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Food Addiction - A Different Perspective
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@PeachyCarol Another shining example of excellence in posting - well-reasoned, emphatic, and logical.
Bravo Zulu!
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kshama2001 wrote: »
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
Why is it invalidating to tell someone the truth?
Maybe the delivery can be too harsh, I grant you that. But really, tell someone the truth.
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Are you making the claim that telling someone they don't have an addiction when what they have is not an addiction is invalidating and disempowering? Validation is for feelings, not facts. People who come on MFP saying "I'm addicted to blank" get a lot more resistance than people that say "I feel like I'm addicted to blank".kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
I think fueling a delusion is disempowering, but then again, I hold rational and empirical processes as the only shambling way humanity has moved forward.0 -
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kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
Well, there's a fine line between validating and enabling.
Letting someone think they're addicted when they're not is enabling, imo.
Telling someone they're not addicted and leaving at that isn't helpful, I'll agree even though it's the truth and it's a message that the poster needs to absorb for their own well-being. Adding further advice? That's a different story. It changes the message of the first part to one where you're reframing the person's perception of themselves. You're not necessarily invalidating someone by challenging their assumptions.
I've been on many sugar threads, but have stopped responding, but I tend to respond in a similar fashion to lemurcat. I tell the person they're not addicted, but that I understand that certain foods are now a problem for them (there's that validation). I share my experience and what worked for me, because that's all the advice I'm comfortable giving.
Posts like that tend to get lost in the "it's addiction!" "it's not addiction!" furor.
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Great article on a controversial issue.
I don't talk very much about the specifics of it all much on the forums, but I am one of the few that has been diagnosed with BED. For me BED is the closest thing clinically to the criteria for abuse or dependence aka addiction. However it is not the substance that is addictive as you stated so well, it is the trigger and then the binging as a response as self medicating or comfort.
I know what my trigger foods are and I could easily say I am addicted to them, but I know physically I am not. I did go to therapy (which I highly recommend for anyone who thinks they may have BED since it is not appropriate to self diagnose). Part of my treatment regimen was to identify the trigger foods, the trigger emotions and then to have an actionable plan in place when I am triggered in the future. It's a lot of self care activities, a healthy support system and some cognitive behavior techniques. Honestly, it is not a lot different than what happens often in and out of the rooms at AA and NA meetings.
However I am not addicted to food. I have a disorder where I pathological comfort with food.
I also know that for me it is not in my self care plan to deny myself in total my trigger foods. Well except in one circumstance....when I am triggered emotionally....I cannot consume those foods. They are off the table. Not because they are bad or because I am physically addicted to them, but because I know my brain is trying to feed an emotional hunger and I refuse to engage it.
Thanks for bringing this up and I have hope that the forum can have an honest and respectful conversation about this.
Well said.
It's discouraging to hear people who think these are excuses. They aren't.
There are reasons why someone develops a disorder.
That's not a choice.
The choice is what you did to get help.
Very inspiring.
Thanks for sharing.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
It's not invalidating someone's experience to help them realize that they aren't addicted to food. It's validating to acknowledge that you are aware they have a problem and need help, and that you are willing to help them. Just because someone has labeled their problem of overeating with the wrong label - addiction - doesn't mean you just allow that label to stick and address the problem from that angle, because that's not helpful. Assisting the person in finding the reason for overeating is helpful.
And no, most people addicted to heroin, nicotine and alcohol do not quit on their own.
The Surprising Truth About Addiction
More people quit addictions than maintain them, and they do so on their own.
Read more: https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200407/the-surprising-truth-about-addiction
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Excellent post and great discussion0
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Is it Zombie thread day today?
I like the term Eating Addiction (has a better ring to it).
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S01497634140021400 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »Is it Zombie thread day today?
I like the term Eating Addiction (has a better ring to it).
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763414002140
Nope. Couldn't prove their theory in humans, so they went back to the mice, which can't follow through to human studies. It's been proven over and over again. Doesn't matter what you call it.0 -
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tennisdude2004 wrote: »Is it Zombie thread day today?
I like the term Eating Addiction (has a better ring to it).
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763414002140
As I've said before (possibly even in this thread--they all run together), and like Caitwn, I also think that the concept explained in that link is a good way of thinking about it (although it's rarer than claimed on the MFP boards, IMO).
Not sure why all the "addiction" threads are being resurrected today, though -- because of the US holiday weekend coming up?0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
It's not invalidating someone's experience to help them realize that they aren't addicted to food. It's validating to acknowledge that you are aware they have a problem and need help, and that you are willing to help them. Just because someone has labeled their problem of overeating with the wrong label - addiction - doesn't mean you just allow that label to stick and address the problem from that angle, because that's not helpful. Assisting the person in finding the reason for overeating is helpful.
And no, most people addicted to heroin, nicotine and alcohol do not quit on their own.
The Surprising Truth About Addiction
More people quit addictions than maintain them, and they do so on their own.
Read more: https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200407/the-surprising-truth-about-addiction
I find one issue with the article. well, more than one, but one major one
It doesn't differentiate between abusers and addicts. And in my experience, there is a different
The Big Book talks about the real alcoholic. The real alcoholic is different than the abuser. I was an abuser when I was younger. but I could quit on my own. A real alcoholic has a different response to alcohol. When our bodies tell us to stop, their bodies don't. In fact, many are energized. I would imagine that an eating addiction would look like someone who's body doesn't have the same response to food as i do. Where my body says stop eating, you're full, their body doesn't give them the same response. A binge eater might qualify for as an abuser and an addict. their bodies may not give them the same response as ours but they also use food to bury or sooth feelings, like an alcohol abuser or drug abuser.
Also, even if you go to treatment, aren't you still quitting on your own? If you go to a voluntary support group like AA, are you not quitting on your own with the support of others who have gone thru or are going thru the same thing
When you say a smoker does it on his or her own, this isn't necessarily true. Typically, a smoker will have plenty of support from friends and family to quit, sometimes even from current smokers. Smokers often relapse back into smoking. Did they still quit on their own? Self reported responses can be questionable. That and the shame that is still related to having to go to treatment and some not responding that they are in AA due to the anonymity aspect of it.1 -
Alcohol is a food too and some people (science shows) are addicted to it. Certainly no reason to drink alcohol if you can't do it moderately and it leads to adverse consequences. That was my experience. I have the same personal experience around high sugar foods. So for me no reason to eat them and easier not too. I think we each have to find our own path as to what is the easiest way to stay the course for CICO balance (or deficit if we are losing weight). I think its hilarious that people think we are all "the same." Whether genetics/epigenetics/environmental/emotional or whatever we all have to find out what works for us to eat CICO(and get help if we need it). The "one size fits all" makes no sense to me. To say it is easier not to eat a certain foot may change throughout one's life, but I like the first post that began this chain -- a personal reflection on what works for one person, which may help someone else. To say one is addicted to alcohol or drugs, for example, is a beginning step to move forward to a life of sobriety -- not "giving up," or making excuses. It is the opposite, and incredibly liberating and powerful. It means actually having to find a way to live in health.0
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I think people can certainly have trigger foods. But to claim to be addicted to some foods with lots of sugar and not others (as is common) or to be a sugar addict who is fine with having a spoonful from the jar (or never would, even when craving sugar) is rather like claiming to be addicted to wine and not beer or pinot noir but not cabernet.
That's what I see as the problem with the claim.
But if people prefer not eating certain foods, that's a sensible choice to make. I think PeachyCarol's original post dealt with some really interesting research about WHY some behaviorial-addiction-like behaviors develop around food that suggested some approaches to avoid, so I'd hate to have this be hijacked (especially as a zombie thread) into the rather unhelpful argument about whether food addiction is real (which always seems to founder on people having different ideas of what an addiction actually is).
I suspect we can all agree that people can have dysfunctional reactions to eating or certain foods and that there are strategies that can work in dealing with that, depending on the specifics.
What I dislike about the current tendency to call any out of control feeling around food an "addiction" is that it ignores the specifics and thus often makes it harder to come up with strategies of dealing. And very often at MFP it is used as an excuse (and same with for some real addicts (IMO), although addiction counselors and recovering addicts will not put up with that, of course) -- I've seen numerous OPs say that they CAN'T eat less or lose weight because they are addicted and will go buy the foods if they don't have them at home.
Anyway, what I think is helpful -- and I always try to nicely get the information -- is to talk about when and under what circumstances one has the out of control feelings or eats without thinking about it. That often helps the person come up with a strategy and also can normalize the situation so the person understands that what they have assumed is something wrong with them is really pretty normal and common.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »Is it Zombie thread day today?
I like the term Eating Addiction (has a better ring to it).
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763414002140
As I've said before (possibly even in this thread--they all run together), and like Caitwn, I also think that the concept explained in that link is a good way of thinking about it (although it's rarer than claimed on the MFP boards, IMO).
Not sure why all the "addiction" threads are being resurrected today, though -- because of the US holiday weekend coming up?
Don't go blaming us Yanks just because we cause most of the world's problems.0 -
Compulsive behavior is often a better term
And of course a compulsion can be food focused.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »Is it Zombie thread day today?
I like the term Eating Addiction (has a better ring to it).
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763414002140
As I've said before (possibly even in this thread--they all run together), and like Caitwn, I also think that the concept explained in that link is a good way of thinking about it (although it's rarer than claimed on the MFP boards, IMO).
Not sure why all the "addiction" threads are being resurrected today, though -- because of the US holiday weekend coming up?
Because some people find them impossible to give up
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People who think that addiction is a permanent condition are wrong:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200407/the-surprising-truth-about-addiction
...For some reason, we exempt addiction from our beliefs about change. In both popular and scientific models, addiction is seen as locking you into an inescapable pattern of behavior. Both folk wisdom, as represented by Alcoholics Anonymous, and modern neuroscience regard addiction as a virtually permanent brain disease. No matter how many years ago your uncle Joe had his last drink, he is still considered an alcoholic. The very word addict confers an identity that admits no other possibilities. It incorporates the assumption that you can't, or won't, change.
But this fatalistic thinking about addiction doesn't jibe with the facts. More people overcome addictions than do not. And the vast majority do so without therapy. Quitting may take several tries, and people may not stop smoking, drinking or using drugs altogether. But eventually they succeed in shaking dependence.
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Please see my response. There are flawed assumptions to this article0
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I don't accept that foods are addictive
I think that pretty much anything pleasurable can be addictive. This is why gambling is addictive. People get off on the rush and excitement and thrill of winning or even the possibility of winning such that they willfully ignore the negative consequences of losing. There is no chemical addiction going on here (other than the obvious brain chemicals involved) as there is nothing being ingested.
The same goes for things like tablet computer/phone use, sex, pornography, exercise, video games, and a host of other compulsions that people indulge in.
All of these things trigger a reward chemical response in the brain that can be repeatedly sought out, and often is even in spite of great personal risk and shame.Two of the reports (6,7), as well as our own work (14–16), suggest that even highly palatable food is not addictive in and of itself. Rather, it is the manner in which the food is presented (i.e., intermittently) and consumed (i.e., repeated, intermittent “gorging”) that appears to entrain the addiction-like process.
I'd agree with that. Growing up, good food was always an intermittent treat to be indulged in and enjoyed copiously. Going out to dinner was typically an intermittent activity looked forward to with great zeal for the great food and copious quantities. In fact very often the quantity of food available (i.e. buffet or "all you can eat") was a big part of the choice of place to eat. Of course, the only reason it was "intermittent" was because I or my family could never have afforded to eat like that all the time. Though I can't imagine we would indulge in non-palatable food, so I think the palatability (pleasure) is a big component also.
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Everyone,
In an effort to promote good discussion and keep threads alive, we have decided to clean up and put this thread back on the main forums. Having said that, we would like to remind everyone of the forum rules as noted in the link below. If anyone would have a question regarding any of the attached, please feel free to contact an admin or any moderator on the forums. If you see any violation of the below, please use the report function to notify a mod of a potential violation. At that time, the moderators will evaluate the report and decide if any action is required. Please do not take it upon yourself to try to mod the post... that's my job
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http://www.myfitnesspal.com/welcome/guidelines
v/r,
psuLemon
mod of the people and beholder of the ban hammer!0 -
This really has been cleaned up!! Wasn't it 40 pages before ???0
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tennisdude2004 wrote: »This really has been cleaned up!! Wasn't it 40 pages before ???
14... but this was the second cleaning.0 -
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tennisdude2004 wrote: »This really has been cleaned up!! Wasn't it 40 pages before ???
14... but this was the second cleaning.
You deserve a medal.
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This thread has information, science and discussion in it
This is still MFP right? Right?
Like I haven't walked into an alternative universe
Bugger. Now I'm going to act like I'm interested in stuff again, aren't I? And just when I was getting used to being all superficial0 -
I had a read before and I just enjoyed a recap. Very interesting.0
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