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Food Addiction - A Different Perspective
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Anyways, I know binging is a little different, but I definitely have issues with controlling myself around hyper palatable foods no matter the source; I'm just more likely to run to the store and buy candy or cookies than attempt to make anything at home when the cravings hit hardcore. And avoidance did nothing for me; my life actually kind of spiraled at that point, and I had anxiety about buying food and what I could and could not keep around the house.
What you say about bingeing on strange things and it not being about the taste is why bingeing has always sounded more similar to addiction to be (as I said to shell upthread) than people who focus on the difficulties with specific foods. There's no reason why a cookie would have a different effect than a cupcake than a Twinkie, but it's clear people may have one of those as a trigger and others as irrelevant. That's got to be emotional/psychological. (What I'd call comfort eating or driven by taste preference.)
But on the other hand, when the act of eating, just eating, whatever it is, has some psychological effect so that it blots out emotion or satisfies some compulsion, even and often when you aren't hungry and aren't enjoying the taste of the food, that sounds like addiction to me. Maybe there's a reason to call it something different, but the way in which it operates seems similar. Of course, you can't stop eating, though, so the issue becomes figuring out how to not eat in that way--which seems an issue for therapy.
I don't know; I do find it interesting. I don't feel like addiction is that clear cut either.
I think there's a distinction between not being interested in moderating something vs. being addicted to it, though. I've mentioned that I love naan many times, and that's how I feel about it, and Indian food in general. I'd rather have it less often and not worry about calories than just order carefully and have half a piece of naan. But I don't think that's about addiction, it's just how I like to enjoy certain foods.
True, but then going back to typical "I'm addicted to x" threads, I've never actually see anyone say they eat something even though they don't like the taste. It's always x tastes so good and I can never stop.
Oh, I totally agree, and that's why I think they are misusing the term or misunderstanding what addiction is.It has nothing to do with the sugar; it's the "package" the food comes in; the flavor, mouth feel, fats and other goodies the sugar is suspended in.
Yep, and again at least most of the scientist types promoting "food addiction" as a legitimate approach don't claim it's sugar--that's our sugar-focused culture. They seem to claim "hyperpalatable" foods in general, and high fat as much as sugary or processed starch (or more likely a combination thereof).
I just don't see how this would work in reality, since people do have quite specific triggers--it's like claiming you are addicted only to reds from the Southern Rhone, which is not a thing.0 -
vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
Too often it's a spiral that people think if they engage in the behavior (overeating or, unfortunately, eating certain foods) they are losers or failures or bad or naughty (ugh) or even disgusting, and that causes shame which they fill by eating more (since they already blew it or suck anyway, etc.).
This is also why I get really uncomfortable with approaches to food where people try to convince themselves that the food is bad or disgusting, as then if they eat it they will be. But of course that only changes whether they desire it in the short-term and just plays into the horrible feelings about themselves. (I also think this echoes some really distorted ideas about sexuality people can learn, and how they then get to be self-hating and ashamed of their own natural desires.)
That's also why I think taking the focus away from the problem being with the person (an addict) and their weakness and more on a problem that needs to be solved--here is a habit I must break, this is how it will be temporarily tough, here are strategies to try--are better than telling yourself you lack the power to manage around certain foods or that there's something wrong or flawed in you.1 -
My interpretation of some of the results is that trying to do the typical addiction treatment of total, lifelong withdrawal of substance might be the worst thing someone can do with a food they think is addictive. The dopamine lighting up that people call drug like tends to be highest for novel stimulus, so denying yourself for extended times is liable to make food cravings worse, not better.vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
Similarly, avoid any turning food into a reward kind of experience. Decoupling the two makes food only desirable as food, not as a way of capturing certain feelings.
I agree with this. There's all sorts of information about willpower being limited, and I understand how cutting it out entirely seems like an "easy" solution to not have to waste willpower required for moderation (just the willpower to not buy something). But, while abstinence is 100% effective in theory, it's usually a bad long term solution (true for birth control as well). It seems to me, that when you abstain from something but then are exposed later, it's much harder to avoid it in that situation, so you breakdown and have it, but not in moderation at all.
Um, I feel like I'm not explaining that well. For example, people will often say, I don't need cake; I will just not eat cake, make it, or have it in the house. It is then often pointed out and asked if that person will avoid all future celebrations that may serve cake (weddings, birthdays, etc), and honestly I can't remember the typical answer when people do answer. But, because you do only have so much willpower, it's harder to avoid in those cases. Willpower can be hard, but flexing it, using it, and creating habits seems to be more useful. When it's a habit to only take and eat a single portion, it's much easier to regulate the amount you eat when exposed to it in the future.0 -
I'm not an addict, but, for me, what works is the complete opposite. I think my food decisions, like my other decisions, are precisely about who I am as a person. My motivation to live up to my expectations of myself is exactly what enables me to succeed. If I were to fail to achieve my weight loss goals, for example, it would necessitate some serious self-reevaluation.lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
I'm not an addict, but, for me, what works is the complete opposite. I think my food decisions, like my other decisions, are precisely about who I am as a person. My motivation to live up to my expectations of myself is exactly what enables me to succeed. If I were to fail to achieve my weight loss goals, for example, it would necessitate some serious self-reevaluation.lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
I wonder if there's a shade of difference in what we mean by that, though. Or maybe it's just disagreement, which is fine too.
I don't think I was a bad person or a worthless one when I was fat. I made poor eating decisions, thoughtfully and not, but that didn't go to the core of who I was. In fact, that I regained weight after learning how to lose it and keeping it off for 5 years is because for a time I didn't care. It bothers me that I could stop caring, but I don't think the me who didn't mind being fat (or not so much as some other things) was a less worthy me than the one who does care, even though of course I'm proud of accomplishing the things I have in getting fit again.
Realizing that allowed me to think of food decisions more logically, as just about a means to a goal (sometimes pleasure, largely health, fuel, etc.). And if I have a goal and make a particular decision that's not ideal, well, I can make a different decision tomorrow, it's not that big a thing.
When people get wrapped up in the significance of how they eat to who they are, they often feel like their desire to eat "bad" food makes them bad, and they they are worthless because they can't seem to stick to their goals and so on. I think for many of them they would be much more able to set and meet goals if they got over that way of thinking about it.
One silly self-help thing I like (either from Josh Hillis or Dan John in the book Fat Loss Happens on Monday) is the statement that eating well just means eating like an adult. And among other things, it's not adult to beat yourself up or decide you are a rotten person because you ate something that maybe wasn't the best choice or overate.
That aside, there is a way in which I agree with you too, however. The fundamental change in my thinking was that I knew how to figure out and solve other problems, that I'd been generally successful in other things relying on determination, hard work, and intelligence, so there was zero reason to keep thinking of my weight or fitness as something somehow beyond my control. I could figure that out and fix it too. But for me that did mean separating my weight from who I was and thinking of it as something I could make decisions about--like I'd work on improving some other aspect of myself, but not like whether I was fundamentally worthy at all, if that distinction makes sense. It was like "oh of course I can be in shape if I just decide to do what's necessary and learn how if I don't know" as opposed to the feeling of powerlessness that my eating/body is just who I am and bad because I'm bad/worthless/a loser.1 -
kommodevaran wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
This was your personal experience, and I'd say this makes you an outlier. Most people who quit nicotine do experience withdrawal symptoms. Depending on the level of use, there can be headaches, nausea, dizziness, perspiration, loss of appetite, shaking, brain fog and a myriad of other potential symptoms. Quitting smoking was easier for you than it was for others, but that doesn't mean that nicotine is easy to quit for everyone. For most people, it's extraordinarily difficult, and the relapse rate is very high.
When it comes to food, it can't really be compared. People can't be asked to quit eating. Food is necessary to life. It may be possible to ask them to stop eating certain types of food, but it's actually much healthier to help people develop a healthy relationship with food so that avoidance isn't necessary in the first place.
And as far as hyperpalatable vs. whole foods? I know people who are obese and eat steak and potatoes to stay that way. They aren't sweets eaters or store bought food eaters at all. They're farmers. They claim they can't help eating mass quantities of steak. Is that an addiction? I'd argue no, in the same way I'd argue that a person isn't addiction to a cupcake or Doritos. It's never the food.
Maybe I am a special snowflake
I react atypically to a lot of stuff. Sugar never gives me that high/energy boost that I read about. It tastes good, but I get tired immediately, it often makes me (want to) lie down, and sleep. I don't feel relaxed and sociable from alcohol, it doesn't even make it easier to sleep, I just get dizzy and feel heavy, my memory fails and my mind slows down. I don't like it, it makes me feel more insecure around others. The only "normal" reaction I've had with alcohol, was with way too much once or twice when I was young, when I blacked out, did things I didn't want to, and passed out. Coffee has no effect on me either. I will get a high from pethidine, though, and I am energized and giggly when I wake from general anesthesia. I consumed around 20 cigarettes a day, for 10-12 years. I have to accept thet quitting can be painful for others, but for me it was just a bad habit.
I'm the same way with sugar and was sometimes the same way with alcohol as well. A normal dose of coffee gives me a brief high and then a crash, but I am fine with tea.
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I'm not sure if we're meaning the same thing or not.lemurcat12 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I'm not an addict, but, for me, what works is the complete opposite. I think my food decisions, like my other decisions, are precisely about who I am as a person. My motivation to live up to my expectations of myself is exactly what enables me to succeed. If I were to fail to achieve my weight loss goals, for example, it would necessitate some serious self-reevaluation.lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
I wonder if there's a shade of difference in what we mean by that, though. Or maybe it's just disagreement, which is fine too.
I don't think I was a bad person or a worthless one when I was fat. I made poor eating decisions, thoughtfully and not, but that didn't go to the core of who I was.
I didn't think less of myself as a person when I was fat. I would think less of myself as a person if I failed to take the logical steps not to get fat again.
My self worth wasn't wrapped up in my weight, but it is substantially wrapped up in my ability to act rationally toward my goals.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
Too often it's a spiral that people think if they engage in the behavior (overeating or, unfortunately, eating certain foods) they are losers or failures or bad or naughty (ugh) or even disgusting, and that causes shame which they fill by eating more (since they already blew it or suck anyway, etc.).
This is also why I get really uncomfortable with approaches to food where people try to convince themselves that the food is bad or disgusting, as then if they eat it they will be. But of course that only changes whether they desire it in the short-term and just plays into the horrible feelings about themselves. (I also think this echoes some really distorted ideas about sexuality people can learn, and how they then get to be self-hating and ashamed of their own natural desires.)
That's also why I think taking the focus away from the problem being with the person (an addict) and their weakness and more on a problem that needs to be solved--here is a habit I must break, this is how it will be temporarily tough, here are strategies to try--are better than telling yourself you lack the power to manage around certain foods or that there's something wrong or flawed in you.
For the record, I said POSITIVE self talk.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
I'm not sure if we're meaning the same thing or not.lemurcat12 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I'm not an addict, but, for me, what works is the complete opposite. I think my food decisions, like my other decisions, are precisely about who I am as a person. My motivation to live up to my expectations of myself is exactly what enables me to succeed. If I were to fail to achieve my weight loss goals, for example, it would necessitate some serious self-reevaluation.lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
I wonder if there's a shade of difference in what we mean by that, though. Or maybe it's just disagreement, which is fine too.
I don't think I was a bad person or a worthless one when I was fat. I made poor eating decisions, thoughtfully and not, but that didn't go to the core of who I was.
I didn't think less of myself as a person when I was fat. I would think less of myself as a person if I failed to take the logical steps not to get fat again.
My self worth wasn't wrapped up in my weight, but it is substantially wrapped up in my ability to act rationally toward my goals.
We may just have different expectations for humans always acting rationally or for the competing considerations and how they might affect whether you always live by your expectations. I would hope you'd be kind to yourself (while doing what you need to to lose again) if things happened so you did not maintain your weight, but I also hope that you (and I) don't have to face that.
Part of why I regained was because I was using food as a replacement for booze. I knew I was doing it (and no, it wasn't at all the same), but I was also scared not doing it would threaten my then-insecure sobriety. Looking back, yeah, there may well have been healthier ways to handle it, and I wish that after slipping back into some bad habits I'd taken less time to wake up to caring again, as well as to addressing my emotional issues with food/dysfunctional coping, but I also don't think there was anything so horrible about it and I did the best I could at the time.
I see lots of women who really hate themselves for getting fat (or often just for being a less than perfect weight), and I think one thing that actually made it a lot easier for me is that my self-image is somewhat less tied up in my weight (although I will admit now that I cared more than I pretended and am much happier when in better shape).0 -
vivmom2014 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
Too often it's a spiral that people think if they engage in the behavior (overeating or, unfortunately, eating certain foods) they are losers or failures or bad or naughty (ugh) or even disgusting, and that causes shame which they fill by eating more (since they already blew it or suck anyway, etc.).
This is also why I get really uncomfortable with approaches to food where people try to convince themselves that the food is bad or disgusting, as then if they eat it they will be. But of course that only changes whether they desire it in the short-term and just plays into the horrible feelings about themselves. (I also think this echoes some really distorted ideas about sexuality people can learn, and how they then get to be self-hating and ashamed of their own natural desires.)
That's also why I think taking the focus away from the problem being with the person (an addict) and their weakness and more on a problem that needs to be solved--here is a habit I must break, this is how it will be temporarily tough, here are strategies to try--are better than telling yourself you lack the power to manage around certain foods or that there's something wrong or flawed in you.
For the record, I said POSITIVE self talk.
I know--my point was that rather than positive self talk, it might be the absence of negative self talk. Instead of adding the one (although I'm all for that too), subtracting the other as something very helpful to do.1 -
kommodevaran wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
This was your personal experience, and I'd say this makes you an outlier. Most people who quit nicotine do experience withdrawal symptoms. Depending on the level of use, there can be headaches, nausea, dizziness, perspiration, loss of appetite, shaking, brain fog and a myriad of other potential symptoms. Quitting smoking was easier for you than it was for others, but that doesn't mean that nicotine is easy to quit for everyone. For most people, it's extraordinarily difficult, and the relapse rate is very high.
When it comes to food, it can't really be compared. People can't be asked to quit eating. Food is necessary to life. It may be possible to ask them to stop eating certain types of food, but it's actually much healthier to help people develop a healthy relationship with food so that avoidance isn't necessary in the first place.
And as far as hyperpalatable vs. whole foods? I know people who are obese and eat steak and potatoes to stay that way. They aren't sweets eaters or store bought food eaters at all. They're farmers. They claim they can't help eating mass quantities of steak. Is that an addiction? I'd argue no, in the same way I'd argue that a person isn't addiction to a cupcake or Doritos. It's never the food.
Maybe I am a special snowflake I react atypically to a lot of stuff. Sugar never gives me that high/energy boost that I read about. It tastes good, but I get tired immidiately, it often makes me (want to) lie down, and sleep. I don't feel relaxed and sociable from alcohol, it doesn't even make it easier to sleep, I just get dizzy and feel heavy, my memory fails and my mind slows down. I don't like it, it makes me feel more insecure around others. The only "normal" reaction I've had with alcohol, was with way too much once or twice when I was young, when I blacked out, did things I didn't want to, and passed out. Coffee has no effect on me either. I will get a high from pethidine, though, and I am energized and giggly when I wake from general anesthesia. I consumed around 20 cigarettes a day, for 10-12 years. I have to accept thet quitting can be painful for others, but for me it was just a bad habit.
Actually, from what I've seen, there is no such thing as a sugar rush, at least not the one adults think happens to kids. When sugar is added to foods without kids or adults being aware, they're no more likely to be active than they would after the same meal, as based on hyperactive ratings given by parents and other adults that are also unaware of if the food has had sugar added.
The evidence tends to be that hyperactivity associated with sugar comes from the association sugary foods have with energetic events: cakes and candies tend to be treats during celebrations.
Your reactions to alcohol actually sound a bit like someone that gets drunk too fast. While alcohol does tend to make people tired, it can make it hard for people to go to sleep, particularly people that get dizzy from it, which tends to happen when at the more intoxicated end.1 -
Well, I tried not to generalize my expectations of myself to expectations for others. It's the way I view things for myself, but I don't expect others to view themselves or their actions the same way.lemurcat12 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I'm not sure if we're meaning the same thing or not.lemurcat12 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I'm not an addict, but, for me, what works is the complete opposite. I think my food decisions, like my other decisions, are precisely about who I am as a person. My motivation to live up to my expectations of myself is exactly what enables me to succeed. If I were to fail to achieve my weight loss goals, for example, it would necessitate some serious self-reevaluation.lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
I wonder if there's a shade of difference in what we mean by that, though. Or maybe it's just disagreement, which is fine too.
I don't think I was a bad person or a worthless one when I was fat. I made poor eating decisions, thoughtfully and not, but that didn't go to the core of who I was.
I didn't think less of myself as a person when I was fat. I would think less of myself as a person if I failed to take the logical steps not to get fat again.
My self worth wasn't wrapped up in my weight, but it is substantially wrapped up in my ability to act rationally toward my goals.
We may just have different expectations for humans always acting rationally or for the competing considerations and how they might affect whether you always live by your expectations. I would hope you'd be kind to yourself (while doing what you need to to lose again) if things happened so you did not maintain your weight, but I also hope that you (and I) don't have to face that.
Part of why I regained was because I was using food as a replacement for booze. I knew I was doing it (and no, it wasn't at all the same), but I was also scared not doing it would threaten my then-insecure sobriety. Looking back, yeah, there may well have been healthier ways to handle it, and I wish that after slipping back into some bad habits I'd taken less time to wake up to caring again, as well as to addressing my emotional issues with food/dysfunctional coping, but I also don't think there was anything so horrible about it and I did the best I could at the time.
I see lots of women who really hate themselves for getting fat (or often just for being a less than perfect weight), and I think one thing that actually made it a lot easier for me is that my self-image is somewhat less tied up in my weight (although I will admit now that I cared more than I pretended and am much happier when in better shape).
If I failed -- I won't -- to keep off the fat, I would not be remotely kind to myself. I don't suffer fools gladly, particularly and especially if I'm being the fool. I would be bitterly annoyed and disappointed in myself. I would have a much lower opinion of myself. Hell, I probably wouldn't think the same of myself ever again. Failing in this would be something that's so completely alien to my conception of who I am that I simply cannot allow it to happen.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
Too often it's a spiral that people think if they engage in the behavior (overeating or, unfortunately, eating certain foods) they are losers or failures or bad or naughty (ugh) or even disgusting, and that causes shame which they fill by eating more (since they already blew it or suck anyway, etc.).
This is also why I get really uncomfortable with approaches to food where people try to convince themselves that the food is bad or disgusting, as then if they eat it they will be. But of course that only changes whether they desire it in the short-term and just plays into the horrible feelings about themselves. (I also think this echoes some really distorted ideas about sexuality people can learn, and how they then get to be self-hating and ashamed of their own natural desires.)
That's also why I think taking the focus away from the problem being with the person (an addict) and their weakness and more on a problem that needs to be solved--here is a habit I must break, this is how it will be temporarily tough, here are strategies to try--are better than telling yourself you lack the power to manage around certain foods or that there's something wrong or flawed in you.
For the record, I said POSITIVE self talk.
I know--my point was that rather than positive self talk, it might be the absence of negative self talk. Instead of adding the one (although I'm all for that too), subtracting the other as something very helpful to do.
Ah, okay.
I have seen great strides in a loved one who suffers from a profound guilt problem to say, immediately upon having negative thoughts, "I reject that thought." Is that positive self talk or the absence of negative? Hmmm. Whatever it is, it has really empowered this person to make some healthy mental shifts. Which is the end goal.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
Well, I tried not to generalize my expectations of myself to expectations for others. It's the way I view things for myself, but I don't expect others to view themselves or their actions the same way.lemurcat12 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I'm not sure if we're meaning the same thing or not.lemurcat12 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I'm not an addict, but, for me, what works is the complete opposite. I think my food decisions, like my other decisions, are precisely about who I am as a person. My motivation to live up to my expectations of myself is exactly what enables me to succeed. If I were to fail to achieve my weight loss goals, for example, it would necessitate some serious self-reevaluation.lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
I wonder if there's a shade of difference in what we mean by that, though. Or maybe it's just disagreement, which is fine too.
I don't think I was a bad person or a worthless one when I was fat. I made poor eating decisions, thoughtfully and not, but that didn't go to the core of who I was.
I didn't think less of myself as a person when I was fat. I would think less of myself as a person if I failed to take the logical steps not to get fat again.
My self worth wasn't wrapped up in my weight, but it is substantially wrapped up in my ability to act rationally toward my goals.
We may just have different expectations for humans always acting rationally or for the competing considerations and how they might affect whether you always live by your expectations. I would hope you'd be kind to yourself (while doing what you need to to lose again) if things happened so you did not maintain your weight, but I also hope that you (and I) don't have to face that.
Part of why I regained was because I was using food as a replacement for booze. I knew I was doing it (and no, it wasn't at all the same), but I was also scared not doing it would threaten my then-insecure sobriety. Looking back, yeah, there may well have been healthier ways to handle it, and I wish that after slipping back into some bad habits I'd taken less time to wake up to caring again, as well as to addressing my emotional issues with food/dysfunctional coping, but I also don't think there was anything so horrible about it and I did the best I could at the time.
I see lots of women who really hate themselves for getting fat (or often just for being a less than perfect weight), and I think one thing that actually made it a lot easier for me is that my self-image is somewhat less tied up in my weight (although I will admit now that I cared more than I pretended and am much happier when in better shape).
If I failed -- I won't -- to keep off the fat, I would not be remotely kind to myself. I don't suffer fools gladly, particularly and especially if I'm being the fool. I would be bitterly annoyed and disappointed in myself. I would have a much lower opinion of myself. Hell, I probably wouldn't think the same of myself ever again. Failing in this would be something that's so completely alien to my conception of who I am that I simply cannot allow it to happen.
I think society as a whole is very harsh in its view of those who lose weight and then regain it. It's almost worse than a drug or cigarette relapse; which really doesn't make sense, if you think about it, because those things are not necessary for life, once quit. And food must continue to be consumed. So many people lose weight through methods that don't teach them how to maintain, so they regain the weight once goal weight is achieved. And yet we condemn them for it as if they've let everyone else down and not just themselves.1 -
I actually just thought of a way in which thinking of it more rationally--and less of a reflection of who I am--is pragmatically related to a change that will help me keep the weight off (although we will see).
When I finally started regaining before I didn't initially notice, and then when I did, and started to care, I was reluctant to get back on the scale, because I knew I'd feel like such a failure and that the self-hate would be demotivating. So instead I decided I'd lose the weight and then weigh, and of course that meant it wasn't concrete enough, I couldn't see the progress so clearly, and I'd keep starting and stopping or putting it off when things got difficult. And I knew better, because accepting my weight, seeing the scale, and making a specific plan had been so important the first time.
This time I think I'm even stronger in my plan to see it as a process, and sure I'll make bad decisions on occasion and the key is just not being afraid of that or blowing it up into something it's not. For example, it's just a day I went 1000 calories over or did not get my workout in, not a failure or a sign I'm a bad person.
So if I think I've screwed up and been off plan and catch myself avoiding weighing, I can get up there and see (perhaps) I'm up 5 lbs and see that as just something to correct, not anything more significant. Thinking of it the way you do would be really counterproductive for me, IMO.
But of course we can guess at how these methods will work for others, but the crucial thing is to know your own psychology. That's how we learn to be successful.0 -
vivmom2014 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
Too often it's a spiral that people think if they engage in the behavior (overeating or, unfortunately, eating certain foods) they are losers or failures or bad or naughty (ugh) or even disgusting, and that causes shame which they fill by eating more (since they already blew it or suck anyway, etc.).
This is also why I get really uncomfortable with approaches to food where people try to convince themselves that the food is bad or disgusting, as then if they eat it they will be. But of course that only changes whether they desire it in the short-term and just plays into the horrible feelings about themselves. (I also think this echoes some really distorted ideas about sexuality people can learn, and how they then get to be self-hating and ashamed of their own natural desires.)
That's also why I think taking the focus away from the problem being with the person (an addict) and their weakness and more on a problem that needs to be solved--here is a habit I must break, this is how it will be temporarily tough, here are strategies to try--are better than telling yourself you lack the power to manage around certain foods or that there's something wrong or flawed in you.
For the record, I said POSITIVE self talk.
I know--my point was that rather than positive self talk, it might be the absence of negative self talk. Instead of adding the one (although I'm all for that too), subtracting the other as something very helpful to do.
Ah, okay.
I have seen great strides in a loved one who suffers from a profound guilt problem to say, immediately upon having negative thoughts, "I reject that thought." Is that positive self talk or the absence of negative? Hmmm. Whatever it is, it has really empowered this person to make some healthy mental shifts. Which is the end goal.
I'd call that the absence of negative, and I really like that.0 -
Great post, thank you!0
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PeachyCarol wrote: »
mentally dependent could
Could.
An itchy mole could be skin cancer.
The distinction? Skin cancer is a clinical diagnosis that is made by a trained professional based on a number of symptoms, not just one.
So is addiction.
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Good post OP. And for all of the arguments we have in other threads, I am rather surprised there isn't more discussion or studies for the contrary.
Thanks. There aren't studies to the contrary [posted because they don't exist. The only findings linking physical addiction and food as a substance are in rats. There's nothing on humans, as the 2014 research review pointed out.
For all that people say that sugar addiction or carb addiction has been "proven", it hasn't.
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kommodevaran wrote: »I don't think I agree with any of you. Regarding and treating the problem as an addiction helped me. Identifying and understanding the nature of trigger foods and the way the affect me is important. Avoiding them as much as possible is good for me.
We need to know what we are talking about. Maybe it isn't the fat, or the sugar, or the responses in the body. Maybe it's the taste. The hyperpalatable foods. The man-made foods. Those that taste more and nourish less. Addiction to certain foods really do have some traits with drug addictions, but not all, in common. The consequences will be different, too. Nobody will sell their grandmother for a cupcake - you can get cupcakes everywhere, either free, or for a few cents. But you will gain weight, and you may destroy your health. I was malnourished and have suffered some permanent damage that I'm too ashamed to even talk about anonymously.
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
I would overeat, I would eat until there was nothing left, I would buy more, I would pass up breakfast, lunch and dinner, I would hide and avoid company so I could eat more, I would spread out my purchases and buy random stuff with it because I was ashamed. Is that addiction, or compulsion, or just a bad habit? Emotional eating? Lack of willpower? Don't know. I don't know if it's important what you call it, but the way you treat it, is important. I can handle five minutes of temptation in the checkout-line, but 24/7 in my house, I can not.
I like the taste of hyperpalatable foods - obviously. I like it too much. Ordinary food tasted like nothing, because my tastebuds were conditioned to the strong flavors of hyperpalatable food. The only alternative used to be the opposite - diet food, hypopalatable food. I would overeat that too, though, trying to find satisfaction. But then I decided that fat wasn't dangerous or fattening - eureka! I just needed to eat food I like that I can eat to satiety. As long as I choose real food (and everybody knows what that means, we just like to argue for the argument's sake), I can eat what I like, and how much I like. Because my appetite will guide me to what I need, and satiety kicks in when I have had enough nutrients. I didn't realise this until this spring. I'm 45 now. There is still a lot to learn.
Ask yourself or anyone else, "why do you eat"? The rational answer is "to fuel and restore my body". The irrational answer is "because it tastes good and I'm hungry". You can want to be rational, but lasting motivation depends on the irrational parts of the brain cooperating. Taste trumps health 9 out of 10 times. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to choose between health and taste?
Check out Mark Schatzker's new book, "The Dorito Effect", where he describes how hyperpalatable foods have become more and more tasty, and ordinary food more and more bland, leading us to overeat.
You sound like one of the exceptions. For the record, you are agreeing with some of us. We're not discounting the possibility of Eating Addiction existing for a subset of people, as outlined and defined in the 2014 research review.
What you're describing sounds close, though I tend to think some of your thoughts on hyperpalatable foods had more to do with conditioned responses and behavioral entrenchment of addictive patterns than the fact that it's a bad food vs. good food dichotomy for you.
Regardless, you've found a way out for you. That's fantastic.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
This was your personal experience, and I'd say this makes you an outlier. Most people who quit nicotine do experience withdrawal symptoms. Depending on the level of use, there can be headaches, nausea, dizziness, perspiration, loss of appetite, shaking, brain fog and a myriad of other potential symptoms. Quitting smoking was easier for you than it was for others, but that doesn't mean that nicotine is easy to quit for everyone. For most people, it's extraordinarily difficult, and the relapse rate is very high.
When it comes to food, it can't really be compared. People can't be asked to quit eating. Food is necessary to life. It may be possible to ask them to stop eating certain types of food, but it's actually much healthier to help people develop a healthy relationship with food so that avoidance isn't necessary in the first place.
And as far as hyperpalatable vs. whole foods? I know people who are obese and eat steak and potatoes to stay that way. They aren't sweets eaters or store bought food eaters at all. They're farmers. They claim they can't help eating mass quantities of steak. Is that an addiction? I'd argue no, in the same way I'd argue that a person isn't addiction to a cupcake or Doritos. It's never the food.
Maybe I am a special snowflake I react atypically to a lot of stuff. Sugar never gives me that high/energy boost that I read about. It tastes good, but I get tired immidiately, it often makes me (want to) lie down, and sleep. I don't feel relaxed and sociable from alcohol, it doesn't even make it easier to sleep, I just get dizzy and feel heavy, my memory fails and my mind slows down. I don't like it, it makes me feel more insecure around others. The only "normal" reaction I've had with alcohol, was with way too much once or twice when I was young, when I blacked out, did things I didn't want to, and passed out. Coffee has no effect on me either. I will get a high from pethidine, though, and I am energized and giggly when I wake from general anesthesia. I consumed around 20 cigarettes a day, for 10-12 years. I have to accept thet quitting can be painful for others, but for me it was just a bad habit.
You are an outlier if you had no nicotine withdrawal symptoms, I am too - but in the opposite direction. Most nicotine physical withdrawal symptoms are tolerable, but I almost needed to be hospitalized when I attempted to quit smoking cold turkey. I'm currently on the patch and it's a breeze in comparison. I guess the jump from 2+ packs a day to 0 is just too steep to be done in one step.
Speaking of smoking. The closest I may meet in the middle in terms of classifying food as an addiction is the cravings you get for a cigarettes at certain times, like after a meal or with coffee..etc. Although caused by quitting smoking, I don't consider them a direct result of this addiction, but a bunch of habitual associations a person has made throughout their smoking years. So in that sense, food "addiction" can have similar representations to real addictions, but that doesn't make it one. Regarding it as such leads to creating a disease model rather than a responsibility model.
I actually found the habitual associations with smoking harder to get past than the nicotine bit, because the nicotine cleared my system and was done and over with after a certain time. The habit/behavioral entrenchment was SO ingrained, that it took much, much longer to get past.
I actually think this is a very useful parallel to my initial post, because it does speak to the nature of how pervasive and problematic something can be (thus validating it) while still showing it's not an addiction.
I was NOT addicted to having something in my hands or doing a certain particular thing at a certain time, but they were behaviors I had developed. I had become conditioned to the responses of pleasure associated with those behaviors, thus reinforcing them. You put that whole package together, and you've got a bad habit, not necessarily an addiction.
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vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
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My interpretation of some of the results is that trying to do the typical addiction treatment of total, lifelong withdrawal of substance might be the worst thing someone can do with a food they think is addictive. The dopamine lighting up that people call drug like tends to be highest for novel stimulus, so denying yourself for extended times is liable to make food cravings worse, not better.vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
Similarly, avoid any turning food into a reward kind of experience. Decoupling the two makes food only desirable as food, not as a way of capturing certain feelings.
I agree with this. There's all sorts of information about willpower being limited, and I understand how cutting it out entirely seems like an "easy" solution to not have to waste willpower required for moderation (just the willpower to not buy something). But, while abstinence is 100% effective in theory, it's usually a bad long term solution (true for birth control as well). It seems to me, that when you abstain from something but then are exposed later, it's much harder to avoid it in that situation, so you breakdown and have it, but not in moderation at all.
Um, I feel like I'm not explaining that well. For example, people will often say, I don't need cake; I will just not eat cake, make it, or have it in the house. It is then often pointed out and asked if that person will avoid all future celebrations that may serve cake (weddings, birthdays, etc), and honestly I can't remember the typical answer when people do answer. But, because you do only have so much willpower, it's harder to avoid in those cases. Willpower can be hard, but flexing it, using it, and creating habits seems to be more useful. When it's a habit to only take and eat a single portion, it's much easier to regulate the amount you eat when exposed to it in the future.
This was me, but it wasn't only about willpower. It was also tied to how I felt I should deal with this foods. They weren't something I was "allowed" to be eating because I was already fat. Those darned tapes of my mother's voice and all that noise about making food have gold stars and red x's over it in my head.
Once I got over all that, willpower wasn't hard for me, I found it was all tied together. Yes, I like sweets, but without the shame of... Carol shouldn't be eating this because Carol is fat... Carol was able to eat a regular portion. Because Carol was allowing herself to have more the next day, and the day after that and so on.
I wasn't on a cycle of restrict... EAT ALL THE COOKIES BECAUSE YOU'RE NEVER EATING THEM AGAIN OMG!!!!!!... restrict, you fat so-and-so... EAT ALL THE CHEESE!!!!... lather, rinse, repeat.
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PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
This is really key: if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
Commitment to improving = having some semblance of self-acceptance and self-love. Getting there is so difficult when people don't have a very high opinion of themselves.
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vivmom2014 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
This is really key: if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
Commitment to improving = having some semblance of self-acceptance and self-love. Getting there is so difficult when people don't have a very high opinion of themselves.
I don't know that you necessarily need a high opinion of yourself. I don't have one, but it's gotten better through this process. What I had was motivation, and it gave me the commitment to improve. I did value myself enough to not want to feel as awful as I felt, so I guess there is that.
There is something to be said, though, for challenging your assumptions. For every person out there who thinks that they have issues and that the food is the problem, I can guarantee them that working through the issues to a point of reconciling them will be a very rewarding and empowering experience.
I was formerly a person who swore up down left and right she had physical reactions and everything to sugar. Yeah, um, and they were awful too.
Yeah, no. I have no physical problems eating sugar. I hope to have some cookies tonight.
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PeachyCarol wrote: »
I did value myself enough to not want to feel as awful as I felt, so I guess there is that.
[/quote]/snip
Bingo. Exactly. (Forget "high opinion" and sub "healthy self worth")
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PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.0 -
vivmom2014 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
I think the reverse of this is the key--not beating yourself up, not seeing your food decisions as about who you are as a person, but simply about meeting a goal and being more or less on track (without demanding any kind of perfection and while including in there that pleasure is a totally valid consideration).
Too often it's a spiral that people think if they engage in the behavior (overeating or, unfortunately, eating certain foods) they are losers or failures or bad or naughty (ugh) or even disgusting, and that causes shame which they fill by eating more (since they already blew it or suck anyway, etc.).
This is also why I get really uncomfortable with approaches to food where people try to convince themselves that the food is bad or disgusting, as then if they eat it they will be. But of course that only changes whether they desire it in the short-term and just plays into the horrible feelings about themselves. (I also think this echoes some really distorted ideas about sexuality people can learn, and how they then get to be self-hating and ashamed of their own natural desires.)
That's also why I think taking the focus away from the problem being with the person (an addict) and their weakness and more on a problem that needs to be solved--here is a habit I must break, this is how it will be temporarily tough, here are strategies to try--are better than telling yourself you lack the power to manage around certain foods or that there's something wrong or flawed in you.
For the record, I said POSITIVE self talk.
I know--my point was that rather than positive self talk, it might be the absence of negative self talk. Instead of adding the one (although I'm all for that too), subtracting the other as something very helpful to do.
Ah, okay.
I have seen great strides in a loved one who suffers from a profound guilt problem to say, immediately upon having negative thoughts, "I reject that thought." Is that positive self talk or the absence of negative? Hmmm. Whatever it is, it has really empowered this person to make some healthy mental shifts. Which is the end goal.I'd call that the absence of negative, and I really like that.
Me too!
Has your loved one seen Louise Hay's DVD "You can heal your life"?0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.
It's not invalidating someone's experience to help them realize that they aren't addicted to food. It's validating to acknowledge that you are aware they have a problem and need help, and that you are willing to help them. Just because someone has labeled their problem of overeating with the wrong label - addiction - doesn't mean you just allow that label to stick and address the problem from that angle, because that's not helpful. Assisting the person in finding the reason for overeating is helpful.
And no, most people addicted to heroin, nicotine and alcohol do not quit on their own.0 -
Do you think it's helpful to validate an experience that all evidence shows couldn't be true? What's generally helpful, in my experience, is for people to be grounded in reality.kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
One of my purposes in starting this thread was to empower people. I think that how you view yourself is powerful. If you believe you can get control over your food, you'll get there, even if you're going to fake your way to doing it.
I tend to think that rushing to label food as having undue influence on your willingness to "cave" and over-consume it or mindlessly consume it puts you in the role of a victim, and that it's counterproductive to weight loss success.
Empowerment is being in charge of your choices. Are you an addict, or just a person with a bad habit who is going to do something about it?
Some outliers will truly have a real issue and need professional help, but for the most part, I firmly believe that most people have it within themselves to overcome their issues with problematic food behavior if they believe their commitment to improving is more important than the food.
The bolded is also true for people addicted to heroin, nicotine, and alcohol - the majority of addicts quit on their own.
But yes, feeling powerless is...disempowering. Being invalidated can also be disempowering. I prefer to not invalidate someone's experience because I don't think that's helpful.0
This discussion has been closed.
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