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Food Addiction - A Different Perspective
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Very cute, with the THINKING. Lol.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Disagree. It is the food. I quit the white pasta because if I ate it, I craved more. NB: I didn't eat more. I craved more.PeachyCarol wrote: »As far as I know, no one has ever started a "Help!!! I crave _________" thread, so bringing up the issue of craving, or appealing to it in the context of this thread is sort of besides the point.
No one argues that people get urges for different foods at different times, and most people don't tend to find them problematic, either. I certainly never thought my pregnancy cravings were problems. Unless you count craving cantaloupe in the dead of winter a problem. Because it was. Couldn't find it anywhere.
Again, to reiterate, the point is science does not support the notion that IN HUMANS the substance is the problem. The problem is the behavior behind the substance. The key to breaking the bad behavior pattern with the substance is understanding what lead to it.
Unfortunately for a lot of people who think the problem is the food itself, they have to do a lot of hard thinking to analyze WHY their eating is out of control to begin to address it.
The craving was annoying, so I quit it. Plus, whole wheat pasta is healthier, so good on that.
The craving wouldn't go away until I'd had a good night's sleep. It was when I began reading here that I found others had the same issue.
It's a thing. It's real. It might not happen to everyone, but it happens.
If this is unrelated to the whole "You're not addicted!", though, I'll be happy to drop it.
You can disagree until the cows come home, but the scientific EVIDENCE does not support your FEELINGS.
White pasta and whole wheat pasta have the same blood sugar impact. (GI/GL)
But yes, this is unrelated, unless you are willing to admit that you might have had some possible hedonic response to the white pasta which triggered an emotional connection or something deeper, it's probably best to drop it. As I said, this requires THINKING.
I don't think I have an emotional connection to pasta, lol. No. I just noticed that when I had it, I wanted more. All day. I didn't look for it. I noticed it after it happened.
Since I didn't eat more, I'll vote No on hedonistic behavior, too.
As I said, I didn't overeat the pasta. I craved it. Others have had the same response. We crave it only if we eat it, though. Not before. Comes after. Do you THINK there might be some connection there? Even if you cannot google...I mean "research" it and find a name for it...when you THINK, do you notice a connection?
Hedonic response isn't hedonistic behavior.
Google it. It's about enjoying taste or texture or some other sensory input.
I capitalized the word thinking to stress the importance of it in the process, not to mock you.
If you do not wish to delve further into your behavior, then yes, you're derailing the thread.
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I think it's relevant. I think it's actually at the core of this. Cravings and addictions.Sometimes a craving really is a craving. One day the science will support it. They will give it a name. Then people who don't believe it will be able to google it...or as so many people like to call it, "research" it...and will be able to believe it.
The science supporting the existence of cravings has been in existence for a very long time. But that's not what this thread is addressing.
You seem interested in that topic, so I'd suggest googling it since you don't seem to believe that there are some actual researchers commenting in this thread. The information you get via google may not be robust, but it should be adequate to get you started on your learning journey.
When I want to learn about something, I am not limited to googling. I don't even consider googling something to be research.
Are you aware of the Google Scholar research data base?
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I don't think I am derailing. The cravings go hand-in-hand with the addiction.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Very cute, with the THINKING. Lol.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Disagree. It is the food. I quit the white pasta because if I ate it, I craved more. NB: I didn't eat more. I craved more.PeachyCarol wrote: »As far as I know, no one has ever started a "Help!!! I crave _________" thread, so bringing up the issue of craving, or appealing to it in the context of this thread is sort of besides the point.
No one argues that people get urges for different foods at different times, and most people don't tend to find them problematic, either. I certainly never thought my pregnancy cravings were problems. Unless you count craving cantaloupe in the dead of winter a problem. Because it was. Couldn't find it anywhere.
Again, to reiterate, the point is science does not support the notion that IN HUMANS the substance is the problem. The problem is the behavior behind the substance. The key to breaking the bad behavior pattern with the substance is understanding what lead to it.
Unfortunately for a lot of people who think the problem is the food itself, they have to do a lot of hard thinking to analyze WHY their eating is out of control to begin to address it.
The craving was annoying, so I quit it. Plus, whole wheat pasta is healthier, so good on that.
The craving wouldn't go away until I'd had a good night's sleep. It was when I began reading here that I found others had the same issue.
It's a thing. It's real. It might not happen to everyone, but it happens.
If this is unrelated to the whole "You're not addicted!", though, I'll be happy to drop it.
You can disagree until the cows come home, but the scientific EVIDENCE does not support your FEELINGS.
White pasta and whole wheat pasta have the same blood sugar impact. (GI/GL)
But yes, this is unrelated, unless you are willing to admit that you might have had some possible hedonic response to the white pasta which triggered an emotional connection or something deeper, it's probably best to drop it. As I said, this requires THINKING.
I don't think I have an emotional connection to pasta, lol. No. I just noticed that when I had it, I wanted more. All day. I didn't look for it. I noticed it after it happened.
Since I didn't eat more, I'll vote No on hedonistic behavior, too.
As I said, I didn't overeat the pasta. I craved it. Others have had the same response. We crave it only if we eat it, though. Not before. Comes after. Do you THINK there might be some connection there? Even if you cannot google...I mean "research" it and find a name for it...when you THINK, do you notice a connection?
Hedonic response isn't hedonistic behavior.
Google it. It's about enjoying taste or texture or some other sensory input.
I capitalized the word thinking to stress the importance of it in the process, not to mock you.
If you do not wish to delve further into your behavior, then yes, you're derailing the thread.
You aren't suggesting that the cravings aren't real, are you? I'm sure you aren't.
So, when you connect the craving to having eaten a food and you THINK about it, do you see a connection?
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Personally and professionally, I can accept the label of "eating addiction" rather than "food addiction". I still believe far too many people (frankly, the majority of those claiming to be food "addicts") apply the "addiction" label to themselves when they're really just talking about the fact that they eat too much and need to stop it. But within that larger group is the much smaller subset of folks who have always left me feeling concerned, because when they are able to articulate their experiences, it sure as hell sounds like addiction to me.
Highlights from the article:
• Evidence for addiction to specific macronutrients is lacking in humans.
• “Eating addiction” describes a behavioral addiction.
• An “eating addiction” is not necessarily associated with obesity.
• Obesity prevention strategies should focus on “eating addiction”.
• Consider “eating addiction” as a disorder in DSM-5 “Non-Substance-Related Disorders”.
I think eating addiction is probably a better description. though, I would say lack of macronutrients is not always the case
That's not what is being said here - what is being said is that there is a lack of evidence that there is an addiction to a specific macronutrient - as when people say they are addicted to carbohydrates (re:sugar), or fat.
oh, yup, I misread thatthorsmom01 wrote: »Great post ! I think its definitely a behavioral issue and definitely isn't the same as a heroin addict . a lot of people reach for excuses to justify their behavior .
Exactly.
And since the topic of craving is being unfortunately being forced into this discussion. Cravings are often a symptom of the disease of addiction, but because one has a craving does not make them an addict. Additionally, I'd say with food the craving is often for the emotional and behavior component of what that food means or represents.
Example: Whenever I go apple picking, I crave cider donuts. I crave them because they are delicious, but also because they are heavily linked with the experience of apple picking with my family. The craving in and of itself does not mean I am addicted in any sense of the word.
I think we have to realize that different words mean different things to different people and that we rarely use the same words with the same understanding as the other person we are speaking to.
humans speak frequently figuratively and connotatively
if I say I am craving a cider donut, I probably don't mean I will go to extreme measures to get but I have a strong desire for it
but at the same time, cravings can be completely consuming. an addict might say he is craving his fix, but it's not the same as me saying I crave a donut. and I certainly didn't mean it the same either.
Yes, exactly.
I think a lot of the time when people say they are "addicted" and ask for advice what they are actually saying is they feel powerless or do not know how to control themselves in the face of an intense desire, compulsion or craving to eat.
Do they really need to know why that is to be successful in reprogramming detrimental behaviour? Sure it could be useful but what is far more valuable, and far more lacking on these forums, is actual methods and strategies to implement the how irrespective of the why apart from advice like trying self control or willpower which I suspect most people have considered before asking for advice...
Unfortunately, there might not be a one-size fits all solution here.
There are likely many individualized reasons why people are engaged in such behaviors, and the real way to get to an effective coping strategy likely deals with uncovering the cause of the problem in the first place.
That's why I think coming up with a list of suggestions in this thread isn't likely going to happen.
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I don't think I am derailing. The cravings go hand-in-hand with the addiction.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Very cute, with the THINKING. Lol.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Disagree. It is the food. I quit the white pasta because if I ate it, I craved more. NB: I didn't eat more. I craved more.PeachyCarol wrote: »As far as I know, no one has ever started a "Help!!! I crave _________" thread, so bringing up the issue of craving, or appealing to it in the context of this thread is sort of besides the point.
No one argues that people get urges for different foods at different times, and most people don't tend to find them problematic, either. I certainly never thought my pregnancy cravings were problems. Unless you count craving cantaloupe in the dead of winter a problem. Because it was. Couldn't find it anywhere.
Again, to reiterate, the point is science does not support the notion that IN HUMANS the substance is the problem. The problem is the behavior behind the substance. The key to breaking the bad behavior pattern with the substance is understanding what lead to it.
Unfortunately for a lot of people who think the problem is the food itself, they have to do a lot of hard thinking to analyze WHY their eating is out of control to begin to address it.
The craving was annoying, so I quit it. Plus, whole wheat pasta is healthier, so good on that.
The craving wouldn't go away until I'd had a good night's sleep. It was when I began reading here that I found others had the same issue.
It's a thing. It's real. It might not happen to everyone, but it happens.
If this is unrelated to the whole "You're not addicted!", though, I'll be happy to drop it.
You can disagree until the cows come home, but the scientific EVIDENCE does not support your FEELINGS.
White pasta and whole wheat pasta have the same blood sugar impact. (GI/GL)
But yes, this is unrelated, unless you are willing to admit that you might have had some possible hedonic response to the white pasta which triggered an emotional connection or something deeper, it's probably best to drop it. As I said, this requires THINKING.
I don't think I have an emotional connection to pasta, lol. No. I just noticed that when I had it, I wanted more. All day. I didn't look for it. I noticed it after it happened.
Since I didn't eat more, I'll vote No on hedonistic behavior, too.
As I said, I didn't overeat the pasta. I craved it. Others have had the same response. We crave it only if we eat it, though. Not before. Comes after. Do you THINK there might be some connection there? Even if you cannot google...I mean "research" it and find a name for it...when you THINK, do you notice a connection?
Hedonic response isn't hedonistic behavior.
Google it. It's about enjoying taste or texture or some other sensory input.
I capitalized the word thinking to stress the importance of it in the process, not to mock you.
If you do not wish to delve further into your behavior, then yes, you're derailing the thread.
You aren't suggesting that the cravings aren't real, are you? I'm sure you aren't.
So, when you connect the craving to having eaten a food and you THINK about it, do you see a connection?
There is no addiction to a food substance. It does not exist.
I said I was not mocking you, please stop mocking me.
I was stressing the importance of thinking as part of the process of digging to the root of behavioral issues.
If you want to discuss the topic at hand, since you keep asserting that addiction to substance exists, you should provide more than your "craving" for evidence.
Ample proof has been shown here that no such scientific support for any claims of substantive addiction to any food exist in humans.
Craving =/= addiction.
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kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »My position is that whether or not a person is actually addicted is not especially relevant. What's important is how are they going to manage their relationship with that food. If they feel that they are addicted, something's not working, and something needs to change. That change may take different forms depending on the person and where they are in their journey. There were several good examples in the OP:The second thing to do might be to look a little further to see if there's a reason the cycle of behavior became entrenched in the first place. Were you eating in response to emotional/mood triggers and then feeling remorse after indulging? Did you find yourself eating because you were stressed or mildly depressed (serious depression should be handled professionally), or bored?
Well, if you keep digging for answers, that's the first step to finding solutions
Exercise is a great stress reliever and good for a case of feeling down. Some people like meditative hobbies like coloring or knitting helpful or woodworking... or actual meditation. Pampering activities like long showers or luxurious baths are good for both stress and mild cases of the blues. Replace the bad habit you've formed with food with a new habit in response to your emotional catalyst.
I'll share my personal experience. What worked for me might not work for you. If you have an extreme case, you might need something like cognitive behavioral therapy.
Personally, I just needed time. Time away from the foods I had trouble with and time to reframe my thinking. Once my head was on straight, and I stopped feeling guilt surrounding my consumption of food, I was ready to eat what used to be problematic food (ice cream, brownies, cheese) again. I no longer consider myself "addicted" and I can eat these things in moderation. I also incorporated exercise into my life and find it's an excellent stress reliever!
When a person posts that they are addicted and need help, giving information like in the OP is useful, while saying "No you're not" is not.
Many people who claim an addiction have a certain mindset. They feel powerless. Sometimes what the person needs to do is realize that this is not the case; they do have power over what goes into their mouth. But they have to be willing to put in the effort to regain that control. It's not true for everyone, but sometimes taking that initial ownership can be a step in the right direction.
I absolutely agree that people do have power over what goes into their mouths and think 12 step programs do many people a disservice with their notion of powerlessness over addiction.
Have you ever been to a 12 step program before? Or, are you just jumping to an assumption? I ask this with the sincere intent of trying to find out where you are coming from.
Bottom line: food and drugs are not the same. You can't be physically addicted to food but you can be physically addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Powerlessness over addiction is not a "notion," but very real. If you go into any room of recovery, you will learn this.
If you are truly addicted to something you cannot just stop because it is a physical addiction first, then a spiritual/emotional one next. Food does not cause physical addictions, though I believe our mind can convince us otherwise.
Yes, I have been to many 12 step meetings (AA, NA, OA, and Al Anon), in various locations in three different states, but the vast majority were to support friends, as I didn't find the powerless model useful for me. I do have the power to decide what goes in my body.
I also went to I believe one each Smart Recovery and Rational Recovery meetings and found them much more useful. I didn't keep going because I stopped drinking. I also left my husband and moved to a yoga retreat center, so I made a variety of changes and cannot attribute one change to my success in transforming my relationship with alcohol.
That was in 2001. I can drink moderately now. I was having a glass of wine a few times per month until April when I started MFP again and now I'm not drinking due to not wanting the empty calories. I have a full bar and am not tempted by it.
However, I would never suggest to someone who is finding AA helpful that they too can drink in moderation, just as I would never suggest to someone who feels that they should avoid Pepsi or M&Ms that they can eat those in moderation. We don't need Pepsi and M&Ms any more than we need alcohol.
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The point at which claiming food addiction gets to me is when you are relating that to cocaine etc.
To watch someone come down off of an actual addiction and watch the physical part of it...the vomiting the shakes the pain they are in....that's my issue.
Food addiction in itself...no.
Eating addiction...perhaps....but only due to the ability to allow for sex and gambling addictions.
ETA: good post OP.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »So how would we describe what people feel? A compulsion? Loss of control? What words could we give to people who say, "Help, I'm addicted to sugar!" to help them? Instead of just telling them, no, you're not addicted?
I've been trying "what do you mean by that? are there specific times and situations when you tend to overeat or feel out of control?"
What I think it is is habit, which can be very powerful and feel like a compulsion. But habits can be broken or replaced.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »Personally and professionally, I can accept the label of "eating addiction" rather than "food addiction". I still believe far too many people (frankly, the majority of those claiming to be food "addicts") apply the "addiction" label to themselves when they're really just talking about the fact that they eat too much and need to stop it. But within that larger group is the much smaller subset of folks who have always left me feeling concerned, because when they are able to articulate their experiences, it sure as hell sounds like addiction to me.
Highlights from the article:
• Evidence for addiction to specific macronutrients is lacking in humans.
• “Eating addiction” describes a behavioral addiction.
• An “eating addiction” is not necessarily associated with obesity.
• Obesity prevention strategies should focus on “eating addiction”.
• Consider “eating addiction” as a disorder in DSM-5 “Non-Substance-Related Disorders”.
I think eating addiction is probably a better description. though, I would say lack of macronutrients is not always the case
That's not what is being said here - what is being said is that there is a lack of evidence that there is an addiction to a specific macronutrient - as when people say they are addicted to carbohydrates (re:sugar), or fat.
oh, yup, I misread thatthorsmom01 wrote: »Great post ! I think its definitely a behavioral issue and definitely isn't the same as a heroin addict . a lot of people reach for excuses to justify their behavior .
Exactly.
And since the topic of craving is being unfortunately being forced into this discussion. Cravings are often a symptom of the disease of addiction, but because one has a craving does not make them an addict. Additionally, I'd say with food the craving is often for the emotional and behavior component of what that food means or represents.
Example: Whenever I go apple picking, I crave cider donuts. I crave them because they are delicious, but also because they are heavily linked with the experience of apple picking with my family. The craving in and of itself does not mean I am addicted in any sense of the word.
I think we have to realize that different words mean different things to different people and that we rarely use the same words with the same understanding as the other person we are speaking to.
humans speak frequently figuratively and connotatively
if I say I am craving a cider donut, I probably don't mean I will go to extreme measures to get but I have a strong desire for it
but at the same time, cravings can be completely consuming. an addict might say he is craving his fix, but it's not the same as me saying I crave a donut. and I certainly didn't mean it the same either.
Yes, exactly.
I think a lot of the time when people say they are "addicted" and ask for advice what they are actually saying is they feel powerless or do not know how to control themselves in the face of an intense desire, compulsion or craving to eat.
Do they really need to know why that is to be successful in reprogramming detrimental behaviour? Sure it could be useful but what is far more valuable, and far more lacking on these forums, is actual methods and strategies to implement the how irrespective of the why apart from advice like trying self control or willpower which I suspect most people have considered before asking for advice...
Unfortunately, there might not be a one-size fits all solution here.
There are likely many individualized reasons why people are engaged in such behaviors, and the real way to get to an effective coping strategy likely deals with uncovering the cause of the problem in the first place.
That's why I think coming up with a list of suggestions in this thread isn't likely going to happen.
Yes, I think you are right that there is no one size fits all solution and getting a person to reflect on the root causes of their issues can help move them forwards.
That said, knowing something intellectually isn't worth all that much if you can't translate it into tangible action and as such some discussion on practical strategies (depending on the context of course) is worth all the knowing in the world.
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Sometimes a craving really is a craving. One day the science will support it. They will give it a name. Then people who don't believe it will be able to google it...or as so many people like to call it, "research" it...and will be able to believe it.
People don't question that cravings exist (I suspect most of us have experienced them). We question that a craving means addiction.
Oddly enough, my issues with alcohol, which I think were addictive, weren't about cravings at all.0 -
When someone says they crave certain foods, others start in with the "You're not addicted!" thing.Sometimes a craving really is a craving. One day the science will support it. They will give it a name. Then people who don't believe it will be able to google it...or as so many people like to call it, "research" it...and will be able to believe it.
I'm not sure what the term 'craving' has to do with the topic at hand, which is whether or not food addiction exists. The two are completely separate.
Nope, never happens.
People say "I don't believe it's an addiction" when others post "I'm addicted to carbs" and get responses like "yes, carb addiction is worse than heroin addiction."0 -
sheldonklein wrote: »What difference does it make whether you label unhealthful eating behaviors an "addiction"? That's not a rhetorical question. You can't answer the "is it an addiction" question until you answer the "what difference does it make" question.
It makes a difference in terms of the intervention, plan or treatment that is recommended.
@shell1005 - how so? I've used the same techniques to manage food cravings that I've used for alcohol and other substances and addictive behaviors.
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jftr, powerless is only in regards to the problem.
once I identify what the problem is and the powerlessness over it, I can then recognize what I have power over.
if I am powerless over my alcohol consumption once I start, I have the power to decide not to put it in my body. and in 12 step programs you do so with mental retraining, dismissal of emotional blocks, accepting help when help is needed and standing on your own two feet when needed.
there are alcohol abusers and there are "real alcoholics" which are a different animal completely.
sorry, it's a thing that bothers me /end hijack0 -
I think this is such an excellent OP, as it really defines why 'addiction' doesn't fit when it comes to food and eating, and why there is so much more to eating disorders than people normally think.
I've said in other threads that overeating has much more to do with other problems in a person's life, and avoidance, than it does with addiction to any type of food. People tend to get angry when they want to claim they are addicted to food and someone tells them they aren't, but I think a lot of that stems from the fact that it can be very difficult to truly examine the reality of why one overeats, and try to examine the minutae of one's life for the painful parts of it that affect us years down the line.
For myself, as a teenager I had an ongoing problem with bulimia. I can't really think back to those years and tell anyone what I was thinking as I binged on multiple types of food and then forced myself to throw them back up, but I do know that years of abuse at the hands of a cruel stepfather and the lack of protection by a fully knowledgeable mother led up to it. My unhealthy relationship with food at that time had nothing to do with any food addiction; it had everything to do with enormous emotional and physical stress and pain my teenage self didn't know how to deal with.
Even today, I have struggled on and off with body dysmorphia because of that problem during my formative years. I've worked a lot to keep a healthy mind because I know what can happen if l lose touch with that.
Telling people they're addicted to food and that it's okay to keep on with that behavior is nothing more than enabling them, and giving them permission to continue the unhealthy behavior. Trying to find a better way to take that excuse away, and help them learn that the food is not the problem, is a step in the right direction.
No one here who supports the possibility of food addiction also enables. We don't say, "Yes, you are powerless, so continue to have unhealthy eating behaviors."0 -
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Justifiably? Whatever. People use different words. I'm able to deal with that.The problem with assuming that everyone is lazy is that when people say, "I can't lose weight!" and aren't lazy, but really do have a problem, they get missed.
I'd rather tell 1000 people who are making excuses that they should get checked out than tell one person who actually needs medical attention that they shouldn't seek it.
I disagree with this. Nothing comes for free - everything comes at the expense of something else. And distracting 999 people with something pointless to *maybe* help 1 person is bad social math and a waste of limited resources.
I personally don't care if people do or don't classify themselves as being addicted. But if they're going to come to a forum, claim they're addicted, and then NOT treat it like an addiction - yeah, they're justifiably going to get called on it.
I get that for some people, it is "important" to "call people out" online. If that's important to you, you have to do what you have to do.
It ain't me, babe. You or anybody else can label your condition or etc using whatever words you want, as far as I'm concerned.Social math that discourages a sick person from seeking medical care...not my kind of math.
That's the exact opposite of what I said.
In fact, sending people in to use resources they don't need is what will limit the ability of someone who actually needs help from getting it - it is *your* position that will cause more health problems, not mine.
Slightly off-topic, and I know this is a few pages back, but +1 To this last point. I am a type 1 diabetic who recently moved to a new area and had to switch my GP and my endocrinologist. My GP referred me to the ONE AND ONLY endocrinologist in town. Despite the fact that I have a chronic illness that requires regular endo visits and that I needed medication my GP wasn't comfortable prescribing (she wanted the endo to prescribe), I could not see the endocrinologist for six months. I asked at the appointment why it took so long to see me when it was kind of an emergency, and he said that his schedule is absolutely PACKED with people who make appointments themselves (no referral) to see if they have metabolism issues that make it impossible for them to lose weight. That's frustrating. I know that 90-95% of these appointments will result in the same advice that the person could get from MFP: log your calories, weigh your food, you're eating more than you think. If you do these things and there is still a problem, then get medical help. Which is what everyone on these boards suggests. I have never once seen someone tell another poster, "Absolutely never see a doctor for this."
On topic, good post, OP. I had issues with binge eating, even though my approach to weight loss did not restrict any certain foods. I had to look at my approach to food and the mindset I had, not the specific foods themselves. Still a work in progress, but if I binge at the movies, it's not because the popcorn had carbs or sugar. It's because of the emotional attachment I've always placed on being able to eat a certain way at the movies.0 -
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That's part of what this thread is meant to address (I think - Carol can correct me if I'm wrong about that). Simply over-applying the label of addiction to a very wide range of behaviors actually does a disservice to the people suffering because of those behaviors. Being willing to take a closer look at those behaviors and define them more accurately can lead to more effective strategies and interventions.
Out of curiosity (and because you seem to know what you are talking about mostly) if you came across someone on the forums who claimed to be addicted to food what kind of questions would you ask them to elicit what the root cause of their issues were?
In addition, do you think there is generally a more preferable way of presenting or approaching this information which influences behaviour better than other approaches or is it really a "it depends" question?
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kshama2001 wrote: »sheldonklein wrote: »What difference does it make whether you label unhealthful eating behaviors an "addiction"? That's not a rhetorical question. You can't answer the "is it an addiction" question until you answer the "what difference does it make" question.
It makes a difference in terms of the intervention, plan or treatment that is recommended.
@shell1005 - how so? I've used the same techniques to manage food cravings that I've used for alcohol and other substances and addictive behaviors.
Using core strategies across similar problems does not mean that the problems are the same animal. You can use some addiction-based strategies to help address cravings, but it doesn't mean a craving is the same thing as an addiction. You can use some anger management-based strategies to address over-reaction, but it doesn't mean that all over-reacting is the same thing as domestic violence. You can use cognitive-behavioral strategies to address self-defeating thought patterns, but it doesn't mean that all self-defeating thought patterns are the same thing as clinical depression.
That's part of what this thread is meant to address (I think - Carol can correct me if I'm wrong about that). Simply over-applying the label of addiction to a very wide range of behaviors actually does a disservice to the people suffering because of those behaviors. Being willing to take a closer look at those behaviors and define them more accurately can lead to more effective strategies and interventions.
Exactly.
I do think that some of what I struggled with in quitting alcohol was habit-based responses--for example, as I may have mentioned upthread, being in a situation where I used to always drink and having a shocking strong desire for a glass of wine, because of the associations. Those are similar to issues I had in changing my eating habits and having dealt with the one helped me have tools that make sense in dealing with the other.
But it did not mean that they were the same; they simply had some similarities in some ways.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
When someone says they crave certain foods, others start in with the "You're not addicted!" thing.Sometimes a craving really is a craving. One day the science will support it. They will give it a name. Then people who don't believe it will be able to google it...or as so many people like to call it, "research" it...and will be able to believe it.
I'm not sure what the term 'craving' has to do with the topic at hand, which is whether or not food addiction exists. The two are completely separate.
Nope, never happens.
People say "I don't believe it's an addiction" when others post "I'm addicted to carbs" and get responses like "yes, carb addiction is worse than heroin addiction."
The heck it doesn't. I will be linking you to it in the future.
I don't just think it happens, it totally happens. People even diagnose eating disorders because of it, lol.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »sheldonklein wrote: »What difference does it make whether you label unhealthful eating behaviors an "addiction"? That's not a rhetorical question. You can't answer the "is it an addiction" question until you answer the "what difference does it make" question.
It makes a difference in terms of the intervention, plan or treatment that is recommended.
@shell1005 - how so? I've used the same techniques to manage food cravings that I've used for alcohol and other substances and addictive behaviors.
Using core strategies across similar problems does not mean that the problems are the same animal. You can use some addiction-based strategies to help address cravings, but it doesn't mean a craving is the same thing as an addiction. You can use some anger management-based strategies to address over-reaction, but it doesn't mean that all over-reacting is the same thing as domestic violence. You can use cognitive-behavioral strategies to address self-defeating thought patterns, but it doesn't mean that all self-defeating thought patterns are the same thing as clinical depression.
That's part of what this thread is meant to address (I think - Carol can correct me if I'm wrong about that). Simply over-applying the label of addiction to a very wide range of behaviors actually does a disservice to the people suffering because of those behaviors. Being willing to take a closer look at those behaviors and define them more accurately can lead to more effective strategies and interventions.
0 -
It could be because these forums are a very poor tool for trying to suss out what might work in each idiosyncratic case and, really, because that isn't the purpose of these forums any more than the purpose is to try and work with someone's eating disorder via forum posts.Personally and professionally, I can accept the label of "eating addiction" rather than "food addiction". I still believe far too many people (frankly, the majority of those claiming to be food "addicts") apply the "addiction" label to themselves when they're really just talking about the fact that they eat too much and need to stop it. But within that larger group is the much smaller subset of folks who have always left me feeling concerned, because when they are able to articulate their experiences, it sure as hell sounds like addiction to me.
Highlights from the article:
• Evidence for addiction to specific macronutrients is lacking in humans.
• “Eating addiction” describes a behavioral addiction.
• An “eating addiction” is not necessarily associated with obesity.
• Obesity prevention strategies should focus on “eating addiction”.
• Consider “eating addiction” as a disorder in DSM-5 “Non-Substance-Related Disorders”.
I think eating addiction is probably a better description. though, I would say lack of macronutrients is not always the case
That's not what is being said here - what is being said is that there is a lack of evidence that there is an addiction to a specific macronutrient - as when people say they are addicted to carbohydrates (re:sugar), or fat.
oh, yup, I misread thatthorsmom01 wrote: »Great post ! I think its definitely a behavioral issue and definitely isn't the same as a heroin addict . a lot of people reach for excuses to justify their behavior .
Exactly.
And since the topic of craving is being unfortunately being forced into this discussion. Cravings are often a symptom of the disease of addiction, but because one has a craving does not make them an addict. Additionally, I'd say with food the craving is often for the emotional and behavior component of what that food means or represents.
Example: Whenever I go apple picking, I crave cider donuts. I crave them because they are delicious, but also because they are heavily linked with the experience of apple picking with my family. The craving in and of itself does not mean I am addicted in any sense of the word.
I think we have to realize that different words mean different things to different people and that we rarely use the same words with the same understanding as the other person we are speaking to.
humans speak frequently figuratively and connotatively
if I say I am craving a cider donut, I probably don't mean I will go to extreme measures to get but I have a strong desire for it
but at the same time, cravings can be completely consuming. an addict might say he is craving his fix, but it's not the same as me saying I crave a donut. and I certainly didn't mean it the same either.
Yes, exactly.
I think a lot of the time when people say they are "addicted" and ask for advice what they are actually saying is they feel powerless or do not know how to control themselves in the face of an intense desire, compulsion or craving to eat.
Do they really need to know why that is to be successful in reprogramming detrimental behaviour? Sure it could be useful but what is far more valuable, and far more lacking on these forums, is actual methods and strategies to implement the how irrespective of the why apart from advice like trying self control or willpower which I suspect most people have considered before asking for advice...
0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
It could be because these forums are a very poor tool for trying to suss out what might work in each idiosyncratic case and, really, because that isn't the purpose of these forums any more than the purpose is to try and work with someone's eating disorder via forum posts.Personally and professionally, I can accept the label of "eating addiction" rather than "food addiction". I still believe far too many people (frankly, the majority of those claiming to be food "addicts") apply the "addiction" label to themselves when they're really just talking about the fact that they eat too much and need to stop it. But within that larger group is the much smaller subset of folks who have always left me feeling concerned, because when they are able to articulate their experiences, it sure as hell sounds like addiction to me.
Highlights from the article:
• Evidence for addiction to specific macronutrients is lacking in humans.
• “Eating addiction” describes a behavioral addiction.
• An “eating addiction” is not necessarily associated with obesity.
• Obesity prevention strategies should focus on “eating addiction”.
• Consider “eating addiction” as a disorder in DSM-5 “Non-Substance-Related Disorders”.
I think eating addiction is probably a better description. though, I would say lack of macronutrients is not always the case
That's not what is being said here - what is being said is that there is a lack of evidence that there is an addiction to a specific macronutrient - as when people say they are addicted to carbohydrates (re:sugar), or fat.
oh, yup, I misread thatthorsmom01 wrote: »Great post ! I think its definitely a behavioral issue and definitely isn't the same as a heroin addict . a lot of people reach for excuses to justify their behavior .
Exactly.
And since the topic of craving is being unfortunately being forced into this discussion. Cravings are often a symptom of the disease of addiction, but because one has a craving does not make them an addict. Additionally, I'd say with food the craving is often for the emotional and behavior component of what that food means or represents.
Example: Whenever I go apple picking, I crave cider donuts. I crave them because they are delicious, but also because they are heavily linked with the experience of apple picking with my family. The craving in and of itself does not mean I am addicted in any sense of the word.
I think we have to realize that different words mean different things to different people and that we rarely use the same words with the same understanding as the other person we are speaking to.
humans speak frequently figuratively and connotatively
if I say I am craving a cider donut, I probably don't mean I will go to extreme measures to get but I have a strong desire for it
but at the same time, cravings can be completely consuming. an addict might say he is craving his fix, but it's not the same as me saying I crave a donut. and I certainly didn't mean it the same either.
Yes, exactly.
I think a lot of the time when people say they are "addicted" and ask for advice what they are actually saying is they feel powerless or do not know how to control themselves in the face of an intense desire, compulsion or craving to eat.
Do they really need to know why that is to be successful in reprogramming detrimental behaviour? Sure it could be useful but what is far more valuable, and far more lacking on these forums, is actual methods and strategies to implement the how irrespective of the why apart from advice like trying self control or willpower which I suspect most people have considered before asking for advice...
Yes, this is what I am trying to figure out in my mind - is it actually worth bothering with and will it make any difference?
Forum posts for me are in the main about conversation and in matters such as this is talk just really cheap?0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »
I don't think I am derailing. The cravings go hand-in-hand with the addiction.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Very cute, with the THINKING. Lol.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Disagree. It is the food. I quit the white pasta because if I ate it, I craved more. NB: I didn't eat more. I craved more.PeachyCarol wrote: »As far as I know, no one has ever started a "Help!!! I crave _________" thread, so bringing up the issue of craving, or appealing to it in the context of this thread is sort of besides the point.
No one argues that people get urges for different foods at different times, and most people don't tend to find them problematic, either. I certainly never thought my pregnancy cravings were problems. Unless you count craving cantaloupe in the dead of winter a problem. Because it was. Couldn't find it anywhere.
Again, to reiterate, the point is science does not support the notion that IN HUMANS the substance is the problem. The problem is the behavior behind the substance. The key to breaking the bad behavior pattern with the substance is understanding what lead to it.
Unfortunately for a lot of people who think the problem is the food itself, they have to do a lot of hard thinking to analyze WHY their eating is out of control to begin to address it.
The craving was annoying, so I quit it. Plus, whole wheat pasta is healthier, so good on that.
The craving wouldn't go away until I'd had a good night's sleep. It was when I began reading here that I found others had the same issue.
It's a thing. It's real. It might not happen to everyone, but it happens.
If this is unrelated to the whole "You're not addicted!", though, I'll be happy to drop it.
You can disagree until the cows come home, but the scientific EVIDENCE does not support your FEELINGS.
White pasta and whole wheat pasta have the same blood sugar impact. (GI/GL)
But yes, this is unrelated, unless you are willing to admit that you might have had some possible hedonic response to the white pasta which triggered an emotional connection or something deeper, it's probably best to drop it. As I said, this requires THINKING.
I don't think I have an emotional connection to pasta, lol. No. I just noticed that when I had it, I wanted more. All day. I didn't look for it. I noticed it after it happened.
Since I didn't eat more, I'll vote No on hedonistic behavior, too.
As I said, I didn't overeat the pasta. I craved it. Others have had the same response. We crave it only if we eat it, though. Not before. Comes after. Do you THINK there might be some connection there? Even if you cannot google...I mean "research" it and find a name for it...when you THINK, do you notice a connection?
Hedonic response isn't hedonistic behavior.
Google it. It's about enjoying taste or texture or some other sensory input.
I capitalized the word thinking to stress the importance of it in the process, not to mock you.
If you do not wish to delve further into your behavior, then yes, you're derailing the thread.
You aren't suggesting that the cravings aren't real, are you? I'm sure you aren't.
So, when you connect the craving to having eaten a food and you THINK about it, do you see a connection?
There is no addiction to a food substance. It does not exist.
I said I was not mocking you, please stop mocking me.
I was stressing the importance of thinking as part of the process of digging to the root of behavioral issues.
If you want to discuss the topic at hand, since you keep asserting that addiction to substance exists, you should provide more than your "craving" for evidence.
Ample proof has been shown here that no such scientific support for any claims of substantive addiction to any food exist in humans.
Craving =/= addiction.
Were I to mock you, I'd do a much, much better job. It wouldn't even "require THINKING."
It seems that you are not going to address the possibility that people might have an actual problem and will continue to insist that they cannot possibly have any sort of physical response to food. If you "THINK" about it, one day you may find that at least some of these people do have a physical reaction. You might not believe it until others have figured it out and given it a name you can google, but one day, you'll find out that it exists.
Scientific minds consider possibilities, by the way. That's how they "THINK."
When you understand that people really do have a physical reaction that causes a craving, then you'll begin to have some idea how you might be able to say something nice and helpful...or give them the Brutal Truth, if you're a fan of brutality.
Until then, the only people who might be helped are people who are overeating because their emotions were tied up in food. And it's highly unlikely that even someone who is qualified to help would be able to do it online. So, all we can do is give some encouragement...or brutality, depending on what the person thinks is helpful. We aren't going to solve anyone's issues online.0 -
I don't think the talk is necessarily cheap, I just think it's exceptionally hard in this format to figure out what makes Person A eat the way she does and Person B eat the different way he does. That's the kind of thing that happens one on one with someone trained to sort out things like that. Hell, I think a therapist would have a hard time doing it via forum posts, without body language cues, tone of voice, facial expressions, etc.DeguelloTex wrote: »
It could be because these forums are a very poor tool for trying to suss out what might work in each idiosyncratic case and, really, because that isn't the purpose of these forums any more than the purpose is to try and work with someone's eating disorder via forum posts.Personally and professionally, I can accept the label of "eating addiction" rather than "food addiction". I still believe far too many people (frankly, the majority of those claiming to be food "addicts") apply the "addiction" label to themselves when they're really just talking about the fact that they eat too much and need to stop it. But within that larger group is the much smaller subset of folks who have always left me feeling concerned, because when they are able to articulate their experiences, it sure as hell sounds like addiction to me.
Highlights from the article:
• Evidence for addiction to specific macronutrients is lacking in humans.
• “Eating addiction” describes a behavioral addiction.
• An “eating addiction” is not necessarily associated with obesity.
• Obesity prevention strategies should focus on “eating addiction”.
• Consider “eating addiction” as a disorder in DSM-5 “Non-Substance-Related Disorders”.
I think eating addiction is probably a better description. though, I would say lack of macronutrients is not always the case
That's not what is being said here - what is being said is that there is a lack of evidence that there is an addiction to a specific macronutrient - as when people say they are addicted to carbohydrates (re:sugar), or fat.
oh, yup, I misread thatthorsmom01 wrote: »Great post ! I think its definitely a behavioral issue and definitely isn't the same as a heroin addict . a lot of people reach for excuses to justify their behavior .
Exactly.
And since the topic of craving is being unfortunately being forced into this discussion. Cravings are often a symptom of the disease of addiction, but because one has a craving does not make them an addict. Additionally, I'd say with food the craving is often for the emotional and behavior component of what that food means or represents.
Example: Whenever I go apple picking, I crave cider donuts. I crave them because they are delicious, but also because they are heavily linked with the experience of apple picking with my family. The craving in and of itself does not mean I am addicted in any sense of the word.
I think we have to realize that different words mean different things to different people and that we rarely use the same words with the same understanding as the other person we are speaking to.
humans speak frequently figuratively and connotatively
if I say I am craving a cider donut, I probably don't mean I will go to extreme measures to get but I have a strong desire for it
but at the same time, cravings can be completely consuming. an addict might say he is craving his fix, but it's not the same as me saying I crave a donut. and I certainly didn't mean it the same either.
Yes, exactly.
I think a lot of the time when people say they are "addicted" and ask for advice what they are actually saying is they feel powerless or do not know how to control themselves in the face of an intense desire, compulsion or craving to eat.
Do they really need to know why that is to be successful in reprogramming detrimental behaviour? Sure it could be useful but what is far more valuable, and far more lacking on these forums, is actual methods and strategies to implement the how irrespective of the why apart from advice like trying self control or willpower which I suspect most people have considered before asking for advice...
Yes, this is what I am trying to figure out in my mind - is it actually worth bothering with and will it make any difference?
Forum posts for me are in the main about conversation and in matters such as this is talk just really cheap?
0 -
You keep jumping from "may be the case" to "is the case"PeachyCarol wrote: »
I don't think I am derailing. The cravings go hand-in-hand with the addiction.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Very cute, with the THINKING. Lol.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Disagree. It is the food. I quit the white pasta because if I ate it, I craved more. NB: I didn't eat more. I craved more.PeachyCarol wrote: »As far as I know, no one has ever started a "Help!!! I crave _________" thread, so bringing up the issue of craving, or appealing to it in the context of this thread is sort of besides the point.
No one argues that people get urges for different foods at different times, and most people don't tend to find them problematic, either. I certainly never thought my pregnancy cravings were problems. Unless you count craving cantaloupe in the dead of winter a problem. Because it was. Couldn't find it anywhere.
Again, to reiterate, the point is science does not support the notion that IN HUMANS the substance is the problem. The problem is the behavior behind the substance. The key to breaking the bad behavior pattern with the substance is understanding what lead to it.
Unfortunately for a lot of people who think the problem is the food itself, they have to do a lot of hard thinking to analyze WHY their eating is out of control to begin to address it.
The craving was annoying, so I quit it. Plus, whole wheat pasta is healthier, so good on that.
The craving wouldn't go away until I'd had a good night's sleep. It was when I began reading here that I found others had the same issue.
It's a thing. It's real. It might not happen to everyone, but it happens.
If this is unrelated to the whole "You're not addicted!", though, I'll be happy to drop it.
You can disagree until the cows come home, but the scientific EVIDENCE does not support your FEELINGS.
White pasta and whole wheat pasta have the same blood sugar impact. (GI/GL)
But yes, this is unrelated, unless you are willing to admit that you might have had some possible hedonic response to the white pasta which triggered an emotional connection or something deeper, it's probably best to drop it. As I said, this requires THINKING.
I don't think I have an emotional connection to pasta, lol. No. I just noticed that when I had it, I wanted more. All day. I didn't look for it. I noticed it after it happened.
Since I didn't eat more, I'll vote No on hedonistic behavior, too.
As I said, I didn't overeat the pasta. I craved it. Others have had the same response. We crave it only if we eat it, though. Not before. Comes after. Do you THINK there might be some connection there? Even if you cannot google...I mean "research" it and find a name for it...when you THINK, do you notice a connection?
Hedonic response isn't hedonistic behavior.
Google it. It's about enjoying taste or texture or some other sensory input.
I capitalized the word thinking to stress the importance of it in the process, not to mock you.
If you do not wish to delve further into your behavior, then yes, you're derailing the thread.
You aren't suggesting that the cravings aren't real, are you? I'm sure you aren't.
So, when you connect the craving to having eaten a food and you THINK about it, do you see a connection?
There is no addiction to a food substance. It does not exist.
I said I was not mocking you, please stop mocking me.
I was stressing the importance of thinking as part of the process of digging to the root of behavioral issues.
If you want to discuss the topic at hand, since you keep asserting that addiction to substance exists, you should provide more than your "craving" for evidence.
Ample proof has been shown here that no such scientific support for any claims of substantive addiction to any food exist in humans.
Craving =/= addiction.
Were I to mock you, I'd do a much, much better job. It wouldn't even "require THINKING."
It seems that you are not going to address the possibility that people might have an actual problem and will continue to insist that they cannot possibly have any sort of physical response to food. If you "THINK" about it, one day you may find that at least some of these people do have a physical reaction. You might not believe it until others have figured it out and given it a name you can google, but one day, you'll find out that it exists.
Scientific minds consider possibilities, by the way. That's how they "THINK."
When you understand that people really do have a physical reaction that causes a craving, then you'll begin to have some idea how you might be able to say something nice and helpful...or give them the Brutal Truth, if you're a fan of brutality.
Until then, the only people who might be helped are people who are overeating because their emotions were tied up in food. And it's highly unlikely that even someone who is qualified to help would be able to do it online. So, all we can do is give some encouragement...or brutality, depending on what the person thinks is helpful. We aren't going to solve anyone's issues online.
Please, please stop trying to derail an awesome thread that's miraculously made it six pages.
0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
I don't think the talk is necessarily cheap, I just think it's exceptionally hard in this format to figure out what makes Person A eat the way she does and Person B eat the different way he does. That's the kind of thing that happens one on one with someone trained to sort out things like that. Hell, I think a therapist would have a hard time doing it via forum posts, without body language cues, tone of voice, facial expressions, etc.DeguelloTex wrote: »
It could be because these forums are a very poor tool for trying to suss out what might work in each idiosyncratic case and, really, because that isn't the purpose of these forums any more than the purpose is to try and work with someone's eating disorder via forum posts.Personally and professionally, I can accept the label of "eating addiction" rather than "food addiction". I still believe far too many people (frankly, the majority of those claiming to be food "addicts") apply the "addiction" label to themselves when they're really just talking about the fact that they eat too much and need to stop it. But within that larger group is the much smaller subset of folks who have always left me feeling concerned, because when they are able to articulate their experiences, it sure as hell sounds like addiction to me.
Highlights from the article:
• Evidence for addiction to specific macronutrients is lacking in humans.
• “Eating addiction” describes a behavioral addiction.
• An “eating addiction” is not necessarily associated with obesity.
• Obesity prevention strategies should focus on “eating addiction”.
• Consider “eating addiction” as a disorder in DSM-5 “Non-Substance-Related Disorders”.
I think eating addiction is probably a better description. though, I would say lack of macronutrients is not always the case
That's not what is being said here - what is being said is that there is a lack of evidence that there is an addiction to a specific macronutrient - as when people say they are addicted to carbohydrates (re:sugar), or fat.
oh, yup, I misread thatthorsmom01 wrote: »Great post ! I think its definitely a behavioral issue and definitely isn't the same as a heroin addict . a lot of people reach for excuses to justify their behavior .
Exactly.
And since the topic of craving is being unfortunately being forced into this discussion. Cravings are often a symptom of the disease of addiction, but because one has a craving does not make them an addict. Additionally, I'd say with food the craving is often for the emotional and behavior component of what that food means or represents.
Example: Whenever I go apple picking, I crave cider donuts. I crave them because they are delicious, but also because they are heavily linked with the experience of apple picking with my family. The craving in and of itself does not mean I am addicted in any sense of the word.
I think we have to realize that different words mean different things to different people and that we rarely use the same words with the same understanding as the other person we are speaking to.
humans speak frequently figuratively and connotatively
if I say I am craving a cider donut, I probably don't mean I will go to extreme measures to get but I have a strong desire for it
but at the same time, cravings can be completely consuming. an addict might say he is craving his fix, but it's not the same as me saying I crave a donut. and I certainly didn't mean it the same either.
Yes, exactly.
I think a lot of the time when people say they are "addicted" and ask for advice what they are actually saying is they feel powerless or do not know how to control themselves in the face of an intense desire, compulsion or craving to eat.
Do they really need to know why that is to be successful in reprogramming detrimental behaviour? Sure it could be useful but what is far more valuable, and far more lacking on these forums, is actual methods and strategies to implement the how irrespective of the why apart from advice like trying self control or willpower which I suspect most people have considered before asking for advice...
Yes, this is what I am trying to figure out in my mind - is it actually worth bothering with and will it make any difference?
Forum posts for me are in the main about conversation and in matters such as this is talk just really cheap?
Yes, fair point.
Maybe the best thing to do is outline a number of possibilities it may be to head the person in somewhat the right direction and hope they find the right solution for themselves.
That doesn't do much to cater to my MFP Messiah Complex but I am sure I will get over it...
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
When someone says they crave certain foods, others start in with the "You're not addicted!" thing.Sometimes a craving really is a craving. One day the science will support it. They will give it a name. Then people who don't believe it will be able to google it...or as so many people like to call it, "research" it...and will be able to believe it.
I'm not sure what the term 'craving' has to do with the topic at hand, which is whether or not food addiction exists. The two are completely separate.
Nope, never happens.
People say "I don't believe it's an addiction" when others post "I'm addicted to carbs" and get responses like "yes, carb addiction is worse than heroin addiction."
The heck it doesn't. I will be linking you to it in the future.
I don't just think it happens, it totally happens. People even diagnose eating disorders because of it, lol.
If someone says they have a compulsion to eat certain foods and they are unable to consistently control their behavior, an eating disorder could be involved.0 -
Debating about the word craving has no bearing on this thread. It is the equivalent of saying that everyone who gets horny are addicted to sex.0
This discussion has been closed.
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