Do you view your old eating habits as a personal failing?
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Oh good, we're back to excuses and self-pity again.maillemaker wrote: »No, it's not a personal failing. It's ignorance.
Most people have no idea how many calories are in what they are eating until they already have a weight problem and then they start looking more closely at what they are eating.
When I was growing up, food was a pleasure to be enjoyed. And when you sat down to enjoy something, you wanted to enjoy it for as long as you could. Calories were never a concern. I had no idea how many calories were in things, nor did I care. I simply ate when I was hungry, and stopped eating when I was not hungry. This was simply the way my family ate. There was always more than enough food so that you could have "seconds" or "thirds" if you wanted.
Of course, this is a sure-fire way to eating a calorie surplus.
But I don't think most people think about this until they have a weight problem. Then they start thinking about what they are eating.
So now the question is, once you are no longer ignorant, then is it a personal failing if you go back to your old eating habits.
Yes, obviously then it is within your control and if you know what you are doing and you do it anyway, then you have failed.
However, the people who like to bang this "personal failure" drum are ignoring the massive biological drive your body has to try and revert back to its previous fat stores. Maintaining a caloric deficit is hard. You're going to be hungry. For a year or more just go get to maintenance. And when you get to maintenance, you may find you have to eat 10-15% less food than someone of the same weight who was never obese due to the metabolic slowdown caused by increased skeletal muscle efficiency in response to fat loss. It takes tremendous willpower to resist that discomfort for years.
So yes, failures to stick to a diet are personal failures, but there is a reason why most people fail at weight loss.
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maillemaker wrote: »It's interesting to me how many people here automatically associate the words "personally failure" with some sense of shame.
Probably because so many people throw that term around with the intent of shaming. It's often leveled at people who fail at weight loss with no regard for the biological mechanisms that work against weight loss. As if the decision to fail was made completely arbitrarily for no reason.
You are making excuses. As usual.
The biological mechanisms you talk about are temporary effects.
But really, there is no point discussing this with you because you have no desire to address anything in any way that gives you responsibility for your own actions.
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herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
This is only valid if nobody's priorities ever change. Hence the example of having changed priorities regarding commute time. It's just that people don't put a bunch of ridiculous emotion and moral judgments surrounding their commute to work, which is why it makes a better example because it's not clouded by value judgments.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
But that's just an opinion. Missing out on something you want/like is also a negative consequence. Just because you put "not being fat" at a higher priority does not mean everyone else does or should.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Let's say I commute to work every day for 5 years. It takes me 30 minutes each way. And then one day I decide that I want to get there in 25 minutes and take steps to shorten my commute.herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Does that make all my past commutes failures, or my past behavior a failing?
I think the "failure" thing requires someone to actually be getting a result they specifically do not want or were trying to avoid. I think a lot of people simply don't care whether or not they are as healthy as they can be and/or think the trade-off of eating how they like to be the better side of the bargain.
Not unless there were negative consequences for arriving after 25 minutes. Eating more calories than you need makes you fat. That's quite clearly an example of a negative consequence.
So, on a calorie counting site, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider not being fat as important or unimportant?
I'm not sure why 'failure' is such a contentious point here. Most of the people on MFP want to lose weight. This is necessary because they have failed to maintain a weight they were happy with.
There's no value judgment, just an acknowledgment of where they are and how they got there.
It's not worth getting hung up on. Everyone screws up at some point.
It is a loaded word. But it's still just a word. I was always terrified of screwing up. When you were a kid and you screwed up and the other kids laughed at you or something? Oh, it was cringe-worthy.
I was always super hard on myself when I messed things up and did anything to avoid feeling so awful.
Well, that was a big waste of time, wasn't it? Because yes, no point in it really. Mistakes happen.
Can't always get everything right out of the starting gate.
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herrspoons wrote: »I find it interesting that people are afraid of failure. Sometimes it's unavoidable and really just a learning opportunity.
For example, no one gets on a bike or in a car and rides or drives it away properly first time. You have to fail to do so, learn, and eventually succeed.
Failures generally allow you to learn from them (unless it's something like a failure to pack your parachute properly).
Yup. It's what I tell everyone but myself about failure, so I know it's a me issue and not an anything else issue. People look at me like I'm crazy, and I think it's because many of us don't look at failure as an opportunity to learn but as something you're unable to recover from.
Which, of course, is silly, but I'm also not saying that it's rational.
Ironically, your willingness to see your fear of failure as a personal failing is what will help you address it head on and stare it down.
I admire your self-awareness and the work you're doing. Stepping up and speaking your fears is actually a really emotionally brave thing to do, and I hope that it helps you to feel less afraid of "failing." I don't fear failure to the point of not trying, but to the point of self-sabotage or self-criticism beyond what is healthy? Oh, yeah. I get that. So, good on you for working to get stronger so that you can go after your goals without fear.
Thanks. This was very kind of you. :flowerforyou:
And it is rather ironic, isn't it? I just need to be brave enough to suck it up and confront it.
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Oh good, we're back to excuses and self-pity again.
Aaaand now we see why people see the "personal failure" meme as shameful. Because that's exactly how it's leveled - with no regard for biology.You are making excuses. As usual.
The biological mechanisms you talk about are temporary effects.
From the data I have provided before, the effect has been seen to last for weeks in the laboratory during the course of studies, and has been extrapolated to last for years afterwards.
So while they might be temporary, it probably lasts long enough to account for what derails most people from their weight loss within 2-3 years.But really, there is no point discussing this with you because you have no desire to address anything in any way that gives you responsibility for your own actions.
And you have no desire to address the biological mechanisms at play that resist weight loss.
But I'll keep on taking responsibility for my own actions. I should hit 30 ponds lost by next week. Probably have to go down a pants size, too.0 -
I was talking about the judgments and emotions associated with obesity.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
This is only valid if nobody's priorities ever change. Hence the example of having changed priorities regarding commute time. It's just that people don't put a bunch of ridiculous emotion and moral judgments surrounding their commute to work, which is why it makes a better example because it's not clouded by value judgments.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
But that's just an opinion. Missing out on something you want/like is also a negative consequence. Just because you put "not being fat" at a higher priority does not mean everyone else does or should.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Let's say I commute to work every day for 5 years. It takes me 30 minutes each way. And then one day I decide that I want to get there in 25 minutes and take steps to shorten my commute.herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Does that make all my past commutes failures, or my past behavior a failing?
I think the "failure" thing requires someone to actually be getting a result they specifically do not want or were trying to avoid. I think a lot of people simply don't care whether or not they are as healthy as they can be and/or think the trade-off of eating how they like to be the better side of the bargain.
Not unless there were negative consequences for arriving after 25 minutes. Eating more calories than you need makes you fat. That's quite clearly an example of a negative consequence.
So, on a calorie counting site, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider not being fat as important or unimportant?
I'm not sure why 'failure' is such a contentious point here. Most of the people on MFP want to lose weight. This is necessary because they have failed to maintain a weight they were happy with.
There's no value judgment, just an acknowledgment of where they are and how they got there.
It's not worth getting hung up on. Everyone screws up at some point.
Or because their priorities changed and they decided to use this site* as a calorie counting tool to achieve their goal. So, no, it is not necessary.This is necessary because they have failed to maintain a weight they were happy with.
(*Some people actually know that excess fat comes from overeating and realize that using a tool to count their intake is effective.)
FTR my argument is not that nobody on MFP has ever failed before. My point is that I do no consider my past as a failure, because failure has some requirements which were not meant. And since that is true for me I don't see why it couldn't be true for some others.
And no I'm not afraid of failure. In fact I laugh at, and even use gifs of my own failures.0 -
maillemaker wrote: »Oh good, we're back to excuses and self-pity again.
Aaaand now we see why people see the "personal failure" meme as shameful. Because that's exactly how it's leveled - with no regard for biology.You are making excuses. As usual.
The biological mechanisms you talk about are temporary effects.
From the data I have provided before, the effect has been seen to last for weeks in the laboratory during the course of studies, and has been extrapolated to last for years afterwards.
So while they might be temporary, it probably lasts long enough to account for what derails most people from their weight loss within 2-3 years.But really, there is no point discussing this with you because you have no desire to address anything in any way that gives you responsibility for your own actions.
And you have no desire to address the biological mechanisms at play that resist weight loss.
But I'll keep on taking responsibility for my own actions. I should hit 30 ponds lost by next week. Probably have to go down a pants size, too.
I have addressed the biological mechanisms... I acknowledge they exist, and know they're temporary. They're not an imperative that I have to give in to.
I plan to deal with mine through cardio, since it decreases my appetite.
It's just a phase, it will pass.
So, tell me, all the times in your life that you overate, that was biology, it was never you? Really?
That's what this whole idea of saying something was a personal failure was about.
I'll keep it personal. It was a personal failure on my part to have wanted to eat whole pans of brownies at one sitting. Or whole tins of kettle corn.
No shame. It wasn't biology. I had complex reasons for overeating, for sure. But it wasn't "biology".
Tell you one thing, though.
I've unraveled all of those reasons and have conquered both of those trigger foods. And they were my worst. I used to have other foods I had milder problems with like potatoes and bread and pasta.
I had bad habits. I've formed better ones.
35 pounds down, but I'm not logging those last 3 until I'm over the flu. I want to see if it sticks when I manage to eat more than 600 calories a day again.
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It is interesting to see posters who on the one hand post vociferously about the "science" and "biology" of it all, yet on the other hand clearly pre-suppose that people actually have the ability to make choices.
You only get to pick one.0 -
TheVirgoddess wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Yes. Point made.
I guess that depends on the definition used for "failing"
fail·ing
ˈfāliNG/Submit
noun
1.
a weakness, especially in character; a shortcoming.
"pride is a terrible failing"
synonyms: fault, shortcoming, weakness, imperfection, defect, flaw, frailty, foible, idiosyncrasy, vice
"Deborah accepted him despite his failings"
antonyms: strength
preposition
preposition: failing
2.
in default of; in the absence of.
"she longed to be with him and, failing that, to be on her own"
synonyms: in the absence of, lacking, barring, absent, without
"failing financial assistance, you will be bankrupt"
The first one is the more "grammatically correct" definition of "failing" used here.
I'll let you decide if it fits you.0 -
I don't have anything more to add to this thread at this point but I did enjoy reading everyone's thoughtful responses. Thank you for sharing them.
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I feel guilt and shame for nothing I eat....
But, maybe if I did adopt such an attitude, this weight loss thing would be easier. I'm much too lenient with myself when it comes to my diet. But Rome wasn't built in a day... and this Rome is starting from a Moon standpoint---craters, lack of resources and all.0 -
When I look back on how I used to eat I can only feel repulsion. But I know that I ate half gallons of ice cream in one sitting and those huge Butterfinger bars, as well as hot pockets and stouffers Mac and cheese to excess was because I was so depressed throughout college that I didn't care and no one else seemed to either. I gained forty pounds in college.
Since I've embarked on my weight loss journey and become more interested in fitness (running!!) I've found myself in a much better place and food isn't my go-to when I'm sad. And if I am sad and I want a thin mint or two, I make it fit into my calories for the day.0 -
Hmm... Failing at a juice diet (or at keeping new years resolutions or whatever plan someone tries to do and fails) doesn't seem the same as, for me anyway, feeling a sense of personal failure for habitual overeating. For putting on weight, knowing this is a problem, ignoring it and making excuses for it in favor of continuing self-destructive overeating - this just seems to me a different kind of personal failure than setting out to do a thing and not succeeding.
Like, I certainly would not put my failure as being on par with someone who "failed" to finish their climb of Mt. Everest, or failed to keep their New Years resolution to start their day with a green smoothie every morning.
I guess I was using a definition of failure that had to with what I feel was a lack of character. And I personally would put "Not caring" in that "lack of character" camp.0 -
Lourdesong wrote: »Hmm... Failing at a juice diet (or at keeping new years resolutions or whatever plan someone tries to do and fails) doesn't seem the same as, for me anyway, feeling a sense of personal failure for habitual overeating. For putting on weight, knowing this is a problem, ignoring it and making excuses for it in favor of continuing self-destructive overeating - this just seems to me a different kind of personal failure than setting out to do a thing and not succeeding.
Like, I certainly would not put my failure as being on par with someone who "failed" to finish their climb of Mt. Everest, or failed to keep their New Years resolution to start their day with a green smoothie every morning.
I guess I was using a definition of failure that had to with what I feel was a lack of character. And I personally would put "Not caring" in that "lack of character" camp.
Not sure I'm following - are you trying to say that allowing oneself to get fat shows a "lack of character"...?
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Lourdesong wrote: »Hmm... Failing at a juice diet (or at keeping new years resolutions or whatever plan someone tries to do and fails) doesn't seem the same as, for me anyway, feeling a sense of personal failure for habitual overeating. For putting on weight, knowing this is a problem, ignoring it and making excuses for it in favor of continuing self-destructive overeating - this just seems to me a different kind of personal failure than setting out to do a thing and not succeeding.
Like, I certainly would not put my failure as being on par with someone who "failed" to finish their climb of Mt. Everest, or failed to keep their New Years resolution to start their day with a green smoothie every morning.
I guess I was using a definition of failure that had to with what I feel was a lack of character. And I personally would put "Not caring" in that "lack of character" camp.
Not sure I'm following - are you trying to say that allowing oneself to get fat shows a "lack of character"...?
Well, it's generally not virtuous, it could be neutral I suppose. It wasn't neutral or virtuous in my case for sure...
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Lourdesong wrote: »I guess I was using a definition of failure that had to with what I feel was a lack of character. And I personally would put "Not caring" in that "lack of character" camp.
I wouldn't. (I'd consider it neutral.)0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »I guess I was using a definition of failure that had to with what I feel was a lack of character. And I personally would put "Not caring" in that "lack of character" camp.
I wouldn't. (I'd consider it neutral.)
I guess I was thinking of it more like when you start caring you likely wouldn't want to experience again a mentality of not caring. Which is why I wouldn't view not caring as neutral.
I'm not sure I can speak for anyone who has actually not cared, because I said I didn't care but I really did, I was not sincerely aloof about my overeating or my weight problem. It had always bothered me a great deal.
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I've known plenty of people who genuinely don't care. They're quite happy making the trade off in favour of eating more, more often.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »I guess I was using a definition of failure that had to with what I feel was a lack of character. And I personally would put "Not caring" in that "lack of character" camp.
I wouldn't. (I'd consider it neutral.)
Disregarding circumstances out of your control (health issues and such), why would you say it's neutral?
I wouldn't particularly use the term "character" just because it's a bit vague. But it certainly shows a lack of self-discipline and a need for instant gratification, along with many other things. All of which are negative qualities, in my own opinion.0 -
pavingnewpaths wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »I guess I was using a definition of failure that had to with what I feel was a lack of character. And I personally would put "Not caring" in that "lack of character" camp.
I wouldn't. (I'd consider it neutral.)
Disregarding circumstances out of your control (health issues and such), why would you say it's neutral?
I wouldn't particularly use the term "character" just because it's a bit vague. But it certainly shows a lack of self-discipline and a need for instant gratification, along with many other things. All of which are negative qualities, in my own opinion.
I'd view it more as a societal failure. At any other point in history this would not have happened. I understand there's a lot of shame, guilt and just emotional baggage in general associated with being overweight but when 30% of the worlds population is I think it moves beyond the individual. Take charge and responsibility to change your circumstances but for goodness sakes be kind to yourself -- you don't deserve contempt and derision.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »pavingnewpaths wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »I guess I was using a definition of failure that had to with what I feel was a lack of character. And I personally would put "Not caring" in that "lack of character" camp.
I wouldn't. (I'd consider it neutral.)
Disregarding circumstances out of your control (health issues and such), why would you say it's neutral?
I wouldn't particularly use the term "character" just because it's a bit vague. But it certainly shows a lack of self-discipline and a need for instant gratification, along with many other things. All of which are negative qualities, in my own opinion.
I'd view it more as a societal failure. At any other point in history this would not have happened. I understand there's a lot of shame, guilt and just emotional baggage in general associated with being overweight but when 30% of the worlds population is I think it moves beyond the individual. Take charge and responsibility to change your circumstances but for goodness sakes be kind to yourself -- you don't deserve contempt and derision.
You're the one who introduced and equated the consequential concepts of contempt, derision, shame and the like with failure. They don't go hand in hand of necessity. You keep posting as if they do.
It's okay to have done something wrong.
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I don't see them as failing. It is what it was at that time. I didn't have the knowledge I have now and I believe I still have a lot more to learn about myself that will further help lose weight nd then maintain, with a set of new rules and coping mechanisms.0
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I do not consider my old eating habits a failure. That is too black and white and the world simply doesn't work that way. My eating habits started as a kid, and that was the coping mechanism I picked up to cope with my surroundings. That was the only coping mechanism I knew being so young, and it obviously later turned into a very heavily ingrained habit. While the coping mechanism wasn't ideal by any means, I certainly do not consider it a failure. The coping mechanism could have been much worse, but it wasn't, and for that I am thankful. I dealt with the cards I had in front of me and while I have to fix it now, I am thankful that changing my eating habits are the only thing I need to fix. Basically, the point is, it could always be worse.0
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I don't see them as failing. It is what it was at that time. I didn't have the knowledge I have now and I believe I still have a lot more to learn about myself that will further help lose weight nd then maintain, with a set of new rules and coping mechanisms.
You said it perfectly. /thread
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mamapeach910 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »pavingnewpaths wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »I guess I was using a definition of failure that had to with what I feel was a lack of character. And I personally would put "Not caring" in that "lack of character" camp.
I wouldn't. (I'd consider it neutral.)
Disregarding circumstances out of your control (health issues and such), why would you say it's neutral?
I wouldn't particularly use the term "character" just because it's a bit vague. But it certainly shows a lack of self-discipline and a need for instant gratification, along with many other things. All of which are negative qualities, in my own opinion.
I'd view it more as a societal failure. At any other point in history this would not have happened. I understand there's a lot of shame, guilt and just emotional baggage in general associated with being overweight but when 30% of the worlds population is I think it moves beyond the individual. Take charge and responsibility to change your circumstances but for goodness sakes be kind to yourself -- you don't deserve contempt and derision.
You're the one who introduced and equated the consequential concepts of contempt, derision, shame and the like with failure. They don't go hand in hand of necessity. You keep posting as if they do.
It's okay to have done something wrong.
Actually, I think those concepts are the things we can't change! Those are so deeply embedded in society that an alternative, more positive way of thinking is very, very difficult. Also, we sort of need to feelings so that we can rationally and objectively criticize and better ourselves.
What I disagree with is the fact that this is a societal failure. Sure, our society is a massive part of the issue, but isn't the sole issue, or even the most liable, I think. If it were truly beyond the individual and due to society, a much larger portion of the population would be overweight.
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pavingnewpaths wrote: »I wouldn't particularly use the term "character" just because it's a bit vague. But it certainly shows a lack of self-discipline and a need for instant gratification, along with many other things. All of which are negative qualities, in my own opinion.
It also represents a choice. Why do you feel compelled to describe that choice in such judgemental language?
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Although I do not and have never had any weight to lose, I certainly had some questionable eating habits for a portion of my teen years when it comes to eating a well balanced diet. I wouldn't consider it a personal failing, but I was quite the picky eater.0
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BlackScorpio91 wrote: »DedRepublic wrote: »You just have to decide what you want more....brownies...or weight loss. Or count the calories in brownies and stay at a deficit.
My advice would be to have a cheat meal (NOT DAY) once a week. And on this meal add brownies. For me...Saturday night is cheat meal...usually family date night and date night with wifey. We always go out to eat...it is mandatory. On this meal I splurge a little.
This
My Cheat Meal from Saturday. I was down 3 lbs on the week and needed to make up som cals...plus I'm love the Monte Cristo meal so I added it to my usual. See...I splurge sometimes...but once and only once per week...sometimes I dream about this meal during the week especially if I'm low carbing it...makes it that much more satisfying. Now on the Cheat Meal it is best to limit it to 45 minutes or less and for me it takes the place of meals 5 and 6 on Saturday...so I do not eat again on the day after this meal. Also best to keep the Cheat Meal to night time as doing in over lunch may lead to more cheating throughout the day. Also this meal is productive for me as I usually workout heavy 2 hours before the meal...so I give those carbs some place to go.
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Man, that's evil. Do I even want to know what's on the plate with the fries? Yes, I do and then I can have fantasies about eating it.DedRepublic wrote: »BlackScorpio91 wrote: »DedRepublic wrote: »You just have to decide what you want more....brownies...or weight loss. Or count the calories in brownies and stay at a deficit.
My advice would be to have a cheat meal (NOT DAY) once a week. And on this meal add brownies. For me...Saturday night is cheat meal...usually family date night and date night with wifey. We always go out to eat...it is mandatory. On this meal I splurge a little.
This
My Cheat Meal from Saturday. I was down 3 lbs on the week and needed to make up som cals...plus I'm love the Monte Cristo meal so I added it to my usual. See...I splurge sometimes...but once and only once per week...sometimes I dream about this meal during the week especially if I'm low carbing it...makes it that much more satisfying. Now on the Cheat Meal it is best to limit it to 45 minutes or less and for me it takes the place of meals 5 and 6 on Saturday...so I do not eat again on the day after this meal. Also best to keep the Cheat Meal to night time as doing in over lunch may lead to more cheating throughout the day. Also this meal is productive for me as I usually workout heavy 2 hours before the meal...so I give those carbs some place to go.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX2btaDOBK8
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