CI/CO vs Clean Eating
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Ah. Well, thank you everyone for your in depth responses.
To clear a few things up, as I was not clear enough and did not check up on this thread sooner:
By "clean" eating, I didn't intend to say other foods were bad. Perhaps this is a bad word on MFP, and if there is a better word for "whole foods not found in a can" let me know.
I just meant that I am attempting to be fit by lifting weights and doing cardio, but a lot of my foods are canned chilis, frozen meals, fake sugar treats, etc. I do eat clean when I am out -- veggies, salads, etc., but my schedule does not allot time for cooking often and I am not one to prepare foods for the week.
By CI/CO, I understand that literally that is how you lose weight. I meant the CI/CO "philosophy" -- which many in this thread understood as my meaning -- where you technically could eat twinkles all day and still lose weight.
So my real question, possible better phrased, was: would NOT eat "clean" (see above) affect how I look as far as lean muscle vs thin yet no muscle, etc. I got my answer from some of you -- that it depends on my macros.
Another reason why I ask this is because I have lost weight one time before, and I was doing all cardio and all processed foods. I was low on the scale but did not look great. And that was with the correct TDEE/CI/CO science, based on advice from these boards. I wondered if perhaps my diet had anything to do with my shape.
I also ask this because a lot of the people at my gym are into paleo, and do the same workouts I am doing currently. So I wondered if perhaps that is what I was missing.
Thank you everyone for your experiences and insight. And for those saying, "we have had this thread every five minutes on this board" and "I don't care what people eat" etc ... Why are you on the food and nutrition threads? I apologize for boring you -- I did my best to search for this answer prior to posted with no luck. If you know of a good blog or article that addresses this, please share.
I think the issue you had before was more related to doing all cardio, not your diet. Had you included some strength/resistance training, you would have retained more muscle mass and would have probably been happier with your body composition. This image is a good example:
That's not to say you shouldn't change your diet if that's what you want to do, I just don't think it was the cause of your concerns. If time is an issue, look into things like frozen veggies, that's only a few minutes in the microwave for those. I also do batch cooking, it really isn't that bad as far as time. Throw some chicken breasts in the crock pot or in the oven, and you can make all different meals from them.
dat strong recomp
what's the timeline there?0 -
Those pictures came up in other conversations. Turns out there was a *huge* amount of time between when they were taken. That doesn't make them bad, just wouldn't want people to get implausible expectations from them. :drinker:
I did some weights before, but now I am doing CrossFit. Definitely more lift intensive!0 -
slideaway1 wrote: »TrailBlazinMN wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »TrailBlazinMN wrote: »It all depends on how good you want to feel. I've eaten super clean foods (by my definition) and I feel awesome. Endless energy, no caffeine needed, feeling amazing, etc. People don't realize how good they can feel when they get rid of the foods that affect their body, mind, and attitude.
If you want, just experiment. For dinner, have a few slices of pizza and a big bowl of ice cream for dinner and see how you feel in the morning. Wait a few days and have the same foods you ate during the day when you had pizza and ice cream but instead of pizza and ice cream, eat a massive salad with your choice of protein (lean meat, beans, quinoa, etc) along with some tea and see how you feel the following morning.
Some people can get away with the whole "everything in moderation" when it comes to "junk food". Other people can't. Just like a former alcoholic can't just have a sip or a former cocaine addict can't just have one line.
So if someone eats mostly "clean" foods with some "dirty" treats thrown in here and there, then they will feel worse than someone who never has the treats?
Or are you thinking the ever-popular strawman theory that MFPers who lobby for IIFYM/flexible dieting eat nothing but doughnuts and Pop Tarts all day long with no regards to nutrition?
It's all about goals. Some people don't care too much about being and feeling the best they possibly can. They just want to lose weight. Will "dirty" treats really affect someone's performance and overall well-being? Who knows. They would have to experiment and find out.
On a personal level I agree with this. I physically feel different (usually the day after) between getting my Carb Source from something like a sweet potato (Complex Carb) and veg, to eating Pizza the night before. Some people might not be as sensitive to this though.
I wonder how much of that is placebo.0 -
LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »
Yet you (and others) still insist that eating "clean" somehow results in improved performance. So how much time do you think could I take off my 5K if I ate 400 calories of carrots before instead of 400 calories of twix bars?TrailBlazinMN wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »That's not what I said.
Also, if someone can't have just one bowl of ice cream or a couple of cookies, then their problem is with the ability to moderate their intake. That is something that they need to learn to do, and cutting those foods out completely forever is likely not going to teach them anything. Are we really expected to go the rest of our lives without eating another piece of birthday cake? Without eating out at a restaurant with friends or on a date? That's just not realistic.
I guarantee you that anyone (barring a medical reason that requires them to avoid any particular food/ingredient) who is healthy, active, and who eats mostly nutrient-dense foods is not going to have any negative effects from having something sweet or some "junk" food evrery now and then. You don't get extra credit for eating nothing but "clean" foods 100% of the time.
You are right. Some people do have that problem with moderation whether it's "dirty" food or a sip of beer. That piece of cake or that sip of beer can set off a chain reaction and people go spiraling downward. There is nothing wrong with eating cake for a lot of people but for other people, it can cause them to binge.
You are right that people don't get extra credit for eating 100% "clean" foods but some people realize, like I said before, one little treat turns into a bingefest. Maybe not you but there are people out there who have an eating disorder.
Bottom line is people should do what they want. Live and let live. There is nothing wrong with people who want to eat 100% clean (whether it's for a month, a year, or their whole life) and see how far they can take their body, mind, and performance. It's all a big experiment. I just go by my own experiments and testimonies of people who are open-minded and like to see how controllable variables (such as diet) can affect their recovery, heart rate at certain intensities, etc.
400 calories of carrots before a race sounds like it may cause a code brown.......0 -
sativaandspice wrote: »I don't know if this has been addressing lately, but I think one caveat of CICO is sodium. If you weigh daily like me, high sodium food can cause one to two pound weight gain that is a real downer. You won't go 10 pounds over weight, but it will add some weight, which counters the CICO thing.
I try to eat clean, but I also don't have any problem going out to eat as long as its within my macros. The worst thing that happens is for some reason when I eat mcdonalds or fries it's super hard to keep from continuing to eat. But I do my best and eat better when I slip.
Sodium doesn't counter anything about CICO. It seems that you may need a primer to understand nutrition and how your body weight can fluctuate up to 5 pounds in a day all based on water and glycogen. (Water plays a huge part of when carbo-loading as well of course). Sodium increases water retention, it doesn't make you gain fat.0 -
Clean eating threads.....I wish I could quit you....
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knock knock
open up the door
it's real0 -
Can I just say I think @Alyssa_Is_LosingIt rocks?0
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I think the issue you had before was more related to doing all cardio, not your diet. Had you included some strength/resistance training, you would have retained more muscle mass and would have probably been happier with your body composition. This image is a good example:
That's not to say you shouldn't change your diet if that's what you want to do, I just don't think it was the cause of your concerns. If time is an issue, look into things like frozen veggies, that's only a few minutes in the microwave for those. I also do batch cooking, it really isn't that bad as far as time. Throw some chicken breasts in the crock pot or in the oven, and you can make all different meals from them.
I agree with this. When I lost weight before I was happy enough, but never got to an ideal body shape for me and I was eating super "clean" (as I understand it) but doing only cardio.
This time I can fit into clothes that I wore before at 5-10 lbs lighter and the main difference is that I'm strength training. I am not at my ideal body comp yet, but I have confidence I can get there, and I think it will be strength training that does it.
That said, I do try to eat adequate protein (more than, normally) and lots of veggies in addition to my ice cream.0 -
Can I just say I think @Alyssa_Is_LosingIt rocks?
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You might say it's majoring in the minors, but I think that especially over time (months-years), micronutrients and trace minerals do matter for bone and muscle health. Balanced nutrition promotes healing after surgery, for example, and lacking micronutrients can for sure make a difference (e.g. Vit D, iron). I'm not about to dig up a bunch of stuff to work out the percentage difference wrt weight loss or body composition - I'm not sure it'd be a lot - but eating for health certainly can't hurt.
You can obviously strive to eat for health in a number of ways, but I think if you don't feel great eating prefab frozen dinners, and subjectively feel better eating whatever food you mean by "clean", that's legitimate. (Even if it is a placebo. People think of the placebo effect as a distraction from "true facts", when it can be put to good use. In the case of weight management, it could play a useful role in adherence. That said, I think some people do respond better to certain diets because of unknown variables, like subclinical issues that haven't been picked up (yet). )0 -
Clean eating may be beneficial if you have a specific health goal in mind (like a "cleanse" or to build lean muscle mass). Beyond that, it doesn't have anything to do with weight loss. Calories are not empty or full, nor good or bad. Calories are a unit of measurement. It's just energy your body uses. If you're eating at a deficit, you'll lose weight. So if you eat 1,400 calories in gummy bears every day, you'll lose weight; however, you'll feel like crap. Calories don't determine our health or how we feel. That's where micro and macro nutrients come into play.0
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The best thing that I can say from my personal experience only is that I prefer healthier eating because it helps me feel FULLER.
I could eat a massive chicken and brown rice stir fry for the same amount of calories as a Big Mac and a small fries. The stir fry will help me feel full all day and I can forget about food. If I eat the Big Mac and fries, I'll be hungry 40 minutes afterward, I'll be obsessing about eating more food, and left fighting a losing battle with my willpower all day.
That's the main reason why I am pretty much exclusively choosing healthier options. It helps me feel full, whilst consistently leaving me in a calorie deficit without having to "suffer through" hunger pangs or the like.
Just my two cents.0 -
Wow. I didn't see how heated this debate became before I posted the above!
I didn't intend on adding to any flame war. Truth is, I admire people who can eat whatever they want in moderation. It is something I still don't know how to do...
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What implausible expectation would someone get? If someone expects results like that to happen quickly, that has nothing to do with the pictures.Those pictures came up in other conversations. Turns out there was a *huge* amount of time between when they were taken. That doesn't make them bad, just wouldn't want people to get implausible expectations from them. :drinker:
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Ah. Well, thank you everyone for your in depth responses.
To clear a few things up, as I was not clear enough and did not check up on this thread sooner:
By "clean" eating, I didn't intend to say other foods were bad. Perhaps this is a bad word on MFP, and if there is a better word for "whole foods not found in a can" let me know.
I just meant that I am attempting to be fit by lifting weights and doing cardio, but a lot of my foods are canned chilis, frozen meals, fake sugar treats, etc. I do eat clean when I am out -- veggies, salads, etc., but my schedule does not allot time for cooking often and I am not one to prepare foods for the week.
By CI/CO, I understand that literally that is how you lose weight. I meant the CI/CO "philosophy" -- which many in this thread understood as my meaning -- where you technically could eat twinkles all day and still lose weight.
So my real question, possible better phrased, was: would NOT eat "clean" (see above) affect how I look as far as lean muscle vs thin yet no muscle, etc. I got my answer from some of you -- that it depends on my macros.
Another reason why I ask this is because I have lost weight one time before, and I was doing all cardio and all processed foods. I was low on the scale but did not look great. And that was with the correct TDEE/CI/CO science, based on advice from these boards. I wondered if perhaps my diet had anything to do with my shape.
I also ask this because a lot of the people at my gym are into paleo, and do the same workouts I am doing currently. So I wondered if perhaps that is what I was missing.
Thank you everyone for your experiences and insight. And for those saying, "we have had this thread every five minutes on this board" and "I don't care what people eat" etc ... Why are you on the food and nutrition threads? I apologize for boring you -- I did my best to search for this answer prior to posted with no luck. If you know of a good blog or article that addresses this, please share.
Late to the game, but I think the results you had before was because you were doing only cardio and not lifting and less to do with what you are eating. As someone mentioned earlier, eating "clean" may make it easier for some people to maintain a deficit because you can eat more volume of food, so you may feel satiated on fewer calories.
Paleo is not necessary, but it helps some stick to their deficit. And because you cut out carbs (which can be a large portion of people's diets) many people can use that to maintain a deficit without calorie counting, which they find easier. Others can gain weight on paleo if they still end up eating more foods than they need to maintain their current body weight.
ETA: And I see that @kgeyser beat me to the punch...0 -
IsaackGMOON wrote: »Thread is gonna go off in 3... 2... 1...
No, your weight would not suffer. Because losing weight and gaining boils down to calories in vs calories out. It doesn't come down to whether you eat 'clean'.- If you eat in a caloric deficit, you will lose weight
- If you eat in a caloric surplus, you will gain weight
I suppose to extend that answer -- what about body composition? Scale aside, would a clean CI/CO eater look fit and active while a non clean CI/CO eater look frumpy and heavier?
I know that every person is different, etc. ( eg, I am lactose intolerant and any dairy would make me appear frumpy!) but generally, are the affects of a cleaner eater obvious externally?
Nope. Body fat percentage has nothing at all to do with what types of food you eat, only how much.
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Can I just say I think @Alyssa_Is_LosingIt rocks?
LOL, you, too, are awesome, my dear!0 -
jennifer_417 wrote: »IsaackGMOON wrote: »Thread is gonna go off in 3... 2... 1...
No, your weight would not suffer. Because losing weight and gaining boils down to calories in vs calories out. It doesn't come down to whether you eat 'clean'.- If you eat in a caloric deficit, you will lose weight
- If you eat in a caloric surplus, you will gain weight
I suppose to extend that answer -- what about body composition? Scale aside, would a clean CI/CO eater look fit and active while a non clean CI/CO eater look frumpy and heavier?
I know that every person is different, etc. ( eg, I am lactose intolerant and any dairy would make me appear frumpy!) but generally, are the affects of a cleaner eater obvious externally?
Nope. Body fat percentage has nothing at all to do with what types of food you eat, only how much.
Assuming you get enough protein of course.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »
+++++++A0 -
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Most "non-religious" types know that the concept of clean eating as put out by the "fitness media" is a sham, and is only there to make you feel bad about yourself when you "cheat".
Despite this, there is little science backing up "clean eating" vs "non-clean" eating. There is no scientific definition of "clean eating", so there can be no definition of "dirty eating".
If anyone wants to argue that eating lots of fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and complex carbs is good for your, I will not argue. If these same people want to argue that such a diet contains more micro-nutrients, I will not argue. If these people want to argue that is increases satiety and is therefore easier to follow, I will not argue.
However, if these people propose that it is better for CICO, and do not caveat their assertions, or back it up with science, well then, it is the Internet and I will argue
As an interesting aside of "clean" vs "dirty" eating as a workout recovery mean, it turns out there is no difference in performance or glycogen recovery.0 -
If anyone wants to argue that eating lots of fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and complex carbs is good for your, I will not argue. If these same people want to argue that such a diet contains more micro-nutrients, I will not argue. If these people want to argue that is increases satiety and is therefore easier to follow, I will not argue.
These are my reasons, bolded being immediately relevant to me personally0 -
IN0
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If anyone wants to argue that eating lots of fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and complex carbs is good for your, I will not argue. If these same people want to argue that such a diet contains more micro-nutrients, I will not argue. If these people want to argue that is increases satiety and is therefore easier to follow, I will not argue.
However, if these people propose that it is better for CICO, and do not caveat their assertions, or back it up with science, well then, it is the Internet and I will argue :)recovery[/url].
This makes no sense to me.
If it's more nutritious and makes it easier to stick a caloric deficit because it provides more satiety, how can it not be "better for CICO"?
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TrailBlazinMN wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The answer is no, no they will not.
If someone eats healthily all day long, meets their macro- and micro-nutrient goals for the day, and lives an active and healthy lifestyle, a bowl of ice cream or a couple of cookies at the end of the day is going to have zero effect on health or performance.
@Alyssa_Is_LosingIt -I think it's pretty awesome you know how food affects every single person in this world. By the way, not everyone can just have one bowl of ice cream or a couple of cookies. There is reason why some people need to eat "super clean", just like alcoholics can't have a sip and drug users can't just have one hit/line/etc.slideaway1 wrote: »On a personal level I agree with this. I physically feel different (usually the day after) between getting my Carb Source from something like a sweet potato (Complex Carb) and veg, to eating Pizza the night before. Some people might not be as sensitive to this though.
This. I agree that some people might not be as sensitive to this but I think those people are far and few. On the other hand, I have realized the higher quality of food someone eats, the more their body rejects lower quality foods. It's like their body doesn't want to tolerate lower quality foods and only wants the good stuff.
Can you please stop comparing food addiction to alcohol addiction? Unless you know any people who become homeless from a food addiction?
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kshama2001 wrote: »I don't see why it would be controversial to suggest that everyone should learn moderation. Not only with food, but with everything.
Would you say this to alcoholics or people in 12 step programs for drugs or gambling?
what are the stats on the success rates of those programs?
I googled around for a bit but didn't find anything easily
if anyone has access to that info I'd be interested to know though
You will more likely not find stats on anonymous things like AA or OA. From someone who has been to AA and NA it does work from what I saw. I hated AA though. A bunch of horrors stories to stop people from drinking. Scared straight approach does not work for some.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I don't see why it would be controversial to suggest that everyone should learn moderation. Not only with food, but with everything.
Would you say this to alcoholics or people in 12 step programs for drugs or gambling?
what are the stats on the success rates of those programs?
I googled around for a bit but didn't find anything easily
if anyone has access to that info I'd be interested to know though
My point in bringing up 12 step programs was that the suggestion that people learn moderation for everything is irresponsible and unkind.
it's not really irresponsible and unkind if 12 step programs don't actually work
that's why I'm wondering just how effective they are
if they work then yes you are def right
This question of 12 step programs working depends on the individual.
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This discussion has been closed.
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