat that much protein. I'm lucky to hit the 1 g/lb recommendation as is.0 -
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Oh, sorry OP I forgot to answer your question. There are lots of ways to preserve muscle but you need progressive overload. In other words, if you're doing body weight you have to keep making the exercises more difficult as you go. That's why a program can be more helpful than just making it up as you go.0
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself.
That's not realistic at all, and not even necessary. You are advocating that a 250 pound person eats 500 grams of protein. That's 2000 calories of protein alone! Not to mention it often comes packed with fat and carbs, so no way one would lose weight on that. 1.5 gram per kg is often suggested, but could also go for 1 gram per pound of body mass.
500g chicken breast is only 800 calories....![:\](https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself (my diary is open if you want to see an example of this).
Also, lower the weights if you have trouble getting into a position needed for lifts. The shaking could also be an indication of too much weight. It is also a sign that the smaller muscle groups are too weak. Dont just focus on biceps, triceps, and thighs. you should focus on your back muscles, shoulder, etc as well.
eg, try 8lbs instead of 20lbs for lateral raises (common mistake I see and read about others doing). lateral rises will help condition smaller muscle groups that support larger muscles when doing exercises such as a military press.
That is terrible advice
0.8-1g protein per lb of LBM
I meant kg not lbs.
btw, 2g is fine.
Protein intake of 1.3 – 2.0 grams per kilogram of body weight is adequate for stimulating maximal protein synthesis.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself.
That's not realistic at all, and not even necessary. You are advocating that a 250 pound person eats 500 grams of protein. That's 2000 calories of protein alone! Not to mention it often comes packed with fat and carbs, so no way one would lose weight on that. 1.5 gram per kg is often suggested, but could also go for 1 gram per pound of body mass.
500g chicken breast is only 800 calories....
500g of chicken breast has 115 grams of protein. You would need to eat 2.2 kg of chicken breast to get 500 grams of protein. That comes at 2400 calories by the way.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself.
That's not realistic at all, and not even necessary. You are advocating that a 250 pound person eats 500 grams of protein. That's 2000 calories of protein alone! Not to mention it often comes packed with fat and carbs, so no way one would lose weight on that. 1.5 gram per kg is often suggested, but could also go for 1 gram per pound of body mass.
500g chicken breast is only 800 calories....
500g of chicken breast has 115 grams of protein. You would need to eat 2.2 kg of chicken breast to get 500 grams of protein. That comes at 2400 calories by the way.
Where the hell did you get "500 grams of protein" from!? btw, 500g chicken has 150g protein.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself.
That's not realistic at all, and not even necessary. You are advocating that a 250 pound person eats 500 grams of protein. That's 2000 calories of protein alone! Not to mention it often comes packed with fat and carbs, so no way one would lose weight on that. 1.5 gram per kg is often suggested, but could also go for 1 gram per pound of body mass.
500g chicken breast is only 800 calories....Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself (my diary is open if you want to see an example of this).
Also, lower the weights if you have trouble getting into a position needed for lifts. The shaking could also be an indication of too much weight. It is also a sign that the smaller muscle groups are too weak. Dont just focus on biceps, triceps, and thighs. you should focus on your back muscles, shoulder, etc as well.
eg, try 8lbs instead of 20lbs for lateral raises (common mistake I see and read about others doing). lateral rises will help condition smaller muscle groups that support larger muscles when doing exercises such as a military press.
That is terrible advice
0.8-1g protein per lb of LBM
I meant kg not lbs.
btw, 2g is fine.
Protein intake of 1.3 – 2.0 grams per kilogram of body weight is adequate for stimulating maximal protein synthesis.
Chicken breast isn't pure protein though. There's fat and water there too.
Each gram of protein has 4 calories
Each gram of carbs has 4 calories
Each gram of fat has 9 calories
So if you had 500 grams of protein it would be 2000 calories.-1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself.
That's not realistic at all, and not even necessary. You are advocating that a 250 pound person eats 500 grams of protein. That's 2000 calories of protein alone! Not to mention it often comes packed with fat and carbs, so no way one would lose weight on that. 1.5 gram per kg is often suggested, but could also go for 1 gram per pound of body mass.
500g chicken breast is only 800 calories....
500g of chicken breast has 115 grams of protein. You would need to eat 2.2 kg of chicken breast to get 500 grams of protein. That comes at 2400 calories by the way.
Where the hell did you get "500 grams of protein" from!? btw, 500g chicken has 150g protein.
I was going with the raw chicken. Doesn't matter though. I read your post before you corrected it to 2g per kg, which sounds a bit more reasonable (though still a bit too high for an obese person). I got 500g of protein from your original post, and a hypothetical 250 lb person. Well, glad the misunderstanding has been cleared up.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Like most people on MFP, I would like to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing fat (I have 80+ pounds to lose).
2g per lb protein. Eating that much protein gives your body no reason to catabolic itself.
That's not realistic at all, and not even necessary. You are advocating that a 250 pound person eats 500 grams of protein. That's 2000 calories of protein alone! Not to mention it often comes packed with fat and carbs, so no way one would lose weight on that. 1.5 gram per kg is often suggested, but could also go for 1 gram per pound of body mass.
500g chicken breast is only 800 calories....
500g of chicken breast has 115 grams of protein. You would need to eat 2.2 kg of chicken breast to get 500 grams of protein. That comes at 2400 calories by the way.
Where the hell did you get "500 grams of protein" from!? btw, 500g chicken has 150g protein.
I was going with the raw chicken. Doesn't matter though. I read your post before you corrected it to 2g per kg, which sounds a bit more reasonable. I got 500g of protein from your original post, and a hypothetical 250 lb person. Well, glad the misunderstanding has been cleared up.
ya, my bad. its 3am where i am.
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Looks like I need to double up on my current amount of protein, then. I thought I was doing well by eating the MyFitnessPal recommended amount (I'm normally a carbs person) but even using the most modest calculation suggested in these comments (1g per lb) would double that amount.
I think I'm going to purchase the Convict Conditioning book and I'll check out that nerdfitness.com site as well. I do try to make the exercises I currently do more difficult by holding the positions for longer. Basically I'm trying to feel like I exert the same amount of effort each time, so as I get fitter I will be doing more and more actual work.
Thanks to all for the replies – you've been very helpful!
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Looks like I need to double up on my current amount of protein, then. I thought I was doing well by eating the MyFitnessPal recommended amount (I'm normally a carbs person) but even using the most modest calculation suggested in these comments (1g per lb) would double that amount.
I think I'm going to purchase the Convict Conditioning book and I'll check out that nerdfitness.com site as well. I do try to make the exercises I currently do more difficult by holding the positions for longer. Basically I'm trying to feel like I exert the same amount of effort each time, so as I get fitter I will be doing more and more actual work.
Thanks to all for the replies – you've been very helpful!
MFP by default gives to you double or even triple the recommended protein, at least based on what most medical organisations recommend to eat. So, unless you are in need of a high protein diet for whatever reason, then the MFP numbers are already too high, not too low. The 1 gram per lb as minimum intake is an old myth, the recommended protein for the average person is half that if not less. This is recognised as a myth even by bodybuilders. Check here for example: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki1.htm
It is an upper limit that might be of help when bulking (eating at a surplus and following an appropriate strength trainign program) but it is by no means a minimum recommended number.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Looks like I need to double up on my current amount of protein, then. I thought I was doing well by eating the MyFitnessPal recommended amount (I'm normally a carbs person) but even using the most modest calculation suggested in these comments (1g per lb) would double that amount.
I think I'm going to purchase the Convict Conditioning book and I'll check out that nerdfitness.com site as well. I do try to make the exercises I currently do more difficult by holding the positions for longer. Basically I'm trying to feel like I exert the same amount of effort each time, so as I get fitter I will be doing more and more actual work.
Thanks to all for the replies – you've been very helpful!
It's 1 g per lean body mass, which means if you have 130 lb of lean body mass (your weight minus the amount of fat you carry), you would be eating 130 grams of protein. I wouldn't obsess about the numbers if you don't know your body fat. Just eat 1.5-2 grams per kg of your goal weight and you should be fine.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Looks like I need to double up on my current amount of protein, then. I thought I was doing well by eating the MyFitnessPal recommended amount (I'm normally a carbs person) but even using the most modest calculation suggested in these comments (1g per lb) would double that amount.
I think I'm going to purchase the Convict Conditioning book and I'll check out that nerdfitness.com site as well. I do try to make the exercises I currently do more difficult by holding the positions for longer. Basically I'm trying to feel like I exert the same amount of effort each time, so as I get fitter I will be doing more and more actual work.
Thanks to all for the replies – you've been very helpful!
[. . . snip . . .]
It is an upper limit that might be of help when bulking (eating at a surplus and following an appropriate strength trainign program) but it is by no means a minimum recommended number.
Adequate protein is actually more important when maintaining a calorie deficit. It aids in retention of lean mass when your body is looking for energy sources to make up the deficit. An "adequate" amount will vary with the size of one's deficit, current leanness, age, activity profile, body composition goals, etc., but 0.8g - 1g per lb of lbm is an entirely reasonable target for many folks here on MFP who are doing some resistance training, trying to lose fat, and trying to retain lean mass. There is some additional research that suggests for relatively lean, resistance-trained individuals with a non-trivial deficit, that 1.1g - 1.4g per lb of lbm is better suited to retaining lean mass.
OP - if you're getting something like 0.5g of your body weight at present weight, you're probably in the ballpark and you can focus your attention on more pressing matters (I am making an assumption here about your body weight based on the amount of weight your profile says you want to lose).
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OP - if you're getting something like 0.5g of your body weight at present weight, you're probably in the ballpark and you can focus your attention on more pressing matters (I am making an assumption here about your body weight based on the amount of weight your profile says you want to lose).
I am obese (5'6 and 210lb), but underneath all the fat I think I have a lot of muscle, because I have been doing resistance training for the past seven years (I was normal weight three years ago and then gained 80lbs (long story there, but I won't go into that)), but I continued doing resistance training all the while. So while I used to be able to (for example) hold my 140lb of weight in a plank position for 30 seconds, now I can still do the same weighing 210lb. That must mean I'm a lot stronger than I used to be, and I'd quite like to retain that while I'm losing the fat.
So going by Cortelli's reckoning, I should have around 105g of protein? Rather than the 60 recommended by MFP? These are my daily recommendations:
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The blog about calisthenics was awesome! The gym or buying equipment to lift heavy just isn't in my budget right now. Using my own body weight and gravity for resistance is perfect! I'm challenging myself to do 5 cal workouts a week for the next 30 days and increase the difficulty of the moves each month after. Ty for posting this!0
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
So going by Cortelli's reckoning, I should have around 105g of protein? Rather than the 60 recommended by MFP? These are my daily recommendations:
MFP recommendations are super light on protein and heavy on carbs. If you want to maintain muscle, you definitely should up the protein in your diet. I try to eat 1g protein per pound of lean body mass, which for me is approximately 140g protein. Because MFP works in percentages, I have my goals set to 45% carb, 25% fat, and 30% protein.
Setting up a good diet can be confusing. I hope you like numbers
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MFP by default gives to you double or even triple the recommended protein, at least based on what most medical organisations recommend to eat. So, unless you are in need of a high protein diet for whatever reason, then the MFP numbers are already too high, not too low.
MFP recommendations are super light on protein and heavy on carbs. If you want to maintain muscle, you definitely should up the protein in your diet...
Setting up a good diet can be confusing. I hope you like numbers
I love numbers. However I have to admit it is all getting a little confusing. (:-)
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
MFP by default gives to you double or even triple the recommended protein, at least based on what most medical organisations recommend to eat. So, unless you are in need of a high protein diet for whatever reason, then the MFP numbers are already too high, not too low.
MFP recommendations are super light on protein and heavy on carbs. If you want to maintain muscle, you definitely should up the protein in your diet...
Setting up a good diet can be confusing. I hope you like numbers
I love numbers. However I have to admit it is all getting a little confusing. (:-)
Yeah, there's a lot of conflicting advice out there. I joined the more-protein train when I was getting overuse injuries all the time and figured out it was because I was eating like 70% carbs at the time. Once I let myself eat a lot more meat, eggs, etc. I got a lot stronger. And for me, eating proportionally more fat and protein keeps me a lot more full during the day and I don't get randomly bloated as much.
That being said, it's all about what works for you. If you're getting stronger the way you're currently eating and not having any other issues, I'd say ignore the trends and just keep doing what you're doing. But if you're hungry all the time or getting injured or having stomach problems, it might be worth trying out a lower-carb diet for a while. (Not to be confused with Atkins. Don't go that far.)0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
OP - if you're getting something like 0.5g of your body weight at present weight, you're probably in the ballpark and you can focus your attention on more pressing matters (I am making an assumption here about your body weight based on the amount of weight your profile says you want to lose).
I am obese (5'6 and 210lb), but underneath all the fat I think I have a lot of muscle, because I have been doing resistance training for the past seven years (I was normal weight three years ago and then gained 80lbs (long story there, but I won't go into that)), but I continued doing resistance training all the while. So while I used to be able to (for example) hold my 140lb of weight in a plank position for 30 seconds, now I can still do the same weighing 210lb. That must mean I'm a lot stronger than I used to be, and I'd quite like to retain that while I'm losing the fat.
So going by Cortelli's reckoning, I should have around 105g of protein? Rather than the 60 recommended by MFP? These are my daily recommendations:
I favor setting protein and fat macronutrient goals based on grams, not percentages of total intake (but MFP doesn't have this capability). When I am bulking, I try to get about 0.8g or a little more of protein per lb of lbm. When I am in a deficit / losing, I try to get at least 1.1g per lb of LBM and sometimes closer to 1.4 / 1.5. Many would consider that excess.
I took a stab at recommending an amount of protein for you just based on the amount of weight you want to lose, and guestimated you might have somewhere around 100 - 130 lbs of LBM, which means I was suggesting you get about the same in numbers of grams of protein per day. To be clear, I don't think 0.5g per pound of bodyweight is "the goal" or the proper ratio for any comers -- it was just shorthand for saying that I figured you were somewhere north of 200 lbs total body weight, had somewhere in the low hundred+ of LBM, and based on that you might reasonably target somewhere in the low hundred+ for protein target.
The general RDAs (in the US) for protein are for an "average" person in generic circumstances and focused on health needs. Being in a calorie deficit means your body has to use stored energy to make up the deficit -- in an ideal scenario this stored energy would all come from available fat stores. In reality, we all lose a little LBM as well while in a deficit. So I look to ways to reduce the amount of LBM I lose while dieting.
There are, IMHO, three important factors in limiting LBM loss while losing weight: (1) adequate protein; (2) resistance training; and (3) a conservative deficit, at least when available fat stores are not plentiful. If very interested, I can dig up some studies that shows dieters eating 2 and 3 times the RDA of protein had better lean mass retention while in a calorie deficit (as I am sure many others could dig up as well). And if interested I'll dig up the research re: 1.1g - 1.4g recommendations for relatively lean, resistance-trained athletes in a calorie deficit.
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
MFP by default gives to you double or even triple the recommended protein, at least based on what most medical organisations recommend to eat. So, unless you are in need of a high protein diet for whatever reason, then the MFP numbers are already too high, not too low.
MFP recommendations are super light on protein and heavy on carbs. If you want to maintain muscle, you definitely should up the protein in your diet...
Setting up a good diet can be confusing. I hope you like numbers
I love numbers. However I have to admit it is all getting a little confusing. (:-)
Don't stress it. Exact numbers don't matter. If you don't feel like toying with percentages either just visually keep track of protein and make sure it's over 100 (preferably over 120 if you could manage it). Personally I can't manage it due to my food preferences, but if you can it would help a lot muscle-wise.0 -
Vinyasa yoga! I lift weights (not that heavy- I don't have a gym membership and my home equipment is pretty basic). I find that I am WAY more sore and can feel some serious strength gains after vinyasa classes. The impact of all those downward facing dogs, warrior poses and chaturangahs is pretty intense.0
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Always interested to see relevant research; if it's not too much trouble please do post those studies you mentioned. (Thanks!)
I'm quite up for including more protein; although it is not what I'd normally choose it seems to make me feel better. So often in the past I've had "just one apple" trigger a massive carb-binge so I'm keeping those numbers (carbs and sugar) well below the MFP recommended amounts.
I've just adjusted my 'goals' - does this look about right? I wasn't quite sure what to do re the carb/fat ratios.
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Terri – I did practice ashtanga yoga but I had to modify the routine (I got plantar fasciitis from being too fat, so I had to cut out the standing postures) – but basically my resistance workout is a modified version of ashtanga yoga (holding the strengthening positions, e.g. planks, for as long as possible).0
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