Losing Weight is NOT that simple..imo..
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MoiAussi93 wrote: »bennettinfinity wrote: »nvsmomketo wrote: »It does partially come down to manners. For example, if someone is in front of you do you just say "move" or "excuse me please"? If someone's weight loss is stalled (and half a dozen people haven't already replied with the same advice) do you say "CICO" or " Are you sure you are eating at a calorie deficit? Sometimes using a food scale can help you make sure you aren't accidentally eating more than you think."? I know which ones i would respond to better.
But if you're the one asking the question, you don't get to direct the manner in which it's answered. Take the information presented, use it or throw it away - that's up to you. You can't get worked up because you didn't like the 'tone' of the response - just be grateful someone cared enough to try to help.
Tone matters. I question whether some of the people who respond...not referring to anybody in this thread...are actually trying to help. I think there really are a few who just like to take any opportunity to talk down to somebody else, and these forums give them an easy way to do it. I also think there are a few who care much more about trying to be funny and posting the cutest cat gif than they do about trying to help the OP. Hijacking someone's thread when they ask for help is not helpful.
Tone is entirely on the recipients side of written communication...
^^^I just typed that in my best robot voice - did that come through?0 -
nvsmomketo wrote: »danieltsmoke wrote: ».
When I first started the forum I was quite surprised by the responses too. It was all about CICO, which I agree is the root of weight control whether it is loss maintenance or gaining, but it felt as though there was only one acceptable way to do it and that was through moderation, or IIFYM to a lesser degree. There seems to be very little respect for other ways of eating like veganism, LCHF, vegetarianism, keto diet, or even reducing processed foods or sugars.
If someone asks for dietary advice or just support for their way of eating, a common response is "why are you doing this if it isn't medically needed?" or what the OP is doing wrong in their opinion, or "humour" that is often at the OP's expense. Responses too frequently do not to answer the question. IMO.
I have to say that I find the bolded part to be very true. In fact, I posted something not too terribly long ago asking for recommendations on dairy free milk and yogurt substitutes. Within the post itself I explained that I have Celiac's Disease and have been GF for 3 years, but I've been symptomatic lately. And a common reason for that with Celiac's is eating too much dairy due to the difficulty in digestion. As such, I was looking to cut dairy.
Even with that caveat, multiple people popped in to tell me not to eat substitutes and just drink 'regular' milk.
It can be very frustrating and disheartening to use these forums sometimes. While I agree that the basic tenet of CICO is correct and works (It has for me!), I think some people need to remember that weight loss is very complicated for some people and often digs into emotional things. Being overly dismissive (even if you are providing helpful information) and rude to people who are just trying to start out making a change can throw a lot of people off track. Make them think 'why bother?'
And I know some people are probably thinking right now - if a little forum banter is going to throw you off, then you're never going to lose weight, etc. But why provide more obstacles for people who are trying to do this.
Focus the vitriol on people providing completely incorrect advice or being rude. Take a little more tact with people genuinely looking for advice.
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kittywrangler wrote: »ogmomma2012 wrote: »kittywrangler wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »bennettinfinity wrote: »accidentalpancake wrote: »ogmomma2012 wrote: »professionalHobbyist wrote: »There are lots of condescending comments to new people on MFP.
The whole CICO is one very simple aspect of food
It ignores all of the other aspects of nutrition
I ate a crappy diet. Eating less of a crappy diet is not the best health option. That is why my dr sent me to a nutritionist.
I don't think many people want to just lose weight with no regard to learning how to eat a balanced diet.
Maybe some do, not sure why but that is their choice.
I'm glad I had worked with a nutritionist and trainer before getting to MFP.
The point is to understand the first step. Calorie restriction. That puts you on the road to rejecting large calorie loads (ONE cookie is 300 calories?! NOT worth it! *munches carrots*)
CICO isn't ABOUT -health-, it's just the science behind weight loss. When people ask about weight loss, that is the answer they get.
Actually, pretty much any question is answered with CICO, which is part of the problem.
Want advice on eating healthier diet? You'll get a ridiculous argument that food is food and CICO is all that matters.
Ask a question about a plateau? The answer is CICO and you must not be accurately tracking intake.
It'd be amusing if it weren't so actively unhelpful to those seeking assistance.
If you have better advice, we're all ears... pardon me if I don't hold my breath.
If you think that spouting off CICO as the final answer to either of the example questions in my post, there's no discussion worth having.
Some of us prefer to realize that nuance and personal circumstance play a large role in success. If someone wants to give low carb a try or reduce their sugar intake, who are you to demean that decision?
CICO isn't being denied, only the derisive and unhelpful way in which it is used to belittle any approach that adds other, more personal variables.
So, you don't really have one.
Due to a lot of complaints about the "incomplete" nature of the CICO response, most posters have modified it to be something along the lines of:
1) CICO for weight loss
2) Macros for health, satiety, consistency, and sustainability.
3) Exercise if you want to (but you probably should because it's good for you; find something you enjoy).
*Disclaimer: If you have a medical condition, talk to your doctor and probably a registered dietitian to set you on the right path for you.
I have not seen just "CICO" as a response in a long, long time, unless the OP is giving a lot of push back because there just HAS to be some secret.
And to the person saying tone matters - tone is extremely difficult to determine based on text. Is it just maybe possible that you read hostility into responses from people who you don't like/have had disagreements with? That seems to be the only tone issues I've ever truly seen.
Have a look at the thread entitled : "Help with Toning exercises" First post is pretty much what is being discussed here. Its a generalized CICO post with the again repeated "You can't spot reduce" all of which isn't even an answer to the OP's original question! Its not helping anyone.
4 out of the 7 or so posts include helpful sources of information. Do you expect people to spoon feed information to adults? Maybe it's because I usually try to Google stuff on my own before asking really simple questions on an internet forum... I just don't get why people don't just type their thread titles into Google.
Maybe people are looking for a connection? Maybe they're lonely. Maybe they need support. Maybe they're drunk. Maybe they've been bullied and are so frustrated with their weight they are looking for help and have no idea where to start. Enter MFP forums where they can further get online bullied. Unhelpful posts appear passive aggressive.
The point I'm trying to make is we are all human and I think a little more compassion is needed in life.
And we're supposed to get any of that from a post of 'I haven't lost weight in 3 days... HELP!!!'?0 -
ogmomma2012 wrote: »professionalHobbyist wrote: »There are lots of condescending comments to new people on MFP.
The whole CICO is one very simple aspect of food
It ignores all of the other aspects of nutrition
I ate a crappy diet. Eating less of a crappy diet is not the best health option. That is why my dr sent me to a nutritionist.
I don't think many people want to just lose weight with no regard to learning how to eat a balanced diet.
Maybe some do, not sure why but that is their choice.
I'm glad I had worked with a nutritionist and trainer before getting to MFP.
The point is to understand the first step. Calorie restriction.
That's not the first step.
It's not even the second step.
Please expand on this.
The first step for many people is accepting that there isn't any magic to the process and that they CAN do it. Many here don't believe they can, and many are looking for non-existent shortcuts.
The second step is to learn how to log - jumping right to calorie restrictions isn't going to help someone until they first figure out how to count what they're eating. And that happens...a LOT...around here.
(This is assuming someone is committing to calorie counting, which isn't strictly speaking necessary at all).
Well said. Weight loss is a process.0 -
This thread still going??
Still running in circles. LOL,
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sorry double post0
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The thing is, this is a forum on the internet, there are always going to be people that are rude/trolling/unhelpful etc. It's not something that is ever going to change because every forum that exists has the exact same problem from time to time. But there are also always really thoughtful, helpful posts in every thread here too. Overall MFP has a pretty great community, nitpicking about some people's attitudes really isn't worth the time or energy. You just have to take posts with a grain of salt and use common sense to weed out the voices that don't deserve to be heard. There isn't a "solution" to deal with the people that rub you the wrong way - even if they leave or get banned, another person just like them would come along. So just be glad for the great people here and ignore the idiots, it's really quite simple.
As far as weightloss goes, learning about CICO was the best thing that happened to me after joining here. I think losing over 150 pounds is proof of that.0 -
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(I feel a little strange posting this, like I'm too late to discuss the OP's topic, since the thread seems to have derailed into an argument about rude people. OH WELL! I'm going in anyway!)
To me, the OP makes this whole thing sound a lot scarier than it is. As I've just restarted my fitness journey, I guess I can't rightly say how inaccurate things are. I was told as a newbie not to trust the calorie and exercise calculators, though, and I always end the day with extra calories just in case. I'm losing weight again, so I guess the inaccuracies aren't so crazy that it's inhibiting my success. That's all I care about, honestly. I will admit, though, that maybe I just don't see the difficulty because I haven't yet approached my goal weight. I'm sure it gets harder the closer you get when your loss rate slows and you have to really make the calories count to get anywhere.
To my experience, the hardest part of this fitness journey is planning. I'm so used to just winging it every day! It really sucks when you go digging in the fridge and cupboards for ingredients and find that you're missing some, especially when you don't live particularly close to a grocery store. I've found that I can still eat a lot of the same things I did before (in moderation), but I have to use different ingredients (fat-free milk, fat-free cheese, light butter, turkey bacon/sauage and ground turkey, etc.) So adapting my grocery list and planning have been (are) the hardest parts of this for me.0 -
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bennettinfinity wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »bennettinfinity wrote: »nvsmomketo wrote: »It does partially come down to manners. For example, if someone is in front of you do you just say "move" or "excuse me please"? If someone's weight loss is stalled (and half a dozen people haven't already replied with the same advice) do you say "CICO" or " Are you sure you are eating at a calorie deficit? Sometimes using a food scale can help you make sure you aren't accidentally eating more than you think."? I know which ones i would respond to better.
But if you're the one asking the question, you don't get to direct the manner in which it's answered. Take the information presented, use it or throw it away - that's up to you. You can't get worked up because you didn't like the 'tone' of the response - just be grateful someone cared enough to try to help.
Tone matters. I question whether some of the people who respond...not referring to anybody in this thread...are actually trying to help. I think there really are a few who just like to take any opportunity to talk down to somebody else, and these forums give them an easy way to do it. I also think there are a few who care much more about trying to be funny and posting the cutest cat gif than they do about trying to help the OP. Hijacking someone's thread when they ask for help is not helpful.
Tone is entirely on the recipients side of written communication...
^^^I just typed that in my best robot voice - did that come through?
DANGIT. I was totally reading you as a chirpy bird! #butthurt
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Hi there, Although I am very new here and just beginning my weight loss journey and I have a goal to loose close to 200lb.
I have noticed with making sure my calorie count is on target is I have been searching individual items when I have an idea of what I want to eat. If my items are too fatty, too sugary, salty.. then I try to think of an alternative choice. I have had a problem with sodium intake (too high) even though I am using "low salt" items.
I am not used to making individual meals so what I found that is VERY helpful is if you use the "my recipe section" on here.
It really helps you to create what you want, and it calculates the actual calories, fats..etc for you based upon your ingredients you are using for your recipe.
Once you have all your ingredients together it will calculate everything for you for each serving. You also can save your recipe and if changes are made it is easy to adjust you as you go.
I have been strictly sticking to the formula template on MFP. My physician recommended this program to help me in my journey. I have only been on here a few days but I am loving the site.
In the past I have used journals before but I was never able to truly calculate the actual caloric contents exactly which made me tend to overeat far more than what I thought I was actually eating.
My physician also told me that he read an article that tested 2 groups of people about the content of food they were eating. People who used a site like this vs. a hand written one or just using a spreadsheet program. Overall people whom used a spreadsheet ate more than 30% more than they actually thought they were eating. The people who used a site like this lost far more weight.
Good luck on your journey !!!!!!!0 -
danieltsmoke wrote: »I've lost 40lbs about, so what I'm doing is working for me, I'm not complaining. But I get frustrated when I see a forums response like "Just eat less calories than you're burning...are you sure you're weighing accurately?" This seems patronizing, and also is flawed in a couple ways.
First, it's really difficult to just know how many calories you're burning..I don't have a butt stamp indicating that number, or even an owners manual, so the best I've got is taking blood tests and running fitness experiments (which simply isn't practical for an average person), OR using an online calculator/guestimator, which let's be honest, has a HUGE margin of error. Some sites I have a 2500 TDE, some say 3500..
Secondly, its really difficult to just know how many calories you're eating..Have you googled "food label accuracy"? That stuff can often be 20%-40% wrong..not even to mention that some things just cant be calculated accurately..ie. one steak from a package could be hugely more caloric-ly dense simply due to a higher fat content.
My point is, even if you follow all the right steps, you could easily have an over estimated TDE (by no fault of your own), and eat far underestimated calories (by no fault of your own), and simply not lose weight. Thus "just eat less than you burn" is fairly useless.
If I had any advice to offer to people struggling, I'd say it's all about trial and error, which can be frustratingly slow. You gotta try something, whether its working out more, or trying to stay under a certain amount-ish of calories, and see how that goes for a few weeks. If that doesn't work, change it up, and try again. Patience has been my biggest struggle but probably my greatest ally during the last few months, and I know that once you find your groove you're gonna kick your fitness goals right in the somewhat large *kitten*. Rant over..
No method is 100% accurate short of putting all of us in a hospital, radiotagging our food and the oxygen we breathe, and putting us under constant surveillance. I don't think that means that cueing people who complain of poor outcomes to try to improve the accuracy of their estimates is a bad thing - it seems like a reasonable suggestion, IMHO.
I find the whole calorie counting thing kind of interesting. I went into it with two assumptions - 1) the act of logging everything I eat will yield weight loss benefits in and of itself, regardless of whether I'm particularly accurate about weighing or measuring it, and 2) it's extremely easy to systematically underestimate one's caloric intake, no matter how accurate one tries to be when one measures.
In my case, I haven't been particularly accurate about weighing or measuring my food. I've occasionally used a cup measure when I remembered, but otherwise I've been going off food labels, and just plain eyeballing. And I've done a fairly good job with a highly aggressively rate of loss - even though my starting weight wasn't that high (I was decently overweight, but not obese when I began this), which theoretically should make my weight loss more difficult (always easier to lose when one has a lot more weight to begin with).
Several things I think have worked for me. Regarding assumption #1 - I think logging food is a weight loss tool in and of itself. It's a tool to increase awareness of one's intake, which tends to short-circuit (for most of us) the pattern of unconscious eating a grazing throughout the day. Regarding #2 - I made sure to always have a practice of constantly OVERestimating what I eat, in order to counteract the persistent human tendency to overeat whenever possible (evolutionary drive to store calories to deal with the next famine).
Weight loss, IMHO, is never easy - but I think it is indeed quite simple, and I think it's probably useful for many of us to get CICO hammered into our heads because there's a lot of misinformation and what they call "fatlogic" out there, which mystifies the whole process of weight loss and dieting (e.g., it's my genetics, my thyroid, my condishuns, etc).
Anyways, interesting thread.
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klmnumbers wrote: »nvsmomketo wrote: »danieltsmoke wrote: ».
When I first started the forum I was quite surprised by the responses too. It was all about CICO, which I agree is the root of weight control whether it is loss maintenance or gaining, but it felt as though there was only one acceptable way to do it and that was through moderation, or IIFYM to a lesser degree. There seems to be very little respect for other ways of eating like veganism, LCHF, vegetarianism, keto diet, or even reducing processed foods or sugars.
If someone asks for dietary advice or just support for their way of eating, a common response is "why are you doing this if it isn't medically needed?" or what the OP is doing wrong in their opinion, or "humour" that is often at the OP's expense. Responses too frequently do not to answer the question. IMO.
I have to say that I find the bolded part to be very true. In fact, I posted something not too terribly long ago asking for recommendations on dairy free milk and yogurt substitutes. Within the post itself I explained that I have Celiac's Disease and have been GF for 3 years, but I've been symptomatic lately. And a common reason for that with Celiac's is eating too much dairy due to the difficulty in digestion. As such, I was looking to cut dairy.
Even with that caveat, multiple people popped in to tell me not to eat substitutes and just drink 'regular' milk.
It can be very frustrating and disheartening to use these forums sometimes. While I agree that the basic tenet of CICO is correct and works (It has for me!), I think some people need to remember that weight loss is very complicated for some people and often digs into emotional things. Being overly dismissive (even if you are providing helpful information) and rude to people who are just trying to start out making a change can throw a lot of people off track. Make them think 'why bother?'
And I know some people are probably thinking right now - if a little forum banter is going to throw you off, then you're never going to lose weight, etc. But why provide more obstacles for people who are trying to do this.
Focus the vitriol on people providing completely incorrect advice or being rude. Take a little more tact with people genuinely looking for advice.
Uhm... I just had a look over your thread because I couldn't believe that happened and that's not what happened in your thread.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Uhm... I just had a look over your thread because I couldn't believe that happened and that's not what happened in your thread.
I don't really want to get into an argument, but two people did, in fact, tell me to either eat nothing at all or to eat "real" dairy. One apologized, which I appreciated. I posted asking for suggestions for dairy substitutes. I did get good recommendations (rocking some almond breeze unsweetened in my coffee as we speak). But my point remains, for me, that it is frustrating to make a post and have people come in telling you to not do what you are asking for advice for at all.
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I've lost 149 lbs in total using CICO and it's really not too hard. Maybe because I still have 70-90 lbs to go so my margin of error is slightly bigger than someone whom has only a few pounds to lose. That being said, so long as your accounting for error in your calories or the workout calories you earn then it's really not a huge deal. I used to think weight loss was so hard and complicated and I could never do it, or never be as fit as I want to be. Really, just being mindful of what you consume and moving your body is all there is too it. And to be honest, most people that say they aren't losing weight, are not using food scales or logging correctly, I feel they know that but they still want something to blame, ie your not eating enough calories to lose weight.
A few times I've been all "I'm doing everything right but not losing weight" then I have to ask myself, am I really. Often times, I stopped logging everything, started taking big bites of food that add up, ect.
Helpful or not. And maybe a few people aren't super nice and are fairly condescending when they say it, but weight loss IS CICO.0 -
ashypashy7 wrote: »I've lost 149 lbs in total using CICO and it's really not too hard. Maybe because I still have 70-90 lbs to go so my margin of error is slightly bigger than someone whom has only a few pounds to lose. That being said, so long as your accounting for error in your calories or the workout calories you earn then it's really not a huge deal. I used to think weight loss was so hard and complicated and I could never do it, or never be as fit as I want to be. Really, just being mindful of what you consume and moving your body is all there is too it. And to be honest, most people that say they aren't losing weight, are not using food scales or logging correctly, I feel they know that but they still want something to blame, ie your not eating enough calories to lose weight.
A few times I've been all "I'm doing everything right but not losing weight" then I have to ask myself, am I really. Often times, I stopped logging everything, started taking big bites of food that add up, ect.
Helpful or not. And maybe a few people aren't super nice and are fairly condescending when they say it, but weight loss IS CICO.
Wow . . . wonderful success! Congratulations.
I 100% agree with your post. That said, having lost 67 pounds and with 3 to go, CICO still isn't that hard. By now, I've kind of figured out how accurate MFP is with exercise burns. My biggest stumbling block is the frequency with which I eat at maintenance. I've also had a couple times where I've found myself grabbing unlogged bites and lost more slowly than I "should" have. For me, figuring out CICO isn't hard at all--the mental stuff sometimes is.0
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