Sugars
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Monklady123 wrote: »Lol at this thread. I'm new here and was fascinated to see a 9-page thread about sugar. Full confession: I have not read all nine pages.
As for sugar, I'm cutting out most "empty" sugar -- i.e., cookies, cake, and my personal downfall Snickers. Was this thread originally about fruit? I'm not cutting that out at all, except for watermelon which for some reason, sadly, upsets my stomach.
I'm also not worrying about added sugar in things like ketchup, or salad dressing, etc. At least not right now. I don't eat enough of it to worry about and if I'm having french fries then I'm having ketchup or else what's the point? lol.
Anyway, I belong to another message board community that has its own "touchy" subjects (religion and politics would be two biggies, although some of the most innocent things can derail quickly, lol), and it looks like sugar is one of those subjects here. I might read all nine pages, or I might not. lol
please explain to me how a piece of cake would be an "empty" calorie? I am pretty sure that it will provide energy and also contains fat and carbs, so not sure how that is empty.
also, your post makes no sense...you say you avoid sugar in cookies and cake, but the you are not worried about the sugar in ketchup or salad dressing? Please explain how ketchup sugar is better than cookie sugar?0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »
Let me first reiterate what I said - that long term AND excess refined sugar intake can cause medical issues (NOT that any refined sugar intake at all is a problem). The link you provided proves that point. From that very link:stevencloser wrote: »
And excess and long-term refined sugar intake.ihatetodietalways wrote: »Diabetes Epidemic & You, by Dr. J.R. Kraft. He is a renowned doctor in Chicago and he publishes the fact that fasting glucose can miss 20% of diabetics. Yes. He has looked at 15,000 people from age 3-90. There is a lot of information in this book.
And there are TONS of papers about low carb diets. Phinney, Volek, Pulmetter, Noakes, Attia, and others are leading the research.
Stop telling people to eat sugars and instead tell them, go check your fasting insulin with a simple blood test at the doctor. Furthermore, since insulin resistance is a true phenomenon (it is observed before pre-diabetes), we may want to give our pancreas a break and take the carbs slowly. I don't vilify sugar and carbs. There are people who chose to limit them. That is all.
You are equating people with a medical reason for reducing carbs with people who have normal pancreatic function (the majority of the population). They are not the same. Too many carbs does not cause insulin resistance, diabetes, etc. The inability to properly regulate blood glucose is the main SYMPTOM of those medical issues. The causes are many and include:- genetics
- excess weight
- age
- long term use of certain medications, including statins and antidepressants
Nope.
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/myths/
Note, that says sugar-sweetened beverages should be avoided to PREVENT diabetes, not simply to manage one's existing diabetes.The American Diabetes Association recommends that people should avoid intake of sugar-sweetened beverages to help prevent diabetes. Sugar-sweetened beverages include beverages like:
regular soda
fruit punch
fruit drinks
energy drinks
sports drinks
sweet tea
other sugary drinks
In fact, the ADA source you linked supports the idea that long term and (not or) excess refined sugar intake can cause diabetes. It supports the intake of sugars and desserts in moderated amounts as part of a balanced diet and specifically tells people to avoid drinks with high added sugar contents.
Have you read it? It specifically lists that sugar doesn't cause diabetes, just that consumption of sugar sweetened beverages in particular (no other food things, just drinks with sugar in it) is correlated with diabetes. A phrase whose underlying truth that can range from something like the connection betweeen the amount of people swimming and ice cream sales being correlated to possible causation.
I'd be willing to bet that the correlation with sugar-sweetened beverages stems from the fact that many people get all of their hydration from sodas or juice. There are indeed people who do not drink any water, and those people probably drink a lot of calories without realizing it, which adds to their overall calorie surplus leading to weight gain and to health effects like diabetes and heart disease.
Which is probably why some people can say "All I did was cut out sodas and lost 20 pounds!" If you eat at maintenance but drink 2 cans of Coke a day and an 8-oz glass of orange juice, that is nearly a 400-calorie surplus right there.
It's not the sugar in the sodas, it's the calories in them that people don't track. They really add up.
QFT.
During my run up to my max weight, my one constant was a 2-liter bottle of Coke Classic. I would drink at least half a bottle every night (and let's not talk about the fountain sodas during the day). Anecdotal, of course, but I'm guessing the 600-800 calories of soda every day was a more plausible reason for my obesity than sugar demons magically expanding the fat cells in my lower stomach area (and really, what the *kitten* was that about?).0 -
Monklady123 wrote: »Lol at this thread. I'm new here and was fascinated to see a 9-page thread about sugar. Full confession: I have not read all nine pages.
As for sugar, I'm cutting out most "empty" sugar -- i.e., cookies, cake, and my personal downfall Snickers. Was this thread originally about fruit? I'm not cutting that out at all, except for watermelon which for some reason, sadly, upsets my stomach.
I'm also not worrying about added sugar in things like ketchup, or salad dressing, etc. At least not right now. I don't eat enough of it to worry about and if I'm having french fries then I'm having ketchup or else what's the point? lol.
Anyway, I belong to another message board community that has its own "touchy" subjects (religion and politics would be two biggies, although some of the most innocent things can derail quickly, lol), and it looks like sugar is one of those subjects here. I might read all nine pages, or I might not. lol
please explain to me how a piece of cake would be an "empty" calorie? I am pretty sure that it will provide energy and also contains fat and carbs, so not sure how that is empty.
also, your post makes no sense...you say you avoid sugar in cookies and cake, but the you are not worried about the sugar in ketchup or salad dressing? Please explain how ketchup sugar is better than cookie sugar?
Harsh, but true. MonkLady may not have made that connection yet, but at least she (I'm assuming because of the handle) doesn't seem fanatical. There is reason here, I sense it.
@monklady123 - It sounds like your downfall might actually be high-calorie dessert type foods, not the sugar they contain. As NDJ pointed out, there's really not much of a difference between the sugars in the cake and the sugars in the ketchup. Just something to ponder.
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Quite true that sugar in cake is the same sugar as in ketchup. But I can guarantee that I'm not eating as much ketchup as I might eat chocolate chip cookies. I have a stuck "off" button when it comes to cookies, whereas a little bit of ketchup is just enough.
-- And, since I've just started on this lifestyle change I'm not trying to do everything at once. Baby steps will keep me heading in the right direction.
Alyssa, I might read the whole thing if I have time. And of course you're right, multiple pages doesn't necessarily mean people haven't been polite. However, in my experience on the other board that's almost always what it does mean, especially when the thread title indicates a "hot" topic. But multiple pages can also mean a productive discussion, so I'll look forward to seeing which way this sugar thread went.0 -
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No, they don't. They go out of their way to say that eating too much sugar doesn't (by itself) cause diabetes. Which is different from saying it's not a risk factor. For example, not knowing how to swim won't cause you to drown - on dry land, for example, as you actually have to be in a body of water to drown - but it is a risk factor.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »
Let me first reiterate what I said - that long term AND excess refined sugar intake can cause medical issues (NOT that any refined sugar intake at all is a problem). The link you provided proves that point. From that very link:stevencloser wrote: »
And excess and long-term refined sugar intake.ihatetodietalways wrote: »Diabetes Epidemic & You, by Dr. J.R. Kraft. He is a renowned doctor in Chicago and he publishes the fact that fasting glucose can miss 20% of diabetics. Yes. He has looked at 15,000 people from age 3-90. There is a lot of information in this book.
And there are TONS of papers about low carb diets. Phinney, Volek, Pulmetter, Noakes, Attia, and others are leading the research.
Stop telling people to eat sugars and instead tell them, go check your fasting insulin with a simple blood test at the doctor. Furthermore, since insulin resistance is a true phenomenon (it is observed before pre-diabetes), we may want to give our pancreas a break and take the carbs slowly. I don't vilify sugar and carbs. There are people who chose to limit them. That is all.
You are equating people with a medical reason for reducing carbs with people who have normal pancreatic function (the majority of the population). They are not the same. Too many carbs does not cause insulin resistance, diabetes, etc. The inability to properly regulate blood glucose is the main SYMPTOM of those medical issues. The causes are many and include:- genetics
- excess weight
- age
- long term use of certain medications, including statins and antidepressants
Nope.
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/myths/
Note, that says sugar-sweetened beverages should be avoided to PREVENT diabetes, not simply to manage one's existing diabetes.The American Diabetes Association recommends that people should avoid intake of sugar-sweetened beverages to help prevent diabetes. Sugar-sweetened beverages include beverages like:
regular soda
fruit punch
fruit drinks
energy drinks
sports drinks
sweet tea
other sugary drinks
In fact, the ADA source you linked supports the idea that long term and (not or) excess refined sugar intake can cause diabetes. It supports the intake of sugars and desserts in moderated amounts as part of a balanced diet and specifically tells people to avoid drinks with high added sugar contents.
Have you read it? It specifically lists that sugar doesn't cause diabetes, just that consumption of sugar sweetened beverages in particular (no other food things, just drinks with sugar in it) is correlated with diabetes. A phrase whose underlying truth that can range from something like the connection betweeen the amount of people swimming and ice cream sales being correlated to possible causation.
Yes, I read it. But apparently, you haven't read what I repeatedly wrote here. That added sugars in high amounts and over long term is not a cause of diabetes but a risk factor. The relevant post I replied to here was listing risk factors for metabolic disease, not causes, and I added sustained high amount of added sugar intake as one such factor.
Then you read it but didn't understand. Sugar is not a risk factor named. They go specifically out of their way to tell you that eating too much sugar is not a risk in itself.0 -
No, they don't. They go out of their way to say that eating too much sugar doesn't (by itself) cause diabetes. Which is different from saying it's not a risk factor. For example, not knowing how to swim won't cause you to drown - on dry land, for example, as you actually have to be in a body of water to drown - but it is a risk factor.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »
Let me first reiterate what I said - that long term AND excess refined sugar intake can cause medical issues (NOT that any refined sugar intake at all is a problem). The link you provided proves that point. From that very link:stevencloser wrote: »
And excess and long-term refined sugar intake.ihatetodietalways wrote: »Diabetes Epidemic & You, by Dr. J.R. Kraft. He is a renowned doctor in Chicago and he publishes the fact that fasting glucose can miss 20% of diabetics. Yes. He has looked at 15,000 people from age 3-90. There is a lot of information in this book.
And there are TONS of papers about low carb diets. Phinney, Volek, Pulmetter, Noakes, Attia, and others are leading the research.
Stop telling people to eat sugars and instead tell them, go check your fasting insulin with a simple blood test at the doctor. Furthermore, since insulin resistance is a true phenomenon (it is observed before pre-diabetes), we may want to give our pancreas a break and take the carbs slowly. I don't vilify sugar and carbs. There are people who chose to limit them. That is all.
You are equating people with a medical reason for reducing carbs with people who have normal pancreatic function (the majority of the population). They are not the same. Too many carbs does not cause insulin resistance, diabetes, etc. The inability to properly regulate blood glucose is the main SYMPTOM of those medical issues. The causes are many and include:- genetics
- excess weight
- age
- long term use of certain medications, including statins and antidepressants
Nope.
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/myths/
Note, that says sugar-sweetened beverages should be avoided to PREVENT diabetes, not simply to manage one's existing diabetes.The American Diabetes Association recommends that people should avoid intake of sugar-sweetened beverages to help prevent diabetes. Sugar-sweetened beverages include beverages like:
regular soda
fruit punch
fruit drinks
energy drinks
sports drinks
sweet tea
other sugary drinks
In fact, the ADA source you linked supports the idea that long term and (not or) excess refined sugar intake can cause diabetes. It supports the intake of sugars and desserts in moderated amounts as part of a balanced diet and specifically tells people to avoid drinks with high added sugar contents.
Have you read it? It specifically lists that sugar doesn't cause diabetes, just that consumption of sugar sweetened beverages in particular (no other food things, just drinks with sugar in it) is correlated with diabetes. A phrase whose underlying truth that can range from something like the connection betweeen the amount of people swimming and ice cream sales being correlated to possible causation.
Yes, I read it. But apparently, you haven't read what I repeatedly wrote here. That added sugars in high amounts and over long term is not a cause of diabetes but a risk factor. The relevant post I replied to here was listing risk factors for metabolic disease, not causes, and I added sustained high amount of added sugar intake as one such factor.
Then you read it but didn't understand. Sugar is not a risk factor named. They go specifically out of their way to tell you that eating too much sugar is not a risk in itself.
And this relates to the sugar debate how, exactly? <confused>0 -
No, they don't. They go out of their way to say that eating too much sugar doesn't (by itself) cause diabetes. Which is different from saying it's not a risk factor. For example, not knowing how to swim won't cause you to drown - on dry land, for example, as you actually have to be in a body of water to drown - but it is a risk factor.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »
Let me first reiterate what I said - that long term AND excess refined sugar intake can cause medical issues (NOT that any refined sugar intake at all is a problem). The link you provided proves that point. From that very link:stevencloser wrote: »
And excess and long-term refined sugar intake.ihatetodietalways wrote: »Diabetes Epidemic & You, by Dr. J.R. Kraft. He is a renowned doctor in Chicago and he publishes the fact that fasting glucose can miss 20% of diabetics. Yes. He has looked at 15,000 people from age 3-90. There is a lot of information in this book.
And there are TONS of papers about low carb diets. Phinney, Volek, Pulmetter, Noakes, Attia, and others are leading the research.
Stop telling people to eat sugars and instead tell them, go check your fasting insulin with a simple blood test at the doctor. Furthermore, since insulin resistance is a true phenomenon (it is observed before pre-diabetes), we may want to give our pancreas a break and take the carbs slowly. I don't vilify sugar and carbs. There are people who chose to limit them. That is all.
You are equating people with a medical reason for reducing carbs with people who have normal pancreatic function (the majority of the population). They are not the same. Too many carbs does not cause insulin resistance, diabetes, etc. The inability to properly regulate blood glucose is the main SYMPTOM of those medical issues. The causes are many and include:- genetics
- excess weight
- age
- long term use of certain medications, including statins and antidepressants
Nope.
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/myths/
Note, that says sugar-sweetened beverages should be avoided to PREVENT diabetes, not simply to manage one's existing diabetes.The American Diabetes Association recommends that people should avoid intake of sugar-sweetened beverages to help prevent diabetes. Sugar-sweetened beverages include beverages like:
regular soda
fruit punch
fruit drinks
energy drinks
sports drinks
sweet tea
other sugary drinks
In fact, the ADA source you linked supports the idea that long term and (not or) excess refined sugar intake can cause diabetes. It supports the intake of sugars and desserts in moderated amounts as part of a balanced diet and specifically tells people to avoid drinks with high added sugar contents.
Have you read it? It specifically lists that sugar doesn't cause diabetes, just that consumption of sugar sweetened beverages in particular (no other food things, just drinks with sugar in it) is correlated with diabetes. A phrase whose underlying truth that can range from something like the connection betweeen the amount of people swimming and ice cream sales being correlated to possible causation.
Yes, I read it. But apparently, you haven't read what I repeatedly wrote here. That added sugars in high amounts and over long term is not a cause of diabetes but a risk factor. The relevant post I replied to here was listing risk factors for metabolic disease, not causes, and I added sustained high amount of added sugar intake as one such factor.
Then you read it but didn't understand. Sugar is not a risk factor named. They go specifically out of their way to tell you that eating too much sugar is not a risk in itself.
To quote someone else, "Eating calories is a risk factor, so should we stop eating calories?" Every time you get in your car, you risk getting into an accident and dying; that risk is way higher than the risk of sugar causing diabetes (actually, sugar causing obesity which causes diabetes), but you don't see people trading in all of their cars to commute on foot, do you?0 -
No, they don't. They go out of their way to say that eating too much sugar doesn't (by itself) cause diabetes. Which is different from saying it's not a risk factor. For example, not knowing how to swim won't cause you to drown - on dry land, for example, as you actually have to be in a body of water to drown - but it is a risk factor.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »
Let me first reiterate what I said - that long term AND excess refined sugar intake can cause medical issues (NOT that any refined sugar intake at all is a problem). The link you provided proves that point. From that very link:stevencloser wrote: »
And excess and long-term refined sugar intake.ihatetodietalways wrote: »Diabetes Epidemic & You, by Dr. J.R. Kraft. He is a renowned doctor in Chicago and he publishes the fact that fasting glucose can miss 20% of diabetics. Yes. He has looked at 15,000 people from age 3-90. There is a lot of information in this book.
And there are TONS of papers about low carb diets. Phinney, Volek, Pulmetter, Noakes, Attia, and others are leading the research.
Stop telling people to eat sugars and instead tell them, go check your fasting insulin with a simple blood test at the doctor. Furthermore, since insulin resistance is a true phenomenon (it is observed before pre-diabetes), we may want to give our pancreas a break and take the carbs slowly. I don't vilify sugar and carbs. There are people who chose to limit them. That is all.
You are equating people with a medical reason for reducing carbs with people who have normal pancreatic function (the majority of the population). They are not the same. Too many carbs does not cause insulin resistance, diabetes, etc. The inability to properly regulate blood glucose is the main SYMPTOM of those medical issues. The causes are many and include:- genetics
- excess weight
- age
- long term use of certain medications, including statins and antidepressants
Nope.
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/myths/
Note, that says sugar-sweetened beverages should be avoided to PREVENT diabetes, not simply to manage one's existing diabetes.The American Diabetes Association recommends that people should avoid intake of sugar-sweetened beverages to help prevent diabetes. Sugar-sweetened beverages include beverages like:
regular soda
fruit punch
fruit drinks
energy drinks
sports drinks
sweet tea
other sugary drinks
In fact, the ADA source you linked supports the idea that long term and (not or) excess refined sugar intake can cause diabetes. It supports the intake of sugars and desserts in moderated amounts as part of a balanced diet and specifically tells people to avoid drinks with high added sugar contents.
Have you read it? It specifically lists that sugar doesn't cause diabetes, just that consumption of sugar sweetened beverages in particular (no other food things, just drinks with sugar in it) is correlated with diabetes. A phrase whose underlying truth that can range from something like the connection betweeen the amount of people swimming and ice cream sales being correlated to possible causation.
Yes, I read it. But apparently, you haven't read what I repeatedly wrote here. That added sugars in high amounts and over long term is not a cause of diabetes but a risk factor. The relevant post I replied to here was listing risk factors for metabolic disease, not causes, and I added sustained high amount of added sugar intake as one such factor.
Then you read it but didn't understand. Sugar is not a risk factor named. They go specifically out of their way to tell you that eating too much sugar is not a risk in itself.
#somuchfacepalm0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »You are ignoring the context of this thread and what people actually said to make up a problem that you are then pretending to address.
I can hardly be making up something I quoted from someone else. The context is that a sudden knee-jerk reaction to comments saying sugars in processed foods are a concern did occur, and as such, members may respond to it. You are the one ignoring that context.Absolutely no one has a problem with the idea that excess sugar intake can have negative health effects (including, in large part that it often results in excess calories or nutritionally deficient diets--the WHO reasoning that many of us have repeatedly agreed with).
"Absolutely no one..." again, making blanket, broad statements and pretending that's not a problem. You didn't even bother to say "absolutely no one in this thread" or any other qualifier. Precision matters.As I said above, the debate is over what "excess" is,
Just because you said it does not mean everyone else has to follow those parameters of the "debate".Often it is suggested that ANY added sugar is bad (and here we have someone claiming that plus that two pieces of fruit are too much) and that's what we are arguing against.
Then you really shouldn't be arguing against me, since that is not something I have ever said. Yet what I say seems to be bugging you for some odd reason.Again, you are intentionally ignoring context. Everything is bad in excess--saying something isn't bad doesn't mean "go insane with it." Among other things, everyone says "within your calories and a nutritionally balanced diet" which makes it basically impossible to be extreme or eat huge amounts of sugar regularly (unless you are an endurance athlete and in pretty good shape/a bigger person, I suppose). The specific person we were talking to here was looking at a limit of 24 grams for ALL sugar! This is why you are being grouped with those who are anti all sugar--suggesting this is at all a thread about excess consumption raises questions about why you think that, as two pieces of fruit or the other things that have been recommended here are NOT excess, IMO (and I told you what I'd consider excess and not upthread).
And the specific person I responded to first made a blanket statement that sugar is not bad (again, as opposed to a precise and correct statement that it isn't bad in all quantities. Further, if one is going to say to stay "within your calories with a nutritionally balanced diet", then one needs to be receptive to arguments about things that can make it difficult to do so, and added sugars in high quantities often can (independent of their calorie contents alone). That is context you are ignoring - intentionally or not I do not know, since unlike you I cannot read minds.There are NO indications that this is relevant to OP's post
It isn't. It's relevant to other posts in this thread. If you are accusing me of not directly addressing the OP's question in many of my posts here, I stand guilty. But discussion threads have a tendency to go beyond the OP's defined parameters, and this thread is far from the only example, AND it had thus gone before I began my participation in it. If it is your contention that every post responding to another post unrelated to OP's question is out of bounds, aren't you doing the same thing by responding to my posts that you say aren't relevant to the OP's question?
You can tend to think anything you like, but just because "many people" don't experience cravings just because they eat foods high in added sugars doesn't mean others don't also. Just as the fact that most people who drink alcohol will not become alcoholics and have health issues associated with alcohol consumption doesn't mean that alcohol isn't a bigger risk factor to health than anything else we consume (water, for example), that many who eat sugary stuff won't have adverse effects doesn't mean that it cannot be a risk factor for metabolic disease. You say people are not for excess consumption, yet, posts that express concern about excess sugar consumption are suddenly labeled with extremism, including by yourself. And I didn't "bring it out of the blue" - that debate had been going on in this thread for some time before I arrived in it.and many, many people don't experience cravings just because they eat food with sugar. Indeed, I tend to think that's a psychological reaction basically encouraged by labeling sugar as a whole "bad." Thus, bringing it in out of the blue as a reason to avoid sugar and to claim that eating any sugar makes meeting a calorie goal difficult--when OP was specifically asking the common question about whether sugar mattered IF you, among other things, were meeting that goal, and when everyone had said that IF you are meeting your goal it's not a problem--supports the conclusion that you ARE part of the more extreme anti sugar sorts. Clearly if someone tries and cannot meet their limit then they should figure out what's going on and look at whether there's some reason they are overeating despite knowing what they should eat.0 -
No. That's not how it works. Saying that sugar isn't bad doesn't lack precision or correctness. If you want to assert that sugar is bad, you need to define precisely and correctly the parameters in which it is so. If X amount of sugar is bad, it's the X amount, rather than something inherent in the sugar. What's the X amount, then, in your view?And the specific person I responded to first made a blanket statement that sugar is not bad (again, as opposed to a precise and correct statement that it isn't bad in all quantities.
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Anything consumed in excess can create health issues, yes. But not everything creates the same health issues, and the health issues created by the overconsumption of each item is not equally serious or equally reversible. What doesn't hold water is pretending like it is. Overconsumption of alcohol, for example, is not the same as overconsumption of water, and overconsumption of added sugars is not the same as eating one too many broccoli heads.snickerscharlie wrote: »You can take the name of any Gods or Deities you like, but your very reaction about "anti-sugar" brigade shows the problem I am trying to address. There are a lot of people here - yourself included, it would seem - who are perfectly reasonable in their own approach to diet and nutrition but have a fit when anyone dares suggest that excess sugar intake can have adverse health effects (more so than excess fiber intake, for example).
I began my participation in this thread in order, specifically, to respond to a blanket claim that sugar is not bad (as opposed to a more precise and correct claim that it isn't bad in all quantities).
You are frustrated that I am "preaching" about the evils of excess sugar intake, yet you have no trouble painting with a broad brush anyone who has a legitimate concern about the effects of added sugars and calling them all part of some "anti-sugar brigade." Your automatic assumption that anyone who raises concerns about sugars at all must be a militant anti-sugar warrior is the problem here, more than my stating facts about sugar that you don't really seem to disagree with.
As for concerns about sugar being raised on a calorie-counting site, one reason to do so is that excess sugar intake makes maintaining one's calorie goal difficult, not simply because sugary foods themselves contain calories but also because of cravings it tends to create.
Quoted the whole thing but want to specifically address the part I bolded.
I'd be pretty hard-pressed to figure out *anything* that a human can consume that wouldn't create health issues if they had too much of it. Even water. So this point that you are holding up as some sort of empirical evidence holds no water. Not even a reasonable amount.0 -
Anything consumed in excess can create health issues, yes. But not everything creates the same health issues, and the health issues created by the overconsumption of each item is not equally serious or equally reversible. What doesn't hold water is pretending like it is. Overconsumption of alcohol, for example, is not the same as overconsumption of water, and overconsumption of added sugars is not the same as eating one too many broccoli heads.snickerscharlie wrote: »You can take the name of any Gods or Deities you like, but your very reaction about "anti-sugar" brigade shows the problem I am trying to address. There are a lot of people here - yourself included, it would seem - who are perfectly reasonable in their own approach to diet and nutrition but have a fit when anyone dares suggest that excess sugar intake can have adverse health effects (more so than excess fiber intake, for example).
I began my participation in this thread in order, specifically, to respond to a blanket claim that sugar is not bad (as opposed to a more precise and correct claim that it isn't bad in all quantities).
You are frustrated that I am "preaching" about the evils of excess sugar intake, yet you have no trouble painting with a broad brush anyone who has a legitimate concern about the effects of added sugars and calling them all part of some "anti-sugar brigade." Your automatic assumption that anyone who raises concerns about sugars at all must be a militant anti-sugar warrior is the problem here, more than my stating facts about sugar that you don't really seem to disagree with.
As for concerns about sugar being raised on a calorie-counting site, one reason to do so is that excess sugar intake makes maintaining one's calorie goal difficult, not simply because sugary foods themselves contain calories but also because of cravings it tends to create.
Quoted the whole thing but want to specifically address the part I bolded.
I'd be pretty hard-pressed to figure out *anything* that a human can consume that wouldn't create health issues if they had too much of it. Even water. So this point that you are holding up as some sort of empirical evidence holds no water. Not even a reasonable amount.
So, what you're saying is that eating one extra cookie is worse than eating one extra broccoli head? Why?0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Well, they raise blood sugar because they have added sugar... I mean you can't get sugar from no sugar, right? And consistently (and artificially) elevated blood sugar levels are a risk factor for diabetes for those who currently do not have the disease.
Blood glucose arises from any digestible carbohydrate not just sugar let alone "added" or "refined" sugar. Your liver also makes it - one aspect of diabetes is overproduction internally, you don't get a high fasting blood sugar from what you ate.
Adding to that, yes you can get sugar from no sugar. Through a process called gluconeogenesis. @deaniac83
I see. And I assume it is your contention that it is glocogenesis that results in blood sugar spikes from sugary drinks the ADA advises we avoid to PREVENT diabetes?0 -
You ate a pound of cauliflower ?mamapeach910 wrote: »Yup. I routinely eat about that at times.
No gas either.
It was roasted with smoked paprika and utterly delicious. I was having a hungry day.
I actually wish I could. Unfortunately, cauliflower and broccoli both digest very slowly and quantities like that make my hiatal hernia act up. Last time was a half pound of steamed broccoli because I was hungry and I was rewarded with 2 hours of agony until the stomach slid back down where it belongs.
I can easily eat about 300 grams/10 oz of either or both in a day, but generally in two servings. Don't think I've ever hit a lb (so my sugar limits are safe, halleluah!) . ;-)
I think cruciferous veggies give lots of people issues, especially in large amounts, though. I have always felt lucky they don't me, since they are basically my favorites.0 -
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mamapeach910 wrote: »You ate a pound of cauliflower ?mamapeach910 wrote: »Yup. I routinely eat about that at times.
No gas either.
It was roasted with smoked paprika and utterly delicious. I was having a hungry day.
I actually wish I could. Unfortunately, cauliflower and broccoli both digest very slowly and quantities like that make my hiatal hernia act up. Last time was a half pound of steamed broccoli because I was hungry and I was rewarded with 2 hours of agony until the stomach slid back down where it belongs.
Oh, that does sound painful. You poor thing!
An unfortunate consequence of 1) Genetics (my Dad had one too), 2) Age, and 3) being overweight, especially apple shaped (which is going down significantly with 111 lb gone and only forty more to go)
I stepped away from this thread since last evening so I could remain the calm, rational person you all know and (maybe?) love. What I still don't get is 1) why so many still equate the symptoms with the cause, and 2) why the anti-sugar advocates assume that everyone is advocating eating sugar willy-nilly. You don't HAVE to eat ice cream or a big-brand candy bar, but you CAN unless you have a medical condition that requires you to stay away. Even those WITH medical conditions have a large variance in how they should eat. I am T2Dm and have reduced my total carbs to a maximum of 180 g per my diabetic educator's orders (comes out to 35% of a 2000 calorie diet, which is my TDEE- 500 calories). She has also said that there is no reason for me to track sugars, total carbs is the important number. I reduced my a1c to normal and got off the meds within 10 months of diagnosis by doing that. Within that 180 g is fruit, lots of veggies, bread (I prefer whole grain and yes, there is sugar in it), dairy, and occasional higher carb things like beer, donuts, cookies, chocolate, sugar in my tea, and last night's cake (yummy). I even ate a Kit-Kat a couple of weeks ago. No, I don't drink sugary drinks because I actually prefer the taste of diet sodas over regular. We are not advocating eating tons of sugar. We are saying that it is OK to eat some, where it fits in your preferred or doctor prescribed way of eating.
Nice post. I was hoping you'd weigh back in, although I understand stepping away (I should).0 -
Yes, that is exactly how it works. You cannot say "my side of the debate doesn't have to be specific but the other side does." If asserting sugar is bad requires defining parameters in which it is so - and I tend to agree that it does so require - asserting it isn't also requires defining parameters for which it isn't so. Otherwise, both are imprecise, inaccurate statements.DeguelloTex wrote: »
No. That's not how it works. Saying that sugar isn't bad doesn't lack precision or correctness. If you want to assert that sugar is bad, you need to define precisely and correctly the parameters in which it is so. If X amount of sugar is bad, it's the X amount, rather than something inherent in the sugar. What's the X amount, then, in your view?And the specific person I responded to first made a blanket statement that sugar is not bad (again, as opposed to a precise and correct statement that it isn't bad in all quantities.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »You ate a pound of cauliflower ?mamapeach910 wrote: »Yup. I routinely eat about that at times.
No gas either.
It was roasted with smoked paprika and utterly delicious. I was having a hungry day.
I actually wish I could. Unfortunately, cauliflower and broccoli both digest very slowly and quantities like that make my hiatal hernia act up. Last time was a half pound of steamed broccoli because I was hungry and I was rewarded with 2 hours of agony until the stomach slid back down where it belongs.
Oh, that does sound painful. You poor thing!
An unfortunate consequence of 1) Genetics (my Dad had one too), 2) Age, and 3) being overweight, especially apple shaped (which is going down significantly with 111 lb gone and only forty more to go)
I stepped away from this thread since last evening so I could remain the calm, rational person you all know and (maybe?) love. What I still don't get is 1) why so many still equate the symptoms with the cause, and 2) why the anti-sugar advocates assume that everyone is advocating eating sugar willy-nilly. You don't HAVE to eat ice cream or a big-brand candy bar, but you CAN unless you have a medical condition that requires you to stay away. Even those WITH medical conditions have a large variance in how they should eat. I am T2Dm and have reduced my total carbs to a maximum of 180 g per my diabetic educator's orders (comes out to 35% of a 2000 calorie diet, which is my TDEE- 500 calories). She has also said that there is no reason for me to track sugars, total carbs is the important number. I reduced my a1c to normal and got off the meds within 10 months of diagnosis by doing that. Within that 180 g is fruit, lots of veggies, bread (I prefer whole grain and yes, there is sugar in it), dairy, and occasional higher carb things like beer, donuts, cookies, chocolate, sugar in my tea, and last night's cake (yummy). I even ate a Kit-Kat a couple of weeks ago. No, I don't drink sugary drinks because I actually prefer the taste of diet sodas over regular. We are not advocating eating tons of sugar. We are saying that it is OK to eat some, where it fits in your preferred or doctor prescribed way of eating.
I just love when you and jgnatca come into threads and get told by the anti sugar people that you're wrong about diabetes.
Cracks me up.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »You are ignoring the context of this thread and what people actually said to make up a problem that you are then pretending to address.
I can hardly be making up something I quoted from someone else. The context is that a sudden knee-jerk reaction to comments saying sugars in processed foods are a concern did occur, and as such, members may respond to it. You are the one ignoring that context.Absolutely no one has a problem with the idea that excess sugar intake can have negative health effects (including, in large part that it often results in excess calories or nutritionally deficient diets--the WHO reasoning that many of us have repeatedly agreed with).
"Absolutely no one..." again, making blanket, broad statements and pretending that's not a problem. You didn't even bother to say "absolutely no one in this thread" or any other qualifier. Precision matters.As I said above, the debate is over what "excess" is,
Just because you said it does not mean everyone else has to follow those parameters of the "debate".Often it is suggested that ANY added sugar is bad (and here we have someone claiming that plus that two pieces of fruit are too much) and that's what we are arguing against.
Then you really shouldn't be arguing against me, since that is not something I have ever said. Yet what I say seems to be bugging you for some odd reason.Again, you are intentionally ignoring context. Everything is bad in excess--saying something isn't bad doesn't mean "go insane with it." Among other things, everyone says "within your calories and a nutritionally balanced diet" which makes it basically impossible to be extreme or eat huge amounts of sugar regularly (unless you are an endurance athlete and in pretty good shape/a bigger person, I suppose). The specific person we were talking to here was looking at a limit of 24 grams for ALL sugar! This is why you are being grouped with those who are anti all sugar--suggesting this is at all a thread about excess consumption raises questions about why you think that, as two pieces of fruit or the other things that have been recommended here are NOT excess, IMO (and I told you what I'd consider excess and not upthread).
And the specific person I responded to first made a blanket statement that sugar is not bad (again, as opposed to a precise and correct statement that it isn't bad in all quantities. Further, if one is going to say to stay "within your calories with a nutritionally balanced diet", then one needs to be receptive to arguments about things that can make it difficult to do so, and added sugars in high quantities often can (independent of their calorie contents alone). That is context you are ignoring - intentionally or not I do not know, since unlike you I cannot read minds.There are NO indications that this is relevant to OP's post
It isn't. It's relevant to other posts in this thread. If you are accusing me of not directly addressing the OP's question in many of my posts here, I stand guilty. But discussion threads have a tendency to go beyond the OP's defined parameters, and this thread is far from the only example, AND it had thus gone before I began my participation in it. If it is your contention that every post responding to another post unrelated to OP's question is out of bounds, aren't you doing the same thing by responding to my posts that you say aren't relevant to the OP's question?
You can tend to think anything you like, but just because "many people" don't experience cravings just because they eat foods high in added sugars doesn't mean others don't also. Just as the fact that most people who drink alcohol will not become alcoholics and have health issues associated with alcohol consumption doesn't mean that alcohol isn't a bigger risk factor to health than anything else we consume (water, for example), that many who eat sugary stuff won't have adverse effects doesn't mean that it cannot be a risk factor for metabolic disease. You say people are not for excess consumption, yet, posts that express concern about excess sugar consumption are suddenly labeled with extremism, including by yourself. And I didn't "bring it out of the blue" - that debate had been going on in this thread for some time before I arrived in it.and many, many people don't experience cravings just because they eat food with sugar. Indeed, I tend to think that's a psychological reaction basically encouraged by labeling sugar as a whole "bad." Thus, bringing it in out of the blue as a reason to avoid sugar and to claim that eating any sugar makes meeting a calorie goal difficult--when OP was specifically asking the common question about whether sugar mattered IF you, among other things, were meeting that goal, and when everyone had said that IF you are meeting your goal it's not a problem--supports the conclusion that you ARE part of the more extreme anti sugar sorts. Clearly if someone tries and cannot meet their limit then they should figure out what's going on and look at whether there's some reason they are overeating despite knowing what they should eat.
Half of this does not make any sense. If you are referring to me making a blanket statement that "sugar is not bad," you are absolutely wrong and you obviously did not read what I posted (what a surprise).
You are projecting your issues with sugar onto the rest of us in this thread. No, sugar is not bad in and of itself - excess sugar is bad. The same can be said for excess calories, excess alcohol, excess television, excess exercise, excess oxygen, etc.
If you experience cravings from eating sugary foods that taste yummy, then by all means, don't eat them. Although I think it would be hard to never eat a piece of cake again in your life, but whatever. You need to understand that not everyone has this issue, though, and that eating sugary foods even above the arbitrary and all-inclusive number that MFP gives us is not going to do us any harm in the context of a balanced diet and active lifestyle.0
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