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Food Addiction - A Different Perspective
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And we're back!0
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Where did this thread go??0
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Heroin is an opiate. It does not act on dopamine pathways, it acts on opiate pathways.Very excellent OP. This highlights what has become my view on it as well - that it is behavioral not physical.
Yes, sugar "lights" up dopamine pathways the same way that heroin does, but it does not co-opt those pathways and encourage your body to stop making it's own dopamine because it is already getting it via the heroin (but not really), which is why heroin addicts actually need to detox. Their bodies need to start making their own dopamine again. When people eat sugar, the same pathways light up, but because it's yummy and you're doing something to continue living; it is encouragement to survival.
The "What difference does it make?" question to me is treatment options. I think for many, many people who go the restriction route without professional help are going to end up in a cycle of restrict-eat-guilt-binge-restrict because they are not addressing the underlying psychological problems, as the OP suggests. Rather, the way to combat addiction is abstaining from the substance. So, giving it a proper name, I believe, is important.
Cocaine affects dopamine. It also affects serotonin. It even affects norepinephrine. It acts as a reuptake inhibitor for all three and prevents the system It hits the trifecta of chemistry related to depression.
Anticipation of food raises dopamine. Consumption raises serotonin to clear dopamine and end hunger behavior.0 -
Your experience is you felt you kept craving white pasta after eating it, so you stopped eating it, and lost weight. That is your experience, and no one can tell you that it is wrong.
Disagree. It is the food. I quit the white pasta because if I ate it, I craved more. NB: I didn't eat more. I craved more.PeachyCarol wrote: »As far as I know, no one has ever started a "Help!!! I crave _________" thread, so bringing up the issue of craving, or appealing to it in the context of this thread is sort of besides the point.
No one argues that people get urges for different foods at different times, and most people don't tend to find them problematic, either. I certainly never thought my pregnancy cravings were problems. Unless you count craving cantaloupe in the dead of winter a problem. Because it was. Couldn't find it anywhere.
Again, to reiterate, the point is science does not support the notion that IN HUMANS the substance is the problem. The problem is the behavior behind the substance. The key to breaking the bad behavior pattern with the substance is understanding what lead to it.
Unfortunately for a lot of people who think the problem is the food itself, they have to do a lot of hard thinking to analyze WHY their eating is out of control to begin to address it.
The craving was annoying, so I quit it. Plus, whole wheat pasta is healthier, so good on that.
The craving wouldn't go away until I'd had a good night's sleep. It was when I began reading here that I found others had the same issue.
It's a thing. It's real. It might not happen to everyone, but it happens.
If this is unrelated to the whole "You're not addicted!", though, I'll be happy to drop it.
Very cute, with the THINKING. Lol.
I don't think I have an emotional connection to pasta, lol. No. I just noticed that when I had it, I wanted more. All day. I didn't look for it. I noticed it after it happened.
Since I didn't eat more, I'll vote No on hedonistic behavior, too.
As I said, I didn't overeat the pasta. I craved it. Others have had the same response. We crave it only if we eat it, though. Not before. Comes after. Do you THINK there might be some connection there? Even if you cannot google...I mean "research" it and find a name for it...when you THINK, do you notice a connection?
You've added to it that there exists some kind of biological phenomenon independent of your mind that controls this. That is your proposed mechanism. No one has any obligation to accept your explanation of causation without actual experimental research establishing a double-blind effect, and usually, a causative mechanism.
The idea that you were aware of the craving, and yet it persisted, does not mean it can't be behavioral in nature. Humans are intimately aware that things can elicit emotions, but still be helpless to stop those emotions in the moment. For example, people are perfectly aware of grief as an emotion, and no one would choose to be grieving, but none the less, people do grieve when they have a loss.
What you're describing is actually very much in line with classical conditioning, followed by post hoc rationalization of it.0 -
Heroin is an opiate. It does not act on dopamine pathways, it acts on opiate pathways.Very excellent OP. This highlights what has become my view on it as well - that it is behavioral not physical.
Yes, sugar "lights" up dopamine pathways the same way that heroin does, but it does not co-opt those pathways and encourage your body to stop making it's own dopamine because it is already getting it via the heroin (but not really), which is why heroin addicts actually need to detox. Their bodies need to start making their own dopamine again. When people eat sugar, the same pathways light up, but because it's yummy and you're doing something to continue living; it is encouragement to survival.
The "What difference does it make?" question to me is treatment options. I think for many, many people who go the restriction route without professional help are going to end up in a cycle of restrict-eat-guilt-binge-restrict because they are not addressing the underlying psychological problems, as the OP suggests. Rather, the way to combat addiction is abstaining from the substance. So, giving it a proper name, I believe, is important.
Cocaine affects dopamine. It also affects serotonin. It even affects norepinephrine. It acts as a reuptake inhibitor for all three and prevents the system It hits the trifecta of chemistry related to depression.
Anticipation of food raises dopamine. Consumption raises serotonin to clear dopamine and end hunger behavior.
Yes, you are correct. I got my addictive substances messed up. It's been awhile since I was studying these things.
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Really? I thought once you study it once, you can find it nearly impossible to stop...
Heroin is an opiate. It does not act on dopamine pathways, it acts on opiate pathways.Very excellent OP. This highlights what has become my view on it as well - that it is behavioral not physical.
Yes, sugar "lights" up dopamine pathways the same way that heroin does, but it does not co-opt those pathways and encourage your body to stop making it's own dopamine because it is already getting it via the heroin (but not really), which is why heroin addicts actually need to detox. Their bodies need to start making their own dopamine again. When people eat sugar, the same pathways light up, but because it's yummy and you're doing something to continue living; it is encouragement to survival.
The "What difference does it make?" question to me is treatment options. I think for many, many people who go the restriction route without professional help are going to end up in a cycle of restrict-eat-guilt-binge-restrict because they are not addressing the underlying psychological problems, as the OP suggests. Rather, the way to combat addiction is abstaining from the substance. So, giving it a proper name, I believe, is important.
Cocaine affects dopamine. It also affects serotonin. It even affects norepinephrine. It acts as a reuptake inhibitor for all three and prevents the system It hits the trifecta of chemistry related to depression.
Anticipation of food raises dopamine. Consumption raises serotonin to clear dopamine and end hunger behavior.
Yes, you are correct. I got my addictive substances messed up. It's been awhile since I was studying these things.
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PeachyCarol wrote: »What words could we give to people who say, "Help, I'm addicted to sugar!" to help them? Instead of just telling them, no, you're not addicted?
Good questions.
I think if it was me, I'd be comforted to know I'm not physically addicted.
People should understand how their mind plays tricks on them.
My two favourite sayings are:
"Challenge your thoughts"
and
"Don't believe everything you think".
Good advice in any situation, not just when it comes to food preferences.
I'd recommend, if you can, finding something the person has self-control over, and encourage them to realise they do have that power.
Let them know there is nothing magical or evil about that particular food. You just have a belief you need to adjust.
We all have things we once believed and then changed our mind about.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
I don't feel out of control around pasta. You're missing the point. I specifically said that I don't overeat it and don't have an emotional whatever for pasta. It's not even one of my favorite foods. There is a physical response that causes a craving.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You keep jumping from "may be the case" to "is the case"PeachyCarol wrote: »
I don't think I am derailing. The cravings go hand-in-hand with the addiction.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Very cute, with the THINKING. Lol.PeachyCarol wrote: »
Disagree. It is the food. I quit the white pasta because if I ate it, I craved more. NB: I didn't eat more. I craved more.PeachyCarol wrote: »As far as I know, no one has ever started a "Help!!! I crave _________" thread, so bringing up the issue of craving, or appealing to it in the context of this thread is sort of besides the point.
No one argues that people get urges for different foods at different times, and most people don't tend to find them problematic, either. I certainly never thought my pregnancy cravings were problems. Unless you count craving cantaloupe in the dead of winter a problem. Because it was. Couldn't find it anywhere.
Again, to reiterate, the point is science does not support the notion that IN HUMANS the substance is the problem. The problem is the behavior behind the substance. The key to breaking the bad behavior pattern with the substance is understanding what lead to it.
Unfortunately for a lot of people who think the problem is the food itself, they have to do a lot of hard thinking to analyze WHY their eating is out of control to begin to address it.
The craving was annoying, so I quit it. Plus, whole wheat pasta is healthier, so good on that.
The craving wouldn't go away until I'd had a good night's sleep. It was when I began reading here that I found others had the same issue.
It's a thing. It's real. It might not happen to everyone, but it happens.
If this is unrelated to the whole "You're not addicted!", though, I'll be happy to drop it.
You can disagree until the cows come home, but the scientific EVIDENCE does not support your FEELINGS.
White pasta and whole wheat pasta have the same blood sugar impact. (GI/GL)
But yes, this is unrelated, unless you are willing to admit that you might have had some possible hedonic response to the white pasta which triggered an emotional connection or something deeper, it's probably best to drop it. As I said, this requires THINKING.
I don't think I have an emotional connection to pasta, lol. No. I just noticed that when I had it, I wanted more. All day. I didn't look for it. I noticed it after it happened.
Since I didn't eat more, I'll vote No on hedonistic behavior, too.
As I said, I didn't overeat the pasta. I craved it. Others have had the same response. We crave it only if we eat it, though. Not before. Comes after. Do you THINK there might be some connection there? Even if you cannot google...I mean "research" it and find a name for it...when you THINK, do you notice a connection?
Hedonic response isn't hedonistic behavior.
Google it. It's about enjoying taste or texture or some other sensory input.
I capitalized the word thinking to stress the importance of it in the process, not to mock you.
If you do not wish to delve further into your behavior, then yes, you're derailing the thread.
You aren't suggesting that the cravings aren't real, are you? I'm sure you aren't.
So, when you connect the craving to having eaten a food and you THINK about it, do you see a connection?
There is no addiction to a food substance. It does not exist.
I said I was not mocking you, please stop mocking me.
I was stressing the importance of thinking as part of the process of digging to the root of behavioral issues.
If you want to discuss the topic at hand, since you keep asserting that addiction to substance exists, you should provide more than your "craving" for evidence.
Ample proof has been shown here that no such scientific support for any claims of substantive addiction to any food exist in humans.
Craving =/= addiction.
Were I to mock you, I'd do a much, much better job. It wouldn't even "require THINKING."
It seems that you are not going to address the possibility that people might have an actual problem and will continue to insist that they cannot possibly have any sort of physical response to food. If you "THINK" about it, one day you may find that at least some of these people do have a physical reaction. You might not believe it until others have figured it out and given it a name you can google, but one day, you'll find out that it exists.
Scientific minds consider possibilities, by the way. That's how they "THINK."
When you understand that people really do have a physical reaction that causes a craving, then you'll begin to have some idea how you might be able to say something nice and helpful...or give them the Brutal Truth, if you're a fan of brutality.
Until then, the only people who might be helped are people who are overeating because their emotions were tied up in food. And it's highly unlikely that even someone who is qualified to help would be able to do it online. So, all we can do is give some encouragement...or brutality, depending on what the person thinks is helpful. We aren't going to solve anyone's issues online.
Please, please stop trying to derail an awesome thread that's miraculously made it six pages.
Bringing up the idea that some people actually have a real, physical issue is not derailing. It's addressing the topic.
You have yet to provide any evidence of your position, so yes, it is derailing. Carol has given research indicating that the food substance itself is not addictive in humans, rather it is the behavior that one can become addicted to in the same way that gambling and sex are considered addictions - actual research not "research."
Because you feel out of control around pasta isn't evidence of anything besides you feel out of control around pasta, and that's why people are telling you you're derailing the thread.
People have even been so kind to point you in the research direction that cravings and addictions are not the same thing, but you dismissed them out of hand. This begs the question, where is the research of your position? If you don't have it, please stop. This is a good thread.
It's not just me, either. Other posters have said the same thing. If they eat it, they crave more. It's a physical response.
I think this is exactly what many people are describing when they say they are "addicted."
I will stop posting. Pretending that we are "out of control" around food won't help you address the actual issue, though. You'll be addressing an issue that doesn't exist.
I don't think the name for it exists yet, so you won't find it. Yet. The scientifically-minded people will consider the idea that it exists even though it doesn't have a name yet.
...and I'm out.
What about those that don't? I have zero reaction to pasta. I do, however, experience what you are talking about with pickles. I don't particularly crave them or overeat them, but when I have them I feel the desire to keep coming back for more. So the addictive substance makes some people addicted but not others? And what's the nutritional difference between whole wheat and white pasta? If you add wheat bran to your white pasta, making it nearly identical to whole wheat, would you still have this reaction? You really don't need to have an emotional attachment of some sort. It could be that for whatever reason in the past you got used to coming back for more white pasta, and the habit just stuck.
To say food does not affect people physically is not entirely accurate. It does. For example I'm currently attempting to quit smoking and I feel that I'm gravitating strongly towards dark chocolate which is very unusual for me, the darker the better (just had a couple of 90% squares). This piqued my curiosity and reading more it appears to be a mild stimulant of certain neurotransmitters that smoking affects as well. Now does this mean addiction? No it doesn't. Physical response =/= physical dependency, even if it mimics an addictive substance. People have a physical response to nice smelling shower gels, to a fresh breeze, to a smiling baby... Does that mean they are addicted and physically dependent on shower gels, breezes and babies? That's why what you are describing is outside the scope of this topic.
Craving (whether for physical or emotional reasons) is not the same as being exposed to a substance that causes physical dependency and a clear well-defined withdrawal process.
Right. There are physical responses, but the deep, visceral reaction is most psychological. I wasn't attempting to deny a necessarily physical component to the nature of craving. We break down and digest food, dopamine is an anticipatory pleasure receptor and things like that, BUT... the mind controls the connection, the thought behind THIS FOOD = THIS RESPONSE, even if it's on a subconscious level.
I have a busy day today, but would like to do some further research into the science and difference between craving and addiction, because I think a lot of people confuse the two.0 -
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That's part of what this thread is meant to address (I think - Carol can correct me if I'm wrong about that). Simply over-applying the label of addiction to a very wide range of behaviors actually does a disservice to the people suffering because of those behaviors. Being willing to take a closer look at those behaviors and define them more accurately can lead to more effective strategies and interventions.
Out of curiosity (and because you seem to know what you are talking about mostly) if you came across someone on the forums who claimed to be addicted to food what kind of questions would you ask them to elicit what the root cause of their issues were?
In addition, do you think there is generally a more preferable way of presenting or approaching this information which influences behaviour better than other approaches or is it really a "it depends" question?
I'll gladly discuss that with you via PM if you are interested, but I don't think it's a good idea to try it here. I don't believe you have to be a 'professional' to invite people to think through their impulses, cravings, and gut-level experiences (almost 70 years - and longer if you count A.A. - of experience among members of peer support groups for virtually any issue is proof of that), but considering how to approach it in this thread doesn't strike me as a discussion that will end up in a good place.
I want to be respectful of your question, but I am already regretting becoming as involved in this thread as I have been so far. I was so glad to see PeachyCarol's very thoughtful post, though, that it was pretty irresistible (omg an uncontrollable urge! JUST KIDDING).
I'm newish here, but to be blunt, my experience on these boards to date has shown me that I'm not a great fit for this community. There's nothing wrong with me or with the community - it's simply a reality that not every community can be a good fit for every individual! But constantly having to using a 'walk on eggshells' communication style here has worn me down, so I look elsewhere for support and dialogue. I don't want to pull this thread off-topic, and even if my involvement here is increasingly limited I'd rather not get labeled as a troll or whatever. So shoot me a PM if you like, and in the meantime I think I'll go back to lurker mode.
Much appreciation for the discussion so far!
Many thanks for your response and no worries about not wanting to discuss it on the open board. That's perfectly understandable and you are right that it has the potential to derail what is a useful thread.
I would hope you reconsider lurk mode though. Often when people debate well (ok, that may involve a little shouting at one and other at times...) it brings out perspectives I have not considered myself as an observer. Who wants to constantly talk into an echo chamber?
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Good post OP. And for all of the arguments we have in other threads, I am rather surprised there isn't more discussion or studies for the contrary.0
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Good post OP. And for all of the arguments we have in other threads, I am rather surprised there isn't more discussion or studies for the contrary.
Probably because OP's post demonstrated she has put a lot of time and thought into this, made sure she conveyed her opinions in a rational, logical, and neutral tone, and stressed that she was covering what she believes to be the salient points but she is open to hearing from others who may agree or disagree, with the ultimate goal of trying to help those people who truly believe they are "addicted to" food or a certain food.
I wish we had more threads like this but am curious why it was taken down for a while yesterday. I didn't see anything particularly contentious but I wasn't online for most of the afternoon so I don't know if things were removed by mods before it was reposted.
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WinoGelato wrote: »Good post OP. And for all of the arguments we have in other threads, I am rather surprised there isn't more discussion or studies for the contrary.
Probably because OP's post demonstrated she has put a lot of time and thought into this, made sure she conveyed her opinions in a rational, logical, and neutral tone, and stressed that she was covering what she believes to be the salient points but she is open to hearing from others who may agree or disagree, with the ultimate goal of trying to help those people who truly believe they are "addicted to" food or a certain food.
I wish we had more threads like this but am curious why it was taken down for a while yesterday. I didn't see anything particularly contentious but I wasn't online for most of the afternoon so I don't know if things were removed by mods before it was reposted.
Like many other threads, at times we have to take them off line to review them. And unfortunately, there is a lot of stuff that happens on the back end that we do to ensure rules are being followed. Also, we take them offline because it allows us to be able to conduct a thorough review without having to play catch up with 10 or more people posting at the same time.
Sorry to derail. Back on topic.
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I don't think I agree with any of you. Regarding and treating the problem as an addiction helped me. Identifying and understanding the nature of trigger foods and the way the affect me is important. Avoiding them as much as possible is good for me.
We need to know what we are talking about. Maybe it isn't the fat, or the sugar, or the responses in the body. Maybe it's the taste. The hyperpalatable foods. The man-made foods. Those that taste more and nourish less. Addiction to certain foods really do have some traits with drug addictions, but not all, in common. The consequences will be different, too. Nobody will sell their grandmother for a cupcake - you can get cupcakes everywhere, either free, or for a few cents. But you will gain weight, and you may destroy your health. I was malnourished and have suffered some permanent damage that I'm too ashamed to even talk about anonymously.
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
I would overeat, I would eat until there was nothing left, I would buy more, I would pass up breakfast, lunch and dinner, I would hide and avoid company so I could eat more, I would spread out my purchases and buy random stuff with it because I was ashamed. Is that addiction, or compulsion, or just a bad habit? Emotional eating? Lack of willpower? Don't know. I don't know if it's important what you call it, but the way you treat it, is important. I can handle five minutes of temptation in the checkout-line, but 24/7 in my house, I can not.
I like the taste of hyperpalatable foods - obviously. I like it too much. Ordinary food tasted like nothing, because my tastebuds were conditioned to the strong flavors of hyperpalatable food. The only alternative used to be the opposite - diet food, hypopalatable food. I would overeat that too, though, trying to find satisfaction. But then I decided that fat wasn't dangerous or fattening - eureka! I just needed to eat food I like that I can eat to satiety. As long as I choose real food (and everybody knows what that means, we just like to argue for the argument's sake), I can eat what I like, and how much I like. Because my appetite will guide me to what I need, and satiety kicks in when I have had enough nutrients. I didn't realise this until this spring. I'm 45 now. There is still a lot to learn.
Ask yourself or anyone else, "why do you eat"? The rational answer is "to fuel and restore my body". The irrational answer is "because it tastes good and I'm hungry". You can want to be rational, but lasting motivation depends on the irrational parts of the brain cooperating. Taste trumps health 9 out of 10 times. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to choose between health and taste?
Check out Mark Schatzker's new book, "The Dorito Effect", where he describes how hyperpalatable foods have become more and more tasty, and ordinary food more and more bland, leading us to overeat.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Good post OP. And for all of the arguments we have in other threads, I am rather surprised there isn't more discussion or studies for the contrary.
Probably because OP's post demonstrated she has put a lot of time and thought into this, made sure she conveyed her opinions in a rational, logical, and neutral tone, and stressed that she was covering what she believes to be the salient points but she is open to hearing from others who may agree or disagree, with the ultimate goal of trying to help those people who truly believe they are "addicted to" food or a certain food.
I wish we had more threads like this but am curious why it was taken down for a while yesterday. I didn't see anything particularly contentious but I wasn't online for most of the afternoon so I don't know if things were removed by mods before it was reposted.
Like many other threads, at times we have to take them off line to review them. And unfortunately, there is a lot of stuff that happens on the back end that we do to ensure rules are being followed. Also, we take them offline because it allows us to be able to conduct a thorough review without having to play catch up with 10 or more people posting at the same time.
Sorry to derail. Back on topic.
Thanks for the response. That's fair. I was just glad to see it back last night.
Ok, back to it!
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I do think that sounds like some kind of disorder, kommodevaran. Closer to addiction than what most are talking about, but also not in that it's focused on the taste of the food and its effect on your palate, not the chemical properties of the food. I'd compare it with alcoholism where sure most people have a drink of choice, but it's not like one over drinks because it's just so tasty, and when it comes down to it you may end up drinking something you dislike for the effect or just to keep drinking.
I also always am puzzled by the hyper palatable thing being equated with man made foods, or whatever, since to me most of the highly processed stuff you are talking about isn't even tasty by comparison with more traditional options. A Twinkie vs homemade cookies? IMO, twinkies are disgusting. McDonald's vs a well cooked ribeye? I'd think many would prefer the ribeye. I think the main reason convenience foods and store bought treats can be an issue is not that they are more tasty, but that they are currently super cheap and take no time to acquire, so can be eaten without effort or planning, mindlessly.
That's why for the overall problem of overeating I think it's about habit and environment.
I will go back to Caitwn's post above and say I also think there are exceptions and perhaps that was you. But that doesn't make it about the food rather than eating--most people will be too specific in their triggers to say it's the food.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I do think that sounds like some kind of disorder, kommodevaran. Closer to addiction than what most are talking about, but also not in that it's focused on the taste of the food and its effect on your palate, not the chemical properties of the food. I'd compare it with alcoholism where sure most people have a drink of choice, but it's not like one over drinks because it's just so tasty, and when it comes down to it you may end up drinking something you dislike for the effect or just to keep drinking.
I also always am puzzled by the hyper palatable thing being equated with man made foods, or whatever, since to me most of the highly processed stuff you are talking about isn't even tasty by comparison with more traditional options. A Twinkie vs homemade cookies? IMO, twinkies are disgusting. McDonald's vs a well cooked ribeye? I'd think many would prefer the ribeye. I think the main reason convenience foods and store bought treats can be an issue is not that they are more tasty, but that they are currently super cheap and take no time to acquire, so can be eaten without effort or planning, mindlessly.
That's why for the overall problem of overeating I think it's about habit and environment.
I will go back to Caitwn's post above and say I also think there are exceptions and perhaps that was you. But that doesn't make it about the food rather than eating--most people will be too specific in their triggers to say it's the food.
Yes, I have come to realize that my trigger foods are more diverse than most people's. As an outlier I can be both more and less interesting for the debate
You pinpointed some quirks that I can't really explain. I like "junk" a lot, but I will also (when not concoiusly restricting myself) eat too much of junk that I don't really like. Most chips sold here in Norway, for instance, doesn't taste like it used to, too salty, and the strange new oil makes the texture all wrong - but I would eat and eat and it, until the bag was empty. I do prefer homemade cookies, but I would normally eat storebought. I would have eaten good home cooked food, but my taste buds were warped - and to complicate it, as I said, I believed that fat had to be avoided. So I tried to avoid fat, but caved, and crashed, hard. Maybe also the cost, financially, but mostly mentally, stopped me from eating the more natural food? Not just the physical accessibility of store bought, or the price tag, but the mental hurdles in making something myself? Does the concious adding of sugar and fat to my home cooked meals and treats make the ingredients more visible? Getting something from the store hides what's really in it. At least I can pretend I don't know.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »
mentally dependent could0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »I don't think I agree with any of you. Regarding and treating the problem as an addiction helped me. Identifying and understanding the nature of trigger foods and the way the affect me is important. Avoiding them as much as possible is good for me.
We need to know what we are talking about. Maybe it isn't the fat, or the sugar, or the responses in the body. Maybe it's the taste. The hyperpalatable foods. The man-made foods. Those that taste more and nourish less. Addiction to certain foods really do have some traits with drug addictions, but not all, in common. The consequences will be different, too. Nobody will sell their grandmother for a cupcake - you can get cupcakes everywhere, either free, or for a few cents. But you will gain weight, and you may destroy your health. I was malnourished and have suffered some permanent damage that I'm too ashamed to even talk about anonymously.
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
I would overeat, I would eat until there was nothing left, I would buy more, I would pass up breakfast, lunch and dinner, I would hide and avoid company so I could eat more, I would spread out my purchases and buy random stuff with it because I was ashamed. Is that addiction, or compulsion, or just a bad habit? Emotional eating? Lack of willpower? Don't know. I don't know if it's important what you call it, but the way you treat it, is important. I can handle five minutes of temptation in the checkout-line, but 24/7 in my house, I can not.
I like the taste of hyperpalatable foods - obviously. I like it too much. Ordinary food tasted like nothing, because my tastebuds were conditioned to the strong flavors of hyperpalatable food. The only alternative used to be the opposite - diet food, hypopalatable food. I would overeat that too, though, trying to find satisfaction. But then I decided that fat wasn't dangerous or fattening - eureka! I just needed to eat food I like that I can eat to satiety. As long as I choose real food (and everybody knows what that means, we just like to argue for the argument's sake), I can eat what I like, and how much I like. Because my appetite will guide me to what I need, and satiety kicks in when I have had enough nutrients. I didn't realise this until this spring. I'm 45 now. There is still a lot to learn.
Ask yourself or anyone else, "why do you eat"? The rational answer is "to fuel and restore my body". The irrational answer is "because it tastes good and I'm hungry". You can want to be rational, but lasting motivation depends on the irrational parts of the brain cooperating. Taste trumps health 9 out of 10 times. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to choose between health and taste?
Check out Mark Schatzker's new book, "The Dorito Effect", where he describes how hyperpalatable foods have become more and more tasty, and ordinary food more and more bland, leading us to overeat.
and this is what some of us have been trying to say0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »I
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
This was your personal experience, and I'd say this makes you an outlier. Most people who quit nicotine do experience withdrawal symptoms. Depending on the level of use, there can be headaches, nausea, dizziness, perspiration, loss of appetite, shaking, brain fog and a myriad of other potential symptoms. Quitting smoking was easier for you than it was for others, but that doesn't mean that nicotine is easy to quit for everyone. For most people, it's extraordinarily difficult, and the relapse rate is very high.
When it comes to food, it can't really be compared. People can't be asked to quit eating. Food is necessary to life. It may be possible to ask them to stop eating certain types of food, but it's actually much healthier to help people develop a healthy relationship with food so that avoidance isn't necessary in the first place.
And as far as hyperpalatable vs. whole foods? I know people who are obese and eat steak and potatoes to stay that way. They aren't sweets eaters or store bought food eaters at all. They're farmers. They claim they can't help eating mass quantities of steak. Is that an addiction? I'd argue no, in the same way I'd argue that a person isn't addiction to a cupcake or Doritos. It's never the food.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I do think that sounds like some kind of disorder, kommodevaran. Closer to addiction than what most are talking about, but also not in that it's focused on the taste of the food and its effect on your palate, not the chemical properties of the food. I'd compare it with alcoholism where sure most people have a drink of choice, but it's not like one over drinks because it's just so tasty, and when it comes down to it you may end up drinking something you dislike for the effect or just to keep drinking.
I also always am puzzled by the hyper palatable thing being equated with man made foods, or whatever, since to me most of the highly processed stuff you are talking about isn't even tasty by comparison with more traditional options. A Twinkie vs homemade cookies? IMO, twinkies are disgusting. McDonald's vs a well cooked ribeye? I'd think many would prefer the ribeye. I think the main reason convenience foods and store bought treats can be an issue is not that they are more tasty, but that they are currently super cheap and take no time to acquire, so can be eaten without effort or planning, mindlessly.
That's why for the overall problem of overeating I think it's about habit and environment.
I will go back to Caitwn's post above and say I also think there are exceptions and perhaps that was you. But that doesn't make it about the food rather than eating--most people will be too specific in their triggers to say it's the food.
I wonder if this is due to "laziness". I know that binging is different, but I will binge on whatever I have around the house that was easy so that I could shove it into my mouth quickly. I might have had the ingredients to make cookies, but there was no way that I was going to look up a recipe, measure out ingredients and wait for cookies to bake. But, if I had a box of something? Gone.
Of course, avoidance didn't really work for me because I would just binge on really strange things. Four cans of corn with stir fry sauce? Yup, it's what was in the pantry. The closest I came was when I was really bad and feared bringing much of anything into the house, and so I did make rice and waited the 15 minutes for that, but I wanted something sweet, so I mixed it with cinnamon and sugar. It was not tasty; I definitely don't recommend it (although perhaps it would have been better with butter...).
Anyways, I know binging is a little different, but I definitely have issues with controlling myself around hyper palatable foods no matter the source; I'm just more likely to run to the store and buy candy or cookies than attempt to make anything at home when the cravings hit hardcore. And avoidance did nothing for me; my life actually kind of spiraled at that point, and I had anxiety about buying food and what I could and could not keep around the house.
It's been a long road since then, but I'm far from perfect. I've had 4 pints of ice cream in the freezer for a few weeks and I'll occasionally have a serving if it fits in my calories (excited because tonight should be one of those nights). And some weeks I can have ice cream every night. But, I buy a pack of oreos, yeah, I never eat just one serving. Seriously? Two cookies? Ugh. I usually only buy them when we go hang out with friends so that I can share with others and spread the calories around. :laugh:0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »I
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
This was your personal experience, and I'd say this makes you an outlier. Most people who quit nicotine do experience withdrawal symptoms. Depending on the level of use, there can be headaches, nausea, dizziness, perspiration, loss of appetite, shaking, brain fog and a myriad of other potential symptoms. Quitting smoking was easier for you than it was for others, but that doesn't mean that nicotine is easy to quit for everyone. For most people, it's extraordinarily difficult, and the relapse rate is very high.
When it comes to food, it can't really be compared. People can't be asked to quit eating. Food is necessary to life. It may be possible to ask them to stop eating certain types of food, but it's actually much healthier to help people develop a healthy relationship with food so that avoidance isn't necessary in the first place.
And as far as hyperpalatable vs. whole foods? I know people who are obese and eat steak and potatoes to stay that way. They aren't sweets eaters or store bought food eaters at all. They're farmers. They claim they can't help eating mass quantities of steak. Is that an addiction? I'd argue no, in the same way I'd argue that a person isn't addiction to a cupcake or Doritos. It's never the food.
Maybe I am a special snowflake I react atypically to a lot of stuff. Sugar never gives me that high/energy boost that I read about. It tastes good, but I get tired immidiately, it often makes me (want to) lie down, and sleep. I don't feel relaxed and sociable from alcohol, it doesn't even make it easier to sleep, I just get dizzy and feel heavy, my memory fails and my mind slows down. I don't like it, it makes me feel more insecure around others. The only "normal" reaction I've had with alcohol, was with way too much once or twice when I was young, when I blacked out, did things I didn't want to, and passed out. Coffee has no effect on me either. I will get a high from pethidine, though, and I am energized and giggly when I wake from general anesthesia. I consumed around 20 cigarettes a day, for 10-12 years. I have to accept thet quitting can be painful for others, but for me it was just a bad habit. 0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
This was your personal experience, and I'd say this makes you an outlier. Most people who quit nicotine do experience withdrawal symptoms. Depending on the level of use, there can be headaches, nausea, dizziness, perspiration, loss of appetite, shaking, brain fog and a myriad of other potential symptoms. Quitting smoking was easier for you than it was for others, but that doesn't mean that nicotine is easy to quit for everyone. For most people, it's extraordinarily difficult, and the relapse rate is very high.
When it comes to food, it can't really be compared. People can't be asked to quit eating. Food is necessary to life. It may be possible to ask them to stop eating certain types of food, but it's actually much healthier to help people develop a healthy relationship with food so that avoidance isn't necessary in the first place.
And as far as hyperpalatable vs. whole foods? I know people who are obese and eat steak and potatoes to stay that way. They aren't sweets eaters or store bought food eaters at all. They're farmers. They claim they can't help eating mass quantities of steak. Is that an addiction? I'd argue no, in the same way I'd argue that a person isn't addiction to a cupcake or Doritos. It's never the food.
Maybe I am a special snowflake I react atypically to a lot of stuff. Sugar never gives me that high/energy boost that I read about. It tastes good, but I get tired immidiately, it often makes me (want to) lie down, and sleep. I don't feel relaxed and sociable from alcohol, it doesn't even make it easier to sleep, I just get dizzy and feel heavy, my memory fails and my mind slows down. I don't like it, it makes me feel more insecure around others. The only "normal" reaction I've had with alcohol, was with way too much once or twice when I was young, when I blacked out, did things I didn't want to, and passed out. Coffee has no effect on me either. I will get a high from pethidine, though, and I am energized and giggly when I wake from general anesthesia. I consumed around 20 cigarettes a day, for 10-12 years. I have to accept thet quitting can be painful for others, but for me it was just a bad habit.
You are an outlier if you had no nicotine withdrawal symptoms, I am too - but in the opposite direction. Most nicotine physical withdrawal symptoms are tolerable, but I almost needed to be hospitalized when I attempted to quit smoking cold turkey. I'm currently on the patch and it's a breeze in comparison. I guess the jump from 2+ packs a day to 0 is just too steep to be done in one step.
Speaking of smoking. The closest I may meet in the middle in terms of classifying food as an addiction is the cravings you get for a cigarettes at certain times, like after a meal or with coffee..etc. Although caused by quitting smoking, I don't consider them a direct result of this addiction, but a bunch of habitual associations a person has made throughout their smoking years. So in that sense, food "addiction" can have similar representations to real addictions, but that doesn't make it one. Regarding it as such leads to creating a disease model rather than a responsibility model.0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I
The withdrawal symptoms are not the same as for alcohol and drugs. But there are none for nicotine, either. I quit smoking nine years ago, and quitting smoking was way easier than quitting candy, chips, cookies. I don't get jittery thinking about cigarettes. But I do when I think about candy, chips, cookies.
This was your personal experience, and I'd say this makes you an outlier. Most people who quit nicotine do experience withdrawal symptoms. Depending on the level of use, there can be headaches, nausea, dizziness, perspiration, loss of appetite, shaking, brain fog and a myriad of other potential symptoms. Quitting smoking was easier for you than it was for others, but that doesn't mean that nicotine is easy to quit for everyone. For most people, it's extraordinarily difficult, and the relapse rate is very high.
When it comes to food, it can't really be compared. People can't be asked to quit eating. Food is necessary to life. It may be possible to ask them to stop eating certain types of food, but it's actually much healthier to help people develop a healthy relationship with food so that avoidance isn't necessary in the first place.
And as far as hyperpalatable vs. whole foods? I know people who are obese and eat steak and potatoes to stay that way. They aren't sweets eaters or store bought food eaters at all. They're farmers. They claim they can't help eating mass quantities of steak. Is that an addiction? I'd argue no, in the same way I'd argue that a person isn't addiction to a cupcake or Doritos. It's never the food.
Maybe I am a special snowflake I react atypically to a lot of stuff. Sugar never gives me that high/energy boost that I read about. It tastes good, but I get tired immidiately, it often makes me (want to) lie down, and sleep. I don't feel relaxed and sociable from alcohol, it doesn't even make it easier to sleep, I just get dizzy and feel heavy, my memory fails and my mind slows down. I don't like it, it makes me feel more insecure around others. The only "normal" reaction I've had with alcohol, was with way too much once or twice when I was young, when I blacked out, did things I didn't want to, and passed out. Coffee has no effect on me either. I will get a high from pethidine, though, and I am energized and giggly when I wake from general anesthesia. I consumed around 20 cigarettes a day, for 10-12 years. I have to accept thet quitting can be painful for others, but for me it was just a bad habit.
Forgot to mention that I've even tried Ritalin and amphetamine for suspected narcolepsy and ADHD; i felt no effect from either. Efexor just made me not care, and I didn't react to cold, and going from dark to bright light was suddenly easy. I did however get those head zaps from quitting Efexor cold turkey.0 -
Anyways, I know binging is a little different, but I definitely have issues with controlling myself around hyper palatable foods no matter the source; I'm just more likely to run to the store and buy candy or cookies than attempt to make anything at home when the cravings hit hardcore. And avoidance did nothing for me; my life actually kind of spiraled at that point, and I had anxiety about buying food and what I could and could not keep around the house.
What you say about bingeing on strange things and it not being about the taste is why true bingeing (not the way it's sometimes casually used on MFP to mean just overeating) has always sounded more similar to addiction to me (as I said to shell upthread) than people who focus on the difficulties with specific foods. There's no reason why a cookie would have a different effect than a cupcake than a Twinkie, but it's clear people may have one of those as a trigger and others as irrelevant. That's got to be emotional/psychological. (What I'd call comfort eating or driven by taste preference.)
But on the other hand, when the act of eating, just eating, whatever it is, has some psychological effect so that it blots out emotion or satisfies some compulsion, even and often when you aren't hungry and aren't enjoying the taste of the food, that sounds like addiction to me. Maybe there's a reason to call it something different, but the way in which it operates seems similar. Of course, you can't stop eating, though, so the issue becomes figuring out how to not eat in that way--which seems an issue for therapy.
I don't know; I do find it interesting. I don't feel like addiction is that clear cut either.
I think there's a distinction between not being interested in moderating something vs. being addicted to it, though. I've mentioned that I love naan many times, and that's how I feel about it, and Indian food in general. I'd rather have it less often and not worry about calories than just order carefully and have half a piece of naan. But I don't think that's about addiction, it's just how I like to enjoy certain foods.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Anyways, I know binging is a little different, but I definitely have issues with controlling myself around hyper palatable foods no matter the source; I'm just more likely to run to the store and buy candy or cookies than attempt to make anything at home when the cravings hit hardcore. And avoidance did nothing for me; my life actually kind of spiraled at that point, and I had anxiety about buying food and what I could and could not keep around the house.
What you say about bingeing on strange things and it not being about the taste is why bingeing has always sounded more similar to addiction to be (as I said to shell upthread) than people who focus on the difficulties with specific foods. There's no reason why a cookie would have a different effect than a cupcake than a Twinkie, but it's clear people may have one of those as a trigger and others as irrelevant. That's got to be emotional/psychological. (What I'd call comfort eating or driven by taste preference.)
But on the other hand, when the act of eating, just eating, whatever it is, has some psychological effect so that it blots out emotion or satisfies some compulsion, even and often when you aren't hungry and aren't enjoying the taste of the food, that sounds like addiction to me. Maybe there's a reason to call it something different, but the way in which it operates seems similar. Of course, you can't stop eating, though, so the issue becomes figuring out how to not eat in that way--which seems an issue for therapy.
I don't know; I do find it interesting. I don't feel like addiction is that clear cut either.
I think there's a distinction between not being interested in moderating something vs. being addicted to it, though. I've mentioned that I love naan many times, and that's how I feel about it, and Indian food in general. I'd rather have it less often and not worry about calories than just order carefully and have half a piece of naan. But I don't think that's about addiction, it's just how I like to enjoy certain foods.
True, but then going back to typical "I'm addicted to x" threads, I've never actually see anyone say they eat something even though they don't like the taste. It's always x tastes so good and I can never stop. Nevermind the "I can't stop eating sugar so I'm going to cut out all sugar and only eat fruit". Those truly seem to be about hyperpalatable foods, which is why substituting sugar in one form for sugar in another form works. It has nothing to do with the sugar; it's the "package" the food comes in; the flavor, mouth feel, fats and other goodies the sugar is suspended in.
But regardless, I do feel like my mentality switched once someone pointed out that I'm letting my binges take control. I had to be the one to stop them. Yes, it seems dumb. I feel like by far, the biggest obstacle to weight loss and most behavioral changes is our mind. Realizing we do have the power to change really feels like the first step to me.0 -
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What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)0
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My interpretation of some of the results is that trying to do the typical addiction treatment of total, lifelong withdrawal of substance might be the worst thing someone can do with a food they think is addictive. The dopamine lighting up that people call drug like tends to be highest for novel stimulus, so denying yourself for extended times is liable to make food cravings worse, not better.vivmom2014 wrote: »What about helping/advising people? Positive self talk was mentioned, and I think it's really undervalued. (If you can get Stuart Smalley out of your head, ha.)
Similarly, avoid any turning food into a reward kind of experience. Decoupling the two makes food only desirable as food, not as a way of capturing certain feelings.0
This discussion has been closed.
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