Do you view your old eating habits as a personal failing?
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »Do you work on changing yourself and the way you think about food to make your weight loss successful or do you opt for workarounds and compromises you can be happy with? Perhaps a little bit of both?
What's the difference between the two?
Anytime you really want something, you'll have to make compromises. That's the nature of wanting.
I think the example we're using here is believing one brownie is the correct way (based on the assumption that's how the naturally not fat eat) and conditioning yourself to conform. Versus accepting you like lots of brownies but realize it's not compatible with your goals and working around that.
In the first scenario you're correcting a flaw in your person. In the second scenario, while it might work to control your weight, you're ignoring the root of the problem instead of fixing your perceived defect. Or at least that's how I interpret the discussion.
I think it's more that assuming that you have a goal to be healthy and of a healthy weight (even if you aren't actively thinking about your weight or trying to monitor it), is habitually overeating (on brownies or otherwise) such that you become overweight a failure?
Even phrased like that I find myself resisting the term--which maybe says something about me, I dunno--but it's not really about whether you want multiple brownies or not. It's about whether you end up eating them so regularly that you gain weight.
Like I mentioned that over-indulgence at restaurants was one of my issues in gaining weight. Lots of people I ate with seemed to do the same and weren't overweight--I never was the one who ate the most or anything. It's that they made more of a priority for working out or made sure to eat less at other times or other things that I, in that stage of my life, did not do.0 -
i think 'personal failing' is... not the right term (though now it might be)
i think its more... knowing its bad for you and not caring, or not realizing JUST how bad it is.
Once you start to make healthier choices, it starts to spread in your life. Last year, I quit smoking. This year, I'm working on my weight (eating less, exercising more), next year... who knows (will probably still be weight- i have a lot to lose! LOL)0 -
So, on a site generally used by humans, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider the importance of a trait to be binary?herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
But that's just an opinion. Missing out on something you want/like is also a negative consequence. Just because you put "not being fat" at a higher priority does not mean everyone else does or should.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Let's say I commute to work every day for 5 years. It takes me 30 minutes each way. And then one day I decide that I want to get there in 25 minutes and take steps to shorten my commute.herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Does that make all my past commutes failures, or my past behavior a failing?
I think the "failure" thing requires someone to actually be getting a result they specifically do not want or were trying to avoid. I think a lot of people simply don't care whether or not they are as healthy as they can be and/or think the trade-off of eating how they like to be the better side of the bargain.
Not unless there were negative consequences for arriving after 25 minutes. Eating more calories than you need makes you fat. That's quite clearly an example of a negative consequence.
So, on a calorie counting site, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider not being fat as important or unimportant?
I'm a robot, by the way.
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This is only valid if nobody's priorities ever change. Hence the example of having changed priorities regarding commute time. It's just that people don't put a bunch of ridiculous emotion and moral judgments surrounding their commute to work, which is why it makes a better example because it's not clouded by value judgments.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
But that's just an opinion. Missing out on something you want/like is also a negative consequence. Just because you put "not being fat" at a higher priority does not mean everyone else does or should.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Let's say I commute to work every day for 5 years. It takes me 30 minutes each way. And then one day I decide that I want to get there in 25 minutes and take steps to shorten my commute.herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Does that make all my past commutes failures, or my past behavior a failing?
I think the "failure" thing requires someone to actually be getting a result they specifically do not want or were trying to avoid. I think a lot of people simply don't care whether or not they are as healthy as they can be and/or think the trade-off of eating how they like to be the better side of the bargain.
Not unless there were negative consequences for arriving after 25 minutes. Eating more calories than you need makes you fat. That's quite clearly an example of a negative consequence.
So, on a calorie counting site, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider not being fat as important or unimportant?
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No, it's not a personal failing. It's ignorance.
Most people have no idea how many calories are in what they are eating until they already have a weight problem and then they start looking more closely at what they are eating.
When I was growing up, food was a pleasure to be enjoyed. And when you sat down to enjoy something, you wanted to enjoy it for as long as you could. Calories were never a concern. I had no idea how many calories were in things, nor did I care. I simply ate when I was hungry, and stopped eating when I was not hungry. This was simply the way my family ate. There was always more than enough food so that you could have "seconds" or "thirds" if you wanted.
Of course, this is a sure-fire way to eating a calorie surplus.
But I don't think most people think about this until they have a weight problem. Then they start thinking about what they are eating.
So now the question is, once you are no longer ignorant, then is it a personal failing if you go back to your old eating habits.
Yes, obviously then it is within your control and if you know what you are doing and you do it anyway, then you have failed.
However, the people who like to bang this "personal failure" drum are ignoring the massive biological drive your body has to try and revert back to its previous fat stores. Maintaining a caloric deficit is hard. You're going to be hungry. For a year or more just go get to maintenance. And when you get to maintenance, you may find you have to eat 10-15% less food than someone of the same weight who was never obese due to the metabolic slowdown caused by increased skeletal muscle efficiency in response to fat loss. It takes tremendous willpower to resist that discomfort for years.
So yes, failures to stick to a diet are personal failures, but there is a reason why most people fail at weight loss.
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herrspoons wrote: »I find it interesting that people are afraid of failure. Sometimes it's unavoidable and really just a learning opportunity.
For example, no one gets on a bike or in a car and rides or drives it away properly first time. You have to fail to do so, learn, and eventually succeed.
Failures generally allow you to learn from them (unless it's something like a failure to pack your parachute properly).
Yup. It's what I tell everyone but myself about failure, so I know it's a me issue and not an anything else issue. People look at me like I'm crazy, and I think it's because many of us don't look at failure as an opportunity to learn but as something you're unable to recover from.
Which, of course, is silly, but I'm also not saying that it's rational.
Ironically, your willingness to see your fear of failure as a personal failing is what will help you address it head on and stare it down.
I admire your self-awareness and the work you're doing. Stepping up and speaking your fears is actually a really emotionally brave thing to do, and I hope that it helps you to feel less afraid of "failing." I don't fear failure to the point of not trying, but to the point of self-sabotage or self-criticism beyond what is healthy? Oh, yeah. I get that. So, good on you for working to get stronger so that you can go after your goals without fear.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
But that's just an opinion. Missing out on something you want/like is also a negative consequence. Just because you put "not being fat" at a higher priority does not mean everyone else does or should.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Let's say I commute to work every day for 5 years. It takes me 30 minutes each way. And then one day I decide that I want to get there in 25 minutes and take steps to shorten my commute.herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Does that make all my past commutes failures, or my past behavior a failing?
I think the "failure" thing requires someone to actually be getting a result they specifically do not want or were trying to avoid. I think a lot of people simply don't care whether or not they are as healthy as they can be and/or think the trade-off of eating how they like to be the better side of the bargain.
Not unless there were negative consequences for arriving after 25 minutes. Eating more calories than you need makes you fat. That's quite clearly an example of a negative consequence.
So, on a calorie counting site, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider not being fat as important or unimportant?
Idk. If I wasn't losing weight now I would consider that failing. Most of my life I've been around my "ideal" weight (a few times tipping the balance and becoming too skinny or too heavy for my taste, but it always worked out and went back to baseline without any concerted effort or diet).
The last 5 years or so, I moved in with my boyfriend. He cooks delicious and fattening meals. I happily ate them until stuffed every night. I steadily put on 5 or more lbs a year. At a certain point I began to get fat and realized it wasn't just a phase, I was going to have to go on a friggin diet. Which I have and it's working. But at no time was I under the illusion that eating in excess wouldn't lead to weight gain. I was just enjoying it enough that it was worth it. (Although dieting and being overweight both suck enough that I don't intend to do it again).
I think it would make more sense to view my overeating as a failure if I had done it thinking it wouldn't lead to weight gain. Lol
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It's interesting to me how many people here automatically associate the words "personally failure" with some sense of shame.
Probably because so many people throw that term around with the intent of shaming. It's often leveled at people who fail at weight loss with no regard for the biological mechanisms that work against weight loss. As if the decision to fail was made completely arbitrarily for no reason.0 -
This sub-thread reminds me of the movie Defending Your Life.herrspoons wrote: »I find it interesting that people are afraid of failure. Sometimes it's unavoidable and really just a learning opportunity.
For example, no one gets on a bike or in a car and rides or drives it away properly first time. You have to fail to do so, learn, and eventually succeed.
Failures generally allow you to learn from them (unless it's something like a failure to pack your parachute properly).
Yup. It's what I tell everyone but myself about failure, so I know it's a me issue and not an anything else issue. People look at me like I'm crazy, and I think it's because many of us don't look at failure as an opportunity to learn but as something you're unable to recover from.
Which, of course, is silly, but I'm also not saying that it's rational.
Ironically, your willingness to see your fear of failure as a personal failing is what will help you address it head on and stare it down.
I admire your self-awareness and the work you're doing. Stepping up and speaking your fears is actually a really emotionally brave thing to do, and I hope that it helps you to feel less afraid of "failing." I don't fear failure to the point of not trying, but to the point of self-sabotage or self-criticism beyond what is healthy? Oh, yeah. I get that. So, good on you for working to get stronger so that you can go after your goals without fear.
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That you're using a false dichotomy.herrspoons wrote: »
So, on a site generally used by humans, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider the importance of a trait to be binary?herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
But that's just an opinion. Missing out on something you want/like is also a negative consequence. Just because you put "not being fat" at a higher priority does not mean everyone else does or should.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Let's say I commute to work every day for 5 years. It takes me 30 minutes each way. And then one day I decide that I want to get there in 25 minutes and take steps to shorten my commute.herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Does that make all my past commutes failures, or my past behavior a failing?
I think the "failure" thing requires someone to actually be getting a result they specifically do not want or were trying to avoid. I think a lot of people simply don't care whether or not they are as healthy as they can be and/or think the trade-off of eating how they like to be the better side of the bargain.
Not unless there were negative consequences for arriving after 25 minutes. Eating more calories than you need makes you fat. That's quite clearly an example of a negative consequence.
So, on a calorie counting site, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider not being fat as important or unimportant?
I'm a robot, by the way.
And your point is?
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Oh good, we're back to excuses and self-pity again.maillemaker wrote: »No, it's not a personal failing. It's ignorance.
Most people have no idea how many calories are in what they are eating until they already have a weight problem and then they start looking more closely at what they are eating.
When I was growing up, food was a pleasure to be enjoyed. And when you sat down to enjoy something, you wanted to enjoy it for as long as you could. Calories were never a concern. I had no idea how many calories were in things, nor did I care. I simply ate when I was hungry, and stopped eating when I was not hungry. This was simply the way my family ate. There was always more than enough food so that you could have "seconds" or "thirds" if you wanted.
Of course, this is a sure-fire way to eating a calorie surplus.
But I don't think most people think about this until they have a weight problem. Then they start thinking about what they are eating.
So now the question is, once you are no longer ignorant, then is it a personal failing if you go back to your old eating habits.
Yes, obviously then it is within your control and if you know what you are doing and you do it anyway, then you have failed.
However, the people who like to bang this "personal failure" drum are ignoring the massive biological drive your body has to try and revert back to its previous fat stores. Maintaining a caloric deficit is hard. You're going to be hungry. For a year or more just go get to maintenance. And when you get to maintenance, you may find you have to eat 10-15% less food than someone of the same weight who was never obese due to the metabolic slowdown caused by increased skeletal muscle efficiency in response to fat loss. It takes tremendous willpower to resist that discomfort for years.
So yes, failures to stick to a diet are personal failures, but there is a reason why most people fail at weight loss.
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maillemaker wrote: »It's interesting to me how many people here automatically associate the words "personally failure" with some sense of shame.
Probably because so many people throw that term around with the intent of shaming. It's often leveled at people who fail at weight loss with no regard for the biological mechanisms that work against weight loss. As if the decision to fail was made completely arbitrarily for no reason.
You are making excuses. As usual.
The biological mechanisms you talk about are temporary effects.
But really, there is no point discussing this with you because you have no desire to address anything in any way that gives you responsibility for your own actions.
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herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
This is only valid if nobody's priorities ever change. Hence the example of having changed priorities regarding commute time. It's just that people don't put a bunch of ridiculous emotion and moral judgments surrounding their commute to work, which is why it makes a better example because it's not clouded by value judgments.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
But that's just an opinion. Missing out on something you want/like is also a negative consequence. Just because you put "not being fat" at a higher priority does not mean everyone else does or should.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Let's say I commute to work every day for 5 years. It takes me 30 minutes each way. And then one day I decide that I want to get there in 25 minutes and take steps to shorten my commute.herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Does that make all my past commutes failures, or my past behavior a failing?
I think the "failure" thing requires someone to actually be getting a result they specifically do not want or were trying to avoid. I think a lot of people simply don't care whether or not they are as healthy as they can be and/or think the trade-off of eating how they like to be the better side of the bargain.
Not unless there were negative consequences for arriving after 25 minutes. Eating more calories than you need makes you fat. That's quite clearly an example of a negative consequence.
So, on a calorie counting site, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider not being fat as important or unimportant?
I'm not sure why 'failure' is such a contentious point here. Most of the people on MFP want to lose weight. This is necessary because they have failed to maintain a weight they were happy with.
There's no value judgment, just an acknowledgment of where they are and how they got there.
It's not worth getting hung up on. Everyone screws up at some point.
It is a loaded word. But it's still just a word. I was always terrified of screwing up. When you were a kid and you screwed up and the other kids laughed at you or something? Oh, it was cringe-worthy.
I was always super hard on myself when I messed things up and did anything to avoid feeling so awful.
Well, that was a big waste of time, wasn't it? Because yes, no point in it really. Mistakes happen.
Can't always get everything right out of the starting gate.
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herrspoons wrote: »I find it interesting that people are afraid of failure. Sometimes it's unavoidable and really just a learning opportunity.
For example, no one gets on a bike or in a car and rides or drives it away properly first time. You have to fail to do so, learn, and eventually succeed.
Failures generally allow you to learn from them (unless it's something like a failure to pack your parachute properly).
Yup. It's what I tell everyone but myself about failure, so I know it's a me issue and not an anything else issue. People look at me like I'm crazy, and I think it's because many of us don't look at failure as an opportunity to learn but as something you're unable to recover from.
Which, of course, is silly, but I'm also not saying that it's rational.
Ironically, your willingness to see your fear of failure as a personal failing is what will help you address it head on and stare it down.
I admire your self-awareness and the work you're doing. Stepping up and speaking your fears is actually a really emotionally brave thing to do, and I hope that it helps you to feel less afraid of "failing." I don't fear failure to the point of not trying, but to the point of self-sabotage or self-criticism beyond what is healthy? Oh, yeah. I get that. So, good on you for working to get stronger so that you can go after your goals without fear.
Thanks. This was very kind of you. :flowerforyou:
And it is rather ironic, isn't it? I just need to be brave enough to suck it up and confront it.
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Oh good, we're back to excuses and self-pity again.
Aaaand now we see why people see the "personal failure" meme as shameful. Because that's exactly how it's leveled - with no regard for biology.You are making excuses. As usual.
The biological mechanisms you talk about are temporary effects.
From the data I have provided before, the effect has been seen to last for weeks in the laboratory during the course of studies, and has been extrapolated to last for years afterwards.
So while they might be temporary, it probably lasts long enough to account for what derails most people from their weight loss within 2-3 years.But really, there is no point discussing this with you because you have no desire to address anything in any way that gives you responsibility for your own actions.
And you have no desire to address the biological mechanisms at play that resist weight loss.
But I'll keep on taking responsibility for my own actions. I should hit 30 ponds lost by next week. Probably have to go down a pants size, too.0 -
I was talking about the judgments and emotions associated with obesity.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
This is only valid if nobody's priorities ever change. Hence the example of having changed priorities regarding commute time. It's just that people don't put a bunch of ridiculous emotion and moral judgments surrounding their commute to work, which is why it makes a better example because it's not clouded by value judgments.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
But that's just an opinion. Missing out on something you want/like is also a negative consequence. Just because you put "not being fat" at a higher priority does not mean everyone else does or should.herrspoons wrote: »LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Let's say I commute to work every day for 5 years. It takes me 30 minutes each way. And then one day I decide that I want to get there in 25 minutes and take steps to shorten my commute.herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Does that make all my past commutes failures, or my past behavior a failing?
I think the "failure" thing requires someone to actually be getting a result they specifically do not want or were trying to avoid. I think a lot of people simply don't care whether or not they are as healthy as they can be and/or think the trade-off of eating how they like to be the better side of the bargain.
Not unless there were negative consequences for arriving after 25 minutes. Eating more calories than you need makes you fat. That's quite clearly an example of a negative consequence.
So, on a calorie counting site, do you think the vast majority of visitors would consider not being fat as important or unimportant?
I'm not sure why 'failure' is such a contentious point here. Most of the people on MFP want to lose weight. This is necessary because they have failed to maintain a weight they were happy with.
There's no value judgment, just an acknowledgment of where they are and how they got there.
It's not worth getting hung up on. Everyone screws up at some point.
Or because their priorities changed and they decided to use this site* as a calorie counting tool to achieve their goal. So, no, it is not necessary.This is necessary because they have failed to maintain a weight they were happy with.
(*Some people actually know that excess fat comes from overeating and realize that using a tool to count their intake is effective.)
FTR my argument is not that nobody on MFP has ever failed before. My point is that I do no consider my past as a failure, because failure has some requirements which were not meant. And since that is true for me I don't see why it couldn't be true for some others.
And no I'm not afraid of failure. In fact I laugh at, and even use gifs of my own failures.0 -
maillemaker wrote: »Oh good, we're back to excuses and self-pity again.
Aaaand now we see why people see the "personal failure" meme as shameful. Because that's exactly how it's leveled - with no regard for biology.You are making excuses. As usual.
The biological mechanisms you talk about are temporary effects.
From the data I have provided before, the effect has been seen to last for weeks in the laboratory during the course of studies, and has been extrapolated to last for years afterwards.
So while they might be temporary, it probably lasts long enough to account for what derails most people from their weight loss within 2-3 years.But really, there is no point discussing this with you because you have no desire to address anything in any way that gives you responsibility for your own actions.
And you have no desire to address the biological mechanisms at play that resist weight loss.
But I'll keep on taking responsibility for my own actions. I should hit 30 ponds lost by next week. Probably have to go down a pants size, too.
I have addressed the biological mechanisms... I acknowledge they exist, and know they're temporary. They're not an imperative that I have to give in to.
I plan to deal with mine through cardio, since it decreases my appetite.
It's just a phase, it will pass.
So, tell me, all the times in your life that you overate, that was biology, it was never you? Really?
That's what this whole idea of saying something was a personal failure was about.
I'll keep it personal. It was a personal failure on my part to have wanted to eat whole pans of brownies at one sitting. Or whole tins of kettle corn.
No shame. It wasn't biology. I had complex reasons for overeating, for sure. But it wasn't "biology".
Tell you one thing, though.
I've unraveled all of those reasons and have conquered both of those trigger foods. And they were my worst. I used to have other foods I had milder problems with like potatoes and bread and pasta.
I had bad habits. I've formed better ones.
35 pounds down, but I'm not logging those last 3 until I'm over the flu. I want to see if it sticks when I manage to eat more than 600 calories a day again.
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It is interesting to see posters who on the one hand post vociferously about the "science" and "biology" of it all, yet on the other hand clearly pre-suppose that people actually have the ability to make choices.
You only get to pick one.0 -
TheVirgoddess wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »If someone becomes fat then they have failed to eat at a maintenance level of calories. This may be intentional or through ignorance.
Yes or no?
Yes. Point made.
I guess that depends on the definition used for "failing"
fail·ing
ˈfāliNG/Submit
noun
1.
a weakness, especially in character; a shortcoming.
"pride is a terrible failing"
synonyms: fault, shortcoming, weakness, imperfection, defect, flaw, frailty, foible, idiosyncrasy, vice
"Deborah accepted him despite his failings"
antonyms: strength
preposition
preposition: failing
2.
in default of; in the absence of.
"she longed to be with him and, failing that, to be on her own"
synonyms: in the absence of, lacking, barring, absent, without
"failing financial assistance, you will be bankrupt"
The first one is the more "grammatically correct" definition of "failing" used here.
I'll let you decide if it fits you.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX2btaDOBK8
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