Losing Weight is NOT that simple..imo..
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Just thought I'd drop this in here, since it's an example of the kind of thing being debated here.
Can you spot the not helpful responses in this thread?0 -
Just thought I'd drop this in here, since it's an example of the kind of thing being debated here.
Can you spot the not helpful responses in this thread?
I cannot see a single unhelpful response in the 11 responses to that thread if I'm truly honest..although the very first response is wrong
Can you? I'd really like you to point out which ones you deem not helpful @ariamythe
And what does that say about the perceptions of the reader clouding their understanding and appreciation of what is going on in that thread
Black box theory of personal communications rules!0 -
klmnumbers wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Uhm... I just had a look over your thread because I couldn't believe that happened and that's not what happened in your thread.
I don't really want to get into an argument, but two people did, in fact, tell me to either eat nothing at all or to eat "real" dairy. One apologized, which I appreciated. But my point remains that I posted asking for suggestions for dairy substitutes. I did get good recommendations (rocking some almond breeze unsweetened in my coffee as we speak). But my point remains, for me, that is is frustrating to make a post and have people come in telling you to not do what you are asking for advice for at all.
I actually remember that thread, and it unfolded as you described. (You were the OP so maybe couldn't see it, but it was even funny, from a distance. Obviously though, people post because they have problems to solve, not because they hope to provide a space for absurdist humour.)
I think people are sometimes quite forceful in their comments because whatever approach they're advocating is the one they feel worked for them. Hard for new people to appreciate that, though.
And yeah, it is frustrating when people don't read the question. I think it's partly because lots of people are on their phones. I sometimes skim responses, myself
I do also think a few are to the point of being trolly or baiting about it. I find it tiresome and unhelpful when people veer away from the particular question and turn it into the same old debate (which usually sets up a false dichotomy, imo - very often, those offering concrete dietary suggestions are knowingly working under CICO, just offering the tactics that worked for them). I usually mention how I try to deal with satiety, because without addressing that, there's no way I could meet my target, and it's at least possible the poster is similar, so why not offer what worked for me? They can take or leave it if it doesn't make sense for them, but I'd feel I wasn't being helpful if I didn't mention it. Which I guess is what most people do, regardless of their approach.
The thing I think I find most annoying is the suggestion that attending to food choices to manage satiety is somehow a cheat, as though it's a failure of "willpower". Because I think "willpower" is beside the point - weight management is the goal, and I'm for whatever works. For some people what works IS looking at food quality.0 -
Just thought I'd drop this in here, since it's an example of the kind of thing being debated here.
Can you spot the not helpful responses in this thread?
I can't and I posted twice in that thread. I even provided a link of another very helpful thread that helps me stay on my journey.
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Just like every post that references IIFYM or flexible dieting. Because jumping in to tell people they can't live on 100% donuts and ice cream is reasonable acceptance of alternate approaches, right?accidentalpancake wrote: »blankiefinder wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »bennettinfinity wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »ogmomma2012 wrote: »professionalHobbyist wrote: »There are lots of condescending comments to new people on MFP.
The whole CICO is one very simple aspect of food
It ignores all of the other aspects of nutrition
I ate a crappy diet. Eating less of a crappy diet is not the best health option. That is why my dr sent me to a nutritionist.
I don't think many people want to just lose weight with no regard to learning how to eat a balanced diet.
Maybe some do, not sure why but that is their choice.
I'm glad I had worked with a nutritionist and trainer before getting to MFP.
The point is to understand the first step. Calorie restriction. That puts you on the road to rejecting large calorie loads (ONE cookie is 300 calories?! NOT worth it! *munches carrots*)
CICO isn't ABOUT -health-, it's just the science behind weight loss. When people ask about weight loss, that is the answer they get.
Actually, pretty much any question is answered with CICO, which is part of the problem.
Want advice on eating healthier diet? You'll get a ridiculous argument that food is food and CICO is all that matters.
Ask a question about a plateau? The answer is CICO and you must not be accurately tracking intake.
It'd be amusing if it weren't so actively unhelpful to those seeking assistance.
If you have better advice, we're all ears... pardon me if I don't hold my breath.
If you think that spouting off CICO as the final answer to either of the example questions in my post, there's no discussion worth having.
Some of us prefer to realize that nuance and personal circumstance play a large role in success. If someone wants to give low carb a try or reduce their sugar intake, who are you to demean that decision?
CICO isn't being denied, only the derisive and unhelpful way in which it is used to belittle any approach that adds other, more personal variables.
CICO includes low carb, or low sugar, or whatever other route people want to take to achieve a deficit.
Yet every post that references "clean eating" will eventually be closed/deleted because it devolves into a tired debate about how CICO is all that matters and foods are completely equal outside of individual dietary context. Doesn't seem very accepting of alternate approaches.
The difference is, the "clean eaters" often say you "should" eat that way and not doing so isn't "healthy," whereas someone with a more flexible-dieting approach says you can eat clean, but you don't have to.
Tell me, who's more likely do derail a thread with "no, you shouldn't eat that way"? "Don't have to" is almost always relevant. "Shouldn't" almost never is.
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I'm not talking about volume, I'm talking about nutritional information, including calories. Are you saying that manufacturers intentionally understate macros per serving?jennifer_417 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »Second, even if the labels can be that far off, they almost never are. And stuff like steaks will even out over time.
I never get why everyone ignores the fact that they can be off in both directions. People assume every inaccuracy is an underestimate. So unless there is some compelling reason to believe that a significant majority of food labels are all too low, you can expect the variations to even out in the long term.
Right, except I worked for a bottling company, and I know for a fact they intentinally pack more, because they have to have AT LEAST as much in the container as it says, or they will get in trouble. The opposite does not apply.
I'm saying that labels don't always skew such that you will systematically overeat over time if you weigh your servings and use the nutrition info on the label.
Yeah, there's probably more of Product X in the package than the package says, because the opposite is legally risky while giving more than expected typically isn't. That doesn't mean that the nutritional info per serving is systematically skewed in a single direction.
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FitFroglet wrote: »nvsmomketo wrote: »It does partially come down to manners. For example, if someone is in front of you do you just say "move" or "excuse me please"? If someone's weight loss is stalled (and half a dozen people haven't already replied with the same advice) do you say "CICO" or " Are you sure you are eating at a calorie deficit? Sometimes using a food scale can help you make sure you aren't accidentally eating more than you think."? I know which ones i would respond to better.
I'm not sure I've been reading the same forum as everyone else.
I don't see people respond "CICO" I see people ask:- Are you weighing your food?
- Are you logging everything you eat and drink?
- Are you eating back all of your exercise calories? (sometimes accompanied by "How are you measuring your burn?")
- How long have you been trying for? (sometimes accompanied by an explanation that weight-loss isn't linear)
- Is exercise new to you? (usually accompanied by an explanation that the body might store more water when you start exercising but that this will level out in the long run)
They try to work out what part of CICO isn't quite right for the person seeking help then guide them to a better way.
50% of the time the OP responds with "I measure everything! I'm doing everything right! How dare you suggest that I'm not!!!!!" People cannot help someone who refuses to listen.
I've found the forum to be a very useful place to lurk and it's taught me a lot.
In answer to the OP, weight-loss is incredibly straightforward and also one of the most difficult things you'll do.
I agree that "CICO" isn't a useful response in and of itself but what I tend to see is people helping the OP identify what part of CICO they're getting wrong (or indeed, "you appear to be doing it right, have patience, it will work out") which is incredibly useful.
I didn't make my thoughts clear enough. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to imply that all responders say CICO or something rude, but there is a minority of vocal people who will go on and on about CICO when the original post may not have even been asking about that - often WOE threads. A response to a question about vegetarianism might be met with a response of " Why? CICO is all you need." A question about how to cut added sugars from their diet might be answered with, "Why? CICO is all you need." Not always, or even most of the time but enough to be quite noticeable to newbies like me.
I am oversimplifying it there, but I do feel that a minority of responders tend to go on about that. It really only needs to be said once....for most people.
The majority of posts are usually helpful and polite.... well, threads about cutting sugars and carbs is often another story. People do seem to have really strong feelings about carb intake, and negative feelings about reducing them.
This thread might make some people think about how they respond; many posts from yesterday seemed more thoughtfully worded (to me). I think it is just a good idea to try to be thoughtful and kind in our responses. I need to work on it too. I have had a couple of threads where I started to get snarky when I was feeling belittled and ganged up on (and yes I realize that might not have been people's intent, but I sincerely doubt it for a select few). I'm to the point where if I find a post that has to do with low carb, I immediately refer them to another forum because I have usually correctly predicted the type of reception they will have on the MFP boards.... I realize that does not have to do with CICO but mentioned it because it still has to do with manners.
I realize very little will change from all of this, but the small change that I hope may come of this is that some people will think twice before hitting "post reply". I'll try to.
Best wishes.0 -
Just thought I'd drop this in here, since it's an example of the kind of thing being debated here.
Can you spot the not helpful responses in this thread?
I cannot see a single unhelpful response in the 11 responses to that thread if I'm truly honest..although the very first response is wrong
Can you?
And what does that say about the perceptions of the reader clouding their understanding and appreciation of what is going on in that thread
Black box theory of personal communications rules!
I'd agree that there were some helpful responses in there, but there were also several of the variety that are being discussed here.
Some indicated that she wasn't logging correctly or that she was eating too much, with no indication of either in the OP. While this is not necessarily wrong, there was no follow up or attempt to gather more information.
Some denied the idea of a "set point", which is fine as a personal belief, but is clearly worthy of addressing for the OP.0 -
Just thought I'd drop this in here, since it's an example of the kind of thing being debated here.
Can you spot the not helpful responses in this thread?
I cannot see a single unhelpful response in the 11 responses to that thread if I'm truly honest..although the very first response is wrong
Can you?
Yes, I see some that are completely unhelpful and terse: "You eat less" and "Eat less food," full-stop-end-of-post. Well no sugar, Sherlock. She clearly is aware, since she has lost weight in the past and works out regularly. She's come asking for experiences and advice in breaking out of a slump, and gets something that comes across as condescending and dismissive. There *are* some good responses in there, but also some that seem to be people going "JFC, why don't people listen, let me say it ONE MORE TIME ... "
There's two components to a successful communication. One of them is content; but the other is presentation (tone, style, etc.). IMO those responses fail on both counts.0 -
Since we're doing examples, here's a perfect one of a cooperative OP who may not have got advise on the WOE she wanted, but got the weight loss stalling help she needed:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10214226/military-diet/p1
And I'm starting to realize that when people say dozens of posters just respond with "CICO", they may not literally mean CICO is all that was said, but maybe just post after post referencing a caloric deficit, even though they were expecting or might have been interested in more. Maybe?0 -
accidentalpancake wrote: »Just thought I'd drop this in here, since it's an example of the kind of thing being debated here.
Can you spot the not helpful responses in this thread?
I cannot see a single unhelpful response in the 11 responses to that thread if I'm truly honest..although the very first response is wrong
Can you?
And what does that say about the perceptions of the reader clouding their understanding and appreciation of what is going on in that thread
Black box theory of personal communications rules!
I'd agree that there were some helpful responses in there, but there were also several of the variety that are being discussed here.
Some indicated that she wasn't logging correctly or that she was eating too much, with no indication of either in the OP. While this is not necessarily wrong, there was no follow up or attempt to gather more information.
Some denied the idea of a "set point", which is fine as a personal belief, but is clearly worthy of addressing for the OP.Just thought I'd drop this in here, since it's an example of the kind of thing being debated here.
Can you spot the not helpful responses in this thread?
I cannot see a single unhelpful response in the 11 responses to that thread if I'm truly honest..although the very first response is wrong
Can you?
Yes, I see some that are completely unhelpful and terse: "You eat less" and "Eat less food," full-stop-end-of-post. Well no sugar, Sherlock. She clearly is aware, since she has lost weight in the past and works out regularly. She's come asking for experiences and advice in breaking out of a slump, and gets something that comes across as condescending and dismissive. There *are* some good responses in there, but also some that seem to be people going "JFC, why don't people listen, let me say it ONE MORE TIME ... "
There's two components to a successful communication. One of them is content; but the other is presentation (tone, style, etc.). IMO those responses fail on both counts.
And this is the problem that we constantly battle with on here. There are clearly people who think that providing a clear,short answer is unhelpful. And there are those who don't
It was exactly those types of answers that made me think "what am I missing, it looks so easy" so I looked into it, without getting my knickers in a twist and found a way that worked for me
I ate fewer calories
I read research that debunked theories like set weight
I focused on my logging to make sure it was an accurate an estimate as it could be ...and I double checked against the reality of my body
The reason someone isn't losing weight is always down to the timeframe or the fact they are eating at the maintenance level...always, yes even with medical conditions...
Tone is in the recipients mind. Always.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...read all responses in the muppet voice of your choosing ..and stop feeling insulted by direct responses ..they are as helpful as the overly wordy touchy-feely can be to many0 -
Just thought I'd drop this in here, since it's an example of the kind of thing being debated here.
Can you spot the not helpful responses in this thread?
I cannot see a single unhelpful response in the 11 responses to that thread if I'm truly honest..although the very first response is wrong
Can you?
Yes, I see some that are completely unhelpful and terse: "You eat less" and "Eat less food," full-stop-end-of-post. Well no sugar, Sherlock. She clearly is aware, since she has lost weight in the past and works out regularly. She's come asking for experiences and advice in breaking out of a slump, and gets something that comes across as condescending and dismissive. There *are* some good responses in there, but also some that seem to be people going "JFC, why don't people listen, let me say it ONE MORE TIME ... "
There's two components to a successful communication. One of them is content; but the other is presentation (tone, style, etc.). IMO those responses fail on both counts.
What would be your take away, here? Basically if you don't have more than one sentence to share, don't bother posting?
For me, those comments all fell under the category of simple but not easy. If the OP wants more advise on how to eat less, she can ask in a follow up question. That'll at least show she's committed to responding to posts, providing follow up information and would be willing to take the advice before everyone each types up a dissertation
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Since we're doing examples, here's a perfect one of a cooperative OP who may not have got advise on the WOE she wanted, but got the weight loss stalling help she needed:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10214226/military-diet/p1
And I'm starting to realize that when people say dozens of posters just respond with "CICO", they may not literally mean CICO is all that was said, but maybe just post after post referencing a caloric deficit, even though they were expecting or might have been interested in more. Maybe?
I think perhaps you're right
I think people want the media-style / marketing lead industry standard of overly complicating a direct and easy response so it gives you something to buy into
Because really it must be more difficult...because if it isn't that means I'm not a victim, I'm to blame for my own unhappiness in my own body
I always knew why I was overweight...I ate too much and was chronically lazy ...I wanted an easy answer or a reason for it.
Took me 30 years to find that the easy answer for me was stop eating so much (but you can still have everything you enjoy) and move more
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I thought this post got like...deleted or something? crazy its still going0
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it wasn't going it was dead for a week.
But you brought it up again0
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