CI/CO vs Clean Eating
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There are, I'd bet my last tomato, swaths of people in the US who don't eat veg or fruit at all.
Is it absurd? Yes. Is it reality? Still yes.0 -
That bar chart above shows why "cut carbs" is, for people living in SAD, really solid advice. If all anyone eating SAD did was cut consumption of refined grains and added sugars to recommended levels, the caloric surplus would be gone, and they'd be in deficit.
Agreed. Cut to recommended levels does not = cut out entirely and tell everyone people cannot healthfully eat any such foods, however.
Also, and I know this is my pet issue, we don't know that people are eating the SAD. Most of the people involved in this discussion are not currently eating the SAD (and I never ate anything like the chart above, even though I managed to eat in a way that led to weight gain, although part of that was being overly sedentary). Therefore, in a discussion about whether they need to cut (or cut out) added sugar and refined grains to be healthy, it really doesn't matter what the SAD is.
I would never recommend the SAD if asked what a health-promoting diet would look like, but I still think there's a decent amount of flexibility in what one would look like (and what the macros will be).0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »One significant factor for me is all the people asking for "clean eating recipes". I mean, WTH? I have about 800 cookbooks, and they are all based on whole foods. Who thinks you need special "clean eating" cookbooks unless you have some bizarre, irrational, and rude idea about others, like that they include giant amounts of sugar or canned goods or fast food or whatever in their savory cooking. Or perhaps that they are just idiots and have no idea about cooking at all. I mean, I didn't really cook regularly until I was 30, but I didn't assume there was some "clean eating" cooking and "dirty eating" cooking. This really offends me.
[snipped for brevity]
Ah, I guess you never had the pleasure of reading my first crock pot cookbook, which was just full of recipes that called for cans of cream soup, packages of soup mix and tater tots.
Also, the 2012 Better Homes and Gardens New Cook Book looks to be stuffed with convenience food ingredients.0 -
There are, I'd bet my last tomato, swaths of people in the US who don't eat veg or fruit at all.
Is it absurd? Yes. Is it reality? Still yes.
But I don't think I ever claimed otherwise, so I'm not sure what you are arguing with.
You can see on MFP that there are tons of people who don't eat fruits and veggies (and apparently are open to being convinced that fruit is dangerous, because sugar). One of the reasons I usually give for disliking the "clean" approach is that cutting out "unclean" foods doesn't really address the key issues, which IMO are usually: (1) eat fewer calories, (2) eat enough protein (consider increasing protein for satiety reasons also), (3) eat more vegetables and other less processed plant-based foods. Instead it places all the focus on demonizing and avoiding "bad" foods and not really getting the person to think through what a good diet would be and how they could take some simple steps (often) to cut excess calories and improve their own. I think that sets you up to feel deprived and then "fall off the wagon" and then feel like you blew it so might as well go nuts/give up.
What I have argued is that NO ONE is so ignorant that they don't know eating veggies is considered healthy and is a good thing to do, that a good diet is supposed to contain veggies for micronutrients, etc. What seems to be the case is that some people don't care, since they've decided they hate veggies. You will not find a post from me saying that not eating veggies is a good plan--I usually say that for me what works is trying to eat veggies with every meal, usually multiple servings.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I think is judging others (among other things) are the comments that interpret "eat what you like in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet" or "you don't have to cut out sweets if you don't want to" as "so you say a diet of ONLY McD's and donuts is a good thing!" It's assuming--really weirdly--that if someone doesn't endeavor to eat 100% clean that that person doesn't care about nutrition at all and is eating in bizarre ways that (IME) almost no one really eats.
That I don't see any benefit to claiming (falsely) that I don't eat "processed" foods or making an effort to never ever eat "bad" foods or even to calling foods "bad" and "good" doesn't mean that I don't care about nutrition or eat a pretty decent diet (at least according to my own standards). I think it's ridiculous to suggest that any of us are eating mostly donuts or the various similar claims that get made.
would a diet of McDonalds be bad if it was grilled chicken, salads, and yogurts????
Just saying that menu choice is going to dictate how good or bad McDonalds is
Oh, sure. I think those claims are meant to include burger, fries, and Coke, though. ;-)
Yup
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lemurcat12 wrote: »What I think is judging others (among other things) are the comments that interpret "eat what you like in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet" or "you don't have to cut out sweets if you don't want to" as "so you say a diet of ONLY McD's and donuts is a good thing!" It's assuming--really weirdly--that if someone doesn't endeavor to eat 100% clean that that person doesn't care about nutrition at all and is eating in bizarre ways that (IME) almost no one really eats.
That I don't see any benefit to claiming (falsely) that I don't eat "processed" foods or making an effort to never ever eat "bad" foods or even to calling foods "bad" and "good" doesn't mean that I don't care about nutrition or eat a pretty decent diet (at least according to my own standards). I think it's ridiculous to suggest that any of us are eating mostly donuts or the various similar claims that get made.
would a diet of McDonalds be bad if it was grilled chicken, salads, and yogurts????
Just saying that menu choice is going to dictate how good or bad McDonalds is
McNuggets are an almost completely even distribution of macros. This girl claims she only ate McNuggets, and nothing else, for 15 years before finally developing health problems. True superfood.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »One significant factor for me is all the people asking for "clean eating recipes". I mean, WTH? I have about 800 cookbooks, and they are all based on whole foods. Who thinks you need special "clean eating" cookbooks unless you have some bizarre, irrational, and rude idea about others, like that they include giant amounts of sugar or canned goods or fast food or whatever in their savory cooking. Or perhaps that they are just idiots and have no idea about cooking at all. I mean, I didn't really cook regularly until I was 30, but I didn't assume there was some "clean eating" cooking and "dirty eating" cooking. This really offends me.
[snipped for brevity]
Ah, I guess you never had the pleasure of reading my first crock pot cookbook, which was just full of recipes that called for cans of cream soup, packages of soup mix and tater tots.
Also, the 2012 Better Homes and Gardens New Cook Book looks to be stuffed with convenience food ingredients.
I don't know why people freak out over these things. Nothing at all wrong with MSG - glutamates are in a ton of natural foods and the research demonizing MSG has all been debunked. Modified food starch? Lots of people use corn starch to thicken up soups, etc. Of course the canned soup is going to have vegetable oil in it instead of cream because hey, it's kind of hard to can cream.
You're all like "oh no, I totally don't judge people for their food choices" when in reality, your post that I quoted is chock full of judgment.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »What I think is judging others (among other things) are the comments that interpret "eat what you like in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet" or "you don't have to cut out sweets if you don't want to" as "so you say a diet of ONLY McD's and donuts is a good thing!" It's assuming--really weirdly--that if someone doesn't endeavor to eat 100% clean that that person doesn't care about nutrition at all and is eating in bizarre ways that (IME) almost no one really eats.
That I don't see any benefit to claiming (falsely) that I don't eat "processed" foods or making an effort to never ever eat "bad" foods or even to calling foods "bad" and "good" doesn't mean that I don't care about nutrition or eat a pretty decent diet (at least according to my own standards). I think it's ridiculous to suggest that any of us are eating mostly donuts or the various similar claims that get made.
would a diet of McDonalds be bad if it was grilled chicken, salads, and yogurts????
Just saying that menu choice is going to dictate how good or bad McDonalds is
McNuggets are an almost completely even distribution of macros. This girl claims she only ate McNuggets, and nothing else, for 15 years before finally developing health problems. True superfood.
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here?
Obviously a varied diet is required to meet micronutrient needs. No one on these boards argues eating only mcnuggets, or anything else by itself. This is repeated here on a daily basis but people still come on here saying that IIFYM=only doughnuts or some other BS strawman argument.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Also, the 2012 Better Homes and Gardens New Cook Book looks to be stuffed with convenience food ingredients.
This does not mean that most cookbooks are or that it's some challenge to find cookbooks that are not, including some of the most mainstream ones, like the Bittman I like to recommend. (Also try epicurious.)
One way to do it: go to bookstore, open cookbook, read ingredients.
Or be a fool who thinks there are special "clean eating" recipes and the rest of us are dumping cream of mushroom soup on our steak* or loads of sugar on our salmon. Because that's how us non-clean eaters roll.
(I should say that I don't actually think there's anything wrong with using ingredients like canned tomatoes or beans or dried pasta and the like. Or even eating canned soups, for that matter. It's just this idea that normal cooking doesn't involve whole foods that seems bizarre to me.)
*As an aside: ugh, totally apart from any "clean eating" thing I HATE cream of mushroom soup and thought that ended with the '70s or early '80s, as people were always putting it in various horrible casserole things that plagued my childhood. These weren't everyday foods, though, but special occasion foods.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »What I think is judging others (among other things) are the comments that interpret "eat what you like in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet" or "you don't have to cut out sweets if you don't want to" as "so you say a diet of ONLY McD's and donuts is a good thing!" It's assuming--really weirdly--that if someone doesn't endeavor to eat 100% clean that that person doesn't care about nutrition at all and is eating in bizarre ways that (IME) almost no one really eats.
That I don't see any benefit to claiming (falsely) that I don't eat "processed" foods or making an effort to never ever eat "bad" foods or even to calling foods "bad" and "good" doesn't mean that I don't care about nutrition or eat a pretty decent diet (at least according to my own standards). I think it's ridiculous to suggest that any of us are eating mostly donuts or the various similar claims that get made.
would a diet of McDonalds be bad if it was grilled chicken, salads, and yogurts????
Just saying that menu choice is going to dictate how good or bad McDonalds is
McNuggets are an almost completely even distribution of macros. This girl claims she only ate McNuggets, and nothing else, for 15 years before finally developing health problems. True superfood.
LOL the newbies sometimes in these forums.
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »One significant factor for me is all the people asking for "clean eating recipes". I mean, WTH? I have about 800 cookbooks, and they are all based on whole foods. Who thinks you need special "clean eating" cookbooks unless you have some bizarre, irrational, and rude idea about others, like that they include giant amounts of sugar or canned goods or fast food or whatever in their savory cooking. Or perhaps that they are just idiots and have no idea about cooking at all. I mean, I didn't really cook regularly until I was 30, but I didn't assume there was some "clean eating" cooking and "dirty eating" cooking. This really offends me.
[snipped for brevity]
Ah, I guess you never had the pleasure of reading my first crock pot cookbook, which was just full of recipes that called for cans of cream soup, packages of soup mix and tater tots.
Also, the 2012 Better Homes and Gardens New Cook Book looks to be stuffed with convenience food ingredients.
[deleted snarky gif]
I don't know why people freak out over these things. Nothing at all wrong with MSG - glutamates are in a ton of natural foods and the research demonizing MSG has all been debunked. Modified food starch? Lots of people use corn starch to thicken up soups, etc. Of course the canned soup is going to have vegetable oil in it instead of cream because hey, it's kind of hard to can cream.
You're all like "oh no, I totally don't judge people for their food choices" when in reality, your post that I quoted is chock full of judgment.
"You are a stupid idiot for eating canned soup" would be judging people, and is something I have never said.
"...my first crock pot cookbook, which was just full of recipes that called for cans of cream soup, packages of soup mix and tater tots" is not judging people for their food choices.
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Oh geez! This subject always elicits a ton of replies. I thought this was the same discussion from a month ago until I saw the date.
The definition of clean eating varies from person to person. If you are progressing the way you want and your health is fine, then that is the plan for you. Don't think you are doing things wrong based on someone else.
I have to mix things up or I will go crazy so I always make room for an indulgence but still stay under my calorie goal. I could eat unhealthy food and stay under my calorie goal but it would hinder my progress. It's all psychological and the more bad foods I eat the more I crave them. Also I tried the method of eating whatever and just working out a lot but it only made me want to eat more and it taught me no discipline. And eating well makes me feel soooo good.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I think is judging others (among other things) are the comments that interpret "eat what you like in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet" or "you don't have to cut out sweets if you don't want to" as "so you say a diet of ONLY McD's and donuts is a good thing!" It's assuming--really weirdly--that if someone doesn't endeavor to eat 100% clean that that person doesn't care about nutrition at all and is eating in bizarre ways that (IME) almost no one really eats.
That I don't see any benefit to claiming (falsely) that I don't eat "processed" foods or making an effort to never ever eat "bad" foods or even to calling foods "bad" and "good" doesn't mean that I don't care about nutrition or eat a pretty decent diet (at least according to my own standards). I think it's ridiculous to suggest that any of us are eating mostly donuts or the various similar claims that get made.
would a diet of McDonalds be bad if it was grilled chicken, salads, and yogurts????
Just saying that menu choice is going to dictate how good or bad McDonalds is
Oh, sure. I think those claims are meant to include burger, fries, and Coke, though. ;-)
agree...
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kshama2001 wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »One significant factor for me is all the people asking for "clean eating recipes". I mean, WTH? I have about 800 cookbooks, and they are all based on whole foods. Who thinks you need special "clean eating" cookbooks unless you have some bizarre, irrational, and rude idea about others, like that they include giant amounts of sugar or canned goods or fast food or whatever in their savory cooking. Or perhaps that they are just idiots and have no idea about cooking at all. I mean, I didn't really cook regularly until I was 30, but I didn't assume there was some "clean eating" cooking and "dirty eating" cooking. This really offends me.
[snipped for brevity]
Ah, I guess you never had the pleasure of reading my first crock pot cookbook, which was just full of recipes that called for cans of cream soup, packages of soup mix and tater tots.
Also, the 2012 Better Homes and Gardens New Cook Book looks to be stuffed with convenience food ingredients.
[deleted snarky gif]
I don't know why people freak out over these things. Nothing at all wrong with MSG - glutamates are in a ton of natural foods and the research demonizing MSG has all been debunked. Modified food starch? Lots of people use corn starch to thicken up soups, etc. Of course the canned soup is going to have vegetable oil in it instead of cream because hey, it's kind of hard to can cream.
You're all like "oh no, I totally don't judge people for their food choices" when in reality, your post that I quoted is chock full of judgment.
"You are a stupid idiot for eating canned soup" would be judging people, and is something I have never said.
"...my first crock pot cookbook, which was just full of recipes that called for cans of cream soup, packages of soup mix and tater tots" is not judging people for their food choices.
No, you can sit atop a high horse and judge someone without calling someone names. I live in the South, where we all passive(ly?)-agressively judge each other every day. You might say that I'm an expert. Bless your heart. (ha ha)
Implying that there is something "wrong" with convenience foods in the first place is a bit judgey. What's wrong with tater tots? What if I eat tater tots alongside my grassfed hamburger with artisan cheese and arugula grown in my garden? The label of the Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup with the big fat circles over the scary-sounding ingredients is just a tad judgey. It assumes that I'm uneducated and that I'm going to get scared because I don't know what those words mean. I'm not a huge fan of the stuff myself, but I'm not going to sit here and imply that someone's health is going to suffer because they use condensed soup or a dried soup mix sometimes in their cooking. If that was all that someone ate, then that would be a problem. However, if someone uses those convenience foods in their cooking and lives an active lifestyle and eats lots of fruits and veggies, then they are not less healthy than someone who doesn't use them.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »One significant factor for me is all the people asking for "clean eating recipes". I mean, WTH? I have about 800 cookbooks, and they are all based on whole foods. Who thinks you need special "clean eating" cookbooks unless you have some bizarre, irrational, and rude idea about others, like that they include giant amounts of sugar or canned goods or fast food or whatever in their savory cooking. Or perhaps that they are just idiots and have no idea about cooking at all. I mean, I didn't really cook regularly until I was 30, but I didn't assume there was some "clean eating" cooking and "dirty eating" cooking. This really offends me.
[snipped for brevity]
Ah, I guess you never had the pleasure of reading my first crock pot cookbook, which was just full of recipes that called for cans of cream soup, packages of soup mix and tater tots.
Also, the 2012 Better Homes and Gardens New Cook Book looks to be stuffed with convenience food ingredients.
so what?
can you list all the ingredients that are in your freshly grown strawberries?0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I think is judging others (among other things) are the comments that interpret "eat what you like in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet" or "you don't have to cut out sweets if you don't want to" as "so you say a diet of ONLY McD's and donuts is a good thing!" It's assuming--really weirdly--that if someone doesn't endeavor to eat 100% clean that that person doesn't care about nutrition at all and is eating in bizarre ways that (IME) almost no one really eats.
That I don't see any benefit to claiming (falsely) that I don't eat "processed" foods or making an effort to never ever eat "bad" foods or even to calling foods "bad" and "good" doesn't mean that I don't care about nutrition or eat a pretty decent diet (at least according to my own standards). I think it's ridiculous to suggest that any of us are eating mostly donuts or the various similar claims that get made.
would a diet of McDonalds be bad if it was grilled chicken, salads, and yogurts????
Just saying that menu choice is going to dictate how good or bad McDonalds is
McNuggets are an almost completely even distribution of macros. This girl claims she only ate McNuggets, and nothing else, for 15 years before finally developing health problems. True superfood.
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here?
Obviously a varied diet is required to meet micronutrient needs. No one on these boards argues eating only mcnuggets, or anything else by itself. This is repeated here on a daily basis but people still come on here saying that IIFYM=only doughnuts or some other BS strawman argument.
I am just amazed that someone could live so long on a single food. I would think somebody doing this would run into serious issues from vitamin deficiencies within a few months, but I guess not.0 -
Terpnista84 wrote: »Oh geez! This subject always elicits a ton of replies. I thought this was the same discussion from a month ago until I saw the date.
The definition of clean eating varies from person to person. If you are progressing the way you want and your health is fine, then that is the plan for you. Don't think you are doing things wrong based on someone else.
I have to mix things up or I will go crazy so I always make room for an indulgence but still stay under my calorie goal. I could eat unhealthy food and stay under my calorie goal but it would hinder my progress. It's all psychological and the more bad foods I eat the more I crave them. Also I tried the method of eating whatever and just working out a lot but it only made me want to eat more and it taught me no discipline. And eating well makes me feel soooo good.
care to define some of these unhealthy foods, and why they are unhealthy?0 -
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »One significant factor for me is all the people asking for "clean eating recipes". I mean, WTH? I have about 800 cookbooks, and they are all based on whole foods. Who thinks you need special "clean eating" cookbooks unless you have some bizarre, irrational, and rude idea about others, like that they include giant amounts of sugar or canned goods or fast food or whatever in their savory cooking. Or perhaps that they are just idiots and have no idea about cooking at all. I mean, I didn't really cook regularly until I was 30, but I didn't assume there was some "clean eating" cooking and "dirty eating" cooking. This really offends me.
[snipped for brevity]
Ah, I guess you never had the pleasure of reading my first crock pot cookbook, which was just full of recipes that called for cans of cream soup, packages of soup mix and tater tots.
Also, the 2012 Better Homes and Gardens New Cook Book looks to be stuffed with convenience food ingredients.
[deleted snarky gif]
I don't know why people freak out over these things. Nothing at all wrong with MSG - glutamates are in a ton of natural foods and the research demonizing MSG has all been debunked. Modified food starch? Lots of people use corn starch to thicken up soups, etc. Of course the canned soup is going to have vegetable oil in it instead of cream because hey, it's kind of hard to can cream.
You're all like "oh no, I totally don't judge people for their food choices" when in reality, your post that I quoted is chock full of judgment.
"You are a stupid idiot for eating canned soup" would be judging people, and is something I have never said.
"...my first crock pot cookbook, which was just full of recipes that called for cans of cream soup, packages of soup mix and tater tots" is not judging people for their food choices.
No, you can sit atop a high horse and judge someone without calling someone names. I live in the South, where we all passive(ly?)-agressively judge each other every day. You might say that I'm an expert. Bless your heart. (ha ha)
Implying that there is something "wrong" with convenience foods in the first place is a bit judgey. What's wrong with tater tots? What if I eat tater tots alongside my grassfed hamburger with artisan cheese and arugula grown in my garden? The label of the Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup with the big fat circles over the scary-sounding ingredients is just a tad judgey. It assumes that I'm uneducated and that I'm going to get scared because I don't know what those words mean. I'm not a huge fan of the stuff myself, but I'm not going to sit here and imply that someone's health is going to suffer because they use condensed soup or a dried soup mix sometimes in their cooking. If that was all that someone ate, then that would be a problem. However, if someone uses those convenience foods in their cooking and lives an active lifestyle and eats lots of fruits and veggies, then they are not less healthy than someone who doesn't use them.
Ah, that's the problem. I'm from Massachusetts, and when I hear "Bless your heart" assume it means "Bless your heart" but my gf from Georgia uses it to mean F off.
People have been reading into my words when they should just take them at face value.
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Terpnista84 wrote: »Oh geez! This subject always elicits a ton of replies. I thought this was the same discussion from a month ago until I saw the date.
The definition of clean eating varies from person to person. If you are progressing the way you want and your health is fine, then that is the plan for you. Don't think you are doing things wrong based on someone else.
I have to mix things up or I will go crazy so I always make room for an indulgence but still stay under my calorie goal. I could eat unhealthy food and stay under my calorie goal but it would hinder my progress. It's all psychological and the more bad foods I eat the more I crave them. Also I tried the method of eating whatever and just working out a lot but it only made me want to eat more and it taught me no discipline. And eating well makes me feel soooo good.
care to define some of these unhealthy foods, and why they are unhealthy?
Any food that makes it difficult for me to meet my macro and calorie goals.
0
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